Article:Ahern and Briefcase of Cash issue

Villain

Article from the Sunday Independent today:

THE Taoiseach and his former partner Celia Larkin have denied claims by a former Garda that Mr Ahern took a briefcase of cash to Manchester when he was the Finance Minister.

A Fine Gael politician has told the Planning tribunal of the extraordinary claims, made by a former garda who was Mr Ahern's driver in 1994.

Mr Ahern has described the claims as "baloney". They were passed on to the tribunal by Jim Higgins, a former minister, now a Fine Gael MEP.

Former Garda Martin Fallon first made the claim seven years ago, when he sought out and was interviewed in Leinster House by Mr Higgins and Enda Kenny, now the Fine Gael leader.

Garda Fallon repeated his claims to Mr Higgins, in a telephone conversation which was overheard in its entirety by the Sunday Independent in autumn 2000. But he now refuses to repeat his allegation, or to make further comment.

The Taoiseach is concerned that Fine Gael is contriving to make Garda Fallon's claims public in order to cause him maximum political damage in advance of the General Election. On Friday, Mr Ahern told the Sunday Independent that Fine Gael was engaged in "dirty tricks". He added that he had not been asked by the tribunal about Garda's Fallon's claims.

But Fine Gael is anxious that Mr Ahern should publicly respond to Garda Fallon's claims, as part of the ongoing controversy in relation to payments made to him by friends, associates and businessmen, in 1994, when he was Finance Minister.

Yesterday, Mr Higgins told the Sunday Independent: "I can confirm that in 2000 I was approached by a former member of An Garda Siochana, and as a result I met with a senior barrister representing the then Flood tribunal and gave a detailed interview outlining the information which the former garda gave me.

"Because of the fact that I may be a witness at the tribunal, I have been advised by my lawyer that I should not make any further public comment on the matter.

"However, I can confirm that the allegation made by the former garda were subsequently repeated by him on my Leinster House office telephone and was overheard by Sunday Independent journalist, Jody Corcoran, who was with me in my office at the time." According to Mr Higgins, in 2000 Garda Fallon approached himself and his then fellow Fine Gael TD for Mayo, Enda Kenny.

He said there was something on his mind, and that, because he had gotten to know both of them when he was a driver during the Rainbow Coalition's two years in power, he felt he could tell them about it.

According to Mr Higgins, the two Mayo TDs brought Garda Fallon to an interview room in Leinster House.

According to Mr Higgins, Garda Fallon had told him that in 1994 he had been asked to collect Mr Ahern's former

ANALYSIS:


partner, Celia Larkin, in Mr Ahern's Government car and to take her to a bank on O'Connell Street in Dublin. A short time later, Ms Larkin emerged with a briefcase.

Garda Fallon told Mr Higgins and Mr Kenny that he was asked to drop Ms Larkin to wherever she was going, but that as she got out of the car she said she would be leaving the briefcase in the car, and for Garda Fallon to take care of it until the morning.

Curiosity got the better of the driver and he opened the briefcase to find a large amount of cash inside.

He told the two Mayo TDs that he panicked slightly, because he did not want to be left with responsibility for the cash overnight.

So, according to Mr Higgins, Garda Fallon said he put the briefcase in the boot and brought the car to the Garda depot in the Phoenix Park, where it remained for the night.

According to Mr Higgins, the following morning he received a telephone call to collect Mr Ahern in Drumcondra and to take him to the airport.

Specifically, according to Mr Higgins, Garda Fallon said he was told to bring the briefcase with him. Mr Ahern is then said to have walked through the airport's VIP section, briefcase in hand, on his way to catch a flight to Manchester.

Garda Fallon repeated this allegation while on speaker phone to Mr Higgins, then a Fine Gael TD, while the Sunday Independent listened to the conversation. Mr Higgins did not tell Garda Fallon that the Sunday Independent was listening.

On Friday, while canvassing voters in Dublin Central, Mr Ahern strongly denied Mr Fallon's claims. He was aware of the allegation, but he said there was absolutely no truth in it. His former partner, Ms Larkin has also denied it.

Mr Ahern said he and Ms Larkin had "regularly" put money into, and taken it out of, "the bank". He also spoke, confusingly, of when Garda Fallon was his driver.

Eight weeks ago, Mr Higgins wrote to the Planning tribunal to seek a copy of a statement that he believed was taken from him by former tribunal lawyer John Gallagher seven years ago. He says he did not receive an acknowledgement.

