glass in a bar fight

the_syco · 15-04-2007 05:16PM

ronoc wrote:

If you can't fight properly, take your beating like a ****ing man.

Don't go pull glasses on people unless you are prepared to get one in the face next time.

What f**king bull. The guy the OP was talking about was in a corner, drinking his drink, and some scumbag started on him. The first thing you do in a fight, is hit the guy who's hitting you.

Tough sh|t for them if you're holding a glass, though.

patrickolee · 15-04-2007 05:45PM

johnnyskeleton wrote:

1) was the glass in the person's hand when assaulted, or did they pick it up and lunge towards the other person?

It was in his hand, his own drink.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

2) did they use it in a defensive way or in a retaliatory way - i.e. did he try to minimise any injury caused or did he deliberately slash the other person's face - here, I think using the glass after it smashed would be unreasonable.

He tried to hit him over the head, but he the other guy had injurys to his eye, but nothing permanent, so he didn't succeed.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

3) if he was drunk at the time, which is very common in bar fights, would he have used the glass if he were sober?

He'd had a couple... wouldn't say he was drunk though.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

4) if the person who used the glass hadn't offered any resistance, how much of a beating would he have taken? Would he have been beaten to within an inch of his life, would he have been seriously injured, or would he have been a bit sore and bruised?

Very hard to say. I'd say he thought he was going to beaten up as the guy had been shouting at him aggressively and racially before he hit him, but whether that would have beaten to an inch of his life had my friend not retaliated, it's impossible to say.

johnnyskeleton wrote:

5) did the person with the glass do anything else earlier in the evening?

Whole thing started, a few second before the altercation. My friend knocked over some glasses on the table when he was lifting his drink, we've all done it :-). The other guy came over and started shouting, calling him a chinese ****er, go back to your own country type thing... my friend told him to **** off, then he went ballistic and hit him, then my friend hit him back with the glass.

Thanks for all the replies so far, either way, interesting to see that it's not purely black and white for everyone, although it does seem to be for many. I reckon he should defintely not take the 50/50 chance on a jury, just plead guilty and take a suspended and pay some money. Agree with the poster earlier who said its not worth the risk of "ten months gettin rode up the ass in Mountjoy by junkies".

In my heart I know he must have petrified to hit someone at all, and so justified in the eyes of the law, but that's because I know him. The jury wouldn't.

nesf · 15-04-2007 05:55PM

patrickolee wrote:

Whole thing started, a few second before the altercation. My friend knocked over some glasses on the table when he was lifting his drink, we've all done it :-). The other guy came over and started shouting, calling him a chinese ****er, go back to your own country type thing... my friend told him to **** off, then he went ballistic and hit him, then my friend hit him back with the glass.

Your friend probably doesn't have a leg to stand on legally tbh. That he glassed someone (even as a reaction) for being punched isn't defensible unless the other guy was gesturing with a knife or threatening to kill him or something and he was lucky your man didn't lose an eye or suffer bad scarring to the face. Then it'd be a lot more than five grand that he owed. He is guilty of assault, I don't see the problem for him here, he should just plea and be done with it.

patrickolee · 15-04-2007 06:13PM

Problem is he can't just plea to it as it happened. The other fella is saying that he started throwing glasses onto the dance floor, then when he approached my friend, my friend threw more glasses in his direction, one of which hit him. He says he did nothing to provoke it. Makes my friend out to be a right nutter, and if he pleads guilty, hes saying that's true.

The other guy actually did the right thing to lie completely and say he did nothing. If my friend had known this and just said he did nothing, it would be one person's word against the other. Scumbags know how the system works. Luckily there's a few points which don't stack up in the other guys story, like the injurys which my friend had and the garda (and I) saw.... and a few other bits and pieces. Probably shouldn't go into too much detail on the holes in his story, suffice to say it's a little improbable.

nesf · 15-04-2007 06:43PM

patrickolee wrote:

Problem is he can't just plea to it as it happened. The other fella is saying that he started throwing glasses onto the dance floor, then when he approached my friend, my friend threw more glasses in his direction, one of which hit him. He says he did nothing to provoke it. Makes my friend out to be a right nutter, and if he pleads guilty, hes saying that's true.

