Tournament V Cash

Fatboydim · 06-08-2007 05:30PM #1

Ok I'll admit it... I'm not a very good cash player. Hey I'm probably not a very good tourney player either... But if I'm asked I'll always say I'm better at Tourney's than cash.

So I thought I'd start a thread about Cash play versus tourney play. For the sake of argument Tourney play here means deep stack, long clock, expensive buy in.

For example is middle pair on the flop stronger when playing cash than in tournament play?

Four flushing - push on the flop? Guy goes all in in front of you call or fold.
[In a tourney I fold if the player all in has 50% of my stack - unless we are both monster stacks and calling and losing keeps me above average stack]

What are the common mistakes tourney players make when moving to cash?

Should you play even tighter?

Lets get some tips from those who know what they're doing.

valor · 06-08-2007 05:38PM

For Joe : Suited connectors are better in cash games

ocallagh · 06-08-2007 05:54PM

The main difference between tournaments and cash games is the average amount of BBs.

If the amount of BBs is the same, then there is really very little difference IMO. You might get a bit more folding equity in a tournament because people put a value on their tournament life, so shoving with draws or bluffing might be slightly better in a tournament.

You will notice in big buy in tournaments, with decent players, the first few levels play very similar to a cash game.

Fatboydim · 06-08-2007 06:03PM

You will notice in big buy in tournaments, with decent players, the first few levels play very similar to a cash game.

Do you know Niall - That is the best bit of advice. You're so right there now that I think of it.:D

zuutroy · 06-08-2007 06:28PM

I much prefer tournaments from a competition point of view. There's a definite goal and an end. Cash games for me are just grinding out money. I think I'm way better at tournament play, especially when M's are around 10 and below.

rag2gar · 06-08-2007 07:07PM

This is an interesting topic. I find the two variables very different and not sure which I prefer. They both have their merits but to me there is more luck I feel in any one given online tournament than in a similar sitting playing online cash. Perhaps Im wrong, thats just what i think

LuckyLloyd · 06-08-2007 07:17PM

This post has been deleted.

zuutroy · 06-08-2007 07:23PM

Yeah, but if you look at the big picture you can have as good an hourly rate from tournaments if you're a good player.

ianmc38 · 06-08-2007 07:51PM

zuutroy wrote:

Yeah, but if you look at the big picture you can have as good an hourly rate from tournaments if you're a good player.

No

zuutroy · 06-08-2007 08:48PM

ianmc38 wrote:

No

Really? I've read a lot of blogs from people who claim the contrary.

jimmii · 06-08-2007 08:49PM

Negreanu posts very detailed poker accounts on FCP I doubt you will find any other high stakes player who will disclose that amount of information. If there was as much money in tourneys as there was in cash games you wouldn't see the biggest names playing cash games night after night with the occassional tourney thrown in. In the Card Player OPOY (online player of the year) rankings the top players haven't even cracked $500k for the year and that is just a typical daily swing for the big cash game players.

cardshark202 · 06-08-2007 09:26PM

Most of the biggest tourney players are breakeven or small winner over the longterm, even losers. No way can you make as much money from tournaments unless you get really lucky and win one

LuckyLloyd · 06-08-2007 09:31PM

This post has been deleted.

Jesus Wept · 06-08-2007 09:42PM

ianmc38 wrote:

No

wrong.

This thread gives me deja vu.

It seems to me to boil down to this. Most cash players are far better at cash games than tournaments (well that's probably why they are cash game players

),
Because of this, they prefer to believe that tournaments are 90%+ luck/donkfests where no one can really have a much greater expectation than anyone else over time,
and anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves and that cash games are far far far more skillful/worthy of respect/whatever/etc/etc/etc/the list goes on/etc.

Also, they clearly are not able/willing to weather the difficult runs you can face when playing tournament poker (not that these don't happen in cash, they just often can be even more barren in when playing tournaments exclusively).

It is also far more noticeable/garners everyones attention more and gains more media coverage if some donk wins $200k/$2million/etc in a televised tournament than when 10,000 donks (probably more) outdraw people in cash games on a given day, every day, for on average $500 pots. (The numbers are probably way higher

)

The argument is tiresome as it's rarely fueled by anything but ego and disillusionment, so stick to your cashaments if you can't get a decent winrate in tournaments, and stfu crying.

cardshark202 wrote:

Most of the biggest tourney players are breakeven or small winner over the longterm, even losers. No way can you make as much money from tournaments unless you get really lucky and win one

Don't agree with the above statement....

