Gardai learn basic Polish in their bid to serve immigrants

Owen · 02-05-2007 06:53PM

stepbar wrote:

Sorry ned but you havent really addressed my point at all, instead you've got in a huff. Do you take most things in life to be the "way it is"?

Yes, I do. It's childish, and overly simplistic to want to limit entry to a country in the EU based on linguistic skills. I'm intrigued by your huff detector though, you should patent it and sell it to Logitech ... a device capable of relaying emotive reponses through the 'net, wow! Here's what you posted :

stepbar wrote:

We're talking about people here, anybody can follow the law. Laws dont come into this. Having respect for the culture and values of the nation you live in do. That includes having a basic knowledge of the national language. Using the logic above, it would be acceptable to have a nation of insular people who would have no common social interest in other people. How can you argue for that?

You're putting across the point that, in your opinion, the law counts for bugger all. If someone wants to come and work here, they can learn the culture, and language before they're allowed entry? How do you define the language skills? Is it about being able to buy a loaf of bread, is it about being able to tell a Doctor that your tibia could be fractured? And how do you define an understanding of our Culture. Should immigrants be able to recount the tales of Queen Maeve and Cuchulainn? When you start requesting boundaries like this, then by God you'll see the tax payers money dwindle ... mandatory education classes, examinations, people to grade the exams, rent of buildings to teach in, the setting up of a Government Department to oversee all of this, and then of course, outsourcing to Companies who'll provide this service, and charge whatever they wish.

You're also coming to the conclusion, that by allowing people in, who don't speak English, that they'll isolate themselves and form little closed communities. That won't happen, if someone lives in a country for a year or two, they will pick up a basic knowledge of the language, it's the chicken and egg scenario. If they've no English, keep them out ... but if you let them in, then they'll eventually integrate. No one likes being isolated in a new Country.

This thread is about a small group of Gardaí doing an inexpensive 10 week course to learn the basics in Polish. Not every Gard will be required to do it, and AFAIR, it's not a requirement for any Garda at the moment. If they decide it's sucessful, and implement it, not every Gard will have to do it. One from each townland with a Polish population greater than x will do, the rest can contact him on his mobile, or radio. I'm sure it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than making everyone coming into the Country sit an exam at the Airport.

You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone on this thread. But until you're sitting in Dáil Eireann, you're not going to be able to change the Law. The EU is about having open borders, and long may it continue.

Rb · 02-05-2007 07:02PM

Lol @ Ned98.

Oh and @CSG: try again.

Glad to see the PC Brigade out in full swing.

That is all.

SimpleSam06 · 02-05-2007 08:16PM

Wicknight wrote:

Its called "humanity" .. you might look it up ...

No, its called watching too much "lethal weapon 2" as a child.

Wicknight wrote:

Groan .. that is why it is in their interest to learn the language, to accommodate foreign people in their land

You see they tend not to be as ridiculously terrified of foreign people.

Bzzt. Trade languages are called so because they are used for trade. If they were only used for tourism, they would be called "tourist languages", now, wouldn't they? Trade is defined as the exchange of goods and/or services for the mutual benefit of the parties involved. Maybe I should just attach a crayon drawing or something.

Wicknight wrote:

Think about that the next time you lose your bags in a foreign airport or train station where you don't speak the language

Wow, you're hitting all the notes tonight. Time you stopped putting forward your little straw man, that tourists and migrant workers operate under the same linguistic rules. They don't. If I lose my bags, I'm a tourist. If I travel to a new country with no idea of the langage in hopes of suckling and getting fat on the teat of a wealthy economy, I'm a lazy muppet.

Wicknight wrote:

2 - F**k them, they can learn my bloody language if they want to speak to me.

Strangely enough very few other countries take the attitude 2

Name a country that doesn't take attitude 2, except when it comes to money. Why are the migrants here again? Oh yes, money.