The other guy actually did the right thing to lie completely and say he did nothing. If my friend had known this and just said he did nothing, it would be one person's word against the other. Scumbags know how the system works. Luckily there's a few points which don't stack up in the other guys story, like the injurys which my friend had and the garda (and I) saw.... and a few other bits and pieces. Probably shouldn't go into too much detail on the holes in his story, suffice to say it's a little improbable.

Can't he just stand by his story and admit to glassing him but insist that he was hit first?

Karoma · 15-04-2007 06:58PM

patrickolee wrote:

PProbably shouldn't go into too much detail on the holes in his story, suffice to say it's a little improbable.

My advice remains: get witnessessesssss. Definitely do not go into any detail here. He should tell the truth - from a moral standpoint... but really, because it's difficult to maintain a lie when questioned by Gardaí and numerous solicitors.

Dragan · 15-04-2007 07:01PM

patrickolee wrote:

Problem is he can't just plea to it as it happened. The other fella is saying that he started throwing glasses onto the dance floor, then when he approached my friend, my friend threw more glasses in his direction, one of which hit him. He says he did nothing to provoke it. Makes my friend out to be a right nutter, and if he pleads guilty, hes saying that's true.

The other guy actually did the right thing to lie completely and say he did nothing. If my friend had known this and just said he did nothing, it would be one person's word against the other. Scumbags know how the system works. Luckily there's a few points which don't stack up in the other guys story, like the injurys which my friend had and the garda (and I) saw.... and a few other bits and pieces. Probably shouldn't go into too much detail on the holes in his story, suffice to say it's a little improbable.

Right so, throwing glasses onto a dancefloor would be noticed by about everyone in the area, so can he produce anyone who saw this?

Believe me, its ridiculous hard to throw a glass in a club and not be seen, almost impossible to throw multiple glasses.

As such the guy should be able to produce witnesses if your friend challenges his story. Otherwise this is simple trolling, as everytime someone offers you decent advice to pass on to your friend there is some reason it would not work.

patrickolee · 15-04-2007 07:26PM

"Right so, throwing glasses onto a dancefloor would be noticed by about everyone in the area, so can he produce anyone who saw this?"
No he can't. Also my friend put an ad in the paper that the club was advertised in to try and get witnesses, but nobody came forward. It was a year after the night in question though, so...

"Believe me, its ridiculous hard to throw a glass in a club and not be seen, almost impossible to throw multiple glasses."
I agree... thats another reason why his story is inprobable.

"As such the guy should be able to produce witnesses if your friend challenges his story. "
He can't but it's one persons word against anothers. Except my friend has admitted he's used a glass and so has to defend himself that the force he used was in line with the perceived threat, regardless of whether the gaurds know the other guy was lying or not. So he could be convicted on his on statement in other words.

"Otherwise this is simple trolling, as everytime someone offers you decent advice to pass on to your friend there is some reason it would not work."
Trust me, I'm not trolling, just been through all the angles for 2.5 years. At my wits end thinking he could go to jail because he told the truth while someone else is willing and able to lie to the gaurds and presumably under oath.

Karoma is probably right, I shouldn't go into too much detail here. Guess the purpose for the post was to see the 'moral' viewpoints of people rather the legal, which he's had from the solicitors/barrister. I've got that, which is mostly 'you shouldn't use a glass no matter what' and a few 'not unless you're really in major danger' (which is the laws view) and maybe one or two 'somebody who's bigger and hits someone, deserves what they get'.

I am very grateful for everyone's reponses and assure you I'm not trolling.

Dragan · 16-04-2007 09:28AM

"His word against mine" rarely gets a huge amount of attention by any judge. Not unless the side claiming to be the victim can pull some witnesses out, or at least some kind of evidence that there story is true.

In this case if I were the judge I would want to see witnesses, secrutiy camera video's of your friend throwing the glass, the original police and club reports from the arrest to ensure the guys story is still the same and arrest history of both and character witnesses.

In a case like that your unlikely to get any of the above except the 3 and 2nd to last, so if you mate has no priors then that instantly a step up for him.

Did your mate take any photo's of the damage that was done to him during the initial assault?

Jumpy · 16-04-2007 09:42AM

dodgyme wrote:

Everyone knows what a fair fight is. Two lads or wimmin around the same size and same number of pints (usually drinking with each other) kicking the crap outta each other til they get arrested and have the craic on the way to the cells. A fair fight is not one lad fightin some buck who has been doing marshall arts for 15 years, or picking up glasses of knives.

