Drinkers rights and threats to them

31-07-2007 02:21AM

the_syco wrote:

24 hour drinking would mean a way of getting home would be harder. If the last bus is at 4:30am, and the next bus is at 8am, the only option is to keep drinking.

I would assume (actually, I'd pray) that if a staggered closing time was put in place that the bus times would change.

JC 2K3 · 31-07-2007 02:37AM

PeakOutput wrote:

i dont see a necessity for a drug that does the above either so they are both pointless imo. i enjoy drinking but i dont do it to make it easier to socialise or relax which is probably were my view will differ to most's

Why should one persons view on alcohol be the basis of legislation?

PeakOutput wrote:

there are hundreds of thousands of people in ireland who are not alcoholics but are mentally addicted to alcohol in some form or another i dont see this as acceptable either really

Why not?

I don't understand the "addiction = bad" mentality. There are so many different types of drugs and so many different types and levels of addiction that this is a far too general attitude to take.

Addiction to nicotine for a lot of people in this country didn't affect productivity or quality of life for the years it was very prevalent(fair enough there is an (exaggerated) increased risk of cancer, but that's not relevant here as this is a specific characteristic of tobacco) and addiction to caffeine(how many people do you know that need a cup of coffee or two in the morning?) doesn't either at the moment. Many people are addicted to prescription medicine and still live happy lives with good jobs and some are even addicted to illicit substances and do not suffer many negative consequences as a result.

It's when an addiction gets out of control that there's a problem. A mild psychological addiction to alcohol, ie. one drinking at every social occasion, is not a major problem and the only thing I see unacceptable about it is that it's healthier to vary which recreational substances one takes, yet alcohol is the only one available in an accepted form.

agamemnon wrote:

Some of their TDs were floating the idea of banning alcohol advertising altogether, as if that would really change anything.

I'm not a fan of Fine Gael, but this is something I would thoroughly support. You underestimate the power of advertising. No recreational drug should be advertised.

Zillah · 31-07-2007 02:50AM

Myth wrote:

I would assume (actually, I'd pray) that if a staggered closing time was put in place that the bus times would change.

Exactly. It would be staggeringly stupid to change the opening times and leave the current bus timetable unchanged. Our public transportation network is a disaster though tbh.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 31-07-2007 04:00AM

Tha Gopher wrote:

Got me thinking, is anyone else alarmed at what at times seems to be a gradual slide towards partial prohibition?

No, I'm delighted.
As a smoker who's had to deal with bans and price hikes while non-smokers nod their heads approvingly, I'm thrilled to see them get their share of nanny-state interference.
I don't drink much, so I couldn't give a shít.
*points and laughs at the panicking alcos*

Zillah · 31-07-2007 06:59AM

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

No, I'm delighted.
As a smoker who's had to deal with bans and price hikes while non-smokers nod their heads approvingly, I'm thrilled to see them get their share of nanny-state interference.
I don't drink much, so I couldn't give a shít.
*points and laughs at the panicking alcos*

I am a smoker, drinker and against banning either. Why must you spite me?

Reku · 31-07-2007 09:21AM

PeakOutput wrote:

you are right and it will change when people can get drink at any time they want(from the right places)............it will be bedlam for 6-12 months then the novelty will have worn off, people will have realised they cant do a days work after getting home from the pub at 8am on monday morning and things will get to a stage where drink is not an issue

My co-workers still haven't managed to learn that about drinking 'til ~4am.

Personally I think Irish people drink too much and it's more to get drunk than giddy/merry, often been told by drinkers that it's so they can do what they want and if anyone says anything afterwards they can reply "Sorry, I was drunk" and just shrug it off. As such anything that undermines that mentality is a good thing IMO as for one thing I imagine the level of drunk driving, drunken fights, rape claims (wether they be genuine or just post beer goggle regrets) and such would go down freeing up police and courts to deal with other things.

Terry · 31-07-2007 09:37AM

24 hour drinking might be worth a 6 month trial run.
Then again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKBCCDOUS9U

Gone West · 31-07-2007 09:45AM

Tha Gopher wrote:

Todays indo, the main headline talked of how Brian Lenihan is determined to clamp down on our drink culture, starting with a review of off licence opening times. As if it wasnt already bad enough that you cant buy a few beers if you happen upon a post club party, they are talking of further reducing off licence opening hours, fcuking disgraceful.

Got me thinking, is anyone else alarmed at what at times seems to be a gradual slide towards partial prohibition? Anyone feel the government is under pressure from parents groups or what have you who have watched a few too many Prime Time specials leading them to believe that Dublin on a Saturday night is like the eve of the apocolypse rather than being full of drunks who, although maybe a bit loud, in the vast majority of cases manage to have the craic and get home without collapsing, being run over, fighting, getting arrested or getting their stomach pumped?

