Romanian threads, ATM lies

passive · 22-07-2007 02:36PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simplesam
Wrong-o buddy. What happens to the card after the gypsy pulls it out? Do they give it back? Drop it on the ground? Many of these accounts completely miss out on what happens to an item arguably more valuable than the money withdrawn.

Either A) victim takes out card, THEN gypsy pulls out moneys or

Gypsy takes card and drops it, throws it away, eats it, turns it into a butterfly, who f*cking cares. They don't know your pincode, cash is immediate gain. The card isn't important here and its existence and the fact that it comes out first does not mean, in any way, that people can not/do not grab money at ATMs.

:
You should be banned for a crack like that. Personal abuse much?

And I'm perfectly willing to be... Truth shall out! Though initially it meant present tense, as in you're being an idiot right now in this argument. I may upgrade you to a more continuous present shortly if you keep this up.

Laslo · 22-07-2007 03:00PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

...bringing their own prejuidices with them, and bouncing them off the few stormfront characters here?

Tsk! 'Stormfront' - the battle cry of every liberal moron. :rolleyes:

Bottom line - these beggars shouldn't be in this country. Get them working and contributing positively to society or rid of them. They're not allowed work? Get rid of them. I'm not prejudiced - just realist.

Terry · 22-07-2007 03:14PM

passive wrote:

Either A) victim takes out card, THEN gypsy pulls out moneys or Gypsy takes card and drops it, throws it away, eats it, turns it into a butterfly, who f*cking cares. They don't know your pincode, cash is immediate gain. The card isn't important here and its existence and the fact that it comes out first does not mean, in any way, that people can not/do not grab money at ATMs.

And I'm perfectly willing to be... Truth shall out! Though initially it meant present tense, as in you're being an idiot right now in this argument. I may upgrade you to a more continuous present shortly if you keep this up.

Trolling. Banned.

SimpleSam06 · 22-07-2007 03:20PM

griffdaddy wrote:

The African-American community don't use past hurts as a scapegoat, neither can it be used as a scapegoat for the Roma.

Actually many of them still do. Some are trying to claim reparations from the US government. However they do have an enormous level of support in the US, as well as some of the strictest anti-racism laws on earth. Unlike the Roma in Europe, who were still seen as being basically animals as late as the forties (they joined the Jews in the gas chambers there). To a great extent, they still are seen that way. Its very difficult to integrate in that environment.

griffdaddy wrote:

We don't owe them anything, we didn't hurt them in the past.

I agree with you here completely. However, have spoken to more than a few Eastern Europeans, it pains me to see the same knee jerk nonsense being spouted about the Roma and parroted across boards more than it should be.

griffdaddy wrote:

I certainly doubt it's a result of Eastern European immigrants influencing and goading irish racists on though, that's a fairly odd theory.

Not in the slightest. You've never seen how an idea catches on and becomes canon? As they say, a lie travels around the world twice in the time it takes the truth to get out of bed.

Papad wrote:

Roma gypsies have been arrested for a variety of crimes... Problems with Roma gypsies have been encountered across Europe for years... a considerable number of the women, including those with babies, are taken by cars and coaches from the site to beg while some of the men are suspected of being involved in crime... site suspected of shoplifting and muggings... It is believed this was part of the remittance that families here send back to crime bosses in Romania.

Yup, great, and I don't deny that many Roma are involved in criminal activities, much the same as many travellers here in Ireland are. However, as the link I've already posted made clear, there have been problems with gypsies in Europe for centuries, which probably have more to do with the European attitude towards gypsies than vice-versa. Slavery, for example?

My point is this particular crime does not happen nearly as much as people make out, if at all, so what's going on when people claim that it does? These responses are not proportionate to what's going on at ground level! Its symptomatic of a witchhunt, and frankly knee jerk reactionism, and that is what I'm speaking out against here. None of the crimes you menton above cover what we're talking about.

passive wrote:

Either A) victim takes out card, THEN gypsy pulls out moneys

Oho, but a minute ago they were pressing the €200 button! And what if someone is just topping up or checking their balance or paying a bill through the ATM? No money for you, Mr Gypsy, just a spell in the big house.

Laslo wrote:

Tsk! 'Stormfront' - the battle cry of every liberal moron.

Well first of all, as many here can attest, I'm generally not in favour of migrants, or at least the quantities of them rolling into the country in the last few years (is that some kind of anti "well I'm not a racist" comment?

).

Second of all, this isn't the USA, so what exactly liberal means in this context is anyone's guess. My guess however would be that you spend too much time on American websites, or possibly watching their news channels, god help you.

