Article:Ahern and Briefcase of Cash issue

bonkey · 20-04-2007 07:05PM

Glenbhoy wrote:

I am shocked and appalled that this was moved to 'conspiracy theories',

Because you have more proof than hearsay?

Let me ask you Tristrame, do you think FF are better off with Mr. Ahern as their leader and if so, why? Do you think that this little story on boards has the potential to derail FF's chances?

Ahhh. Right. Something isn't a conspiracy theory based on whether or not you have evidence....its a conspiracy theory based on the outcome you'd like to see!!!

How anyone can have such blind allegiance to such an incompetent leader is a little worrying imo, anyway, what will you do this sunday, when Frank Connolly and Jody Corcoran publish a whole new bunch of stories?

Personally, I'd ask what they're doing not handing their evidence to a criminal prosecutor if their interest is genuinely in seeing justice done.

20-04-2007 08:36PM

Voipjunkie wrote:

Unlikely that they would cash cheques when he did not have a bank account

Actually at the time,you could cash cheques in a bank no bother.
Stopping that was a recent thing.

No the fact that he was bringing said briefcase to Manchester ie out of the jurisdiction and that the Minister of Finance thought it was easier to deposit large amounts of cash with a garda than open a bank account if he was that lax with his own money what was he like with ours.

I dunno,whats the budget surplus been like in the last decade or so?

Yes the Maths also suggests that if that was the case it would be hard to believe that the same person could be almost destitute needing to be bailed out by his pals just a few months later

Well I dunno about you but If I gave every penny I had up for a separation settlement and paid for the education of my daughters using that and the donations,I'd be starting out at zero balance.
Then if I only spent 300 out of 800 a week,I'd still be at 50k after 2 years.
Seriously do the maths.

What is flimsy about it this was after all a member of the Gardai who claims to have witnessed this

No it's an interpretation on what he said that he witnessed.We've no idea of the sums of money involved and we know that the guard could not possibly have had the benefit of the knowledge we have today about Aherns finances in the early 90's.

I've concluded that in my opinion the Guard has a different interpretation today given the knowledge that came out with "manchestergate" and it's more reasonable to assume that that together with his distaste for the FG spin on this ( putting him on speaker phone without permission etc ) that he is dissimilar in his views now to some of the posters here ie the ones with the Accuse now and hope the evidence will come later mentality.

When I see actual evidence to support the contrary,I'll consider altering my view.

Villain · 20-04-2007 09:13PM

There is always conspiracy theories where politcs is concerned, I bet if you had the time to go through threads in Politics about Sinn Fein you would find loads of conspiracy theories.

Just close the thread Mod's imo, it has no place here.

20-04-2007 09:45PM

irish1 wrote:

There is always conspiracy theories where politcs is concerned, I bet if you had the time to go through threads in Politics about Sinn Fein you would find loads of conspiracy theories.

I was wondering when you would bring up the party you support.

Just close the thread Mod's imo, it has no place here.

I fail to see your reasoning ...
why would you want to close down debate on a conspiracy theory? Are things not going the way you'd like in the debate?

Villain · 20-04-2007 09:57PM

Tristrame wrote:

I was wondering when you would bring up the party you support.

I fail to see your reasoning ...
why would you want to close down debate on a conspiracy theory? Are things not going the way you'd like in the debate?

I support?? Define support, I suppose I voted for Mj Nolan in the last general election he is a FF member so I could be seen to be a FF supporter. I don't like one sided discussion and I support the movement from Violence to peace in the north which Sinn Fein have done more for than any other party that I can vote for so I join discussion here and put my opinion across.

Tristrame you were the one making allegations against a former Garda and when I stated he should have looked in the case and used the example of me giving you a briefcase of drugs to keep overnight you could only reply with "this is getting silly".

Im only too happy to continue this discussion or any other in the Politics forum, thats where this thread belongs if you were to move every thread that is based on simalar reports i.e. newspaper reports, the Politics forum would be a very quite place, I really don't see how this thread is different than many many others that have been discussed in the politics forum.

20-04-2007 10:06PM

irish1 wrote:

I support?? Define support, I suppose I voted for Mj Nolan in the last general election he is a FF member so I could be seen to be a FF supporter. I don't like one sided discussion and I support the movement from Violence to peace in the north which Sinn Fein have done more for than any other party that I can vote for so I join discussion here and put my opinion across.

Look I didn't come down in the last shower,I've been on the politics board and modding it long enough to be aware of your political inclinations.
It doesn't matter to me who you are fond of politically or sympathise with.This is a democracy.