Judt wrote:

Now now, due process. That would make it more difficult to get a fair trial and so on, if you were so bogged down in translation costs to pay for a decent lawyer, and so on.

If you've managed to get yourself into a foreign country with no knowledge of the language, in a fit of greed, and then managed to land yourself in front of a judge, I couldn't give a flying frig in hard vacuum if you can afford a good lawyer or not. Why should the Irish state have to bear the cost of migrant stupidity?

Judt wrote:

Would you say that Ireland is richer or poorer for the sake of E. European migrants?

Poorer. Thats a whole other economic debate, but I'll give it to you if you want it.

ned78 wrote:

It's childish, and overly simplistic to want to limit entry to a country in the EU based on linguistic skills.

First I've heard of limiting access. I thought this was about tax money being wasted.

ned78 wrote:

This thread is about a small group of Gardaí doing an inexpensive 10 week course to learn the basics in Polish. Not every Gard will be required to do it, and AFAIR, it's not a requirement for any Garda at the moment.

No matter how much it costs, it's too much.

Owen · 02-05-2007 08:22PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

First I've heard of limiting access. I thought this was about tax money being wasted.

Most nay sayers on this thread have said if people can't speak English, that they shouldn't come here.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

No matter how much it costs, it's too much.

In comparison to what? If you do decide to base people's rights on their skills, as I've outlined in my thread above, it has the potential to become much much more expensive. And none of us know how much this 10 week course is costing at the moment. For all we know, it could be free.

SimpleSam06 · 02-05-2007 08:29PM

ned78 wrote:

Most nay sayers on this thread have said if people can't speak English, that they shouldn't come here.

I believe the general tone is that if they can't speak English, they shouldn't come here to work and live. And if they do, they should stay the hell out of trouble.

ned78 wrote:

In comparison to what? If you do decide to base people's rights on their skills, as I've outlined in my thread above, it has the potential to become much much more expensive. And none of us know how much this 10 week course is costing at the moment. For all we know, it could be free.

Who is denigrating anyone elses rights? If they break they law, they pay for their own translation, if found guilty. No rights are being infringed there, seems perfectly just to me. As I said before, economic migrants don't stick around long if the economy tanks. What value will this course have then? Bah.

Kintarō Hattori · 02-05-2007 08:30PM

Well at 9PM I'm off to Slattery's on Capel Street to see a Polish band. I don't know about the other guys but the guitar player has crap english, but he's a damn fine musician. Should he have been excluded from entering the country? (Inicidentally he works as a labourer, and not as a bum)

http://www.myspace.com/expressactive
Their website

Owen · 02-05-2007 08:34PM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

I believe the general tone is that if they can't speak English, they shouldn't come here to work and live. And if they do, they should stay the hell out of trouble.

You say Tomayto, I saw Tomahto. It's more or less the same thing.

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Who is denigrating anyone elses rights? If they break they law, they pay for their own translation, if found guilty. No rights are being infringed there, seems perfectly just to me. As I said before, economic migrants don't stick around long if the economy tanks. What value will this course have then? Bah.

Sorry, I understand what you're saying now. You believe rather than having this course, it's better to keep using interpreters, and have the person under suspicion by the Gardaí pay for the translation. That's a good idea I have to admit. Maybe difficult to implement if the Gardaí can't get people to pay bills, but a good idea.

Personally, I like the direction the course is taking, as long as it isn't hundreds and thousands of Euro. But that's just my personal opinion.

InFront · 02-05-2007 08:58PM

ned78 wrote:

Personally, I like the direction the course is taking, as long as it isn't hundreds and thousands of Euro. But that's just my personal opinion.

Me too, I think it has a limited amount of functional value (and I'm sure the cost will reflect that reality), but very few people are coming on this thread to argue about the cost or resources.

The main problem seems to be that the police are going out of their way to accomodate Eastern Europeans. There's just no arguing with that type of person.

