Gardai learn basic Polish in their bid to serve immigrants

Owen · 03-05-2007 11:13AM

Bambi wrote:

The difference between my neighbour and your mate is that i actually have a neighbour.

If you wait long enough in this thread Degsy will probably come in and accuse you of having no neighbour and making it all up

0ubliette · 03-05-2007 11:17AM

ned78 wrote:

No matter how many of you suggest this, it will never happen, will you design the language test? Will you put in place the monetary and intellectual funding to create a Government Department at every Airport and Ferry Terminal? Will you pay the Exam Supervisors? How do you even go about deciding what's an acceptable level of English?

Yeah, like the way it hasnt happened in England. Oh no wait, it HAS happened there. If its been done in England, it could be done here someday.

Owen · 03-05-2007 11:20AM

0ubliette wrote:

Yeah, like the way it hasnt happened in England. Oh no wait, it HAS happened there. If its been done in England, it could be done here someday.

Can you point us to an article, or source, showing us exactly what's required to enter the UK and work as an EU Citizen?

The Saint · 03-05-2007 11:21AM

0ubliette wrote:

Yeah, like the way it hasnt happened in England. Oh no wait, it HAS happened there. If its been done in England, it could be done here someday.

No they didn't. Not for EU citizens anyway. They're not allowed. It's a single marke therefore free movement of goods, labour, services and capital. They cannot discriminate based on language. They have some tests for non-EU immigrants though.

is_that_so · 03-05-2007 11:28AM

0ubliette wrote:

Yeah, like the way it hasnt happened in England. Oh no wait, it HAS happened there. If its been done in England, it could be done here someday.

Much of the problem in the UK was to do with where people came from and their culture. There are still areas where first generation immigrants never bothered to learn. That occurred fifty years ago which does suggest that it was the government and the immigrants who never attempted to address the problem.

At least here we are "debating" it. There is an argument for people having to learn the language when they get here. It certainly helps them integrate and lots of other things. Yes they should be encouraged to learn English but the "I can't understand you because you don't speak English" attitude is not helpful to anyone.

Kintarō Hattori · 03-05-2007 11:35AM

0ubliette wrote:

Yeah, like the way it hasnt happened in England. Oh no wait, it HAS happened there. If its been done in England, it could be done here someday.

Oh come on Oubliette that's just crazy talk. 'If its been done in England, it could be done here someday.' So what, that has no bearing on us. Do we follow suit just because england has done something.

Anything that's been done somewhere, COULD be done here. Your just clutching at straws for the sake of it.

Zombrex · 03-05-2007 12:03PM

eo980 wrote:

Your talking to a brick wall wicknight!

The hypocracy of the whole thing is just mind boggling

The reason I have no issue with a Polish person who cannot speak English working here is that I can't speak a second language and I want the ability to work in the EU without being deported because I can't speak the language. As do hundreds of thousands of Irish people who go off to work in foreign lands without the native language of the country they are going to

If we can do it fine why can't the rest of Europe? The whole argument against this is nonsense. The Irish of all people should understand immigration, yet judging by this forum we don't have a clue. Where the bad old 80s that long ago that posters here don't remember?

daenis · 03-05-2007 01:32PM

eo980 wrote:

Oh come on Oubliette that's just crazy talk. 'If its been done in England, it could be done here someday.' So what, that has no bearing on us. Do we follow suit just because england has done something.

Anything that's been done somewhere, COULD be done here. Your just clutching at straws for the sake of it.

But the foundations of most of our laws can be found in british law. We have very similar legal systems. And historically if a new law is sucessful in the UK it will be brought in here too.

No matter how many of you suggest this, it will never happen, will you design the language test? Will you put in place the monetary and intellectual funding to create a Government Department at every Airport and Ferry Terminal? Will you pay the Exam Supervisors? How do you even go about deciding what's an acceptable level of English?