Mr Higgins then had his solicitor write to the tribunal on Friday, March 16 last, and, again, on Tuesday last.

On Friday, the tribunal told Mr Higgins' solicitor that they did not receive his letter of March 16, but that they did receive his letter of last week.

According to Mr Higgins, his solicitor was told that while the tribunal team did take notes of their conversation in 2000, he had not given, nor had he been asked to give, a statement. His solicitor was told that should the tribunal require a statement from Mr Higgins they would be in touch. In 2000, after the Sunday Independent had overheard the conversation between Mr Higgins and Garda Fallon, we contacted Garda Fallon. AtHe said he had no comment to make.

Later that week Garda Fallon's wife contacted the Sunday Independent to ask us not to publish the story. She said her husband was unwell.

On Friday, Mr Fallon's son told the Sunday Independent that his father had no comment to make.

I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet as it was the lead stories in at least two papers this morning.

The fact that the conversation was overheard by an Indo journalist makes the story interesting, FG would want to be careful though as the last time Bertie had issues concerning money his Oscar winning interview on Six One won over the majority of voters. It will be interesting to see how this runs.

mike65

Sounds very messy. Pity Jody Corcoran did'nt have a tape machine running at the time.

Mike.

is_that_so

irish1 wrote:

Article from the Sunday Independent today:


I'm surprised this hasn't been mentioned yet as it was the lead stories in at least two papers this morning.

The fact that the conversation was overheard by an Indo journalist makes the story interesting, FG would want to be careful though as the last time Bertie had issues concerning money his Oscar winning interview on Six One won over the majority of voters. It will be interesting to see how this runs.

It is very much a case of looking at the messenger. There may be truth of some form in it but how much is anyone's guess. Best left to the tribunals tbh.

Villain

The tribunals don't seem to have been too interested to date about the issue.

LostinBlanch

There is a pattern here. The stench of sleaze is beginning to follow Bertie around.

In a normal democracry he would have been out on his ear after admitting to getting £50,000 in illegal donations while finance minister. Strangely enough, most of those that gave him cash have been given posts on certain boards like the Dublin Docklands Regeneration Board. But then that's because they were his friends and not because they gave him money.

Sickening, absolutely sickening that he actually became more popular as a result of being caught.

ballooba

I'm predicting a 3 to 5 point boost in the opinion polls for Bertie on the back of this. It's a sick little country we live in. Long live democracy.

John_C

LostinBlanch wrote:

admitting to getting £50,000 in illegal donations while finance minister
...
he actually became more popular as a result of being caught.

He became more popular because most of us have little time for people who make up dirt to sling. There was nothing illegal about the money Bertie got. You're entitled to disapprove of it but when you make OTT attacks like that you help Bertie.

InFront

John_C wrote:

He became more popular because most of us have little time for people who make up dirt to sling

Sorry, what was made up about the news coverage at the time?

John_C

InFront wrote:

Sorry, what was made up about the news coverage at the time?

Fair question, I think I phrased myself badly, the ficticional dirt above is being slung well after his bounce in the polls.

What I meant to say is closer to; 'He became more popular because most of us have little time for the guilty untill proven innocent attiude which surrounds him, a good example being the person above making up dirt to sling.'.

Glenbhoy

John_C wrote:

There was nothing illegal about the money Bertie got. You're entitled to disapprove of it but when you make OTT attacks like that you help Bertie.

Have good working knowledge of the tax system then do we John?? Instead of waiting around for whatever party win the election to take power, why don't you cut your own tax bill, here's how:
1. Tell your employer to remove you from PAYE (if applicable)
2. Tell your employer that you no longer want to be paid a wage.
3. Tell your employer that you will however need exactly the same amount of money as you used to get paid, except, that this will be classified as a long term loan (with no terms of repayment).
4. Tell your employer not to bother detailing this agreement in writing (it'll be a debt of honour, you tell him).
5. Off you go to enjoy your new found increased income.

BTW, why are the defenders of Mr. Ahern blaming Fine Gael for launching a smear campaign? From what I can see, it was Frank Connolly (not that he'd bear a grudge against the current incumbents, but would hardly be a blueshirt either) and Jody Corcoran's decision to go public just now, before the election, amazing, that journalists would try and time the release like this isn't it?