In many, many countries where new workers have migrated from, there is a different relationship with the police than exists here in Ireland. Irish police tend to resemble the character of the British police in terms of friendliness, informality and co-operation. A lot of immigrants think very highly of Irish police for this reason, and I have no doubt that a project like this would only enhance that relationship.

WhiteWashMan · 02-05-2007 11:10PM

heres a quick question. are there more people in ireland that speak irish as their first language, or polish?

what amazes me is that i havent seen a mention of anyone hiring poles for positions in the gardai (of course, then again, ive only read about 4 posts, and those were reported ones

)

i think its appropriate that the police force in ireland does all it can to help civilians, after all, thats what they are there for.

as for the argurment about whether people are ENTITLED to go where ever they want without having to learn the languae of the country, you are completely correct. you are entitled to now.
but i dont think its correct you should be ENTITLED to get a job without learning the language. I certainly wouldnt hire you if you didnt speak english. call it discrimination, but i wouldnt be able to understand you anyway. why would i disavantage myself in business, and anyone who has this liberal lefty free jobs for all attitude is as niave as they come.
if you want to do something, the onus is on you to make sure you are qualified. and that means able to do the job. you cant speak the language, you are not qualified in my books.

Blowfish · 02-05-2007 11:17PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

heres a quick question. are there more people in ireland that speak irish as their first language, or polish?

As far as I understand it Irish is now the 4th language spoken here, behind both Polish and Mandarin. I can't for the life of me remember where I got that from though

WhiteWashMan · 02-05-2007 11:26PM

so would it not make sense for the police force to have some knowledge of the larger majorities that are in residence in ireland?

i mean, if the guards have to pick up everyone they dont understand, youre soon going to have a scenario where the minorities feel they are being picked on, and that in turn is going to breed a 'this and them' scociety.
perhaps ireland is going to go through the same thing that germany and britain went through in the 80s and 90s with racial tension and rioting?

InFront · 02-05-2007 11:39PM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

I certainly wouldnt hire you if you didnt speak english... why would i disavantage myself in business, and anyone who has this liberal lefty free jobs for all attitude is as niave as they come

No, not at all. There are lots of jobs where a command of the english language is not necessary. In factories for example, where Eastern Europeans fill many of the positions in 'unskilled production', employers are really only going to favour the standard of work and production performance as opposed to any interpersonal or basic language skills. I think you'll find that these are the positions that such workers find themselves in.
In terms of not speaking English, it is more a question of not being fluent. It's very rare to come across an Eastern European employee of a reasonably young age who doesn't understand a word of English. It's a different standard.

How many of you, if offered a well paid job with Irish expatriates in Dubai, would refuse it because you couldn't were not fluent in Arabic?

nesf · 02-05-2007 11:42PM

rb_ie wrote:

Lol @ Ned98.

Oh and @CSG: try again.

Glad to see the PC Brigade out in full swing.

That is all.

If you can't make useful contributions to threads don't bother posting in them and spare us your attempts at wit.

WhiteWashMan · 02-05-2007 11:51PM

InFront wrote:

No, not at all. There are lots of jobs where a command of the english language is not necessary. In factories for example, where Eastern Europeans fill many of the positions in 'unskilled production', employers are really only going to favour the standard of work and production performance as opposed to any interpersonal or basic language skills. I think you'll find that these are the positions that such workers find themselves in.
In terms of not speaking English, it is more a question of not being fluent. It's very rare to come across an Eastern European employee of a reasonably young age who doesn't understand a word of English. It's a different standard.

How many of you, if offered a well paid job with Irish expatriates in Dubai, would refuse it because you couldn't were not fluent in Arabic?

there is a huge difference between what you are offering as a response with regards to low level work, and your queston about a high paid job.

its not the same comparison.

perhaps if you asked 'how many of you would consider taking a factory job in poland if you couldnt speak polish'.

answer: none.

by the way, the point i was making about hiring none english speaking people for my company was just that, my company, my decision. if you owned a factory you can hire all the people you want.
me, i have different criteria, and i wouldnt hire anyone that couldnt speak english.
mind you, having spent 5 years working in a factory myself, id have to say you are dicing with danger if youa re hiring people who cant speak the language, let alone read it, and getting them to operate machinary.
unless youre factory is an andrex loo roll factory?