There are already tests available to test a person's level of English. TOEFL is one type of test. In order to be accepted to a college course the person must first achieve a set mark in this exam. All of this is done at the expense of the student. I know it is slightly different but just pointing out that exams such as this already exist

Owen · 03-05-2007 01:44PM

daenis wrote:

But the foundations of most of our laws can be found in british law. We have very similar legal systems. And historically if a new law is sucessful in the UK it will be brought in here too.

No one has proved even if this law that 0ubliette is talking about even exists. Even if it does, it only applies to non-EU citizens. Now bear in mind that this thread has diversified, people have stated that anyone who can't speak English should be stopped at the border. So if a French person, as an EU Citzen can't speak English, and wants to work here, those debaters are proposing we send them home. Thankfully EU law rules the roost on this.

daenis wrote:

There are already tests available to test a person's level of English. TOEFL is one type of test. In order to be accepted to a college course the person must first achieve a set mark in this exam. All of this is done at the expense of the student. I know it is slightly different but just pointing out that exams such as this already exist

So an English exam exists. That doesn't mean it will be suitable for the idiocracy that people are suggesting here. Nor does it mean the infrastructure in place for that exam will work. You will still need, based on what people are proposing, staff at every Ferry Port, Airport, and Fishing Port to stop immigrant workers to get people to sit down and do a test.

is_that_so · 03-05-2007 01:47PM

daenis wrote:

There are already tests available to test a person's level of English. TOEFL is one type of test. In order to be accepted to a college course the person must first achieve a set mark in this exam. All of this is done at the expense of the student. I know it is slightly different but just pointing out that exams such as this already exist

Not a test that should be spoken about out loud. The Cambridge and Oxford exams are vastly superior and are based on Council of Europe descriptions. Another point here of course is that Ireland and language schools are making money out of teaching the language, not to mention all the money that host families pick up.

nesf · 03-05-2007 03:07PM

InFront wrote:

Visit an abbatoir (as an extreme example) and see how many of their production line staff, using knives and saws, could write an English essay.

Maybe you just associate with students or highly educated people and it's coloured your views but you do know that a substantial amount of Irish people couldn't write you a coherent English essay? Where their spelling, grammar and just basic essay writing skills are utterly crap?

From the way a few people have been going on you'd expect that all the Irish have perfect English, they don't. In fact, just by spending a day reading what constitutes as writing on here you could see that. Or better yet go to Teen Ireland or something.

Plissken1 · 03-05-2007 04:04PM

I am bored with being Irish. anyone want to swap ?

Degsy · 03-05-2007 04:28PM

Plissken1 wrote:

I am bored with being Irish. anyone want to swap ?

Me too,i want to be from somewhere exotic and mysterious..like belgium,or wales,maybe!

InFront · 03-05-2007 06:20PM

nesf wrote:

From the way a few people have been going on you'd expect that all the Irish have perfect English, they don't. In fact, just by spending a day reading what constitutes as writing on here you could see that. Or better yet go to Teen Ireland or something.

Yes that's a fair point, but whether you're Irish or Eastern European or whatever, English is only as important as you make it.
Some people like to have good grammar, that's fine. Some people really don't care, that should be fine too.

Where that applies to economic migrants into Ireland, again English is only as important as it needs to be. Many only come here to earn mortgages and stay for about two years - the large Slav community means that English fluency upon arrival is of a vague importance.

I'm all for allowing immigrants into the country, but letting them in when they cant even communicate with us basically means they are useless. How are they supposed to contribute?

€ € €

InFront · 03-05-2007 06:27PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

sorry, im not seeing your point here if youare comparing polish people getting labour jobs in ireland, to irish people getting high paid jobs in Dubai.
if english is a pre-requisite for these highly paid jobs in dubai, then i think youre barking up the wrong tree and may want to revisit your argument.
i dont think anyone would be offered a high paid job anywhere if they werent equipt with the correct tools, and that includes the ability to communicate.

Yes, for the job, absolutely. My earlier point was just in relation to the necessity of English when the job did not require it. If they can get along fine without English, they should go for it.