Jonny Arson

I can begin to hear the fat lady signing for Comrade Bertie now!

Well someone is lying anyway, either Ahern or Garda Fallon have lied through their teeth. Sure, if this is all lies against Bertie can sue Garda Fallon or the SINDO then.

Going by Ahern's denial, why would a highly regarded Garda randomly decide to make such a massive fabricated allegation?

Ahern has admitted using the bank he was dropped at by the garda on numerous occasions.... I thought back in 1994 he kept his notes in his biscuit tin?

Something has got to break soon. I can't see yet another Ahern scandal been swept under the carpet again. Someone is lying and whoever it is must be exposed. There is so much crap following Ahern now I can't see any chance that he'll be still Taoiseach by the end of the year even if his bunch of incompetent goons are returned to power. He's left so many conveniently unanswered questions left right and centre about the ''Bertiegate'' scandal was only going to ressurect itself. Serves him right.

Wouldn't it be something else if a tape recorder did surface!

Also Fianna Fail's allegation of a Fine Gael smear campaign is an absolute disgrace. Another fabulous instance of FF calling the kettle black. Anything Fianna Fail do it's the oppositions fault. :rolleyes: It was the Sunday Indo who published this story not Fine Gael and what the sheer f**k in hell does Jim Higgins doing his job got to do with a Fine Gael smear campaign? :rolleyes: Unless FF can come up with evidence themsleves that Fine Gael have launched a smear campaign they can get a nice of cup of shut the f**k up.

A couple of points to make here.

Firstly and most importantly I'm not going to tolerate any unsubstatiated allegations made in this thread other than comments or discussion of the article.

Now onto the substantive issue.

Ahern has a brief case full of cash at a time that he says he has no bank account.He's being paid well at the time so the cash would be building up.
It's a silly way to conduct your affairs but he has said this on record and theres nothing illegal about it.

A Guard illegally takes a look inside the brief case a decade ago when he wouldnt have known that Ahern doesnt hold a/cs and instead deals all in cash so he immediately smells a rat.

Fast foward to today, the now ex Guard doesnt want to make the issue now that he was making then about it possibly because at this stage he's well aware that theres no evidence whatsoever to mark the brief case full of money as dodgy.

Newspapers none too happy with how their manchestergate target managed with the help of the public to give them the two fingers as well as adequately explain himself to the public are now introducing this information.

Unless theres something more substantial and there isn't that I've seen, then we have the usual suspects here huffing and puffing in a see through smear and it more than likely will gain Bertie rather than lose Bertie votes as by and large peoples sense of fair play don't like this sort of thing.

If this was an episode of Lost I'd say Ben had this all planned in a cunning reverse psychology sort of way.

John_C

Tristrame wrote:

It's a silly way to conduct your affairs but he has said this on record and theres nothing illegal about it.

I'm not a tax expert but I think taking that much cash out foreign would have been illegal at the time (at least, I remember there being currency controls in place).

That said, if the basic story is correct it's one man's word against anothers and it's likely that nothing more can come out

Villain

A Minister for Finance not having bank accounts just seems too funny to be true tbh.

mike65

Bertie always was a 'cash in hand' sort of fella.

Mike.

gandalf

FFS I reckon FF leaked it because they saw the poll boost that Comrade Gazza Bertie got after the Manchester&Housegate Affair last year.

John_C

John_C wrote:

I'm not a tax expert but I think taking that much cash out foreign would have been illegal at the time (at least, I remember there being currency controls in place).

How much is "that much" though ? we don't know.
The guard that illegally had a look inside the folder or brief case or whatever is not on record as to saying how much.
In fact with hindsight he seems not to want to be on the record any more at all about it.
A few thousand in fivers and tenners might amount to a looking like a lot of wads in a briefcase and hardly illegal.
Ms Larkin may have been going into the bank to get sterling by the way if they were heading to manchester.

This is looking like it's back firing on whoever dreamed it up and I think it might be a good idea for FG to be letting shaky stories like this stand or fall on their own feet and let FG keep well away.

gandalf

gandalf wrote:

FFS I reckon FF leaked it because they saw the poll boost that Comrade Gazza Bertie got after the Manchester&Housegate Affair last year.

Thats what I was thinking when I made the comment re: Ben from lost above

John_C

Tristrame wrote:

How much is "that much" though ? we don't know.

True but I imagine the garda could tell the difference between enough money for a holliday and too much money for a holliday.

