Planning on 0.45 acre?

MelCork · 12-06-2006 01:44PM #1

I am looking into the possibility of building on a family plot of land.

It is in Cork county, situated less than 1 mile from my parent's home, approx. 0.9 of an acre, with one cottage already standing, and occupied - built probably 80 years ago, and modernised 10 years ago.

It is in a designated scenic area, and situated directly on a wide bend - entrance would be alongside the existing entrance.

I grew up in the area, worked there until my employer ceased trading, was heavily involved in local life until about 3 years ago - established the parish website which is still in existence, acted as translator for, and travelled abroad at own expense with, the local twinning committee.
I moved away for about 3 years due to work change (commute became too long) and have moved back to the area 3 months ago due to a relationship breakup. I cannot afford to buy a new build (I am a single parent of 1 child), and the house that I have been looking at within my budget, I spoke to a local councillor about, and he seriously recommended that i avoid the estate. I would genuinely be 'housing in need'.

What are the chances of the plot size being relaxed in the 'suitable site' stipulation of the Supplementary Information submission? The size is very close to the 1/2 acre minimum, but i have been told that 3/4 acre per house is now the norm.

Any past experiences would be welcome.

tred · 12-06-2006 04:05PM

MelCork wrote:

I am looking into the possibility of building on a family plot of land.

It is in Cork county, situated less than 1 mile from my parent's home, approx. 0.9 of an acre, with one cottage already standing, and occupied - built probably 80 years ago, and modernised 10 years ago.

It is in a designated scenic area, and situated directly on a wide bend - entrance would be alongside the existing entrance.

I grew up in the area, worked there until my employer ceased trading, was heavily involved in local life until about 3 years ago - established the parish website which is still in existence, acted as translator for, and travelled abroad at own expense with, the local twinning committee.
I moved away for about 3 years due to work change (commute became too long) and have moved back to the area 3 months ago due to a relationship breakup. I cannot afford to buy a new build (I am a single parent of 1 child), and the house that I have been looking at within my budget, I spoke to a local councillor about, and he seriously recommended that i avoid the estate. I would genuinely be 'housing in need'.

What are the chances of the plot size being relaxed in the 'suitable site' stipulation of the Supplementary Information submission? The size is very close to the 1/2 acre minimum, but i have been told that 3/4 acre per house is now the norm.

Any past experiences would be welcome.

I would recommened you try and arrange a face to face meeting with a planner. Maybe if you relax the size of the house then maybe they will allow it?. Even though its a coutry development plan, each county has its own rules and stipulations.

or even better go and get your local councillor to find out. they will meet them much quicker.

MelCork · 12-06-2006 04:28PM

thanks Tred - I spoke to the local councillor over the weekend, he was v concerned about the size of the site (we thought it was circa 3/4 acre) and said there would be no chance.

We measured yesterday and it comes closer to 0.9 acre and after a quick call to him today, he recommended submitting an outline application, without a pre-planning meeting, as in his opinion they will reject the proposal immediately - to then submit regardless would aggravate the planners.

I was just wondering if anyone had been successful in such or similar circumstances. I don't want to put my life on hold for 1 1/2 - 2 years either if there is no chance of a relaxation of the guidelines.

beolight · 12-06-2006 04:36PM

re size of site it is small but not unfeasible using a bio septic tank unit designed for the purposes every application will be considered on its merit particularly where local needs can be established

be careful about pre planning a lot of county councils are now insisting on writing down everything that is discussed at these meetings so if you mess up on local needs at this it may scupper any chance you have

before setting up meeting with planners make sure you have the local needs proviso well covered

go down to your planning office and ask to see county development plan

get a copy of the section dealing with local needs/rural development and read it , also if they have a local needs application form get that also

you will then have to get supporting documentation to prove your are indeed a valuable asset to your community and play an active role in it letters from community leaders/ clubs/ parish priest/rector

if you breakup involved a family house you may have to get supporting documentation to show former family home/ property is not yours. if you havent already put on the local housing list do it now also it will help if you can show that you have researched and tried to get any affordable housing units that have been developed in your area, if there has been no initiatives of this kind point this out in your application

also get documentation showing family links to the area ordnance survey maps outlining where any other members of your family reside etc

once you have all this then meet up with local councillor and let him look though everything you have and he will advise if anything else is needed