Hah the metro/herald AM said it was Conor Lenihan.
Quality publication.

cooperguy · 31-07-2007 09:46AM

Ya it is a proven fact that 24 hour drinking works. Since they brought it in over in England the number of arrests and public order offences have dropped by an absolutely huge amount (we're talking 40-50%). I remember seeing a report on tv about it a while back. There is also no way you can say that there is a different drinking culture over there as they have practically the same level of drinking.

You can be guaranteed that there is no politician around to suggest bringing in this legislation here though. There is too many mammys groups who will come down on them like a ton of bricks.

ixoy · 31-07-2007 10:54AM

cooperguy wrote:

Ya it is a proven fact that 24 hour drinking works. Since they brought it in over in England the number of arrests and public order offences have dropped by an absolutely huge amount (we're talking 40-50%).

Really? Au contraire, it's not as straightforward as you make it seem (from the Sunday Times one and a half weeks ago):

Drink laws top up night crime

More flexible pub opening times have done little to curb Britain’s excessive drinking habits, it emerged last week. There was a rise in nighttime crime after the new laws were introduced and one study suggests that the number of alcohol-related nighttime hospital visits has trebled.

Ministers hoped that staggered opening hours and later closing times introduced by the 2003 Licensing Act would limit offences committed by the drunken crowds that surged onto the streets at the traditional 11pm closing time. But a report published by the Home Office last week shows that many of the troubles have merely been postponed.

Crime is certainly down at the old closing time. In the year after November 2005, when the changes were introduced, there were 3,523 fewer offences of violence, disorder or criminal damage between 9pm and midnight. But in the hours between midnight and 6am the number of offences rose by 13,852. The bright spot, according to the Home Office, is a 5% drop in serious violent crime during the night.

The figures were collected by 30 of the 43 police forces in England and Wales. They show:

- 319,846 offences committed between 9pm and midnight (down 1%).
- 242,999 from midnight to 3am (up 2%).
- 57,778 from 3am to 6am (up 22%).

There were also 9,609 crimes for which no time is recorded (down 24%).

The figures should be read against a fall in these offences – by 3% – during the day, from 6am to 6pm.

The effects of the changes are certainly being felt at St Thomas’ hospital in London, which stands across the Thames from the House of Commons. Staff at the accident and emergency department report a threefold increase in drink-related night visits.

Dr Alastair Newton, writing in the Emergency Medicine Journal, says his team logged visits in March 2005 and again in March 2006. Before the introduction of allnight drinking, 79 out of 2,736 visits were alcohol related (2.9%). Afterwards, alcohol contributed to 250 out of 3,135 visits (8%).

There were 27 alcohol-related assaults at the hospital in March 2005, but 62 a year later. “If reproduced over longer time periods and across the UK as a whole, the additional numbers of patients presenting to emergency departments with alcohol-related problems could be very substantial,” says Dr Newton.

Previous figures have revealed that drink-related deaths have nearly doubled in the past 15 years. There were about 8,500 deaths blamed on drink in 2005. Just to put this into perspective, if people continued to die at this rate for 10 years, it would be equivalent to killing almost the entire population of Jersey.

Wouldn't count that as a roaring success.

BKtje · 31-07-2007 11:03AM

As a smoker who's had to deal with bans and price hikes while non-smokers nod their heads approvingly

Ah yes i spray my alcohol into the air every couple of seconds to share it with everyone in the vicinity (Spillages dont count

).

I too would like to see 24hr or at least largely extended opening hours.
Less people on the street at once, no more ah only 30mins to closing better hit the hard stuff, no more "ah im hammered but ill just hang in here, its closing time soon anyway". Smaller taxi queues, less crowding, more choice. In my experience there really are very few draw backs though of course there are some.

Could you imagine going for a weekend out, going for a social drink, going clubbing etc and being sober all the time. I think i'd cry (or find me a beer baron to get my fix).

31-07-2007 11:45AM

This post has been deleted.

PeakOutput · 31-07-2007 11:46AM

JC 2K3 wrote:

Why should one persons view on alcohol be the basis of legislation?

firstly i never said that in the part you quoted and secondly i didnt realise people here were taking polls and then offering the results of the polls as their opinion. you can say the above to anyone who has posted here as it is all their personal opinion

Why not?