I'm working from memory so anyone should feel free to correct me but my understanding is that you were allowed to bring enough money to keep yourself for the trip (I don't know if there was an actual limit put on this) but if you were planning on bringing money for business it was under seperate rules.

A quick google tells me exchange controls were lifted under EU laws in 1992,thats 2 years before this "incident".

I'd have imagined that it would have been highlighted in the Sindo article if there was an illegality regarding that.

John_C

Tristrame wrote:

A quick google tells me exchange controls were lifted under EU laws in 1992,thats 2 years before this "incident".

I'd have imagined that it would have been highlighted in the Sindo article if there was an illegality regarding that.

Fair enough, you know (or at least can google) more than me about it.

Is the only complaint then that it's a bit funny keeping money in a briefcase? I suppose it depends on the amount but taking a lot of cash out foreign isn't that odd and was even less odd at the time. Also, their behaviour seems not at all suspicious, having a garda to drive you around and mind your stuf isn't what you'd do if you were up to trouble.

ninty9er

Did anyone hear knob yesterday's nob nation??? quite funny!!

Anyhow...far be it from me to accuse FG of smear campaigns, but when you're a party projecting a squeaky clean "family man" as your candidate for Taoiseach (Richard Bruton would have been a lot better) and it turns out that he/ Higgins sat a journo down in his office and put an unsuspecting "witness" on speakerphone smacks of hypocracy when accusing the Taoiseach of sleaze about 5 weeks before an election.

If these allegations are true or not, it has no bearing on whether the man has been a good Taoiseach, a good minister or done his job correctly. Haughey was a different story as he fleeced the party and the state out of millions in tax and luxury spending!!! (I'm with Lemass on Haughey), but until such time as it's proven that Bertie fleeced the state like Haughey, it's of no concern to the electorate!!

If it has an electoral impact, votes will go to Labour and not FG

And from todays indo...

Silly silly Fine Gael-can they do anything right?

The Irish Independent has learned that a senior Fine Gael figure personally contacted newspapers to tell them of claims being made by a garda driver against Mr Ahern.

The FG figure phoned a number of journalists at regular intervals over the past few weeks to discuss the story. One paper decided not to publish but said Fine Gael sources had offered the information.

The disclosure makes a mockery of claims by Fine Gael that it had nothing to do with the leaking of the story, which appears now to be backfiring on Enda Kenny's party.

Dirk Gently

Tristrame wrote:

Silly silly Fine Gael-can they do anything right?

Expect some more mud throwing coming up to the election. For this election FG have employed the same U.S. outfit used by the conservatives in america to dis-credit opponents through character assination and so on. I always cringe at american election campaigns, it's a sad tactic, but when there's no real differance between the opposition and the government I suppose all there is to do is make the others look really bad rather than promote yourself on your own merits.

TBH I think people are under no illusions about Bertie and FF being corrupt but they don't seem to see it as a major problem, as long as times are good. FG need to convince people times will be good with them at the helm and stop flogging a dead horse hoping the Irish public will out bertie because he's a bold boy. The more they go on about bertie, the more desperate they look in voters eyes. Time to debate issues and let blank cheque Bertie have his turn at the tribunals after he's left office.

Funny thing is,he mightn't leave office at all if he goes into a 5 year coalition with labour which is as likely as it is unlikely.

Dirk Gently

I expect bertie to be at the helm after the next G/E anyway (probably with even more seats if FG keep up their tactics), and yes, I imagine FF would prefere labour to anyone else. (just a question of will labour take the risk). He has said he will stand down at 60 though, and each time he's said it he looked like he meant it. I fully expect in 10 years time Bertie will be caught up in all kinds of revalations coming out of tribunals, but people will probably remember him more fondly than haughty, mostly because bertie was around during the boom and not the bust. I don't expect anything to happen though, until after he, and possibly FF have left power.

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

Now onto the substantive issue.

Ahern has a brief case full of cash at a time that he says he has no bank account.He's being paid well at the time so the cash would be building up.
It's a silly way to conduct your affairs but he has said this on record and theres nothing illegal about it.

Bertie has come out and flatly denied that there ever was a briefcase... So if it does turn out that the bank transaction did happen, then it will look very much like he's trying to cover something up.

A Guard illegally takes a look inside the brief case a decade ago when he wouldnt have known that Ahern doesnt hold a/cs and instead deals all in cash so he immediately smells a rat.

