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Romanian threads, ATM lies

  • 22-07-2007 09:11AM
    #1
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭


    I was thinking the last day there about the number of "Romanian" threads on AH, yes I know its "Roma gypsy", and it struck me that a lot of the posts remind me of comments I had heard about the Roma from Eastern Europeans, I mean almost word for word at times.. I mean, I read about the antisocial behaviour, the in-your-face begging, and the ATM swipings, but then another poster (can't recall now, credit yourself if you see this) pointed out a simple fact:

    You can't withdraw money from an ATM until the card comes out and is extracted, but I never heard of any of them swiping ATM cards. Also it makes a loud insistent beeping noise too, you can't miss it even on a busily trafficked road. This happens with every ATM I have ever used, it would seem to be a standard design feature. Many of the supposed victims we see on boards make no mention of this whatsoever in their harrowing tale of crime.

    This makes the ATM robberies by waving newspapers in your face basically nonsense. So that makes me wonder what else might be nonsense? In my own experience the worst they have done is begging, and that puts them up on the nuisance meter with chuggers and winos - I'm happy to ignore them. I mean nobody likes a useless fecker, but thats still no reason for the depth of bile that's filling the place up.

    So, the unreasonable jihads embarked upon by many posters against Roma gypsies - are these posters in fact mostly or all Eastern European, bringing their own prejuidices with them, and bouncing them off the few stormfront characters here?


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Comments

  • #2
    Crucifix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,437 ✭✭✭Crucifix


    I know the card ejects first, but do you have to take it for the money to be dispensed?


  • #3
    aphex™
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭aphex™


    Look, a lad was arrested and brought to court for doing this. It was reported about a month ago. He distracted the people and took their money, can't remember nationality. It happens.


  • #4
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    Crucifix wrote:
    I know the card ejects first, but do you have to take it for the money to be dispensed?
    Yup, and it makes a loud beep beep noise while you do that.


  • #5
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    aphex&#8482 wrote:
    Look, a lad was arrested and brought to court for doing this. It was reported about a month ago. He distracted the people and took their money, can't remember nationality.
    I seem to remember an isolated incident of a girl being brought to court for snatching money from people's hands after they withdrew it, but to say its a widespread practise is just nuts. I mean you'd want to be insane to make a regular deal of it, which is why even the hardened criminals around Ireland don't do it. Even if children can't be prosecuted, they can be taken from their parents. It just doesn't add up.


  • #6
    Huggles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,408 ✭✭✭Huggles


    aphex&#8482 wrote:
    Look, a lad was arrested and brought to court for doing this. It was reported about a month ago. He distracted the people and took their money, can't remember nationality. It happens.

    Thats correct, He was 13 or 14, and a Roma Gypsy.

    It was on the news sites OP, not folk coming in saying it happened to them.


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  • #7
    Ciaran500
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,225 ✭✭✭Ciaran500


    So because the machine beeps it would be impossible for anyone to try distract you to take the money, and anyone who posted saying that is lying.


    Yeah, BS :rolleyes:


  • #8
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    Ciaran500 wrote:
    So because the machine beeps it would be impossible for anyone to try distract you to take the money, and anyone who posted saying that is lying.
    Its not just that it beeps, and remember this part, you need to withdraw the ATM card first, which is quite difficult to do since the machine holds it quite firmly.

    Furthermore it doesn't explain the number of "Roma" threads popping up all over the place, since I still hold that even if it is taking place, its not widespread. You don't see nearly as much vitriol being directed towards other "undesireable" sections of the community. Putting two and two together, large number of easter european migrants coming to Ireland, eastern europeans have a noted and unreasonable hatred for Roma, number of anti-Roma threads rising sharply, well, you see where I am going with this...

    In my experience they are literally no more of a menace than winos or chuggers, and I give them about as much regard.
    TheGooner wrote:
    Thats correct, He was 13 or 14, and a Roma Gypsy.
    Was it snatching or ATM "popping"? Because I thought that was at least a two man job. A bit like pickpocketing; you get one guy to pick the pockets, he passes it off to another guy, those two rabbit while a third guy runs interference and hassles the victim.