you don't think its sad that the majority of people cannot have a good time at the weekends without the help of alcohol? i would imagine 90% of them don't even have a problem admitting they cant either. i just think this is a very sad state of affairs and while the actual substance is not the main problem(it is the attitude in this country) the only way to solve the problem is to change the rules regarding the substance

jester77 · 31-07-2007 11:59AM

24 hour drinking is the way forward. I can drink around the clock here if I wanted and so could everyone else but no one does. What's great about 24 hour drinking is that people are out at different times so bars are never over packed. I can go over to a friends, have a few beers while playing xbox and head to the pub around 1 or 2 and drink until 7 or 8 in the morning. Everyone leaves at different times so the burger/kebab houses, trains, buses and taxis ranks are never crowded. People don't feel like they have to throw back drinks as closing time is fast approaching, so you don't see people here knocking back 5 or 6 jagermeisters just to get drunk. Plus I find that there is a big difference between the way alcohol is consumed. In Ireland someone might drink 8 pints before closing and they are drunk while here someone might drink the same but as it's over a longer period they are just merry, content and want to go home. I've never seen a single fight on the street in the 5 or 6 years I've been here. Was guaranteed to see a fight every night I was out in Ireland.

Kintarō Hattori · 31-07-2007 12:06PM

What is needed is a complete change in social attitudes to drink. It's being demonized by the government, which only makes it all the more attractive to the public, and fuels the whole binge attitude. We need pubs to be open longer, more cafe's to sell it and take away the whole 'mystery', 'stigma' etc that is associated with it.
Also we as a people need to grow up to with our attitude towards it. When you can get easy access to it, almost anywhere it'll loose some hold on people and we won't see so much binge drinking etc.

FlutterinBantam · 31-07-2007 12:21PM

eo980 wrote:

What is needed is a complete change in social attitudes to drink. It's being demonized by the government, which only makes it all the more attractive to the public, and fuels the whole binge attitude. We need pubs to be open longer, more cafe's to sell it and take away the whole 'mystery', 'stigma' etc that is associated with it.
Also we as a people need to grow up to with our attitude towards it. When you can get easy access to it, almost anywhere it'll loose some hold on people and we won't see so much binge drinking etc.

That's almost exactly what Ml. mcDowell proposed,and look what happened to him!!

I agree totally that its our attitude to drink is the major cause of the problem.

This won't be changed in this generation,and one of the reasons is that the licensed trade see their big profits diminishing.

Don't penalise the majority for the stupidity of a few.

Agamemnon · 31-07-2007 12:36PM

PeakOutput wrote:

really??? i could of sworn carlsberg, miller and the one vinny jones advertises for recently had ads were people were at parties drinking but come to think of it i cant remember seeing anyone with an actual drink so maybe my mind filled in the blanks itself

either way at the end of the day the ad's are not going to help the situation no matter how subtle they are so just get rud of them.

Here's the rules on alcohol advertising in this country:

citizensinformation.ie wrote:

According to the Advertising Standards Authority for Ireland's general codes of conduct for the advertising of alcohol, ads should:
Not target minors (those under 18 years) or show minors consuming alcoholic drinks

Not show or suggest over-indulgence in alcohol

Not target non-drinkers with messages that glorify alcohol

Not present abstinence or moderation in a negative way

Not give the impression that alcohol can bring social or sexual success or improve physical performance

Not associate drinking with driving or operating machinery

Not emphasise high alcoholic content as a benefit

Not refer to any "therapeutic" benefits of alcohol.

Banning alcohol advertising altogether would not stop alcoholism and drunken violence, any more than banning car advertising would stop traffic accidents. In a liberal economy, why shouldn't a company be allowed to advertise their products, as long as it's done responsibly?

Kintarō Hattori · 31-07-2007 12:44PM

agamemnon wrote:

Banning alcohol advertising altogether would not stop alcoholism and drunken violence, any more than banning car advertising would stop traffic accidents.

I have to agree. Banning alcohol advertising is an insane idea. It can only exacerbate the situation. By trying to limit access to it and trying to 'hide' it away from people they'll only end up glorifying it even more in people's eyes.

The Hill Billy · 31-07-2007 12:59PM

I'll drink to that!

Hic!

ScumLord · 31-07-2007 01:01PM

Instead of attaking the rights of Irish citizens they should think about encouraging alternitives to the pub. There's little else to do in my town other than go to a pub. It takes me ages to get anywhere because the roads are so bad, when I get there it's going to cost a fortune because the robbing ***** at insurance companies are allowed to charge whatever figure comes into their heads.

It's not their job to tell me who to live my life.

Duggy747 · 31-07-2007 01:12PM

Remember people, it was the National Off-Licence Association who proposed this to FF, not the other way around.

This Off-license thing this will probably go ahead when it's more panned out but it's not expected to until after Autumn. Though if this decision does go ahead then it's just going to contradict the previous government's term's decision on being more liberal to off-licenses. A study should be done to see had there being any significant changes in alcohal-related crimes since that legislation was changed.