But on that note, I do find it irritating how they throw around things like 'x player has $3.2million in tournament earnings', when the cost of buyins are not taken into account.
It would be a nice if a system was in place where all tournaments buyins were deducted from tournament winnings on sites such as the Hendon mob. Only then could you get a true picture of players true live earnings.

cardshark202 · 06-08-2007 10:17PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

That's not entirely true. There is a whole host of online tournament pros who are hugely profitable over extended sample sizes.

I did say most. And I was generally referring to live tournament players, but it basically holds true for online aswell

opr · 06-08-2007 10:18PM

Disclaimer : None of this is to prove any kind of point as i think the thread is silly and has been done to death but since i was reading these today. Alot of very profitable tourney players are losers due to cash games.

Its seems gigabet is now a losing player and supposely this is in large part to playing huge cash games where he is a big loser. I can't find the thread on this but i did read it today so its around on BBV somewhere here is another with Mr Booth who only last season bought into HSP for 1 million and is now playing 10/20 !!

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=11545766&an=0&page=1#Post11545766

Opr

ianmc38 · 06-08-2007 10:38PM

The-Rigger wrote:

wrong.

This thread gives me deja vu.

It seems to me to boil down to this. Most cash players are far better at cash games than tournaments (well that's probably why they are cash game players ),
Because of this, they prefer to believe that tournaments are 90%+ luck/donkfests where no one can really have a much greater expectation than anyone else over time,
and anyone who says otherwise is kidding themselves and that cash games are far far far more skillful/worthy of respect/whatever/etc/etc/etc/the list goes on/etc.

Also, they clearly are not able/willing to weather the difficult runs you can face when playing tournament poker (not that these don't happen in cash, they just often can be even more barren in when playing tournaments exclusively).

It is also far more noticeable/garners everyones attention more and gains more media coverage if some donk wins $200k/$2million/etc in a televised tournament than when 10,000 donks (probably more) outdraw people in cash games on a given day, every day, for on average $500 pots. (The numbers are probably way higher )

The argument is tiresome as it's rarely fueled by anything but ego and disillusionment, so stick to your cashaments if you can't get a decent winrate in tournaments, and stfu crying.

Don't agree with the above statement....

But on that note, I do find it irritating how they throw around things like 'x player has $3.2million in tournament earnings', when the cost of buyins are not taken into account.
It would be a nice if a system was in place where all tournaments buyins were deducted from tournament winnings on sites such as the Hendon mob. Only then could you get a true picture of players true live earnings.

Disagree.

Its nothing to do with the poker skills of people who are predominantly cash/tourney players. Its sustainable winrate. I would think the average cash game player can make more money than a tourney player of equal skill using comparable limits ie cash game levels against a comparable tourney buyin.

I am open to alternative viewpoints though

cardshark202 · 06-08-2007 10:53PM

Also, most of the players who I've played tournaments with who have impressed me most are players who would generally be seen as cash game players.
A good example is my OPR ranking. My stars account was in the top 0.8% of online tourney players last time I checked, and I'm not even a big tourney player by any means. I've had only 2 cashes of 5k or more and I haven't played that many tourneys. What does that say about the majority of tourney players?

cardshark202 · 06-08-2007 11:00PM

There is no chance that a really good tournament player could sustain the same winrate as a really good cash game player. Its just impossible.

Theresalwaysone · 06-08-2007 11:39PM

cardshark202 wrote:

There is no chance that a really good tournament player could sustain the same winrate as a really good cash game player. Its just impossible.

Agreed.

NickyOD · 07-08-2007 12:41AM

The longer I play poker the more I realise that being a winning player long term is 20% skill, and 80% smart money management and table selection.

When it comes to my most profitable tables, I'm way more profitable from STTs lately than cash games but I'm still reasonably successful at cash.

Fatboydim · 07-08-2007 01:13AM

This has kind of strayed off topic. If you look at the original post it's not about Tournament players v Cash Players. It's about how the styles differ. Tips relating to cash play.

i know talking with many pros for example that they advocate [online at least] playing abc tight aggresive poker looking mainly to fill sets and make a killing on hands they hit big.

As Nicky says above... Money management - Table selection are really important - and certainly in tournaments table selection is something you have no control over.