I'd smell a rat too if i found out that my boss, The minister of finance, didn't have a bank account and dealt only with cash.. (the only reason someone in his position would do that would be to avoid a paper trail...) Tristame, you can't honestly say that you don't think his 'unorthodox' personal financial system isn't highly suspicious?

Akrasia

Akrasia wrote:

Bertie has come out and flatly denied that there ever was a briefcase...

What did Bertie say exactly again?

So if it does turn out that the bank transaction did happen, then it will look very much like he's trying to cover something up.

Going into a bank to get maybe a draft or sterling or to cash a cheque is illegal?

I'd smell a rat too if i found out that my boss, The minister of finance, didn't have a bank account and dealt only with cash.. (the only reason someone in his position would do that would be to avoid a paper trail...)

It's quirky but it's not illegal.
You or anyone can be as suspicious as you like but if you have no evidence of a wrong do ing...then all your suspicions amount to is - accuse now because you dont like the man and hope the evidence comes later.
In which case I'll have to seriously doubt your own ethics to be honest.

What we have now wouldn't hold up in a court of law.
We could of course pass laws in the morning to make carrying wads of cash around (Ahern only did this frequently apparently by his own admission around the time of his separation) illegal or a security threat? Perhaps you'd like a patriot act passed?

Tristame, you can't honestly say that you don't think his 'unorthodox' personal financial system isn't highly suspicious?

I'll tell you what I find funny and suspicious to be honest-people with obvious anti Ahern agenda's grasping at straws so weak that they are not really graspable at all.
Come back to me when you have something concrete.

Glenbhoy

Tristrame wrote:

The guard that illegally had a look inside the folder or brief case

Why do you keep on highlighting this? How can you state that his actions were illegal?? He was left in charge of the briefcase overnight, surely in order to adequately carry out this function it was necessary to know what level of security should be applied?

Akrasia

Tristrame wrote:

What did Bertie say exactly again?

"baloney" That counts as a flat denial to me. (Although he might just have been hungry)

Going into a bank to get maybe a draft or sterling or to cash a cheque is illegal?
It's quirky but it's not illegal.

I never said it was illegal in itself, But instead of the word 'quirky' I would use the word 'Suspicious'.

You or anyone can be as suspicious as you like but if you have no evidence of a wrong do ing...then all your suspicions amount to is - accuse now because you dont like the man and hope the evidence comes later.
In which case I'll have to seriously doubt your own ethics to be honest.

The Taoiseach is a public representative. He is supposed to be accountable and above board.When this allegation fits into a larger pattern of other suspicious behaviour, then it is perfectly reasonable to demand answers. Why did he not have a bank account. How did he get paid, how did he a get bank loan without a bank account? Why was every possible effort made to push the Quarryvale portion of the planning tribunal back till after the election (through long drawn out and extremely costly appeals processes that were clearly only intended to waste time)

What we have now wouldn't hold up in a court of law.

Corruption is an extremely difficult charge to prove, especially when the official investigating body is being frustrated at every turn by FF politicians and their cornies

We could of course pass laws in the morning to make carrying wads of cash around (Ahern only did this frequently apparently by his own admission around the time of his separation) illegal or a security threat? Perhaps you'd like a patriot act passed?

Nope, I'd like the Taoiseach to answer the questions relating to his own finances at that time. Why didn't he have a bank account, how did he get paid his salary, how did he get a mortgage without a bank account. If this story is true, why did he bring a large suitcase full of cash to Manchester (and then deny it when asked), and if it's not true, why doesn't he sue the Sunday Independent or the Garda for Libel.

I'll tell you what I find funny and suspicious to be honest-people with obvious anti Ahern agenda's grasping at straws so weak that they are not really graspable at all.
Come back to me when you have something concrete.

There are plenty of straws there. He has admitted appointing 'his friends' to state boards for no reason other than they were his friends (this was the alternative to him admitting to appointing these same people to state boards because they "loaned" him large sums of cash with no arrangements to ever have those "loans" repayed.)

Glenbhoy

Glenbhoy wrote:

Why do you keep on highlighting this? How can you state that his actions were illegal?? He was left in charge of the briefcase overnight, surely in order to adequately carry out this function it was necessary to know what level of security should be applied?