Tristrame you were the one making allegations against a former Garda and when I stated he should have looked in the case and used the example of me giving you a briefcase of drugs to keep overnight you could only reply with "this is getting silly".

It was silly-Ahern Drugs LoL.

Im only too happy to continue this discussion or any other in the Politics forum, thats where this thread belongs if you were to move every thread that is based on simalar reports i.e. newspaper reports, the Politics forum would be a very quite place, I really don't see how this thread is different than many many others that have been discussed in the politics forum.

I moved this thread because it was a discussion on theories with no evidence and still is.

Villain · 20-04-2007 10:26PM

Tristrame wrote:

Look I didn't come down in the last shower,I've been on the politics board and modding it long enough to be aware of your political inclinations.
It doesn't matter to me who you are fond of politically or sympathise with.This is a democracy.

And I'm not afraid to say who or what I support its just I'm not like my grandfather who supported FF all his life no matter what they did I support what I feel is right at the time, that may be Gerry Adams and Sinn Fein in relation to the north and bringing peace to this Island at this time or it may be FG for their proposals to reform stamp duty.

It also depends on how far back in history you want to go in relation to Irish Politics I mean people would rightly condemn the Killings of the IRA in the last 30 years yet they may support the actions of Michael Collins.

Tristrame wrote:

It was silly-Ahern Drugs LoL.

The logic wasn't silly at all imo, if you are given an item to keep in your pocession you should surely check the contents of it, its just plain common sense imo.

Tristrame wrote:

I moved this thread because it was a discussion on theories with no evidence and still is.

No Evidence of what exactly? A Garda made some statements on a telephone conversation that two people heard, one an elected TD the other a Journalist, those statements were printed in the media, not very different from many of the stories than been in our tribunals over the last few years and have been discussed in the politcis forum over and over again?

20-04-2007 10:32PM

irish1 wrote:

No Evidence of what exactly? A Garda made some statements on a telephone conversation that two people heard, one an elected TD the other a Journalist, those statements were printed in the media, not very different from many of the stories than been in our tribunals over the last few years and have been discussed in the politcis forum over and over again?

A Garda went to a T.D with his suspicions over a decade ago and had his phonecall put on loud speaker without permission for a journalist.
2 newspapers decide to run with the ten year old story with nothing new last week.
We seem to have gone over that quite a few times.
Is there anything new to add?

Re repeating that chronology and those facts (the way this was reported and what was reported rather than the substantives which are in actual fact missing if they exist at all) is boring.

Villain · 20-04-2007 10:46PM

Tristrame wrote:

Re repeating that chronology and those facts (the way this was reported and what was reported rather than the substantives which are in actual fact missing if they exist at all) is boring.

But we have done that on politics for years and years, if you read through my posts here I don't believe I have accused anyone of anything I have given my opinion and proposed questions, you on the other hand have made accusations about a retired garda based on the information that has been reported.

20-04-2007 11:01PM

irish1 wrote:

you on the other hand have made accusations about a retired garda based on the information that has been reported.

Thats nonsense.
I suggested it's illegal to rifel through other peoples property without their permission.
I still believe it is.
The Guard admitted that he did,so I havent accused him of anything.

On the other hand...You have suggested that the Guard should have opened the briefcase based on the assumption that the minister for finance could have drugs in it.
Ergo you suggested that the now Taoiseach could reasonably be suspected of being in the possesion of drugs LOL.

One position is reasonable-the other is very tinfoil hatty...

Villain · 20-04-2007 11:46PM

Tristrame wrote:

Thats nonsense.
I suggested it's illegal to rifel through other peoples property without their permission.
I still believe it is.
The Guard admitted that he did,so I havent accused him of anything.

You said

A Guard illegally takes a look inside the brief case

is that not accusing him of breaking the law i.e. illegally doing something? in fact you repeated it again by saying

The guard that illegally had a look inside the folder or brief case or whatever

Tristrame wrote:

On the other hand...You have suggested that the Guard should have opened the briefcase based on the assumption that the minister for finance could have drugs in it.

Show me where I exactly said that, what I said was

I don't think the Garda should be accused of anything, if you are given something to keep in your pocession you surely would ensure the package doesn't contain anything illegal, e.g. Tristrame say I call down to your house and give you a briefcase and ask you to keep it overnight and it contains a kilo of drugs that are illegal would you be breaking any law by checking the contents?

and I also said

Whether he is on detail or not he should still always check he wasn't in pocession of any illegal packages

Tristrame wrote:

Ergo you suggested that the now Taoiseach could reasonably be suspected of being in the possesion of drugs LOL.