In the Dubai situation, my point was that the many British (and Irish) expats who work there don't bother learning Arabic or Urdu, etc. It's the domestic language, but due to the high number of European immigrants, it's unnecessary, because the immigrants often don't mix with the indigenous population there. It's the same for many Eastern Europeans who work here.

Snickers Man · 03-05-2007 06:46PM

GarraiGamhain wrote:

What a load of crap. You wouldnt see it in any other country. When we were pulled by the police in Germany .

Yes you would actually. Not least in Germany.

When I lived there I had reason to need medical treatment. The doctor spoke to me in English throughout, even though I had taken the trouble to add rudimentary medical vocabulary to my scanty knowledge of German (I remember that Ich habe ergebrochen means "I threw up").

Then when it came time to give directions on the treatment that was needed, he went to his drawer and selected a whole sheaf of leaflets in a variety of languages, including ones with different alphabets like Arabic etc and thumbed through them until he found one in English.

Surely anything the Krauts can do........

SimpleSam06 · 04-05-2007 09:41AM

Wicknight wrote:

So when you are in France ... its ok that you speak ... with people so long as you are conducting trade, but you shouldn't speak ... to them, you should speak French, if the conversation moves over to how good a day you are having or what you are doing for the summer
:rolleyes:
LOL
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:
:rolleyes:

Enjoy living under that rock dreaming of Ireland 50 years ago.

Jesus are you still talking? This is what happens when you have a life outside of boards. Sigh. Your arguments are incoherent, and very difficult to associate with any actual points.

Could you do us a favour and just assemble them into a few clear, concise elements, ta very much. What you no doubt characterise in your bone box as a crushing and all-conquering sarcasm just comes out as malformed sentences, I'm sad to say.

I'll just deal with the couple of points I did manage to wrestle from the five car pileup you just made of the English language, and the debate in general.

Wicknight wrote:

Clearly Sam there is not much point arguing with you because you have a rather ridiculous negative attitude to all immigrants (or at least the ones who come here with bad English).

Oho, so now I'm with the KKK is it? Why is it that anyone who is completely against the wall resorts to godwin style attacks. Yes, I'm worse than hitler. Snigger. I deplore the waste of tax euros, and I'd strongly question the motivation behind this training course. Thats it.

Wicknight wrote:

It would take a couple of books on economics to even attempt to show you the benefit that foreign workers have given to this country in the last 15 year. But then I doubt you would listen anyway

I'll tell you what, champ. Its said that an expert can explain even the most complicated things to anyone in plain English, because they understand it themselves. Why don't you explain to me (preferably without going into another stream of consciousness there) why unskilled immigrant workers, who don't speak the language, are good for the economy.

Snickers Man wrote:

The doctor spoke to me in English throughout, even though I had taken the trouble to add rudimentary medical vocabulary to my scanty knowledge of German (I remember that Ich habe ergebrochen means "I threw up").

How would that doctor have fared if you were Polish? Or even French? Trade language again...

SimpleSam06 · 04-05-2007 09:47AM

InFront wrote:

In the Dubai situation, my point was that the many British (and Irish) expats who work there don't bother learning Arabic or Urdu, etc.

English is a trade language. Many people in Dubai already speak English, expats don't need to learn the local language. How many people speak Polish in Dubai? Its one of the few advantages the English brought to this country...

is_that_so · 04-05-2007 10:06AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Jesus are you still talking? This is what happens when you have a life outside of boards. Sigh. Your arguments are incoherent, and very difficult to associate with any actual points.

Could you do us a favour and just assemble them into a few clear, concise elements, ta very much. What you no doubt characterise in your bone box as a crushing and all-conquering sarcasm just comes out as malformed sentences, I'm sad to say.

I'll just deal with the couple of points I did manage to wrestle from the five car pileup you just made of the English language, and the debate in general.

Oho, so now I'm with the KKK is it? Why is it that anyone who is completely against the wall resorts to godwin style attacks. Yes, I'm worse than hitler. Snigger. I deplore the waste of tax euros, and I'd strongly question the motivation behind this training course. Thats it.