LoL

Akrasia wrote:

"baloney" That counts as a flat denial to me. (Although he might just have been hungry)

you are being facetious now.
Your last post suggested that he denied even the existance of a brief case.
You seem to be doing what I called you on ie, you'd like the idea that something untoward happened so you'll say you think it did but not show the beef.
Now thats not cricket.

I never said it was illegal in itself, But instead of the word 'quirky' I would use the word 'Suspicious'.

The Taoiseach is a public representative. He is supposed to be accountable and above board.When this allegation fits into a larger pattern of other suspicious behaviour, then it is perfectly reasonable to demand answers. Why did he not have a bank account. How did he get paid, how did he a get bank loan without a bank account?

If it's not illegal I thought any citizen can do whatever they like with their own after tax salary including burn it (though back yard burning is illegal so it would be best to do that in the fireplace/stove)

Why was every possible effort made to push the Quarryvale portion of the planning tribunal back till after the election (through long drawn out and extremely costly appeals processes that were clearly only intended to waste time)
Corruption is an extremely difficult charge to prove, especially when the official investigating body is being frustrated at every turn by FF politicians and their cornies

It's also a very easy thing to accuse one of.
It also appears to be even easier when it suits to dump the notion of innocent untill proven guilty-a right everyone is entitled to by the way.

Nope, I'd like the Taoiseach to answer the questions relating to his own finances at that time. Why didn't he have a bank account, how did he get paid his salary, how did he get a mortgage without a bank account.

I cannot answer that except to say that as far I am aware his lack of a bank account was pre getting a mortgage for his existiung house and I understand his lack of bank account status also only arose after his separation.
Thats his personal business if he is not breaking the law.

If this story is true, why did he bring a large suitcase full of cash to Manchester (and then deny it when asked), and if it's not true, why doesn't he sue the Sunday Independent or the Garda for Libel.

Oh it's asuitcase no...
Do go on.
Will it be a container truck load in your next post?

There are plenty of straws there. He has admitted appointing 'his friends' to state boards for no reason other than they were his friends (this was the alternative to him admitting to appointing these same people to state boards because they "loaned" him large sums of cash with no arrangements to ever have those "loans" repayed.)

All in the public domain I'm afraid.
If you can't get over the fact that he accounted for this,then thats your problem.
It doesn't appear to be the publics probably because they know down right well that jobs for the boys is endemic not only in political parties of all hues,it's endemic in society ie the not what you know but who you know.
Ask any HR department.

John_C

Akrasia wrote:

Corruption is an extremely difficult charge to prove, especially when the official investigating body is being frustrated at every turn by FF politicians and their cornies

The absence of any evidance doesn't help to prove the charge either.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

A Guard illegally takes a look inside the brief case a decade ago

You have twice stated that the guard acted illegally

Can you please explain exactly what law the guard broke in looking inside a briefcase given to him for safe keeping by a ministers Girlfriend.

It is ironic that you state that there should be no unsubstantiated allegations in this thread and then proceed to make an allegation of illegal behaviour on the part of a former garda.


It may have been wrong or a breach of trust but I would love to know what law he broke.

Voipjunkie

For my money I would have to say that it is interesting in that the allegation relates to the same time period as the "loans and Gifts" that bertie received and that the Garda would not have known about these events when he made his statement.

Also the obvious question is why would a garda make up such as story it is not like he has tried to profit from the story and it appears that he has nothing to gain.


As far as I can see there are only 3 possible explanations the Garda is lying bertie is lying or the money belonged to Ms Larkin and had nothing to do with bertie in which case bertie and the garda could be telling the truth.

Dalfiatach

Voipjunkie wrote:

As far as I can see there are only 3 possible explanations the Garda is lying bertie is lying or the money belonged to Ms Larkin and had nothing to do with bertie in which case bertie and the garda could be telling the truth.

Except the Garda sez the next day he drove Bertie to the airport, and Bertie took the briefcase onto the plane. Celia left it in the car in the first place, but Bertie took it to the airport.

Allegedly, of course.

As for anyone who thinks Ahern's finances of the period are somhow just an amusing quirk - come off it. The Minister of Finance of a European country has been a TD for 15 years, has a mortgage and has just gone through a costly legal seperation, yet throughout all of this he gets his salary cheques cashed in Fagan's and carries the money about in a briefcase?

Me arse.