RoundyMooney · 03-05-2007 12:12AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

...unless youre factory is an andrex loo roll factory?

And even at that

It's a sign of the times tbh. [Crass Generalisation] If crime were the only motivation, then the Gardai would have taken steps to learn Igbo and Romanian a long time ago [/Crass Generalisation].

Tool/hardware suppliers(!) and the HSA took the leap towards providing Polski based services a long time ago. It's a natural progression brought on by demand, and wholly necessary. Even at that, the language is still a problem from a health and safety perspective, but at least something is being done.

Anecdotally, and from what I've seen when it comes to crime/dubious vehicles on the road, more often than not it's not Polish that are the problem at all, but certain neighbours of theirs whom I won't mention here. Unfortunately when it comes to the great unwashed, they're all invariably"bloody Polish".

InFront · 03-05-2007 12:26AM

WhiteWashMan wrote:

there is a huge difference between what you are offering as a response with regards to low level work, and your queston about a high paid job... its not the same comparison.

Eastern Europeans have far greater earning power on minimum wage here than many of them would have in their old jobs in Poland. That is why for us it is analagous to a high paid job in a country like Dubai, with an Arabic population, but one where English is the imported language of thousands of foreign workers.

id have to say you are dicing with danger if youa re hiring people who cant speak the language, let alone read it, and getting them to operate machinary. unless youre factory is an andrex loo roll factory?

I'm a student, not a business man, but it absolutely does happen that people with low fluency in English work on production lines where they operate machinery, often heavy machinery.
Visit an abbatoir (as an extreme example) and see how many of their production line staff, using knives and saws, could write an English essay. Being honest, I really don't think it's important.

Rb · 03-05-2007 12:51AM

nesf wrote:

If you can't make useful contributions to threads don't bother posting in them and spare us your attempts at wit.

I was trying to be witty?Where?

Come on now Nesf, stop trying to act cool while WWM's around.

03-05-2007 12:56AM

rb_ie wrote:

I was trying to be witty?Where?

Come on now Nesf, stop trying to act cool while WWM's around.

I agree and why are you insulting me?
Come on I'm dying to hear your view:D

nesf · 03-05-2007 01:03AM

rb_ie wrote:

I was trying to be witty?Where?

Come on now Nesf, stop trying to act cool while WWM's around.

Fine, I was going to let this go with just a warning but:

rb_ie wrote:

Duurrrrr care to use your brain a little?

Banned for two weeks for abuse.

WhiteWashMan · 03-05-2007 01:11AM

InFront wrote:

Eastern Europeans have far greater earning power on minimum wage here than many of them would have in their old jobs in Poland. That is why for us it is analagous to a high paid job in a country like Dubai, with an Arabic population, but one where English is the imported language of thousands of foreign workers.

so youre comparing an unskilled labour job to a highly skilled and highly paid position, and you feel they are equitable.
sorry, im not seeing your point here if youare comparing polish people getting labour jobs in ireland, to irish people getting high paid jobs in Dubai.

if english is a pre-requisite for these highly paid jobs in dubai, then i think youre barking up the wrong tree and may want to revisit your argument.
i dont think anyone would be offered a high paid job anywhere if they werent equipt with the correct tools, and that includes the ability to communicate.

