Tournament V Cash

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

HJ, I play cash every day, I play tournies about once a month these days! I'm not sure what anything I played would conclude but I'm game for anything.

Also, I'm not sure what you are trying to prove because there are about 6 points being made in this thread.

DeV.

Why do you play cash games every day, and not tournaments?

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

Nothing to do with bank balance, but if you cant beat cash games I dont see why you would be able to understand what makes them different to tournaments. Its a technical question, which is the difference to your 2nd point, because allowing abortions is a moral or ethical question.

lol

Surely a theory/statement/opinion stands or falls on the inherent truth you see it in regardless of the experience of a player. You might be right to say "any future opinion from this player is very likely to be wrong because they are bad" but you cant say "this specific opinion in front of me is wrong or likely to be wrong because they dont play very well"

DeV.

DeVore

Hectorjelly wrote:

Why do you play cash games every day, and not tournaments?

Time constraints.

DeV.

Van Dice

2 totally different skill sets imo.

DeVore

Van Dice wrote:

2 totally different skill sets imo.

and my only point , for all the thread has been that the Tournie Skill Set seems to be a super-set of the Cash Skill Set.... I'm not even arrogantly insisting on that, I am postulating it as a theory and asking for counter examples (a skill in cash that is NOT required in tournies).

DeV.

Fatboydim

carfax wrote:

Very good point imo.

They are very different but they are the same game after all. I think FBD intended this thread to have a more theoretical approach and in practical terms things like what adjustments to make if you are a successful tournament player struggling to lodge a win in a cash session and vice versa.

Exactly .. I want to improve my cash play and expected some theory in this thread.

But what always makes me laugh about Cardshark is he says so much without actually saying anything at all. Never providing examples. Just slagging and sledging.

cardshark202

How about we pick one tournament donkey vs one good poker player and they each have to play 100 online tournaments a week for 10 weeks and we'll see who performs better. Then they both have to play 100k hands in a cash game and see who performs better. Lots of betting could go on on this too.

sikes

The skill sets are in no way different, the skills are the same, hand reading, bet sizing, hand strength, mathematics blah blah blah. The difference is that many tournament players sugar coat plays with names becuase they often dont understand the fundamentals of poker which the "play" comes from and thus they will never be able to adjust to deeper games effectively and the complexity of decisions expands exponentially with every decision.

What are the skills that exist in tournament poker / shallow stack that dont have any place in cash / deep stack?

Hectorjelly

DeVore wrote:

Surely a theory/statement/opinion stands or falls on the inherent truth you see it in regardless of the experience of a player. You might be right to say "any future opinion from this player is very likely to be wrong because they are bad" but you cant say "this specific opinion in front of me is wrong or likely to be wrong because they dont play very well"

DeV.

people lose for a reason!

DeVore

Ah hector, stop it! lol

DeV.

Hectorjelly

cardshark202 wrote:

How about we pick one tournament donkey vs one good poker player and they each have to play 100 online tournaments a week for 10 weeks and we'll see who performs better. Then they both have to play 100k hands in a cash game and see who performs better. Lots of betting could go on on this too.

yeah thats along the lines I was thinking. Im sure the tournament donkeys will back down though because deep down underneath they know us cash freaks make more money and get more women

edit: ps cardshark pls stop slagging and sledging

DeVore

and arguments like "this will prove NOTHING" will be scorned because we can't play ping pong.

DeV.

Fatboydim

Hectorjelly wrote:

Why do you play cash games every day, and not tournaments?

Actually isn't the answer to this counter productive to the argument? I play cash every day [or most days] because it's easier to make money, and I then donk it off in Tournaments. If it's easier [and I don't consider myself a good cash player] then surely it's less skillfull

Also abortion is not only a moral and ethical question but also an economic one[ according to Stephen Levitt economist]

I think Dev's point still has not been answered.

And I'm still looking for tips.

sikes

So you are a cash player and you want advice on moving to tourney's?

I'm really confused about what you looking for at this point but perhaps you are underestimating the variance involved and you should just get more games in.

Captain Tom

sikes wrote:

What are the skills that exist in tournament poker / shallow stack that dont have any place in cash / deep stack?

playing 40bb- deep allows little margin for error. small pots can quickly escalate into critical ones. tournament players therefore have much less information to utilise when making these critical decisions in comparison to cash game players, who are accustomed to playing 100bb+ deep. there is rarely room for a call/re-evuluate mentality. i think these frequent pressurised situations sometimes result in more refined hand reading abilities than people i would consider solid/winning msnl cash game players.

i do think this is the exception rather than the rule though, and that this only applies to a handful of people i have come across.