One position is reasonable-the other is very tinfoil hatty...

nope your making it up as you go along, you have said an ex Garda commited an illegal act I said imo he was entitled to look in the case and I used the logic that if I gave YOU a briefcase with drugs, I never said the Minsiter for Finance had drugs in a bag or that Bertie had, in fact I never even said there was anything illegal in the bag I said the Garda should have checked to make sure there wasn't, read what I wrote I never made an accusation you did on 3 occasions its very simple to see tbh.

21-04-2007 12:10AM

irish1 wrote:

You said is that not accusing him of breaking the law i.e. illegally doing something?

whats your point? If I gave someone something to look after and found them rifeling through it,I could make a complaint.
I probably wouldnt make the complaint but I could.
Is the subject of this thread gone so boring now that you want to turn it around to being about me and you?
I'm not interested in that .Maybe some other time.

nope your making it up as you go along, you have said an ex Garda commited an illegal act I said imo he was entitled to look in the case and I used the logic that if I gave YOU a briefcase with drugs, I never said the Minsiter for Finance had drugs in a bag or that Bertie had, in fact I never even said there was anything illegal in the bag I said the Garda should have checked to make sure there wasn't, read what I wrote I never made an accusation you did on 3 occasions its very simple to see tbh.

You are wrong.
You were justifying the Guard entering the briefcase by giving me the example of what if there were drugs in a brief case or something given to me.
We are discussing Aherns briefcase so the case you are making is the Guard could suspect there to be drugs in it.
Silly if ever I saw silly to be honest.

Villain · 21-04-2007 12:24AM

Tristrame wrote:

whats your point? If I gave someone something to look after and found them rifeling through it,I could make a complaint.
I probably wouldnt make the complaint but I could.
Is the subject of this thread gone so boring now that you want to turn it around to being about me and you?
I'm not interested in that .Maybe some other time.

My point is you made an accusation that a ex Garda carried out an illegal act on 3 occasions but you won't accept that you made such an allegation now

You are wrong.
You were justifying the Guard entering the briefcase by giving me the example of what if there were drugs in a brief case or something given to me.
We are discussing Aherns briefcase so the case you are making is the Guard could suspect there to be drugs in it.
Silly if ever I saw silly to be honest.

I'm not wrong in fact I couldn't be any more right because I know what I said and I'm accepting it not avoiding it, I said the Garda should have looked in the bag to ensure there wasn't anything illegal in it just like at a Garda checkpoint for drink driving a Garda should make me give a breath sample to ensure I'm not driving over the acohol limit, I'm not saying I am over or I'm not I'm saying the Garda should check. Now I suppose you are going to say that I said Bertie and the Minister for Finance are drink driving! Its called logic Tristrame and I used the example of me giving you a bag of drugs to mind I never mentioned anything about drugs being in the briefcase that Bertie had, I never even said there was anything illegal in it.

You on the other hand? well you have accused a ex garda of carrying out an illgeal act, pretty simple if you read it all.

21-04-2007 12:32AM

irish1 wrote:

My point is you made an accusation that a ex Garda carried out an illegal act on 3 occasions but you won't accept that you made such an allegation now

Actually it was twice...and I was very clear in what I was saying.
All you seem to be doing is disagree'ing with me which is fine but gets us nowhere and is nothing new in the subject.

One thing I did ask more than twice though is,do you have anything new to add?

I'm not wrong in fact I couldn't be any more right because I know what I said and I'm accepting it not avoiding it, I said the Garda should have looked in the bag to ensure there wasn't anything illegal in it just like at a Garda checkpoint for drink driving a Garda should make me give a breath sample to ensure I'm not driving over the acohol limit, I'm not saying I am over or I'm not I'm saying the Garda should check. Now I suppose you are going to say that I said Bertie and the Minister for Finance are drink driving! Its called logic Tristrame and I used the example of me giving you a bag of drugs to mind I never mentioned anything about drugs being in the briefcase that Bertie had, I never even said there was anything illegal in it.

You on the other hand? well you have accused a ex garda of carrying out an illgeal act, pretty simple if you read it all.

Ad hominem to be honest

Villain · 21-04-2007 12:49AM

Tristrame wrote:

Actually it was twice...and I was very clear in what I was saying.
All you seem to be doing is disagree'ing with me which is fine but gets us nowhere and is nothing new in the subject.

