equal rights, equal pay - not fair?

Villaricos · 08-03-2007 06:11PM

Interesting debate, things are getting very gender orientated round here today!
well I agree that the whole women earn 14% less statistic can be explained very well for reasons such as women working less hours, missing promotions because of pregnancy and maternity leave. And I would also definitly agree that gung ho feminists are very annoying altogether. I had to do a gender course in college last year and i was so pissed off by the end of reading this rubbish. Men and women are not the same. we do not fill the same functions, were are not built the same, end of story. there cant be perfect equality because we arent equal!
And Im female btw.
But I did use to work in a kitchen and the guys usually did any of the lifting becuase they were stronger and it was accepted by us all. but you know when we had to do it we did it and we would never treat a delivery guy the way the OP was treated. It was an all hands on deck affair. We made up for not bring out the rubbish etc in picking up the slack in other ways

b3t4 · 08-03-2007 07:24PM

red-ice,

Do you know for certain that she is getting paid the same as you?

If she is getting exactly what you're getting and she isn't doing or isn't able to do her share of the job assigned to her then I do feel you have a case to go on.

Rather than suggest a cut in pay for the females suggest a rise in pay for the males. (this will be hard to swing alright) That way you can get the women somewhat on your side as well.

A.

thelordofcheese · 08-03-2007 07:26PM

slipss wrote:

lol I heard that aswell today, that women in Ireland get paid 14 or 16% less than men. I heard it on womens day last year aswell. There was some feminist on a radio station (i think 103.8FM) and she was giving out about the report that had come out stating that women are paid 14% less than men, I can't remember what it went like exactly but it was something along the lines of:

Feminist:.......and it is a total disgrace that in this day and age women are still getting paid 14% less than men. This report shows how seriously lacking this country still is, as far as discrimination against women in the work place goes.

Radio DJ: Well I don't think thats really fair, did you real the whole report?

Feminist: Yes of course I read it all.

Radio DJ: Well I have the report up on the computer infront of me here, and in the paragraph imediately after the one in which it states women earn 14% less than men, it goes on to say that on average men work 10% to 20% more hours than women per year. So does that not seem to suggest that things are perfectly fair?

Feminist: Ehm well I'm not sure I recal reading that part of the report, but ehm well...

Radio DJ: OK well I'm afraid, we're out of time, we'll have to leave it there, thanks very much for speaking to us here today. Next the News and weather.

as they say on the internets, Pwned.

I dunno what things are like now, as i've been in IT for the last few years, but way back in the day i used to work in a pennys, and out of the entire staff there were about 5 or so guys. Hence ontop of my regular duties, i also spent a large amount of time lifting things, and preforming dangerous balancing acts to get stuff down from ontop of very tall storage bins. At the time it seemed fairly reasonable to me, equality for all untill some heavy lifting had to be done

Blowfish · 08-03-2007 07:31PM

b3t4 wrote:

red-ice,

Do you know for certain that she is getting paid the same as you?

If she is getting exactly what you're getting and she isn't doing or isn't able to do her share of the job assigned to her then I do feel you have a case to go on.

Rather than suggest a cut in pay for the females suggest a rise in pay for the males. (this will be hard to swing alright) That way you can get the women somewhat on your side as well.

A.

Read his other posts, and not just his first one.

WindSock · 08-03-2007 07:49PM

My first job was working in a hotel. The males got promoted to work in the bar quicker than females and got paid more because they lifted/rolled kegs etc. Which was fine, but I spent my couple of years there stuck being a waitress with an unchanging wage, while other males and newbies got promoted. As for lifting, I had to lift a heavy tray with full Irish breakfasts and pots of tea up three flights of stairs in the mornings. Fair?

Judt · 08-03-2007 08:07PM

boreds wrote:

My first job was working in a hotel. The males got promoted to work in the bar quicker than females and got paid more because they lifted/rolled kegs etc. Which was fine, but I spent my couple of years there stuck being a waitress with an unchanging wage, while other males and newbies got promoted. As for lifting, I had to lift a heavy tray with full Irish breakfasts and pots of tea up three flights of stairs in the mornings. Fair?

I dunno, ever heaved a whole load of kegs around?

Overheal · 09-03-2007 02:26AM

How far did they have to lift the kegs? I find my self doing skips full of bottles (approx. 50 and 100 gallon size skips) up and down 5 flights for 4 levels. Then of course accidents happen; the kitchen spills oil on the stairs and doesnt bother to clean it up, I fall down, drop 100 gallons worth of broken bottles, pick up the pieces at 3am and slice open my hand.

And your talking to me about tea?

Blush_01 · 09-03-2007 03:04AM

Ah jaysus, you cut your hand, shure doesn't she bleed every month? G'wan out now and play in the sandbox.

In my old job it was, understandably, all-in. I wouldn't expect any of the guys to lift something for me - if it's too heavy for me to lift it, chances are it's not really supposed to be lifted without assistance. I'd be embarrassed to ask someone else to lift something for me (unless my arms were already full). If I'm working then regardless of how much I get paid in relation to anyone else, I'll lift, drag, haul and do what is required as part of the job. That said, there was one guy who owned one of the shops I worked in at times and he would never let me use the ladder, he insisted on sending one of the guys up to do the higher bits. It drove me mental - I was there to do my job, so why couldn't I do it? Insurance? Load of toss, if you ask me.

To be honest, I don't care what anyone else earns. I'm only concerned with my wages, because nobody else's wages are going to put money in the meter, so why should it bother me?