I'll tell you what, champ. Its said that an expert can explain even the most complicated things to anyone in plain English, because they understand it themselves. Why don't you explain to me (preferably without going into another stream of consciousness there) why unskilled immigrant workers, who don't speak the language, are good for the economy.

How would that doctor have fared if you were Polish? Or even French? Trade language again...

OK not getting into a slanging match here but I am curious what your position actually is. From this post I can see why people are interpreting your comments the way they have.

Are you against immigration or is it just the language issue?

Just one comment.

In an affluent society unskilled immigrants tend to do the jobs that the locals refuse to do any more. In our case that would be service industries like tourism and some areas of agriculture - e.g. mushrooms industry. All you need is someone who speaks both languages, but this is not necessarily a prerequisite for all workers.

SimpleSam06 · 04-05-2007 10:38AM

is_that_so wrote:

OK not getting into a slanging match here but I am curious what your position actually is. From this post I can see why people are interpreting your comments the way they have.

Are you against immigration or is it just the language issue?

Another one with reading difficulty. Let me quote myself verbatim from the post you just quoted, and didn't read:

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I deplore the waste of tax euros, and I'd strongly question the motivation behind this training course. Thats it.

How hard was that?

is_that_so wrote:

In an affluent society unskilled immigrants tend to do the jobs that the locals refuse to do any more. In our case that would be service industries like tourism and some areas of agriculture - e.g. mushrooms industry. All you need is someone who speaks both languages, but this is not necessarily a prerequisite for all workers.

Theres so much wrong with this I'm not sure where to start.

1. Ireland is not an affluent society. The wealth indexes measure property values which are grossly inflated, and ignore debt. Most of those nice beemers you see rolling down the street, yerman mortgaged his house to get it.

2. If locals are refusing to do the jobs, that means the compensation they are receiving for those jobs is less that they find acceptable, given cost of living. If unskilled migrants (get it right) come in and do these jobs, they have a depressive effect on wages not only for the crappy jobs, but for all related jobs. Essentially they are prepared to accept a lower standard of living, and in doing so reduce the native population's standard of living. Not A Good Thing. This also serves to concentrate wealth in the hands of the top ten percent.

This ignores the negative effects from your other example, tourism, where you have immigrants struggling to understand the tourists, and vice versa.

3. Agriculture in this country can never compete with the large scale industrial farming in the continental US and other places like that. We keep our agriculture as war proofing, not as a benefit to the economy. Migrant workers in our agricultural sector are having negligible beneficial effect on the economy.

nobodythere · 04-05-2007 01:58PM

What a crock of crap.

Most foreign nationals I meet have a piss-poor standard of english, and any time I pass foreign nationals in the street they're speaking their own language. It's rude and lazy and they've closed themselves off from the Irish community.

empirix · 04-05-2007 02:07PM

grasshopa wrote:

What a crock of crap.

Most foreign nationals I meet have a piss-poor standard of english, and any time I pass foreign nationals in the street they're speaking their own language. It's rude and lazy and they've closed themselves off from the Irish community.

Let them, dont particularly want to mix with them myself, while i welcome them here(the ones that are willing to work!) i find them nice but amazingly boring, dress sense is amazingly bad and in general seem a bit lost,a lot of fine looking women and all who seem pleasant but quite boring, let them do what they want, doesnt bother me at all

Lenina · 04-05-2007 08:27PM

Hi, I have read the whole thread and some of the comments are shocking. We did not ask your police to learn the Polish language, so do not turn it against us please. Most of us try to learn English, although it is difficult if you didn`t learn it before. In my experience some of you expect us to speak fluent English, but at the same time don`t want to mix with us very much. So if some immigrants separate themselves from the Irish society, it is not entirely their fault. It`s only natural that we appear lost.

Blowfish · 04-05-2007 08:37PM

Lenina wrote:

Hi, I have read the whole thread and some of the comments are shocking. We did not ask your police to learn the Polish language, so do not turn it against us please. Most of us try to learn English, although it is difficult if you didn`t learn it before. In my experience some of you expect us to speak fluent English, but at the same time don`t want to mix with us very much. So if some immigrants separate themselves from the Irish society, it is not entirely their fault. It`s only natural that we appear lost.