    You'd want to be invincibly stupid to try to make a living doing that alone.


  • #9
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Ciaran500 wrote:
    So because the machine beeps it would be impossible for anyone to try distract you to take the money, and anyone who posted saying that is lying.
    I remember on the Joe Duffy show about a year ago, a few women called up who had been robbed in this way by a Mother/Daughter Roma team and proceeded to chase them up Talbot St.

    It does happen.


  • #10
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    DublinWriter wrote:
    I remember on the Joe Duffy show about a year ago, a few women called up who had been robbed in this way by a Mother/Daughter Roma team and proceeded to chase them up Talbot St.

    It does happen.
    And what a quality journalistic resource the Joe Duffy show is, to be sure. Since there are at least two cameras on every ATM in the nation, surely this mother/daughter team have been prosecuted for their crimes since? Their MO and exposure levels must have made their arrest and prosecution a swift and straightforward affair?

    Which in turn should have sent a clear message to anyone else thinking of pulling a stunt like that?

    Edit: And just how fast can a person wearing a full length multi layered dress run, exactly? Which is what the Roma women all wear...

    Gypsies did this, gypsies did that, gypsies threatened poor Pablo working in the corner store before climbing into their mercedes with plastic bags stuffed with cash, gypsies slept with my girlfriend and stole half my socks (left foot socks), gypsies emptied every ATM on grafton street, and so on. Bollocks on it. I don't buy half of it, and I don't like that a lot of people do.

    Yes they are unsavoury, or at best very alien. No, they don't deserve the incredible amounts of bile being levelled at them around boards.ie.


  • #11
    Hobbes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    aphex&#8482 wrote:
    Look, a lad was arrested and brought to court for doing this. It was reported about a month ago. He distracted the people and took their money, can't remember nationality. It happens.

    Do you have a link to the story or more details? Not calling you a liar, just this is the first I have heard of it.

    The OP is correct though. You must remove your card before any money is dispensed. The only ATMs which don't do this are the ones you get in Spar shops. Which isn't normally part of this urban legend.

    Your more likely to get your number stolen with an ATM attachment then this.


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  • #12
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,414 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    It's not just an eastern europe issue though, it's pan-european. No other group seems to be as widely condemned by every side of society as the Roma, even many liberals would have a problem with them. Personally, i hate them, there's nothing wrong with begging passively, but when a group of Roma start aggressively hassling people in a town square or restaurant etc. it becomes absolutely intolerable. I was in Burger King on O'Connell street (Dublin) a few weeks back and one of them came in and started putting her hand in front of peoples faces while they were eating. She got thrown out before she made it to my table, but if she had done, she'd be hoping they make gold prosthetic fingers and thumbs! :D


  • #13
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,608 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Lets face it guys.

    The Roma gypies are pillar's of European society and all that ol' rubbish about them begging, robbing ATM user's, shop lifting, destroying a landscaped roundabout on the M50 and lands adjacent to it etc, etc....(by x50) are just a pack of lie's made up by horrible racist Irish people.

    In every other country the Roma visit they're welcomed with open arms, aren't they?.

    Shame on us.

    As regards the ATM's, well I've personally never witnessed any intimidation by Roma people. But then I'm 6'3'' 120kgs and most people wouldn't try fvck me over too easy.


  • #14
    Tipsy Mac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,559 ✭✭✭Tipsy Mac


    The thing is if you compare statistically the amount of foreign people caught for ATM related crime or card clonning in Ireland there's a huge amount more the amount of foreigners per head of population to Irish involved in this type of crime, it's the same with drink driving and stabbings, this is not being racist or in any way discriminatory, this is fact.

    PS Hopefully I am allowed use the term foreign, if not substitute it with "non national" or whatever floats your PC boat.


  • #15
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,414 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    Mairt wrote:
    Lets face it guys.

    The Roma gypies are pillar's of European society and all that ol' rubbish about them begging, robbing ATM user's, shop lifting, destroying a landscaped roundabout on the M50 and lands adjacent to it etc, etc....(by x50) are just a pack of lie's made up by horrible racist Irish people.
    You left out that these horrible rascist Irish people are operating in conjunction with a cynical new breed of Eastern European rascist immigrant.