then go to planners looking for preplanning meeting

prepare everything beforehand

would be better if you can afford it to somes plans of what you are proposing maybe go to one of the off the shelf websites for house designs you dont need anything formal even pictures of similiar type houses

let them see that you are aware of enviromental impact of one off housing in rural areas (there will be a section in development plan dealing with this also try toread this section also and take on board their views on these)and what you propose to do to mitigate this i.e water run off/ septic tanks/ rainwater harvesting/ i.e eco friendly initiatives will be incoporated into overall planning and design for areas

sightlines for accesing your proposed house may also be important depending on what type of road it fronts onto, dont take the lead on this let them bring this up but be prepared to answere it

in short do your homework and prepare well

paulocon · 12-06-2006 04:42PM

I think beolight has covered everything there.

Advice re getting up to speed on local needs is spot on. I know of someone who even dragged out pictures of parents/uncles/aunts in an old school yearbook. Get references from any local clubs you have been involved in (again, this came in valuable from at least one person I know of).

You will also need a good architect on your side who will design something very sympathetic to the area. If you have someone in mind, have a chat to them before the pre-planning meeting to see what suggestions they may have..

MelCork · 12-06-2006 04:57PM

Thanks for all that guys.

I think I will bypass the pre-planning meeting per discussions with teh local councillor, but will go ahead with an outline planning application - i will also try to prepare artists impressions of how the developed site might look, etc. I wasn't aware that random documentation would be considered along with the formal type required. Time to roll up the sleeves then and get my homework done!

Does anyone know if it is ever done to leave it up to the planners to decide what type of dwelling is most acceptable? e.g. submit more than one proposed design / house style and let them pick the most suitable?
I'm not too fussy, as the location is A1 in terms of view etc; if that was approved, the design would be less important to me.

muffler · 12-06-2006 06:33PM

If its only outline permission you are applying for dont worry about house design at this stage although you could mention in a covering letter that it will be designed to integrate with the landscape and topography of the area etc.

If you are successful with an outline application then they will impose conditions in relation to the type of house that will be permitted.

Personally I cant see any probs with the size of your site but as has already been mentioned the different councils have different requirements. A secondry treatment/package plant proposal should overcome any difficulties with sewage treatment and disposal.

You will need someone to prepare the application for you (maps etc) so take advice from them also

paulocon · 12-06-2006 11:31PM

Have to say that I am very suprised with the coucillor's advice to avoid the pre-planning meeting. I know of a couple of cases where planning was obtained after not only a pre-planning meeting but a continuation on from this as regards input into the final house design/positioning etc. I would be of the opinion that it's best to have the council on your side and involve them as much as possible with the whole process. After all, if your local needs requirements hold up, it'll be very hard for them to refuse permission outright.

That said, I would be more familiar with the North-East of the country and I would have to take the councillors advice on this one!

Best of luck with this and please keep us all informed with how you get on, very interesting case and I hope you are granted the privilidge in settling back into your community.

beolight · 12-06-2006 11:49PM

i have to agree with the last poster here, pre planning meeting definetely.it is actually encouraged by the planners and when you apply for full planning it is a question on the form

outline planning permission is only an indicator and they may well decide to refuse planning when full planning applied for

i hasten to add but a lot of councillors/politicians are full of hot air and some would leave you to believe that no planning application will be granted without their input

their advise should always be taken with a pinch of salt

best to get the planners onboard at earliest stage and to demonstrate to them that your case is genuine and that you are prepared to meet all their concerns and incoporate their recommendations in your proposal

also forgot to say in last post spend a day or two in the planning office looking at recent planning decisions(granted and refused) in your area and from this you should get a good insight into what the planners deem acceptable for the area pay close attention to conditions attached to planning permissions and try and incoporate these into your proposal.

also do a search on an bord pleanala site for your area and read the reports

agree with last poster get an architect onboard if you can afford one but remember their are good and bad architects when your researching planning decisions have a look at who the architects are, the good ones should stand out.