So to get back on topic lets have some more tips.

OPR - You strike me as a very negative person - I hope you're happier in real life.:D

Theresalwaysone · 07-08-2007 01:26AM

Live Cash Poker, Anywhere in Dublin against general drunk, recreational, new players. 70%+ of the players. Obviously the better players will sniff this out.

Play Tight Abc Poker. You will get paid off every time. Even if you sit there for 6hours not playing a hand and suddenly come in for an UTG limp reraise with your long awaited AA. And you WILL GET CALLED BY QJoffsuit.

Use your position like a Hammer: I find that live dublin players fold far to much to positional C-bets. I know somepeople are telling me to slow down on the c-betting, even some good posters on this forum but i always feel like not C-betting after being checked to is a missed opportunity.

When they Check the Turn:
I find a flat call on the flop and and open check on the turn is always so weak.

When you float the flop: ( obviously pick your spots)
And bet out on a non scary turn card for some reason it scares the bejeeeeeesus out of most players. I don't know why.

opr · 07-08-2007 02:37AM

Fatboydim wrote:

OPR - You strike me as a very negative person - I hope you're happier in real life.:D

lol thanks man. I'll be honest and say when i see this kinda thread i have a very negative attitute towards them. I would have thought someone posting here as long as yourself has seen dozens of these threads

The topic is so broad and unanswerable its just silly.

Like this :

Fatboydim wrote:

Should you play even tighter?

What , when , where ....... i mean are you comparing how tight you should play in the bubble stage of a tourney when you have a 10 bb stack against maybe how tight you should play 200bb deep on the button in a cash game?
Poker is poker and this kind of thing is control by things like the situation , your stacks, your style , position and not if your playing a tournament or cash game.

If you want to learn how to play cash games better well try some of these :
Go to 2+2 guide in sticky on this forum find the threads to do with cash games and read : Money mangement , Game selection etc etc. It has a wealth of knowledge with each topic dicussed in amazing detail.
Read Fuzz's tips on playing 6max games.
Read hand histories , post hands you have problems with.
Anyalise your play with poker tracker.

Alot of the concepts that make you a winning tournament player can be translated to cash but at the risk of getting flamed i think the evolution of all poker players who want to become better is from tournaments to cash. So i think the differnce is you need to become better and more skilled to make money at cash as you play deeper , you make more decisions , forced to play more streets , things like tilt control become big issues etc etc etc

As i already pointed out earlier in this thread and if you talk to pro's they will tell you the same : Its hard for a winning tournament player to become a winning cash game player but i think its fairly easy for a winning cash game player to become a winning tournament player and their is a reason for this.

Opr

nicnicnic · 07-08-2007 05:26AM

opr wrote:

easy for a winning cash game player to become a winning tournament player and their is a reason for this.

Opr

can you name a few. not being smart here but I think this is a common opinion of players who have learned the game playing cash. they start playing tournaments with the idea that its going to be easy. I guarantee most get a rude awaking without cashing in there first 10 or 20 tournaments.

I have a mixed opinion here but in general feel good players are good players whatever chosen field.

cash players will generally play deeper and because they play more later streets feel that more skill is involved. in general good cash players have a better theoretical knowledge of the game. Also in cash games the donkey and luck factor is easier negated by the reload so variance is not going to be as much a factor as in tournaments.

I think good tournament players are better situational adaptable then cash players. A +Ev situation in a cash game is simply that. In a tournament the few % edge can be diluted by so many other factors.

As for sustainable profit, well cash is going to be easier and more profitable. I'd say 10% of cash players are profitable and 1% can probably make a living wage from it ; while probably less then 1 in 1000 tournament players can. This is just the nature of the beast in 2005 el blondie topped the European rankings and broke even for the year. the top online players hit a roi of 130% but if you look at it its cashed for 230k with 100k entries. this means a few big hits and running well the top cash players are probably knocking out this a month. so such information must clearly point to cash as a more sustainable form of the game for profit.

however this doesn't mean that cash are better players then tourney players. I personally think if I could pick four of the best perceived tournament players to play a 200bb non blind raising stt against the 4 best cash exclusive players here and they would wipe the floor with them. Why because they would understand what is required in a holistic sense of the game rather then any specific hand.