  • #16
    aphex™
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭aphex™


    Hobbes wrote:
    Do you have a link to the story or more details? Not calling you a liar, just this is the first I have heard of it.

    The OP is correct though. You must remove your card before any money is dispensed. The only ATMs which don't do this are the ones you get in Spar shops. Which isn't normally part of this urban legend.

    Your more likely to get your number stolen with an ATM attachment then this.
    Look the scam works. And here is a Roma kid doing it. Clicky.
    That is from the 18th July.
    EDIT 1: And here it is happening in Carlow. Non-national at it.
    EDIT 2: Dunboyne Romanian - false front scam http://www.meathchronicle.ie/news/in-custody-on-bank-atm-scam-charge-996801.html


  • #17
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    griffdaddy wrote:
    It's not just an eastern europe issue though, it's pan-european. No other group seems to be as widely condemned by every side of society as the Roma, even many liberals would have a problem with them.
    Well considering that legal slavery and branding of Roma gypsies was practised as lately as the 1850s, its fair to say that both sides could point fingers. You could compare the social difficulties of many African-Americans in the US quite reasonably, or the general Eastern European attitude towards the Jews.
    Tipsy Mac wrote:
    The thing is if you compare statistically the amount of foreign people caught for ATM related crime or card clonning in Ireland there's a huge amount more the amount of foreigners per head of population to Irish involved in this type of crime
    Show me these statistics.
    griffdaddy wrote:
    She got thrown out before she made it to my table, but if she had done, she'd be hoping they make gold prosthetic fingers and thumbs! :D
    Yes, and I saw a wino shambling into McDOnalds the last day, starting roaring at the customers before urinating in a bin. You don't see every third post on AH boards complaining about winos, though, do you.


  • #18
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    aphex&#8482 wrote:
    Look the scam works. And here is a Roma kid doing it. Clicky.
    That is from the 18th July.
    And here it is happening in Carlow.
    That "reporter" should be fired.
    They are then approached by the skilled con artists who distract them by pretending to be selling magazines which they wave in the victims face, blocking the ATM screen and keypad from view.
    Another con artist sneaks in and presses the button telling the machine to withdraw E200 which they then snatch before vanishing.
    Skilled con artist my hole. This scenario literally could not happen. Why, its almost like someone designed the ATMs specifically to prevent just such an attack. :eek:


  • #19
    aphex™
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,337 ✭✭✭aphex™


    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    Skilled con artist my hole. This scenario literally could not happen. Why, its almost like someone designed the ATMs specifically to prevent just such an attack. :eek:
    Now you're just ****ing delusional. It's a conspiracy by the newspapers to damage the reputation of the hard working Roma people, is it?


  • #20
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,414 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    Well considering that legal slavery and branding of Roma gypsies was practised as lately as the 1850s, its fair to say that both sides could point fingers. You could compare the social difficulties of many African-Americans in the US quite reasonably, or the general Eastern European attitude towards the Jews.
    I don't think you really could to be honest, and i think many African Americans would be pretty pissed off to hear you say that. They were a forcibly displaced population put into slavery and treated like sh1t in a country they were directly or indirectly made live in. Roma gypsies are here by choice, and their actions are not the manifestation of any social difficulties, let's get that clear right now. If they were experiencing any kind of social difficulty they'd cash in their gold teeth, and that may sound flippant, but i'm not joking.


    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    Yes, and I saw a wino shambling into McDOnalds the last day, starting roaring at the customers before urinating in a bin. You don't see every third post on AH boards complaining about winos, though, do you.
    No, because that person has a physical and mental illness known as alcoholism that makes him act in a way that is (more than likely) completely different to how he would act should he not have that illness. There's nothing to imply that Roma are non compos mentis and therefore there would appear to be absolutely no mitigating factors that would explain or excuse their deviation from what is socially acceptably, that's what makes people angry.


  • #21
    biko
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,060 ✭✭✭✭biko


    It happened to these users
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53406993&postcount=1
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53408656&postcount=35

    Roma boy and girl http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/?jp=MHKFCWQLKFAU&rss=rss1
    http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/migration/girl-13-on-atm-scam-charges-668538.html


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  • #22
    Love2love
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭Love2love


    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    You can't withdraw money from an ATM until the card comes out and is extracted, but I never heard of any of them swiping ATM cards.