Captain Tom

also,

Hectorjelly wrote:

ok weve had these threads before. I suggest we find a way to settle it once and for all with some sort of ridiculous crossbooking prop bet. im willing to bet up to $500 if we cant sort out some reasnable details. carfax, de vore, nicnicnic are any of you interested? Or any other mainly tournament player?

gogogogogogogogoggogogogogo!!!!

cardshark202

Captain Tom

^^^^^^

LOL

also meant to add my point is referring specifically to tournament situations.

sikes

Captain Tom wrote:

playing 40bb- deep allows little margin for error. small pots can quickly escalate into critical ones. tournament players therefore have much less information to utilise when making these critical decisions in comparison to cash game players, who are accustomed to playing 100bb+ deep. there is rarely room for a call/re-evuluate mentality. i think these frequent pressurised situations sometimes result in more refined hand reading abilities than people i would consider solid/winning msnl cash game players.

i do think this is the exception rather than the rule though, and that this only applies to a handful of people i have come across.

I agree there may be situations where a tourney player could have the edge in hand reading, but these would certainly be overshadowed by the times a cash player would have the edge in hand reading.

nicnicnic

bohsman wrote:

. Nicnicnic proves the point the other way though.

HmHm if I'm proving points then I'd like to know what they are

DeVore

Still interested to hear an counter example to proposition: Tournie Skill Set is a superset of Cash Skill Set....

DeV.

bohsman

That tournament players can make some fairly basic mistakes after moving to cashgames

nicnicnic

Hectorjelly wrote:

ok weve had these threads before. I suggest we find a way to settle it once and for all with some sort of ridiculous crossbooking prop bet. im willing to bet up to $500 if we cant sort out some reasnable details. carfax, de vore, nicnicnic are any of you interested? Or any other mainly tournament player?

I'll have a go never let it be said Betty rared a jibber but as I have practically no cash experience I would feel at a severe disadvantage but I'm perpared to give something a go. can my tournaments start from last night I chopped a 1291 field HU on stars

nicnicnic

bohsman wrote:

That tournament players can make some fairly basic mistakes after moving to cashgames

my cash experience is about 3k hands over the last two weeks and the odd 2/5 game when drunk which i usually kill do u have me on your buddy list or something that your aware of these fundamental mistakes Ive been making.


Valor is my new coach so he cant chastise me here, confidentiality clause, wow cant believe that didn't need spell check

DeVore

Bohsman, thats a qualitative judgement of talent, not a skill which is used in cashgames which is not used in well structured tournaments.

All tournament players could play disasterously at cash and it wouldnt falsify the statement "the set of skills needed in a well structured tournament includes and exceeds the set of skills needed in a deep stacked cash game".

I'm not being dogmatic or defensive, I'm just asking for someone to give me a counter example to that statement. (I'm not emotionally invested in "defending" tournaments or attacking cash gamers).

DeV.

cardshark202

If I've come across as an arrogant poker snob it's because I am one

cardshark202

nicnicnic wrote:

I'll have a go never let it be said Betty rared a jibber but as I have practically no cash experience I would feel at a severe disadvantage but I'm perpared to give something a go. can my tournaments start from last night I chopped a 1291 field HU on stars

Donkeys only Nicky, you're too good.

nicnicnic

cardshark202 wrote:

Donkeys only Nicky, you're too good.

lol are you drunk Reggie

cardshark202

No but maybe I should be

ocallagh

100 BBs requires much more skill because we have a turn and river to play which means processing many more variables.

40 BBs does not require as much skill.

Thus, a standard 100BB player adapting to 40BB play is quicker than vice versa.

I would also add:

Playing with 40BBs does not require the player to process as many variables and is easy enough to master the fundamentals. This leaves intelligent and expert 40BB players with much more time to refine their 40BB play. When a cash game player refines their 100BB play to such a degree (and higher) they would be HSNL players and ridiculously good at poker.

Also, when talking about Tournament Players and Cash players, why do people always use the 'average player' for comparison?? There are many tournament players who given the chance would evolve into far superior cash game players than many that preach on boards!

Also, people say the first few levels of a tournament provide the player with the opportunity to play the game like a cash game (100BBs). Re-thinking about this, it's actually not the case. Most tournament players play far too tight at this stage and wait until they are more comfortable with 40BBs. Of course some expert tournament players are different..