Firstly and most importantly I'm not going to tolerate any unsubstatiated allegations made in this thread other than comments or discussion of the article.

That was your first post in this thread before you made the accusation about the garda. Just seems a little contradictive?

One thing I did ask more than twice though is,do you have anything new to add?

No I asked the mod to close the thread about 8 posts ago but then you decided to post a reply to my post hinting that I wanted it closed becasue the debate wasn't going the way I wanted!

Ad hominem to be honest

Well actually I think that was more you in the last few posts, I think if you had simply posted

Tristrame wrote:

touche

it might have been more accuarate and while my latin isn't the best but I do believe I addressed the substance of your last post i.e. I never said Bertie or the Minister for fianace had drugs in a case but if you choose to use a Latin phase rather than admit I was right thats ok with me.

PS It nothing personal at all I just like a good old discussion be it with you or anyone else

(Now is this where we kiss and make up and leave the conspiracy forum back to its quite ways?)

21-04-2007 01:00AM

irish1 wrote:

That was your first post in this thread before you made the accusation about the garda. Just seems a little contradictive?

I might point out two things to you.
(1) we are in a different forum now,the theories one

and (2)What you are describing as an accusation,I'm reporting as (i)fact and (ii) something I could make a complaint about/illegal- so essentially all thats happening is we are disagreeing.

No I asked the mod to close the thread about 8 posts ago but then you decided to post a reply to my post hinting that I wanted it closed becasue the debate wasn't going the way I wanted!

God,If typing unnecessarally was in some way aerobic excercise, there would be a point to all this.

Well actually I think that was more you in the last few posts, I think if you had simply posted it might have been more accuarate and while my latin isn't the best but I do believe I addressed the substance of your last post i.e. I never said Bertie or the Minister for fianace had drugs in a case but if you choose to use a Latin phase rather than admit I was right thats ok with me.

Thats actually even more textbook ad hominem than the variation of it I replied to the last time.Don't worry everybody gets dragged into using it including me.

Now is this where we kiss and make up and leave the conspiracy forum back to its quite ways?

I suppose so but no tongues.

Villain · 21-04-2007 01:10AM

No Tongues? hardly worth it so

Dirk Gently · 21-04-2007 01:10AM

irish1 wrote:

No Tongues? hardly worth it so

don't forget to drop the hand

parsi · 21-04-2007 01:31AM

Tristrame wrote:

A Guard illegally takes a look inside the brief case a decade ago when he wouldnt have known that Ahern doesnt hold a/cs and instead deals all in cash so he immediately smells a rat.
/QUOTE]

Please detail how this is illegal ? The member of AGs was detailed with protecting Mr. Aherne and surely should check all disruption-vectors in the vicinity ?

Has this member of An Garda Si/ocha/na been charged with a crime ?

21-04-2007 09:04AM

parsi wrote:

A Guard illegally takes a look inside the brief case a decade ago when he wouldnt have known that Ahern doesnt hold a/cs and instead deals all in cash so he immediately smells a rat.

Please detail how this is illegal ?

I already did.

The member of AGs was detailed with protecting Mr. Aherne and surely should check all disruption-vectors in the vicinity ?

Yeah maybe he should have frisked Ahern and celia every time too :rolleyes:

Has this member of An Garda Si/ocha/na been charged with a crime ?

No complaint was made.
If you read the whole thread and the article ,you will see that this wasn't an issue for Mr Higgins or the Sindo journalist as all they were interested in was the money which with the benefit of todays knowledge on Ahern could easily be accounted for.
I doubt Ahern 13 years on is going to bother.

Again if you read the thread I mentioned it one more time than once so I didn't make an issue of it either I merely pointed it out.
To be honest it says a lot for the triviality of the initial accusations minus much evidence made in the article that such a hoo haw is being made here on this tangent.
But hey I don't mind.

Glenbhoy · 21-04-2007 03:21PM

bonkey wrote:

Because you have more proof than hearsay?

Ahhh. Right. Something isn't a conspiracy theory based on whether or not you have evidence....its a conspiracy theory based on the outcome you'd like to see!!!

Personally, I'd ask what they're doing not handing their evidence to a criminal prosecutor if their interest is genuinely in seeing justice done.