Ladies and Gentlemen. A stereotype!

patrickolee · 16-04-2007 10:25AM

Dragan wrote:

Did your mate take any photo's of the damage that was done to him during the initial assault?

Unfortunately not. I thought of it at the time, but then I didn't. I should have, but he was in such a state I didn't want to make it worse.

Dragan · 16-04-2007 10:41AM

patrickolee wrote:

Unfortunately not. I thought of it at the time, but then I didn't. I should have, but he was in such a state I didn't want to make it worse.

That’s a shame! Was he treated at all by the staff in the club, or would there be a Gardai who may remember the damage to his face?

patrickolee · 16-04-2007 10:51AM

Dragan wrote:

That’s a shame! Was he treated at all by the staff in the club, or would there be a Gardai who may remember the damage to his face?

Yep, luckily the Garda mentioned it in his report of the night.

Jack Vegas · 20-05-2007 12:59AM

de5p0i1er wrote:

If you want to fight someone then use your fists, if you can't win like that then you don't deserve to win. If someone pulls out a weapon then its open season on them.

And if you dont want to fight someone? Some randomer who you know you have no chance in hell of defending yourself against with plain fists decides to victimise you and you should simply take the beating and hope for the best?

nlgbbbblth · 20-05-2007 01:19AM

At a disco in New Ross in the early 1990s this irritating pr*ck went up to a guy who was sitting by himself and said 'You know it takes 20 muscles to smile and 40 muscles to frown' (not sure of the extra muscle count). The dude looked at him, smashed his pint glass off the edge of the table and stuck it in the other guy's face. He still has the scars today.

The same guy had jeered me the previous week for still buying vinyl in preference to CD [he called me 'old fashioned'] so I wasn't sorry to see him get glassed.

I wonder, with the scars and all, which is easier for him - smiling or frowning?

Dave! · 20-05-2007 05:05AM

nlgbbbblth wrote:

At a disco in New Ross in the early 1990s this irritating pr*ck went up to a guy who was sitting by himself and said 'You know it takes 20 muscles to smile and 40 muscles to frown' (not sure of the extra muscle count). The dude looked at him, smashed his pint glass off the edge of the table and stuck it in the other guy's face. He still has the scars today.

The same guy had jeered me the previous week for still buying vinyl in preference to CD [he called me 'old fashioned'] so I wasn't sorry to see him get glassed.

I wonder, with the scars and all, which is easier for him - smiling or frowning?

God you're a great lad :rolleyes: I'd say you're a real laugh to be out with

nlgbbbblth · 20-05-2007 01:13PM

DaveMcG wrote:

God you're a great lad :rolleyes: I'd say you're a real laugh to be out with

And your comment is based on what exactly?
My recounting of an incident I witnessed between two individuals?

Hardly the basis to form a character judgment of somebody.

Nala · 20-05-2007 01:28PM

nlgbbbblth wrote:

At a disco in New Ross in the early 1990s this irritating pr*ck went up to a guy who was sitting by himself and said 'You know it takes 20 muscles to smile and 40 muscles to frown' (not sure of the extra muscle count). The dude looked at him, smashed his pint glass off the edge of the table and stuck it in the other guy's face. He still has the scars today.

Yeah someone said that to me once and I just ignored them? And I was sitting at a table with at least 10 empty glasses at my disposal.

What's crap about getting started on is if there's more of them than you you might not be believed. I was at a gig and got started on by 3 or 4 girls for no reason, I started shoving them back, of course as soon as the bouncer came over they all said I'd started it and I got thrown out.

patrickolee · 20-05-2007 09:48PM

Thanks for all your replies, I thought this thread had gone.

Turned out my friend got found not guilty. Took the jury 10 mins to find unanimously! (which by the way is really really fast, barrister said it would be at least an hour at best before they would come back). The other guy was huge, bigger than all of the gaurds, even took me surprise. A real piece of work, scar on a different part of his face, (from another fight probably) especially standing beside my very quiet and petrified 5ft 4 friend! oh and he had previous conviction for larceny.