Third of all, this personal abuse highlights exactly what I am saying. Knee jerk with nary a thought to break up the monotony. Good luck with that.

Tar.Aldarion · 22-07-2007 03:22PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

You can't withdraw money from an ATM until the card comes out and is extracted, but I never heard of any of them swiping ATM cards. Also it makes a loud insistent beeping noise too, you can't miss it even on a busily trafficked road. This happens with every ATM I have ever used, it would seem to be a standard design feature. Many of the supposed victims we see on boards make no mention of this whatsoever in their harrowing tale of crime.

This makes the ATM robberies by waving newspapers in your face basically nonsense.

No it is not nonsense, I saw it happen in Eyre Square in Galway. Two young guys waving papers in the guys face, he took out his card, they snatched the money when it came out and ran, he chased them briefly...
Just because thee ATM beeps and you have to take out your card before money gets out, does not mean it does not happen. It may be exaggerated in a lot of cases though.

Terry · 22-07-2007 03:30PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Just because thee ATM beeps and you have to take out your card before money gets out, does not mean it does not happen. It may be exaggerated in a lot of cases though.

Exactly.
There are two sides to every story.

There have been links to newspaper reports about these crimes happening, yet you (Simple Sam) seem to ignore them.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

My point is this particular crime does not happen nearly as much as people make out, if at all, so what's going on when people claim that it does?

It has been proven that it happens.
It may not happen as much as some people make out, but the proof is there for you to see.

As for the M.O., I'm sure it's different in each case.

And what if someone is just topping up or checking their balance or paying a bill through the ATM? No money for you, Mr Gypsy, just a spell in the big house.

And rightly so.
They are still attempting to rob someone and the last time I checked, that was against the law.

Stark · 22-07-2007 03:36PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

In my experience they are literally no more of a menace than winos or chuggers, and I give them about as much regard.

AH had a long phase where every second thread was a chuggers thread so you can't complain about them being left out.

griffdaddy wrote:

You left out that these horrible rascist Irish people are operating in conjunction with a cynical new breed of Eastern European rascist immigrant.

I hope you're only calling the white Eastern Europeans racist, because you know you can't say anything bad about non-white people

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Well considering that legal slavery and branding of Roma gypsies was practised as lately as the 1850s, its fair to say that both sides could point fingers. You could compare the social difficulties of many African-Americans in the US quite reasonably, or the general Eastern European attitude towards the Jews.

A lot changes in 150 years. Ireland used to be a British colony with plenty of cause for bitterness but here in 2007, anti-British sentiment would be considered rather unsavoury. Africans and Jews got a **** deal altogether (the Jews being persecuted throughout history), but at least they're working to make things better. You don't see the offspring of persecuted Jews going around begging and committing petty crimes.

SimpleMan06 wrote:

Does not fly. I could say the same thing about itinerants, crusties, take your pick. This doesn't explain the enormous number of anti Roma threads on boards.

AH had its fair share of travellers threads too.

griffdaddy wrote:

There's usually a huge amount of itinerant threads on after hours, I don't know what you mean by crusties. You are right though, there does seem to be a disproportionate amount of Roma threads, maybe numbers in the country have increased or something? I certainly doubt it's a result of Eastern European immigrants influencing and goading irish racists on though, that's a fairly odd theory.

I think it's the association between Romania and Roma and Romania's recent accession to the EU that's giving people the impression that they're arrived here suddenly. I remember them being around for years though.

Terry · 22-07-2007 03:42PM

Stark wrote:

I think it's the association between Romania and Roma and Romania's recent accession to the EU that's giving people the impression that they're arrived here suddenly. I remember them being around for years though.

Yep.
I remember being stuck in traffic in Palmerstown about 6 or 7 years ago and seening a Roma woman go into the bushes at the side of the road and take a dump.
She then returned to the traffic lights and continued to beg.

eth0_ · 22-07-2007 03:48PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Wrong-o buddy. What happens to the card after the gypsy pulls it out? Do they give it back? Drop it on the ground? Many of these accounts completely miss out on what happens to an item arguably more valuable than the money withdrawn.

I'm increasingly convinced you are a troll, but, whatever.
Some ATM's give you the money BEFORE you receive your ATM card. Either BOI or Ulster bank, iirc. And of course all the in-store ATM's you swipe your card through before you even enter your PIN.

I wonder what your reaction will be if a Roma gypsy robs you? :rolleyes:

Saw two arrested yesterday at Stephen Green luas for pick pocketing. If you stand around Stephen Green long enough you can often see a pair of Roma kids acting suspiciously around ATM's and begging aggresively.