PeakOutput · 31-07-2007 01:23PM

agamemnon wrote:

Banning alcohol advertising altogether would not stop alcoholism and drunken violence/QUOTE]

is it helping though??? no its not so get rid of it imo.

edit; i also think that a proportion of the price the drinks companies get should go to things like aa but thats probably for a different thread

layke · 31-07-2007 02:12PM

What a total load of bollocks, this is nothing more then a 'look i'm doing something' move. Closing offies or curbing their opening hours is not going to solve anything. Sure when i'm going out to a mates house for a hardcore binge drink (I may even have 4 pints) I would probably buy my stuff at 7ish.

If they want to cut out the drink culture they need to close all offies, I doubt the proposal wil go through though. Remember a load of TD's own pubs themselves. It would just cost them too much from their own pocket.

Feckin tree huggers.

cooperguy · 31-07-2007 02:40PM

ixoy wrote:

Really? Au contraire, it's not as straightforward as you make it seem (from the Sunday Times one and a half weeks ago):

Wouldn't count that as a roaring success.

But over all the crime figures have dropped and the crime that is left is spread over the later hours. And of coarse the best bit is early evening crime is down hugely when the most people are around. And as for more people drinking themselves into hospital to get their stomach pumped not only was that following an increasing trend anyway but they are harming themselves instead of stabbing me which is a good trade off in my opinion.

A poster above me said that the Offie association proposed this change can I ask the reason they did? Surely its just going to damage them?

FlutterinBantam · 31-07-2007 02:43PM

Heh heh Just listen to Liveline today and tell me The Irish can handle drink...

Duggy747 · 31-07-2007 03:03PM

cooperguy wrote:

A poster above me said that the Offie association proposed this change can I ask the reason they did? Surely its just going to damage them?

Well apparentley they want to "tackle the drink culture" and restrict opening hours if it will make a difference. Plus they want a ban brought back on below-cost selling which means no more great deals on booze from large stores like Tesco or Dunnes Stores (Hmmm, sounds like there's a bit of a bigger agenda here, eh?)

So, in effect, the proposal is to restrict opening hours AND increase booze prices in large stores like supermarkets

31-07-2007 03:47PM

if they want to "tackle the drink culture" they can start coming up with alternatives in socialising in the evening other than the pub
it's not like cafes are open that late, if there even are any decent ones in the local whereever

less opening hours = more stockpiling, i wonder what we'd see if we looked at sales figures on thursday evening before good friday each year :rolleyes:

cooperguy · 31-07-2007 04:00PM

Duggy747 wrote:

Well apparentley they want to "tackle the drink culture" and restrict opening hours if it will make a difference. Plus they want a ban brought back on below-cost selling which means no more great deals on booze from large stores like Tesco or Dunnes Stores (Hmmm, sounds like there's a bit of a bigger agenda here, eh?)

So, in effect, the proposal is to restrict opening hours AND increase booze prices in large stores like supermarkets

That sort of shít really annoys me. Basically all they want to do is stop the supermarkets selling below cost. Why cant they just live and let live? The Off-Licenses are experiencing a huge boom time for the last few years, sure they take a bit of a hit when it comes to offers of cheap miller of whatever but they have never had it so good. It just means consumers take another hit to increase their already increasing profits.

Duggy747 · 31-07-2007 04:15PM

Hmmm, didn't they say before that Off-Licenses were delighted the smoking ban came in and more people were drinking at home (€€€€€€€€€ for the offeys) so I find this incredibly odd that they are proposing this legislation, especially the below-cost one on large stores which sounds strangely suspicious.

rubadub · 31-07-2007 06:04PM

Duggy747 wrote:

Hmmm, didn't they say before that Off-Licenses were delighted the smoking ban came in and more people were drinking at home (€€€€€€€€€ for the offeys) so I find this incredibly odd that they are proposing this legislation, especially the below-cost one on large stores which sounds strangely suspicious.

I dont think it is odd at all. The smoking ban is in so people will drink at home, they can guy drink at any time, it is not like it is going to go bad like a resting pint.

Like any drug dealer they would prefer to bang all their deals out in as short a time as possible, in as high a quanity as possible. This way their staff and overhead costs are much lower, they would probably love it if you could only sell for a few hours on a saturday or something. That way people would know this and stock up, possibly overstock like what happens at christmas & good friday.

Supermarkets are selling below cost and are open 24hrs, so they take full advantage of the late opening hours while offies have little business at that time and have to pay premium wages.

They moan about below cost selling yet offer cheap booze themselves and are still in business. This reminds me of the drop in cd prices in stores here when everybody started buying online. The bastards had a cozy cartel before this (cd sellers & offies).

15 years ago (christ I am old) you wouldnt see a cheapo can for under £1, while now there are plenty of €1 cans & bottles.

Drinkers rights and threats to them

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