Well said.

I think we should take a look at the situation in London, which has now hit the point where there are more people from non-English backgrounds than English ones. There are entire groups from different backgrounds who have been there for several generations and still haven't learnt English. They manage to survive and contribute to the economy despite this. Its inevitable that the same will happen here. What harm is it if the Gardai start reaching out so they can help people in this situation?

InFront · 04-05-2007 10:37PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

English is a trade language. Many people in Dubai already speak English, expats don't need to learn the local language.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, are you saying that Eastern Europeans should be proficient in English because it is a trade language? As was already pointed out, in many sectors where Eastern Europeans tend to be employed, that's not necessary.
Anyway, it's an employer's individual choice based on what he needs from his employees.

If you're saying that they should learn English out of some perceived 'respect' for this society, then what do you think of the Irish expatriates in Dubai who do not learn Arabic or Urdu, nor mix with the Emiratis, speak English and tend to socialise almost exclusively with their Western European colleagues.

empirix · 04-05-2007 10:38PM

Lenina wrote:

Hi, I have read the whole thread and some of the comments are shocking. We did not ask your police to learn the Polish language, so do not turn it against us please. Most of us try to learn English, although it is difficult if you didn`t learn it before. In my experience some of you expect us to speak fluent English, but at the same time don`t want to mix with us very much. So if some immigrants separate themselves from the Irish society, it is not entirely their fault. It`s only natural that we appear lost.

Ok cool.
So whats the story with the bad fashion sense then?

Dyr · 04-05-2007 10:40PM

Blowfish wrote:

Well said.

I think we should take a look at the situation in London, which has now hit the point where there are more people from non-English backgrounds than English ones. There are entire groups from different backgrounds who have been there for several generations and still haven't learnt English. They manage to survive and contribute to the economy despite this. Its inevitable that the same will happen here. What harm is it if the Gardai start reaching out so they can help people in this situation?

Yeah? Ask the native english how they feel about being a minority in their own city. Originally it was for their benefit dont ye know?

So dublin gets to be yet another city that is everywhereville and nowhereville all at once. Another franchise in some global corporate brand metropolis that where no matter where you go its all the same. Yippeedy doo f***ng daa.

Blowfish · 04-05-2007 10:43PM

Bambi wrote:

So dublin gets to be yet another city that is everywhereville and nowhereville all at once. Another franchise in some global corporate brand metropolis that where no matter where you go its all the same. Yippeedy doo f***ng daa.

What, and it isn't a generic city already? Take a look around at the shops. How many of them are actually home grown in comparison to chains from other countries?

The idea of a multicultural city doesn't seem particularly bad at all to me.

InFront · 04-05-2007 10:50PM

Blowfish wrote:

take a look at the situation in London, which has now hit the point where there are more people from non-English backgrounds than English ones.

I would really doubt that is true. Have you got evidence?

There are entire groups from different backgrounds who have been there for several generations and still haven't learnt English.

Again, I doubt this is true. There are certainly many bilingual families who apply different languages inside and outside the home, but to say that there are young people having gone through school in the UK, who cannot speak English several generations after their grandparents arriving, is way off.

Lenina · 04-05-2007 11:04PM

empirix wrote:

Ok cool.
So whats the story with the bad fashion sense then?

It`s not about fashion sense. We only have different priorities and limited budget. The most important thing is to earn money to buy our own house (during 40 years of Communism noone owned anything, people were renting their accommodation from the state, and also, the prices are still quite low, although they have been rising since we are in the EU) and everything else (clothes, shoes, hairdressers, etc) is an unnecessary luxury.
Now I am talking about people who immigrated here. Maybe you should travel to E. Europe. People who have well paid jobs dress like Western Europeans.
Moreover, as Warsaw does not really have a problem with unemployment, most Polish immigrants come from the countryside (I can hear it on their accents). The Irish country people don`t dress very well either, especially older men.

Gardai learn basic Polish in their bid to serve immigrants

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