Pregnant teenagers buying tobacco

Boston · 10-06-2007 08:14PM

Igy wrote:

I'm not sure I follow you?
Surely there'd only be a crime committed if the barman WASN'T doing his job properly?

I think the point is, how about making it a crime to consume alcohol while pregnant. Place blame where it belongs.

10-06-2007 08:15PM

Collie D wrote:

Therefore criminalising the barman who is only doing his job?

Well, isn't it a part of his job not to sell booze to underage? Why not also the pregnant?

And to answer Boston, sure, the law should also cover the pregnant mother (who is harming her child). All parties concerned should be covered by the law.

Collie D · 10-06-2007 08:23PM

But a barman can easily check ID. Some pregnant women don't look pregnant and the same can be said of fat women who look pregnant. Should there be a limit, ie anyone who is more than three months pregnant...? How do you prove who is and who isn't? Urine tests before we hand over the booze?

scojones · 10-06-2007 08:37PM

Hehe, you're all going off on some mad tangent. I'll say it again, she can do what she likes to her own body, and to the baby inside of her. If you're prolife and you disagree with me, it's because you're being biased and don't know how to think for yourself.

Hagar · 10-06-2007 08:43PM

scojones wrote:

If you're prolife and you disagree with me, it's because you're being biased and don't know how to think for yourself.

Nothing like an inaccurate sweeping statement to back up your argument.
I could almost hear you saying "So there" and stamping your little foot after you typed that.

Boston · 10-06-2007 08:46PM

scojones wrote:

Hehe, you're all going off on some mad tangent. I'll say it again, she can do what she likes to her own body, and to the baby inside of her. If you're prolife and you disagree with me, it's because you're being biased and don't know how to think for yourself.

Feminist Dogma.

Wertz · 10-06-2007 08:51PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Regarding alcohol, there should be a law prohibiting the sale of booze to pregnant women, cause of the high incidence of FAS and FAE (Fetus Alcohol Syndrome and Fetus Alcohol Effects).

In a country where even to this day there are GPs who will "prescribe" the mother Guinness as a source of iron for the baby, draconian crap like that simply ain't gonna swing...

There should be no laws regarding the sale of drink to pregnant women...if you really want to go down that road then it should possibly be an offence to be over a certain limit of blood alcohol if you're with child, perhaps some sort of wreckless endangerment or something. But again it smacks of nanny state-ism; no thanks chuckles...

tallaght01 · 10-06-2007 09:24PM

I'd be pretty surprised if any GPs still suggested guinness during pregnancy nowadays, as current thinking is that alcohol should be avoided throughout pregnancy.

Winters · 10-06-2007 09:31PM

Except for that glass of red wine a day.

Sangre · 10-06-2007 09:32PM

Boston wrote:

Shouldn't be in that line of business.

Just to clarify, are we talking about the actual owners or the employees?

tallaght01 · 10-06-2007 09:34PM

Winters wrote:

Except for that glass of red wine a day.

not during pregnancy though

Wertz · 10-06-2007 09:43PM

tallaght01 wrote:

I'd be pretty surprised if any GPs still suggested guinness during pregnancy nowadays, as current thinking is that alcohol should be avoided throughout pregnancy.

Fair enough it may not happen the last few years but it certainly did for decades before...I'm talking in terms of a country in who's culture drinking was an accepted form of medication and that this even stretched to expectant mothers...I believe it's because iron supplements are hard on the stomach, at a time when morning sickness is an issue and because guinness was readily available. Better to have the alcohol and a non-amaemic mother as far as the fetus is concerned

There was certainly some sort of UK government thing last week about 0 alcohol during pregnancy, but who really listens to them...

tallaght01 · 10-06-2007 09:46PM

Wertz wrote:

Better to have the alcohol and a non-amaemic mother as far as the fetus is concerned

There was certainly some sort of UK government thing last week about 0 alcohol during pregnancy, but who really listens to them...

I'm not sure any of the above is sound advice, in this day and age :P

Wertz · 10-06-2007 09:57PM

tallaght01 wrote:

I'm not sure any of the above is sound advice, in this day and age :P

Where did I mention it was? It's against boards rules to offer medical advice...I'm merely citing my opinions.

"in this day and age"

What's changed? Have our gestationary processes evolved over the few decades?

Winters · 10-06-2007 10:00PM

tallaght01 wrote:

not during pregnancy though

Scrubs lied to me ;_;

Boston · 10-06-2007 10:02PM

Sangre wrote:

Just to clarify, are we talking about the actual owners or the employees?

employee

tallaght01 · 10-06-2007 10:03PM

Wertz wrote:

Where did I mention it was? It's against boards rules to offer medical advice...I'm merely citing my opinions.