    Eh, wrong.
    Some ATM you are required to insert and remove the card before continuing to withdraw money.


  • #23
    stepbar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    Ask the Gardai in Store St.. they've been down to my branch twice in the last number of months and have arrested roma people for trying to rob our customers. The last lad had 500eur in his hand before he was apprehended by the security guard.


  • #24
    Wompa1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,360 ✭✭✭Wompa1


    It is possible that its not as widespread as its made out to be but isn't it also possible that they wait for the person to take the card out?, because the money takes a few seconds to come out the slot after you take the card out anyways?...And if you've only had to witness Romanians begging consider yourself lucky, when your working in a shop and a crowd of Romanians come in, its almost impossible to stop them from getting out with something, a place I worked in less than a year ago, a big group of Romanians came in and stole alot and ran out, one of the guys went after them and a little 12 year old girl pulled out a knife and swung it to stop him chasing them, they then got on a bus, the gardai were called but sure enough they didn't catch them


  • #25
    stepbar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,123 ✭✭✭stepbar


    Love2love wrote:
    Eh, wrong.
    Some ATM you are required to insert and remove the card before continuing to withdraw money.

    Correct, but the "hole in the wall" usually requires you to take the card from the ATM before money is dispenced.


  • #26
    Hobbes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,264 ✭✭✭✭Hobbes


    aphex&#8482 wrote:
    Now you're just ****ing delusional. It's a conspiracy by the newspapers to damage the reputation of the hard working Roma people, is it?

    Well the 3 people surrounding an old woman and stealing her money sounds certainly viable. The last story is to a false ATM front which is not the same thing.

    But the way the ATM is designed on the street you cannot get the money until the card is removed and the machine beeps like crazy until you do. It will also eat the card if the card is not removed within a set time.

    Add to that the numerous cameras both overlooking the ATM and in the ATM itself. It is one of the more stupid ways to steal money. The fact the news stories tell of people caught it obviously doesn't work very well.

    Anyway the point is that this probably does happen but not in the story as an example. One of the linked stories about someone actually caught would suggest that at one time you could do this but it is not the case now.

    A bit like the "lebanese loop". ATMs have been designed to stop that too.

    Even the false fronts has been modified by some companies. For example the local ATM they changed the design so that if any false front is put on it the card will never return.

    And for the STUPID IN THE AUDIENCE. Roma != Romanian and 2 cases of a crime is not reflective of an overall community.


  • #27
    passive
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,403 ✭✭✭passive


    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    Its not just that it beeps, and remember this part, you need to withdraw the ATM card first, which is quite difficult to do since the machine holds it quite firmly.

    and then, and here's the crazy part, the money does come out! O_o. So any enterprising gypsy who managed to not be frightened away by the beeping, or mis-time their grab, can, hope you're still following me, still take the money in the way described in the above accounts and news articles.

    Stop being an idiot.

    (edit; Terry, the thread started with him saying that all those people saying Roma are doing this must be lying because they couldn't possibly have... yes, okay, insert race here applies just as much, but we're discussing whether or not this lot ARE doing it?)

    (edit2; hmmm... wait, are you actually correcting me for calling them gypsys or making fun of PC-ness... argh... my brain...)


  • #28
    Terry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,073 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    passive wrote:
    and then, and here's the crazy part, the money does come out! O_o. So any enterprising gypsy who managed to not be frightened away by the beeping, or mis-time their grab, can, hope you're still following me, still take the money in the way described in the above accounts and news articles.

    Stop being an idiot.
    So any enterprising <Insert race here> who managed to not be frightened away by the beeping, or mis-time their grab, can, hope you're still following me, still take the money in the way described in the above accounts and news articles.

    Tipsy Mac, I too would like to see those statistics.