His lies were torn apart by the barrister, turns out you were right Dragon. One of the things that swung it was that nobody else saw my friend fire three voleys of glasses onto a crowded dance floor! Apparently he had come up with the big story, so that he could sue the bar, he had a civil case pending against them. That was his real purpose, my friend was incidental. He used to be a bouncer himself, so he knew how the system worked. He nearly got away with it too, my friend was going to plead guilty just to avoid the risk of going to jail! When the not guilty verdict came out he went nuts, started shouting etc. Quite like the films, the gaurds had to usher him away. Anyway, thanks to everyone for replying. Alls well that ends well... hopefully I can convince my friend to start going out again now!

Daknight · 20-05-2007 11:39PM

Congratulations to your friend!!!

Jesus Wept · 21-05-2007 12:16AM

thank fúck for that.

Wompa1 · 21-05-2007 12:53AM

Ha Ha Great to see the Galway night life is still alive and kicking!, I was out Paddys night, myself and my manager stood outside supermacs for an hour just watching people fighting, twas mighty craic!

Jesus Wept · 21-05-2007 01:55AM

Wompa1 wrote:

Ha Ha Great to see the Galway night life is still alive and kicking!, I was out Paddys night, myself and my manager stood outside supermacs for an hour just watching people fighting, twas mighty craic!

If that's what gets you off.

latenia · 21-05-2007 02:23AM

"The first rule of Supermacs is 'don't talk about Supermacs'"

Jumpy · 21-05-2007 09:11AM

#Elites wrote:

hogwash.

The first rule of Supermacs, is never eat at Supermacs.

I salute you for the best laugh of the morning.

Duggy747 · 21-05-2007 09:58AM

On Sat evening down at my local this ol' drunk twat swung at the owner (good friend of ours, besides being the bringer of drink

). The two wrestled, bumped into me which the twat's pint smashed on my arm and leg and the two fell to the ground. Everyone gathered around and beat the guy to a pulp to get him to let go of the owner. Next thing one of the younger fella's we know picked up a bar chair (The big heavy wooden type) and threw it at him. Now, stay with me on this one, the guy was still on the ground with 8 people surrounding him in a circle. Somehow, by strange laws of physics and gravity the heavy chair cracked me on the head instead and left me with a massive bump and a ringing head. Still I was grand an hour later.......thick head on me, though I did notice some pink goo coming out of my head.

patrickolee · 21-05-2007 10:55AM

Hope the young fella doesn't get done for it. If he does, get him to talk to a solicitor before making any statement to the gardai. Doesn't matter if he's in the right, a two and half year wait for a court case which he probably should win, is still very traumatic. If the 'twat' can prove he had some harm done to him (medical records etc) he will probably sue the pub for compo, you'll end up as a witness for the prosecution and your head will be wrecked with guilt when you see the yong fella, who you know is innocent, with a possible jail sentence hanging over his head!

It sounds terribly familiar albeit slightly different because at least you'll have witnesses.

BTW, if he is suing, you probably won't hear about it for a while, so keep any medical records you have, take pictures of any injuries you have, especially your arm and get the pub owner to keep cctv records (although I'm sure he knows that anyway)

Duggy747 · 21-05-2007 11:35AM

patrickolee wrote:

If the 'twat' can prove he had some harm done to him (medical records etc) he will probably sue the pub for compo

The guy was stealing pints (including mine) and is a right fool. He had the cheek to return an hour later but we politely told him to get out. The chair never got to it's destination, thanks to my head. Still, throwing the chair was a stupid thing to do regardless.

Duggy747 · 21-05-2007 11:36AM

err.......somehow I double posted with one click, oops.

8k2q1gfcz9s5d4 · 21-05-2007 11:54AM

Duggy747 wrote:

On Sat evening down at my local this ol' drunk twat swung at the owner (good friend of ours, besides being the bringer of drink ). The two wrestled, bumped into me which the twat's pint smashed on my arm and leg and the two fell to the ground. Everyone gathered around and beat the guy to a pulp to get him to let go of the owner. Next thing one of the younger fella's we know picked up a bar chair (The big heavy wooden type) and threw it at him. Now, stay with me on this one, the guy was still on the ground with 8 people surrounding him in a circle. Somehow, by strange laws of physics and gravity the heavy chair cracked me on the head instead and left me with a massive bump and a ringing head. Still I was grand an hour later.......thick head on me, though I did notice some pink goo coming out of my head.

lol, duggy747, it could only happen to you!!!! (who ever you are........!!)

glass in a bar fight

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