SimpleSam06 · 22-07-2007 03:48PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

No it is not nonsense, I saw it happen in Eyre Square in Galway. Two young guys waving papers in the guys face, he took out his card, they snatched the money when it came out and ran, he chased them briefly...

How did he see the ATM to get his card when they were waving papers in his face? Did they politely move aside until he had taken it out, then pounce? Although I can see that happening. In any case, thats an entirely different story to the usual, in which the gypsies press the button and pull out the money before legging it.

Terry wrote:

There have been links to newspaper reports about these crimes happening, yet you (Simple Sam) seem to ignore them.

I'm pointing out what I feel are inconsistencies in the stories. Whether its in print or on the internet, there is usually little in the way of peer review for such tales. I mean what, are the gypsies going to sue for slander?

Terry wrote:

They are still attempting to rob someone and the last time I checked, that was against the law.

I absoloutely agree. What I'm concerned about is the sheer quantity of anti-Roma posts and threads popping up all over the place here. I mean begging is legal in Ireland; its not something I think is good or should be supported, but it's not against the law. As regards the percentage of crimes they are responsible for, I've yet to see statistics, but I wager its a good deal less than the native population.

Frankly, the general tone of things is not conducive to helping them integrate, which is the only real solution that exists, unless you want to deport them to "Roma-land". Maybe they don't want to integrate, but the door should be open, and clearly open. Thats the mistake that has lead to their continuing nomadic existence throughout Europe, as far as I can see, and its a mistake I'd rather not see us repeating.

Stark wrote:

You don't see the offspring of persecuted Jews going around begging and committing petty crimes.

You don't see the offspring of persecuted Jews still being persecuted though.

Terry · 22-07-2007 04:00PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I mean what, are the gypsies going to sue for slander?

Wouldn't be the first time.

What I'm concerned about is the sheer quantity of anti-Roma posts and threads popping up all over the place here. I mean begging is legal in Ireland; its not something I think is good or should be supported, but it's not against the law.

See Stark's point about chuggers and the Irish travelling community.

Frankly, the general tone of things is not conducive to helping them integrate, which is the only real solution that exists, unless you want to deport them to "Roma-land".

The two most recent threads in AH about Roma people were regarding those camped on the M50.
This family are Romanian citizens, therefore "Roma-Land" for them is Romania.

Maybe they don't want to integrate, but the door should be open, and clearly open. Thats the mistake that has lead to their continuing nomadic existence throughout Europe, as far as I can see, and its a mistake I'd rather not see us repeating.

Your sentiments are all well and good, but are not at all viable.
Having an open door policy for Roma people would inevitably lead to a large influx, which in turn would lead to strong resentment.
Also, you cannot open the door for one group of people and not have it open to all. The infrastructure in this country can barely cope with the people currently living here. More people equals more problems, because the government would rather give themselves more money that invest in hospitals and all other neccesseties.

TCollins · 22-07-2007 04:09PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Its not just that it beeps, and remember this part, you need to withdraw the ATM card first, which is quite difficult to do since the machine holds it quite firmly.

ROFL
Exactly how firmly does the machine hold your card?

Has anyone here apart from SimpleSam ever found it difficult to remove a card or cash from an ATM machine?

I think not.

Would you concede here SimpleSam that you are indeed trolling? Or do you really think that removing an ATM card or Cash is difficult because it is held "quite firmly"?

SimpleSam06 · 22-07-2007 04:20PM

Terry wrote:

Your sentiments are all well and good, but are not at all viable.
Having an open door policy for Roma people would inevitably lead to a large influx, which in turn would lead to strong resentment.

Nono, you picked me up wrong. Definetely stop as many as possible coming in, but we have a significant population of them here already. I meant open the doors to social integration to them, if they cannot be returned to wherever they came from. What alternatives are there? I can't think of any. The major featuring of what I would call a minor problem on the site is cause for concern, and not helping anyone. Its particularily ugly in that it targets one ethnic group.

TCollins wrote:

Would you concede here SimpleSam that you are indeed trolling? Or do you really think that removing an ATM card or Cash is difficult because it is held "quite firmly"?

Actually a troll is someone that steps into an existing debate in order to start a fight or cause trouble. ATM machines are designed in a way that makes it difficult for anyone not standing directly in front of it (ie, a legitimate user) to yank out the card. Basic engineering, really.

Now, back under your bridge, like a good lad.

eth0_ · 22-07-2007 04:25PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

ATM machines are designed in a way that makes it difficult for anyone not standing directly in front of it (ie, a legitimate user) to yank out the card. Basic engineering, really..

Not all of them, as already pointed out. I can think of one or two who give you the money and THEN give you your card back.