"in this day and age"

What's changed? Have our gestationary processes evolved over the few decades?

I dind't say it was advice. But I think that, by virtue of the fact that it's on a public board, it's fair enough to point out that it's not good advice.

Pregnancy hasn't changed, but our knowledge of what harms a fetus has.

Wertz · 10-06-2007 10:28PM

Our knowledge of a lot of things has...it makes you wonder how we ever managed to survive at all given all the things we used to do in the bad old days.

Like I said in the other thread, moderation and acceptable risk...no-one is advocating scuba diving in the Bushmills distillery...

tallaght01 · 10-06-2007 10:31PM

It just depends on what risks your willing to take. And while we can't experiment on pregnant women, so we'll never really know the full facts, I'll continue to advocate abstinence during pregnancy. The individual has, of course, the right to ignore medical advice.

randylonghorn · 10-06-2007 11:18PM

Sawa wrote:

should employees of bars/shops selling cigarettes be allowed to refuse people on the grounds of said employees beliefs/morals

Where does it stop?

I walk in to my local Dunnes, pick up my groceries including a chop for my tea, get to the checkout to be told "I'm sorry, I can't serve you, I'm a committed vegetarian".

The recent fad of expecting the state, and legislation, to regulate every aspect of life has become ridiculous in the extreme.

Take responsibility for your own moral and ethical beliefs, rather than imposing them on everyone else, or crying to the state to do it for you.

If you object to selling meat / fur / alcohol / petrol / condoms / whatever, get yourself a job where you don't have to do so. If you object to selling cigarettes to pregnant women, get yourself another job where you don't have to do so.

While personally I would strongly deplore a pregnant woman smoking, it is her choice, provided she is an adult. She needs to take responsibility for her actions, just as you need to take responsibility for yours.

Apart from philosophical issues, it would be an unworkable law in any case, as would the suggestion to refuse to sell alcohol to pregnant women. What are the bar staff supposed to do, send her off to the loo with a pregnancy test? Supervise said procedure in case she gets one of her friends to piss on it for her? Can people please get real here!

What, I wonder, will be the next proposal from the Nanny Staters? I remember seeing a brief mention a few months ago of a proposal in some US state to ban those over 65 from driving, as that demographic had a proportionally high level of accidents. Here, of course, it would be males 17-27 who would be sent back to take the bus.

Or here's a good one ... all those underage youngsters who are having sex before McDowell wanted them to ... simple solution: lock them up in chastity belts / c*ck cages between reaching puberty and 17. Actually, make them take a test before letting them out ... that might at least alleviate the horrendous level of ignorance and downright wrong information among some Irish teenagers when it comes to sex.

No doubt I'll be told "ah now, you're just being ridiculous!"

Well, maybe I am, to make a point.

But I will guarantee you that if I had suggested 40 years ago that smoking would be banned in Irish pubs I would have been accused of being ridiculous too.

Sangre · 10-06-2007 11:24PM

Boston wrote:

employee

Ah right, agree with you then.

Ruen · 11-06-2007 12:04AM

randylonghorn wrote:

Where does it stop?

I walk in to my local Dunnes, pick up my groceries including a chop for my tea, get to the checkout to be told "I'm sorry, I can't serve you, I'm a committed vegetarian".

The recent fad of expecting the state, and legislation, to regulate every aspect of life has become ridiculous in the extreme.

Take responsibility for your own moral and ethical beliefs, rather than imposing them on everyone else, or crying to the state to do it for you.

If you object to selling meat / fur / alcohol / petrol / condoms / whatever, get yourself a job where you don't have to do so. If you object to selling cigarettes to pregnant women, get yourself another job where you don't have to do so.

While personally I would strongly deplore a pregnant woman smoking, it is her choice, provided she is an adult. She needs to take responsibility for her actions, just as you need to take responsibility for yours.

Apart from philosophical issues, it would be an unworkable law in any case, as would the suggestion to refuse to sell alcohol to pregnant women. What are the bar staff supposed to do, send her off to the loo with a pregnancy test? Supervise said procedure in case she gets one of her friends to piss on it for her? Can people please get real here!

What, I wonder, will be the next proposal from the Nanny Staters? I remember seeing a brief mention a few months ago of a proposal in some US state to ban those over 65 from driving, as that demographic had a proportionally high level of accidents. Here, of course, it would be males 17-27 who would be sent back to take the bus.

Or here's a good one ... all those underage youngsters who are having sex before McDowell wanted them to ... simple solution: lock them up in chastity belts / c*ck cages between reaching puberty and 17. Actually, make them take a test before letting them out ... that might at least alleviate the horrendous level of ignorance and downright wrong information among some Irish teenagers when it comes to sex.