  • #29
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    griffdaddy wrote:
    Roma gypsies are here by choice, and their actions are not the manifestation of any social difficulties, let's get that clear right now.
    Not social difficulties which arose in Ireland. That doesn't mean their society wasn't formed by social difficulties in other countries. Just because no one made a movie featuring Denzel about gypsies doesn't mean they haven't had similar or worse difficulties. Or was slavery in the US worse than slavery in Romania? Branding didn't sting as much, did it?
    griffdaddy wrote:
    therefore there would appear to be absolutely no mitigating factors that would explain or excuse their deviation from what is socially acceptably, that's what makes people angry.
    Does not fly. I could say the same thing about itinerants, crusties, take your pick. This doesn't explain the enormous number of anti Roma threads on boards.
    passive wrote:
    and then, and here's the crazy part, the money does come out! O_o. So any enterprising gypsy who managed to not be frightened away by the beeping, or mis-time their grab, can, hope you're still following me, still take the money in the way described in the above accounts and news articles.
    Wrong-o buddy. What happens to the card after the gypsy pulls it out? Do they give it back? Drop it on the ground? Many of these accounts completely miss out on what happens to an item arguably more valuable than the money withdrawn.
    passive wrote:
    Stop being an idiot.
    You should be banned for a crack like that. Personal abuse much?


  • #30
    griffdaddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,414 ✭✭✭griffdaddy


    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    Not social difficulties which arose in Ireland. That doesn't mean their society wasn't formed by social difficulties in other countries. Just because no one made a movie featuring Denzel about gypsies doesn't mean they haven't had similar or worse difficulties. Or was slavery in the US worse than slavery in Romania? Branding didn't sting as much, did it?
    Well i doubt either of the cases of branding hurt so much that they're still being felt 2 or 3 generations down the line. The African-American community don't use past hurts as a scapegoat, neither can it be used as a scapegoat for the Roma. The Roma make zero effort to integrate or start a contributory new life in the countries they inhabit, black Americans did and still do, AND still retain a strong identity of their heritage. Even if there actions are the result of social difficulties experienced elsewhere, that's too bad for them I'm afraid, if they come into Ireland with the intent of thieving and committing petty crimes they have no business here, simple as that. We don't owe them anything, we didn't hurt them in the past. My ancestors were socially marginalised by the English, I'm off to pick pockets and play the accordian on Oxford Street because i feel hard done by.

    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    Does not fly. I could say the same thing about itinerants, crusties, take your pick. This doesn't explain the enormous number of anti Roma threads on boards.
    There's usually a huge amount of itinerant threads on after hours, I don't know what you mean by crusties. You are right though, there does seem to be a disproportionate amount of Roma threads, maybe numbers in the country have increased or something? I certainly doubt it's a result of Eastern European immigrants influencing and goading irish racists on though, that's a fairly odd theory.


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  • #31
    Papad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 220 ✭✭Papad


    SimpleSam06 wrote:
    This makes the ATM robberies by waving newspapers in your face basically nonsense. So that makes me wonder what else might be nonsense?

    The following isn't nonsense (From Today's Independent):

    Gardai in Dublin city centre say that over the past year Roma gypsies have been arrested for a variety of crimes ranging from highly organised ATM fraud, involving cards either stolen or copied in other EU states, to handbag snatching, shoplifting and pilfering.

    Also from the same article:

    Problems with Roma gypsies have been encountered across Europe for years. Last year the French authorities uncovered a baby-selling ring operated by Roma gypsies, six of whom were convicted of buying 23 babies in Bulgaria for sale to desperate couples in France.

    And regarding our guests on the roundabout:

    Gardai, however, do not accept that the group is involuntarily destitute and believe that some are involved in crime. They have been monitoring the movements to and from the encampment over the last two months. Their surveillance has shown that a considerable number of the women, including those with babies, are taken by cars and coaches from the site to beg while some of the men are suspected of being involved in crime, including shoplifting and handbag snatching.

    Plain clothes garda units have been deployed in the city centre to target men and women from the site suspected of shoplifting and muggings, following an increase in complaints from shop owners and the public in the past two months.

    Garda sources have also confirmed that one of the older men was watched as he deposited €1,400 in a Western Union account at an office in O'Connell Street in Dublin earlier this month. It is believed this was part of the remittance that families here send back to crime bosses in Romania.


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