InFront wrote:

I'm a student, not a business man, but it absolutely does happen that people with low fluency in English work on production lines where they operate machinery, often heavy machinery.
Visit an abbatoir (as an extreme example) and see how many of their production line staff, using knives and saws, could write an English essay. Being honest, I really don't think it's important.

oh, no, i didnt say it didnt happen.
i said i wouldnt hire anyone that couldnt communicate to work for me.

and its not about being the next james joyce (who i happen to detest by the way), its about being able to work as a team with your fellow workers, and to be able to work with superiours. communication is the cornerstone of of any relationship, be it personal or business, and for me it is one of the most important factors in getting things done.

i dont know how many times ive gone into a shop or a bugger bar or something only to have to use sign language to try and buy something. it pisses me off.
im not saying there is anything wrong with the people working htere, im sure they are lovely people, and im not xenophobic or racist. i just want to be able to buy something and leave. i dont need a game of charades when doing it.

the ability to communicate is paramount. id be worried by anyone who couldnt see that, even from their own experiences.

Zombrex · 03-05-2007 08:48AM

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Bzzt. Trade languages are called so because they are used for trade. If they were only used for tourism, they would be called "tourist languages", now, wouldn't they?

So when you are in France working its ok that you speak English with people so long as you are conducting trade, but you shouldn't speak English to them, you should speak French, if the conversation moves over to how good a day you are having or what you are doing for the summer

Also in the airports there is a line for tourists who have to speak to a French person in French (since they aren't here for trade after all) and a line for trader who can speak in English about their lost luggage because after all they can use a trade language once they are here to trade goods

Ummm ... Yes, I'd imagine you haven't thought that one through very much .... :rolleyes:

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Trade is defined as the exchange of goods and/or services for the mutual benefit of the parties involved. Maybe I should just attach a crayon drawing or something.

LOL :rolleyes:

You do realise that tourism is a "trade" (heck it is a major industry) now don't you ... :rolleyes:

SimpleSam06 wrote:

Wow, you're hitting all the notes tonight. Time you stopped putting forward your little straw man, that tourists and migrant workers operate under the same linguistic rules.

The same "linguistic rules"

Wow it must be nice to just make things up when your argument isn't go well. I know this is Afterhours not politics or humanities, but you could at least make an effort

:rolleyes:

SimpleSam06 wrote:

They don't. If I lose my bags, I'm a tourist.

So businessmen don't carry bags into airports, or if they do they have a different line from the tourists.

Funny because I was on a business trip ("trade" as you would call it) and I seem to remember having check in with me. But clearly that was my imagination :rolleyes:

SimpleSam06 wrote:

If I travel to a new country with no idea of the langage in hopes of suckling and getting fat on the teat of a wealthy economy, I'm a lazy muppet.

Clearly Sam there is not much point arguing with you because you have a rather ridiculous negative attitude to all immigrants (or at least the ones who come here with bad English).

It would take a couple of books on economics to even attempt to show you the benefit that foreign workers have given to this country in the last 15 year. But then I doubt you would listen anyway

Enjoy living under that rock dreaming of Ireland 50 years ago.

Dyr · 03-05-2007 08:50AM

I remember talking to the neighbour there before christmas and he was telling me he's being squeezed outta his job cos the polish lads were refusing to talk english and had started filling out all their manifests, logs etc in polish. So yeah, f*** that whole one world PC guff for a game of cowboys, speak english or die to quote a certain band. :eek:

Plissken1 · 03-05-2007 10:23AM

Bambi wrote:

I remember talking to the neighbour there before christmas and he was telling me he's being squeezed outta his job cos the polish lads were refusing to talk english and had started filling out all their manifests, logs etc in polish. So yeah, f*** that whole one world PC guff for a game of cowboys, speak english or die to quote a certain band. :eek:

Its so funny reading about Irish people insisting that everyone speaks English, you just can't make this up, classic. The irony is lost on most of these eejits though, not because they don't get irony, but because the Irish are so far up their own arse these days.

I am glad we have allowed all the foreign workers to come over here, I had to leave this island for seven years because our politicians were too busy lining their own pockets to care about the economy. These chancers were quite happy to let their fellow citizens leave the island in their droves, because it solved the unemployment problem for them, they didn't have to lift a finger and it was sorted. Entire generations disappeared overnight. So now its our turn to look after immigrants, LIVE WITH IT.