No doubt I'll be told "ah now, you're just being ridiculous!"

Well, maybe I am, to make a point.

But I will guarantee you that if I had suggested 40 years ago that smoking would be banned in Irish pubs I would have been accused of being ridiculous too.

Damn straight!
I notice that nobody who agrees that banning pregnant women from purchasing cigarettes or alcohol has answered any of the questions brought up on the practicality of it, even though of course it is nobodys business, one of them is highlighted above in case any of you missed it.

Fighting Irish · 11-06-2007 01:01AM

Sawa wrote:

I work in a convienience store, this girl comes in and asks for 20 John Player Blue cigarettes, I am not positive she looks over 18, so I i.d her, she hands me a cancelled passport (which I can't accept, plus the picture doesn't look like her) so I tell her, "Sorry, I can't serve you.".
She gets very aggressive at me and argues until red faced I keep refusing until she leaves.

Another girl I work with said she has threatened to hit her for refusing her cigerattes, so she gives the angry girl what she wants because it is just easier.

This is just an aside to the fact that this girl is pregnant (showing quite a bit, maybe 6/7 months) and is smoking. I did not notice the first time I saw her because I was behind the till and wasn't looking at her stomach but saw her in the shop today and saw how heavily pregnant she is.

Basically to cut a long story short, I know it is not up to me, an employee of a shop to dictate to people whether they smoke when pregnant but should employees of bars/shops selling cigarettes be allowed to refuse people on the grounds of said employees beliefs/morals with regard to what the purchaser of alcohol or cigarettes is doing to their un-born child.
If the girl's i.d was valid, would you have served her and how would you have felt?

(l realise it's not my business and it is "her body" and all that, but I do feel awful at the thought of contributing to harming her baby!)

:rolleyes: relax there, jesus

WhiteWashMan · 11-06-2007 02:36AM

scojones wrote:

If you're prolife and you disagree with me, it's because you're being biased and don't know how to think for yourself.

rubbish. thats a skewed argument. having a moral stance or bias on an issue does not indicate inability to think.

as for the orginal post, i prefer to make my own choices, do my own research and come to my own conclusion.
I do not want, nor solicit moral advice from shop keepers. or people on boards.ie for that matter either. i expect most people would feel the same.

Victor · 11-06-2007 02:49AM

Sawa wrote:

I am not positive she looks over 18, so I i.d her, she hands me a cancelled passport (which I can't accept,

Aside from not looking like her, why can't you accept a passport?

Another girl I work with said she has threatened to hit her for refusing her cigerattes, so she gives the angry girl what she wants because it is just easier

Then ban her from the shop.

Basically to cut a long story short, I know it is not up to me, an employee of a shop to dictate to people whether they smoke when pregnant but should employees of bars/shops selling cigarettes be allowed to refuse people on the grounds of said employees beliefs/morals with regard to what the purchaser of alcohol or cigarettes is doing to their un-born child.

If you don't want to sell cigarettes then don't, although it probably means moving job.

Jumpy · 11-06-2007 08:55AM

Victor wrote:

Aside from not looking like her, why can't you accept a passport?
Then ban her from the shop.
If you don't want to sell cigarettes then don't, although it probably means moving job.

Cancelled passports are not legal ID.

Dr. Seuss · 11-06-2007 09:53AM

Jumpy wrote:

Cancelled passports are not legal ID.

It's a crappy newsagents - not an airport.

professore · 11-06-2007 10:04AM

Dr. Seuss wrote:

They don't even make 1c on a pack of 20? Bullsh*t.

1c is not enough for a profit - you have to pay someone at least 8 euro an hour so on wages alone thats 800 + packets an hour to break even on wages, then there's running costs, rents, insurance etc etc .

I don't work in the business but I suspect you need a 50% markup at least on a product to make any money on it - and the less you sell the higher the markup.

professore · 11-06-2007 10:08AM

Collie D wrote:

But a barman can easily check ID. Some pregnant women don't look pregnant and the same can be said of fat women who look pregnant. Should there be a limit, ie anyone who is more than three months pregnant...? How do you prove who is and who isn't? Urine tests before we hand over the booze?

Alcohol does the most damage in the first few weeks of pregnancy - so therefore women of childbearing age shouldn't be allowed alcohol at all. How far do you want to take this?

DublinWriter · 11-06-2007 10:11AM

Stephen wrote:

I remember reading in the paper about some doctors who refuse to give the morning after pill to women because it goes against their Catholic beliefs :rolleyes:

Not some, most.

Pregnant teenagers buying tobacco

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