I want to put a disclaimer in with this post as I'm well pissed

The Al Lad · 07-08-2007 05:42AM

nicnicnic wrote:

can you name a few. not being smart here but I think this is a common opinion of players who have learned the game playing cash. they start playing tournaments with the idea that its going to be easy. I guarantee most get a rude awaking without cashing in there first 10 or 20 tournaments.

I have a mixed opinion here but in general feel good players are good players whatever chosen field.

cash players will generally play deeper and because they play more later streets feel that more skill is involved. in general good cash players have a better theoretical knowledge of the game. Also in cash games the donkey and luck factor is easier negated by the reload so variance is not going to be as much a factor as in tournaments.

I think good tournament players are better situational adaptable then cash players. A +Ev situation in a cash game is simply that. In a tournament the few % edge can be diluted by so many other factors.

As for sustainable profit, well cash is going to be easier and more profitable. I'd say 10% of cash players are profitable and 1% can probably make a living wage from it ; while probably less then 1 in 1000 tournament players can. This is just the nature of the beast in 2005 el blondie topped the European rankings and broke even for the year. the top online players hit a roi of 130% but if you look at it its cashed for 230k with 100k entries. this means a few big hits and running well the top cash players are probably knocking out this a month. so such information must clearly point to cash as a more sustainable form of the game for profit.

however this doesn't mean that cash are better players then tourney players. I personally think if I could pick four of the best perceived tournament players to play a 200bb non blind raising stt against the 4 best cash exclusive players here and they would wipe the floor with them. Why because they would understand what is required in a holistic sense of the game rather then any specific hand.

I want to put a disclaimer in with this post as I'm well pissed

thats an awfully long post for 6 o'clock in the morning

HalfBaked · 07-08-2007 05:42AM

nicnicnic wrote:

I want to put a disclaimer in with this post as I'm well pissed

Is this part of your signature Nicky?

Fatboydim · 07-08-2007 10:43AM

opr wrote:

The topic is so broad and unanswerable its just silly.

LOL - It's for the odd gem that comes out. - You might as well say that there's no point in ever buying another book on game theory. -

I think the game is fluid and moves all the time and therefore it's worth asking the same questions over and over after a period of time. Sure I'm not as bad as I make out

I have winning days and losing days. But a thread like this can often produce one or two diamonds. Like I just really like Niall's answer because it's so simple and easy to remember.

Iago · 07-08-2007 11:11AM

I know it's off-topic to the question asked, but it's on-topic to the conversation that's followed.

For the last 3 years I'm a slight overall winner in MTTs, a very big overall winner in STTs, and a very big overall loser in cash games.

For a long time I thought the fact that I was consistently losing in cash games made me a bad player. I'm not saying I'm not a bad player, but I'm no longer convinced that the fact I can't seem to win in cash games makes me a bad player. I still believe that if I could master cash games I'd make a far higher hourly rate, but I'm happy enough working away at the STTs for now.

incidentally I also find that I win a reasonable amount at 8-handed and 10-handed cash game tables, but really suck at 6 seaters!

maybe I am a bad player after all!

ozpoker · 07-08-2007 11:46AM

I don't generally like to get involved in these type of discussions, but ocallagh had the right take: poker is poker, NLH is NLH. The stack sizes relative to the blinds are a huge factor in how to play a hand, and the relative short stacks of tourney play make it a preflop and flop game. The relative deep stacks of cash play make it more of a turn and river game. But you can be in a short stack situation in a cash game just as you can be in a deep stack situation in a tourney. A good player understands the ramifications of each and plays accordingly.

Good tourney players can make a very acceptable hourly rate playing in the big tourneys (and many do), but nothing compared to the astronomical rates the best players make in the biggest cash games. The simple reason is that there aren't enough losing players willing to pony up a $50K buyin to make tourney play as profitable.

The reason tourney players often get crushed in high stakes cash game is that the ultra aggressive preflop and flop style that works so well in tourneys isn't a winning deep stack strategy. This is the main reason high stakes "cash" players heap derision on "tourney" players.

-Oz-

ianmc38 · 07-08-2007 03:26PM

I'm predominantly a cash game player but I would estimate that my ITM finishes in the tourneys Ive played on Ipoker are comparable to any of the better tourney players on the network albeit over a smallish dataset as I only play them for fun or if theres a bigger one on.

Similarly, the few STTs I've played I have done quite well. I think its easy to adapt to STT/MTT play once you understand the fundamental workings of the different structures and the implications of increasing blinds etc.

Tournament V Cash

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