Rant over, I think ill go for a chocca mocca americana cappo coffee now and read the property section, while talking in my D4, plastic English accent !!! well everyone else is doing it, I dont want to feel left out now do I ??

Kiith · 03-05-2007 10:27AM

I'm all for allowing immigrants into the country, but letting them in when they cant even communicate with us basically means they are useless. How are they supposed to contribute? The gardai shouldnt have to learn polish, the polish should learn English.

I have nothing against Polish, or anyone else coming to Ireland for whatever reason, i'm just using them as an example. There should be a basic language requirement for any immigrant entering any country. I for one wouldnt travel to another country to live in, without learning at least the basic language.

Zombrex · 03-05-2007 11:02AM

Bambi wrote:

I remember talking to the neighbour there before christmas and he was telling me he's being squeezed outta his job cos the polish lads were refusing to talk english and had started filling out all their manifests, logs etc in polish.

Well I was talking to my mate down the pub and he says that your neighbour likes to dress up in womens clothing and rape sheep ...

So who you going to believe!!

Dyr · 03-05-2007 11:05AM

Plissken1 wrote:

Its so funny reading about Irish people insisting that everyone speaks English, you just can't make this up, classic. The irony is lost on most of these eejits though, not because they don't get irony, but because the Irish are so far up their own arse these days.

I am glad we have allowed all the foreign workers to come over here, I had to leave this island for seven years because our politicians were too busy lining their own pockets to care about the economy. These chancers were quite happy to let their fellow citizens leave the island in their droves, because it solved the unemployment problem for them, they didn't have to lift a finger and it was sorted. Entire generations disappeared overnight. So now its our turn to look after immigrants, LIVE WITH IT.

Rant over, I think ill go for a chocca mocca americana cappo coffee now and read the property section, while talking in my D4, plastic English accent !!! well everyone else is doing it, I dont want to feel left out now do I ??

hmmm you seem to be quoting my post but waffling on about something completely unrelated. Odd.

Anywhoo I'd have no problem if irish was the predominant language in this country, i'd love it actually. Yer average pole might have trouble serving you that chocca mocca though.

Zombrex · 03-05-2007 11:07AM

Kiith wrote:

I'm all for allowing immigrants into the country, but letting them in when they cant even communicate with us basically means they are useless.

So that would mean that pretty much every Irish person who cannot speak French or German (or Chinese or Japanase etc etc) but is living in that country, is useless. Who knew?

I better ring my mate who has been in Belgium for the last 2 years despite barely being able to string 3 words of French together when he went over there, and find out what the hell he has been doing the last 2 years because I was sure he was working hard and earning good money. What a fool I am.

Kiith wrote:

The gardai shouldnt have to learn polish, the polish should learn English.

The Gardai don't have to learn Polish, they want to learn Polish. They came up with the idea :rolleyes:

Owen · 03-05-2007 11:08AM

Kiith wrote:

There should be a basic language requirement for any immigrant entering any country.

No matter how many of you suggest this, it will never happen, will you design the language test? Will you put in place the monetary and intellectual funding to create a Government Department at every Airport and Ferry Terminal? Will you pay the Exam Supervisors? How do you even go about deciding what's an acceptable level of English?

Let people come in with their own language, and necessity will make them learn ours. In the mean time, they contribute to our economy by paying PRSI, and doing the jobs Irish people would be too embarassed to do. That's what's called a win-win situation.

Kintarō Hattori · 03-05-2007 11:10AM

Your talking to a brick wall wicknight!

Dyr · 03-05-2007 11:12AM

Wicknight wrote:

Well I was talking to my mate down the pub and he says that your neighbour likes to dress up in womens clothing and rape sheep ...

So who you going to believe!!

The difference between my neighbour and your mate is that i actually have a neighbour.

Gardai learn basic Polish in their bid to serve immigrants

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