Why hasn't anyone done a FOI request to find out exactly how Bertie was being paid - salary and expenses - during this period? Who cashed the salary cheques, where and when? How did Bertie pay his outgoings? Did he pay all his phone bills, lecky bills, election expenses, full and part-time constituency workers, food - was all that paid for in cash out of the briefcase? Prrrrrf. I don't believe that for a second. And nobody with a functioning brain would. The only question is whether you decide to turn a blind eye to it, or decide to ask questions and point out the obvious flaws.

Dalfiatach

Dalfiatach wrote:

Except the Garda sez the next day he drove Bertie to the airport, and Bertie took the briefcase onto the plane. Celia left it in the car in the first place, but Bertie took it to the airport.

Allegedly, of course.

As for anyone who thinks Ahern's finances of the period are somhow just an amusing quirk - come off it. The Minister of Finance of a European country has been a TD for 15 years, has a mortgage and has just gone through a costly legal seperation, yet throughout all of this he gets his salary cheques cashed in Fagan's and carries the money about in a briefcase?

Me arse.

You are forgetting , this is Ireland.

Why hasn't anyone done a FOI request to find out exactly how Bertie was being paid - salary and expenses - during this period? Who cashed the salary cheques, where and when? How did Bertie pay his outgoings? Did he pay all his phone bills, lecky bills, election expenses, full and part-time constituency workers, food - was all that paid for in cash out of the briefcase?

Thats what mahon is for and he's fairly thorough.

Prrrrrf. I don't believe that for a second. And nobody with a functioning brain would. The only question is whether you decide to turn a blind eye to it, or decide to ask questions and point out the obvious flaws.

The only question is what kind of unsubstantiated speculation can be posted next it seems.
Other than that it's simple enough.One can't stand the guy or one can.

It may have been wrong or a breach of trust but I would love to know what law he broke.

Did he have a search warrant ? Should he have done so? No.
What if there were cabinet papers in there? Whats to stop him having a good read.Should he have a good read? No.

Don't get me wrong,I would have mentioned that I think it was illegal a third time if I thought it was say a bigger issue than dropping litter in the street or taking some of the money.
I only mentioned it one more time than once.

Red Alert

It sickens me how he got away with the whip-round and how is now getting away with this cash-stuffed briefcase. Enda Kenny's biggest failing in my opinion was not nailing him on the initial whip-round job. What is worse though, is that we're so immature in Ireland just because divorce was brought into it - plenty of people get divorced and do all their finances properly and are earning money at the time etc. However, it seemed that you couldn't criticise him because he was involved in divorce proceedings?

In Britain he'd have been long gone - we're a lot better than our neighbours in many ways, but we're just too sleazy and thick to eject unsuitable people from office. If Bertie had behaved that way in a private organization and promoted people to top jobs for under the counter cash he'd have been fired.

Red Alert

Red Alert wrote:

If Bertie had behaved that way in a private organization and promoted people to top jobs for under the counter cash he'd have been fired.

I don't think its that we are too sleasy,I think it's because we are in a begorrah and begob society that back slaps that type of thing.
Shur mary , jack and joe wouldnt have got their Shivil Shervish job or trip up the ladder without it.
I do agree though that if this happened in Britain that Ahern would be gone-not because he took money to put people on boards but because of the implication that that might have been the case.

Voipjunkie

Tristrame wrote:

Did he have a search warrant ? Should he have done so? No.
What if there were cabinet papers in there? Whats to stop him having a good read.Should he have a good read? No.



Don't get me wrong,I would have mentioned that I think it was illegal a third time if I thought it was say a bigger issue than dropping litter in the street or taking some of the money.
I only mentioned it one more time than once.

Why would he need a search warrant the owner of the brief case had left it in his possession he was not investigating any crime or gathering evidence of a possible crime. It could be argued that he had an obligation to look in it if he was going to be bringing it on a plane the next day.
Also he may have been concerned with how secure he should make the briefcase if it was berties tootbrush and a clean pair of underpants then it would be safe enough leaving them in the car or in his house. If it was important ministerial papers or a large amount of cash then it would need to be more secure. In fact the garda brought it to a garda station for safe keeping when he had ascertained the value of the contents.
To state that the garda acted illegally is IMO an attempt to discredit the Garda especially when you cannot say what particular law you believe the Garda broke nor do you know why the garda looked in the briefcase.


Should the garda read important ministerial papers obviously not nor should a minister or his partner give a garda important ministerial papers to mind till tomorrow.