SimpleSam06 · 22-07-2007 04:27PM

eth0_ wrote:

Not all of them, as already pointed out. I can think of one or two who give you the money and THEN give you your card back.

Those are mostly inside closed shops and areas like that, however. I'd think people would be less likely to do make an effort at this in a place which already has a security guard and/or door. Certainly doesn't qualify for "ever found it difficult", as T for Troll collins was making out.

is_that_so · 22-07-2007 04:28PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Frankly, the general tone of things is not conducive to helping them integrate, which is the only real solution that exists, unless you want to deport them to "Roma-land". Maybe they don't want to integrate, but the door should be open, and clearly open. Thats the mistake that has lead to their continuing nomadic existence throughout Europe, as far as I can see, and its a mistake I'd rather not see us repeating.

IMO there is some selective truth on both sides of the argument about the criminality of these people. Just because it hasn't happened to you or any one you know does not make it untrue in as much as if it has happened does not make it widespread.

One of the problems in integrating a group like the Roma or our own Travellers is their professed "otherness" and their continued demands to be able to continue that lifestyle. Short of living in the Papua rain forests this is all but impossible with the changes in life around us.

TBH I am not sure that integration is even part of the debate. Considering we don't even have a proper immigration policy or a solution to own "people" it is premature to add the Roma to that problem. As observed in yesterday's Irish Times this is in fact a European issue and the most we can do and should be doing at this point is push for a pan-European solution to it.

eth0_ · 22-07-2007 04:35PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Those are mostly inside closed shops and areas like that, however. I'd think people would be less likely to do make an effort at this in a place which already has a security guard and/or door. Certainly doesn't qualify for "ever found it difficult", as T for Troll collins was making out.

Not true. Either Ulster Bank or BOI ATM's give the cash back first (can't remember which).

The only person who is coming across as a troll here is you, i'm afraid.

Terry · 22-07-2007 04:40PM

Cut out the petty name calling.
I really don't want to lock another thread.

(That goes for everyone.)

If you think someone is trolling, report the post (s).

Hobbes · 22-07-2007 04:43PM

eth0_ wrote:

Not true. Either Ulster Bank or BOI ATM's give the cash back first (can't remember which).

Certainly BOI don't. The pattern of how it gives you stuff is to stop you loosing your card more then anything else.

1. Card spits out.
2. Loud beeps.
3. Take card. if you don't ATM eats the card.
4. Take cash.

Now if it is take cash first you are more likely to walk off without your card. Although the ATM will still eat the card if it is sitting there.

One of the problems in integrating a group like the Roma...

Please see earlier comment.

Hobbes · 22-07-2007 04:45PM

TCollins wrote:

Has anyone here apart from SimpleSam ever found it difficult to remove a card or cash from an ATM machine?

I think not.

Wait till you see the newer models. They just barely give you enough room to grab your card. It is to stop someone overlaying the ATM with a fake reader.

SimpleSam06 · 22-07-2007 04:47PM

is_that_so wrote:

TBH I am not sure that integration is even part of the debate. Considering we don't even have a proper immigration policy or a solution to own "people" it is premature to add the Roma to that problem. As observed in yesterday's Irish Times this is in fact a European issue and the most we can do and should be doing at this point is push for a pan-European solution to it.

I agree, its just that I don't see any other options than integration, whether here or in the wider European context. I still hold that the spotlight being focused on Roma gypsies in particular is an unhealthy pastime, since its a vicious circle - they do what they do since people don't give them a lot of other options, and they don't have a lot of other options because they do what they do.

Its got to end somewhere.

Huggles · 22-07-2007 04:58PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I agree, its just that I don't see any other options than integration, whether here or in the wider European context. I still hold that the spotlight being focused on Roma gypsies in particular is an unhealthy pastime, since its a vicious circle - they do what they do since people don't give them a lot of other options, and they don't have a lot of other options because they do what they do.

Its got to end somewhere.

How many more times do we have to go through this.

Damn right they are being targeted, as far as I can see hey are the only group that contribute, zip, nothing, zero, zilch to our society, they are a drain on us. I guess I am a racist for telling the truth now.

They do what they do because over time they have always done what they do as part of their culture and tradition. Its nowt to do with options. Rightly so they have no options in Ireland so slan leat, get the fúck out.

Exactly why should we "people" give them options? We didn't ask them to come here.

billy the squid · 22-07-2007 05:10PM

Up until recently bank of Ireland machines used to give you the money first, this does not happen any more.

Papad · 22-07-2007 05:15PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

As regards the percentage of crimes they are responsible for, I've yet to see statistics, but I wager its a good deal less than the native population.

So you are saying that the Roma gypsies are responsible for a good deal less crime as a percentage of the total amount of Roma gypsies in the country, than the native Irish people as a whole.