If as you seem to suggest these allegations are scurrilous, why does Mr Ahern not sue, we know he's not afraid to, we also know that he's fond of monitoring newspaper headlines.
Re your last point, as you are aware this has been reported to the tribunal by Jim Higgins, after the tribunal have finished with it, then CAB or whichever branch of the gardai will get involved if necessary.
Can we move this back to politics tomorrow then, or will someone have to open a new thread on the new revelations tomorrow?

Voipjunkie · 21-04-2007 05:30PM

Tristrame wrote:

I already did. .

No you did not

You have said it was illegal but have been asked on numerous occasions under what law and you have been completely silent on it
Your only suggestion is that you could make a complaint to the gardai of course you could but that does not mean that it is illegal or any law has been broken. I could make a complaint to the Gardai that the guy sitting beside me on the bus farted and I had to breath it in but that does not equate with it being illegal.

I was under the impression that when you made an allegation or claim on the politics forum that you had to be able to back it up perhaps that is why you moved it to the conspiracy forum.

21-04-2007 07:45PM

Voipjunkie wrote:

No you did not

You have said it was illegal but have been asked on numerous occasions under what law and you have been completely silent on it
Your only suggestion is that you could make a complaint to the gardai of course you could but that does not mean that it is illegal or any law has been broken. I could make a complaint to the Gardai that the guy sitting beside me on the bus farted and I had to breath it in but that does not equate with it being illegal.

As you probably already know,A Garda has a legal entitlement to search your belongings if he arrests you or if he has a search warrant or if he catches you in a bar after hours.Other than that the search is as legal as if you or I were doing it outside of an agreement entered allowing the search.
Any evidence obtained without the warrant is of course inadmissable in a court of law.

I shouldnt really have to be posting those kind of basics.
I shouldn't have had to give the basic maths lesson earlier either.

I was under the impression that when you made an allegation or claim on the politics forum that you had to be able to back it up perhaps that is why you moved it to the conspiracy forum.

I already thanked you earlier for pointing that out,do you not remember or is repetition fun ? That said I'm fairly satisfied that the Guard did not have the law behind him in searching the briefcase which is the basis of my opinion on the illegality of it-you can agree to disagree of course.

Glenbhoy wrote:

If as you seem to suggest these allegations are scurrilous, why does Mr Ahern not sue, we know he's not afraid to, we also know that he's fond of monitoring newspaper headlines.

Why bother? The Indo is only reporting the story and hasn't given a view on it-at least not in last sundays article and they have reported both Celia Larkin's and Aherns denial.

Re your last point, as you are aware this has been reported to the tribunal by Jim Higgins,

Shur anyone could send stuff into the tribunal if they want,they'll throw it out if they deem it silly or inconsequential to their enquiries.

after the tribunal have finished with it, then CAB or whichever branch of the gardai will get involved if necessary.

This seems to be a text book case of wishfull thinking... You are convinced without a hearing or without any real evidence that something is going on and you've already decided that the Cab will be next on to it.
Tiz little wonder we're in the conspiracy theories forum with this one.

Can we move this back to politics tomorrow then,

No.

or will someone have to open a new thread on the new revelations tomorrow?

There are new revelations coming tomorrow? Have you the inside track on this ?
I await with interest.

Glenbhoy · 21-04-2007 08:48PM

Tristrame wrote:

No.There are new revelations coming tomorrow? Have you the inside track on this ?
I await with interest.

No, but, you'd have to admit that Frank Connolly who broke last weeks story has a very justifiable grudge against the present taoiseach (in fairness to the Sindo, they had promised the guys wife that they would sit on the story and would have, had they not been alerted to Connolly's interest), it's my belief that whatever dirt there may be on Bertie, he has it, and he's had it for a while but he's been biding his time, a dish best served cold etc. For that reason it would surprise me if 'The Irish Mail on Sunday' doesn't have more revelations tomorrow - in fairness, many of the stories the newspaper has broke over the past number of sundays have been total crap, but, they're obviously of the view that keep on flinging muck and a wee bit will stick. I suppose you've noticed just how vitriolic both the Sindo and The Mail on Sunday are to both FF and Bertie in particular? Anyway, I await tomorrow's paper with interest.
You know, your antics in shifting this to conspiracy theories smack of old school fianna failism, you know, the type who go round ripping down their opponents election posters etc, I thought you were better than that??

21-04-2007 08:56PM

Glenbhoy wrote:

You know, your antics in shifting this to conspiracy theories smack of old school fianna failism, you know, the type who go round ripping down their opponents election posters etc, I thought you were better than that??

LoL

Article:Ahern and Briefcase of Cash issue

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