Voipjunkie

Voipjunkie wrote:

It could be argued that he had an obligation to look in it if he was going to be bringing it on a plane the next day.

Lol was the guard going to manchester too? because thats the only reason that he'd have to look in that brief case for a flight.

Why would he need a search warrant the owner of the brief case had left it in his possession he was not investigating any crime or gathering evidence of a possible crime.

He didn't leave it there with a post it "open me please".

Also he may have been concerned with how secure he should make the briefcase if it was berties tootbrush and a clean pair of underpants then it would be safe enough leaving them in the car or in his house.

Now for heavens sake,he could ask those kind of things.

If it was important ministerial papers or a large amount of cash then it would need to be more secure. In fact the garda brought it to a garda station for safe keeping when he had ascertained the value of the contents.
To state that the garda acted illegally is IMO an attempt to discredit the Garda especially when you cannot say what particular law you believe the Garda broke nor do you know why the garda looked in the briefcase.

It would be if I was harping on about it maybe-how many times did i mention that versus the number of replies I made on this thread.
I mentioned it twice, thats one more time than once .

Should the garda read important ministerial papers obviously not nor should a minister or his partner give a garda important ministerial papers to mind till tomorrow.

Why not are Guards not trustworthy?

Villain

I don't think the Garda should be accused of anything, if you are given something to keep in your pocession you surely would ensure the package doesn't contain anything illegal, e.g. Tristrame say I call down to your house and give you a briefcase and ask you to keep it overnight and it contains a kilo of drugs that are illegal would you be breaking any law by checking the contents?

Ah this is getting silly.

Villain

Maybe it is but I think the Garda had every right to look inside the briefcase, do you not agree?

I don't actually agree at all.
This Guard was on a detail with the minister of Finance.
The brief case would have been private.

And as it turns out the Guard in question in the context of today is staying quiet about the briefcase now probably because it wasnt illegal,there was no wrong doing proved shown or otherwise.
All the fuss (now died down and indeed short lived) was coming from people that apparantly if a scandal was the equivalent of a píss up couldnt organise one in a brewery.

Now have we anything new to add on this?

Villain

Whether he is on detail or not he should still always check he wasn't in pocession of any illegal packages. Its only a small detail now but I wouldn't go accusing him of anything illegal imo he had every right to check the contents in fact I would say he was obliged to do so.

The Garda in question probably knows that nothing can be proven now and doesn't want to get caught in FF - FG crossfire.

I still think the biggest thing from this affair and the last one is the fact that a Minister of Finance didn't have a bank account, why would he want to deal in cash only? Seems odd very odd imo.

Oh I said it was quirky alright but not unusual-though probably unusual for a finance minister.
It's hardly a sackable offence though is it ?

Now I was asking anything new here? Anything concrete worth discussing other than people presenting their dislike of Ahern in various different ways or in different combinations of sentences.
That gets boring after a while.

Villain

Oh its not a sackable by any means but it might give an insight into the type of person he is but its up to people to make their own minds up, I personally would never vote for the man or for his party while he is leader but thats just imo.

Anyhow,given that most of this thread is theory,It's got a new home now.

Villain

Moved to Conspiracy theories??? Thats seems a bit odd its still a political issue I would have thought?

Voipjunkie

irish1 wrote:

Moved to Conspiracy theories??? Thats seems a bit odd its still a political issue I would have thought?

Typical abuse of power IMO

Certain people are uncomfortable with the subject so try and make it into a tinfoil hat subject to discredit the story.

LoL but this thread is full of tinfoil hat stuff.It's basic modding to move it to here.

All I've seen in this thread (mostly) is speculation with the flimsiest of grounds bordering on no grounds at all.
Basically ye don't like the man so anything will do.

Why not stick to criticising him on the politics board for his record on politics and leave the speculation as to why he dealt in cash for a period to the tin foil hats untill ye have something solid.

And who would these people uncomfortable with the subject be ?
As for discrediting the story? What story?I already linked to an article in yesterdays Indo (the same paper) saying that their story was being pimped by a fine gael hack all along.

As I said,a píss up in a brewery comes to mind.

As for my politics coming into it,thats laughable,shur I'm a labour supporter, thats on record... so really perhaps I should be stickying all threads dealing with them and deleting negative posts...

yeah you've nailed me alright.
Hands up I've been arrested.