CJhaughey · 13-06-2006 12:03AM

In my experience also in Cococo I have found that local councillors are mostly full of BS, they will only say what they think that you will like to hear.
In our case the planner actually refused to have a pre-planning meeting with us!
With regards to house design, the book published by cork coco called rural planning design guide is useful in determining what kind of house type the council want to see built.
Saying that you see many examples of design that is actually discouraged in the book!
Go to the pre-planning meeting, listen to the planner and make notes of what they say, this could be very important in the future, always get things in writing and remember that the development levy is based on sq meterage over 40m2 and is payable before planning is granted so try and design a house with a small footprint.

muffler · 13-06-2006 12:31AM

I assume that most Councils will have an established pre-planning system in place. Up to now it was fairly slow because there were no legal time limits in place and in most cases you could never meet the planner on a one to one basis. They just give a written reply which wasnt worth the paper it was on. But to conform with a requirement of the 2000 Planning & Development Act they have just introduced the statutory version of this in Donegal and must now meet with you and here is an example of what is done here now. This facility should be available now in every Council

I think its fairly self explanatory and should give you an indication as to what data and info you will need if you do request a pre-planning meeting.

As stated earlier the Development plan will vary from County to County as will the individual planners so it is difficult to suggest which is the best option for you - i.e. pre-planning or an outline application.

Definitely get professional advice on this. Shouldn't really say this but if you know someone who knows someone etc who works in the planning office or indeed the Council for your area then they should be able to reccomend one or two people who would have a good track record with the planners

MelCork · 13-06-2006 01:35PM

I've taken an A4 page of notes from your responses, thank you so much everyone.
I think a day off work to get a good application together is in order. Make it a good shot as I'll probably only have one chance.

Can anybody recommend a good website for pics of traditional design houses?

paulocon · 13-06-2006 01:47PM

MelCork,

Best of luck with that. Keep us informed with how you get on.

CJhaughey · 13-06-2006 02:18PM

Traditional design in Cork is <8m gable width ~45 degree roof, finished in flat slate, neutral finish plastered exterior and barged gables.
The rural planning design guide has lots of pics of traditional house types.
€20 from that place in oliver plunkett st that sells books

MelCork · 01-05-2007 01:39PM

I submitted an application for full planning on the site earlier this year, and was advised to withdraw it as it was going to be refused.

One of the reasons was that the submission we made to improve the line of sight wasn't sufficient and it was considered dangerous (there are 2 commercial premises next door so there can be a bit of traffic); Our proposal for the sight issue was to raze down a gradiated verge, which would have gone about 75% of the way towards the recommended sight line, and we had 100% the other direction. The second reason, from what I gather is that they deemed the site to be too small (which puzzles me, I think they have measured it as 1/4 acre, which would be incorrect). Not in my favour also is that this is a scenic area.

I'm doing my best to find out more, but in the meantime, does anyone have ideas of how to proceed? Should I resubmit, try to find out the exact reasons for the imminent refusal, try to go via another county councillor... I imagine they will be fairly busy the next few weeks, then again it might be the opportune time to go after them...

delly · 01-05-2007 03:03PM

I'll move this thread to the new planning forum for you Mel, might get the best results there.

MelCork · 02-05-2007 10:08AM

Thanks delly!

kmick · 02-05-2007 10:14AM

Imminent refusal? What does that mean. Wait until the accept/refusal notice comes out and see what you need to do then. You can make the suggested changes and re-apply. You cant make a plan based on the amount of info you have now - which is essentially none.

MelCork · 02-05-2007 01:02PM

I was advised to withdraw as it was going to be refused; from what I understand it is inadvised to have a refusal on a site, for the purposes of reapplying, and better to withdraw the application.

muffler · 02-05-2007 01:25PM

MelCork wrote:

I was advised to withdraw as it was going to be refused; from what I understand it is inadvised to have a refusal on a site, for the purposes of reapplying, and better to withdraw the application.

That is indeed correct. But you would have been aware of the reasons for which it was going to be refused. What you need to do is address those reasons before reapplying

MelCork · 02-05-2007 03:39PM

Thanks Muffler.
What I've found out so far is what I said above. I think entrance is the main problem, not sure how or if we could get around that issue.

muffler · 02-05-2007 06:01PM

Look for a meeting on site with the roads engineer or get your architect to do this. Hopefully that would iron out any problems in relation to the sight lines and whatever works that need to be done to achieve same.

I dont know if the engineer would accede to a request for a meeting but here in Donegal it can be arranged even if it means getting the local councillor to set it up

Planning on 0.45 acre?

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