I will take that wager.

(No need for you to retort with proof requests).

SimpleSam06 · 22-07-2007 05:27PM

TheGooner wrote:

Damn right they are being targeted, as far as I can see hey are the only group that contribute, zip, nothing, zero, zilch to our society, they are a drain on us. I guess I am a racist for telling the truth now.

I can't really argue with a lot of the points here about the ingrained nature of Roma gypsy behaviour, I'd just rather not see this country sink into the sewers of hate and discrimination that most of Europe has descended to with regard to them. So what if everyone else west of Afghanistan thinks they are vermin, lets be the first to do something useful with them!

Alternately, its really not our problem, as TheGooner pointed out. Deport them back to the people who made them. I have serious doubts about our ability to keep them out of Ireland in either the short or the long term however (I mean they managed to get in, in the first place), so maybe other options should be considered?

Papad wrote:

So you are saying that the Roma gypsies are responsible for a good deal less crime as a percentage of the total amount of Roma gypsies in the country, than the native Irish people as a whole.

I didn't say per capita, why are you making out that I did?

Tha Gopher · 22-07-2007 05:29PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I was thinking the last day there about the number of "Romanian" threads on AH, yes I know its "Roma gypsy", and it struck me that a lot of the posts remind me of comments I had heard about the Roma from Eastern Europeans, I mean almost word for word at times.. I mean, I read about the antisocial behaviour, the in-your-face begging, and the ATM swipings, but then another poster (can't recall now, credit yourself if you see this) pointed out a simple fact:

You can't withdraw money from an ATM until the card comes out and is extracted, but I never heard of any of them swiping ATM cards. Also it makes a loud insistent beeping noise too, you can't miss it even on a busily trafficked road. This happens with every ATM I have ever used, it would seem to be a standard design feature. Many of the supposed victims we see on boards make no mention of this whatsoever in their harrowing tale of crime.

This makes the ATM robberies by waving newspapers in your face basically nonsense. So that makes me wonder what else might be nonsense? In my own experience the worst they have done is begging, and that puts them up on the nuisance meter with chuggers and winos - I'm happy to ignore them. I mean nobody likes a useless fecker, but thats still no reason for the depth of bile that's filling the place up.

So, the unreasonable jihads embarked upon by many posters against Roma gypsies - are these posters in fact mostly or all Eastern European, bringing their own prejuidices with them, and bouncing them off the few stormfront characters here?

In the UK 85% of those convicted of ATM fraud are Romanian, according to the BBC. Id hazard a guess that the majority are gypsies.

Huggles · 22-07-2007 05:30PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I can't really argue with a lot of the points here about the ingrained nature of Roma gypsy behaviour, I'd just rather not see this country sink into the sewers of hate and discrimination that most of Europe has descended to with regard to them. So what if everyone else west of Afghanistan thinks they are vermin, lets be the first to do something useful with them!

*Smacks forehead*

These people are not going to change, we have our own homegrown vermin to deal with first.

Why do we have to treat them differently? Because we're Irish? Please explain where your coming from I don't get it.

joseph brand · 22-07-2007 05:31PM

My Fiance and her mother were travelling into town by bus one day. My Fiance noticed a Roma Gypsie sitting beside an old Irish woman.

The Gypsy had a big coat over her lap with only one arm showing. Her left arm, which was closest to the old lady was underneath the coat and gradually making it's way towards her handbag.

My fiance left her seat and headed up to the driver to inform him. He then called the old lady up to the front and directed her to a seat near the door. The Gypsy was now on her own.

That same gypsy was seen getting off the bus and getting onto another one straight after, probably with the intention of finishing what she started.

Her 12 kids were probably each out begging and making a coule of hundred euros each. Her husband/brother was probably out fixing a scanning device to an ATM for some of us unsuspecting 'civilised people' to fall prey to!

No wonder people want to 'et it off there chest', the disgust they feel towards these, . . . dare I say People???

BTW Simplesam, I like your username. :P

Why don't the do-gooders help he handicapped or homeless Irish and stop worrying about those who can well take care of themselves.

joseph brand · 22-07-2007 05:34PM

so maybe other options should be considered?

From SimpleSam06

Like what? Some magical use of the gypsies which no other country has figured out. Maybe they can tell our fortunes and steal our dogs?

Huggles · 22-07-2007 05:35PM

joseph brand wrote:

From SimpleSam06

Like what? Some magical use of the gypsies which no other country has figured out. Maybe they can tell our fortunes and steal our dogs?

LOL

Chimney sweeps - think Oliver

Romanian threads, ATM lies

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