BTW, I'm more than feminist at times. But I believe that equality, which is what feminism SHOULD be about, should be tempered with realism. It's not equality if you're not willing to do the job you're paid for because of this or that - you shouldn't be in the job if you're not willing to do its constituent parts.

Red-Ice's problem, however, is different. The women he was talking about weren't employed to help him do his job, just as he wasn't employed to haul stuff up steps for them. I wouldn't have taken that from them, to be honest. Let your boss blame you later if he wishes, but if they wanted their lives made easier let them rig up a pulley system or something, none of your problem or business how they fix it. But don't go blaming all women for some women being c*nts to you.

Fighting Irish · 09-03-2007 03:07AM

Does a woman even work with you or is this a "what would happen if.....?"

seamus · 09-03-2007 10:22AM

boreds wrote:

My first job was working in a hotel. The males got promoted to work in the bar quicker than females and got paid more because they lifted/rolled kegs etc. Which was fine, but I spent my couple of years there stuck being a waitress with an unchanging wage, while other males and newbies got promoted. As for lifting, I had to lift a heavy tray with full Irish breakfasts and pots of tea up three flights of stairs in the mornings. Fair?

I get what you're trying to say, but lifting kegs and lifting trays are two very different matters.
If you were carrying 85 pints of Guinness on a tray which weighed nearly ten kilos, then you might have a point.

ruprect · 09-03-2007 11:08AM

Lil Kitten wrote:

Is she getting paid the same amount? In general women get paid I think about 16% less than men. Which is huuuge!

In general women work less over their lives than men, so have less experience. Experience is a huuuge factor in the pay people get. If there was a sudden culture/medical change overnight where men could have babies transplanted into them and take maternity off work and quit their job to raise a family while the wife remained a "breadwinner" then you would see wages changing accordingly.

I havent seen figures but would imagine on average women can type faster than men, some secretarial work demands a certain word per minute grading and people get paid accordingly. I see no problem with this, and see no problem with people being paid according to how much manual work they do. We have a strong woman in my workplace that lifts more weight in a day than any man in the place.

The Sweeper · 09-03-2007 02:59PM

I don't know many blokes who do the same amount of work at home as women do. Hoovering, changing beds, bathing children, washing clothes, cooking meals. Is there legislation to equalise that imbalance? Nope.

Is it fair? Nope.

What can you do?

Suck it up.

Tar.Aldarion · 09-03-2007 09:28PM

What do you mean you want me to want to do the washing up?
Why would I want to do the washing up?

kelle · 09-03-2007 09:40PM

red_ice wrote:

Apparently, its illegal for women to lift over 15kg in the work place. Insurance wont cover it either.

Does this apply only to your workplace? I'm a hospital worker and we frequently need to lift patients throughout the day, some very overweight. Usually, 2 of us will lift a patient (as you'd lift a patient by their arms, you can't use more than 2 people) which means we'll be carrying a lot more than 15kg each most of the time. At night-time, it's impossible to find anyone to help as We're on our own. I've had to do a lot of lifting while pregnant also.

WindSock · 10-03-2007 01:11AM

seamus wrote:

I get what you're trying to say, but lifting kegs and lifting trays are two very different matters.
If you were carrying 85 pints of Guinness on a tray which weighed nearly ten kilos, then you might have a point.

10 kilos or whatever things weigh are as heavy in relation to the person that carries them. A tray of food and liquid may not seem like much to a man, but it was much to me and my 16 year old girl arms. It was also doubly awkward (sp?), as I had to balance it too, being a tray.

kdouglas · 10-03-2007 01:34AM

kelle wrote:

...I've had to do a lot of lifting while pregnant also.

now i dont know much about pregnancy, being male and not planning any kids for another decade or so.... but arent you supposed to avoid lifting much when pregnant?

Sleepy · 10-03-2007 12:07PM

boreds wrote:

10 kilos or whatever things weigh are as heavy in relation to the person that carries them. A tray of food and liquid may not seem like much to a man, but it was much to me and my 16 year old girl arms. It was also doubly awkward (sp?), as I had to balance it too, being a tray.

So, what you're saying is that you weren't physically strong enough to do the same job the guys were being promoted into?

How, exactly, is it unfair that you didn't get that promotion? Does equality demand that you should have been promoted to do the 'nice' parts of the job only and left your male colleagues do the heavy lifting below stairs? If so, we need a new word for equality imho.

To be fair I've worked with women that were excellent bar-staff and well able to lift / tap kegs as needed so I'm not saying it's 'man's work', I just think it's a job for someone with the abilities to do it and if your size/strength aren't up to scratch, it's quite sexist of you to blame your bosses correct decision not to promote you into that area on gender discrimination.

simu · 10-03-2007 02:49PM

Poor men. Life is so unfair. lolz

kelle · 11-03-2007 02:14PM

kdouglas wrote:

now i dont know much about pregnancy, being male and not planning any kids for another decade or so.... but arent you supposed to avoid lifting much when pregnant?

Well, we are. But in my job we do 24 hour call where we work on our own, so we mightn't always get help during the night. But I stopped doing out of hours work at 30 weeks, when the bump got in the way!

WindSock · 11-03-2007 10:26PM

Sleepy wrote:

So, what you're saying is that you weren't physically strong enough to do the same job the guys were being promoted into?

How, exactly, is it unfair that you didn't get that promotion? Does equality demand that you should have been promoted to do the 'nice' parts of the job only and left your male colleagues do the heavy lifting below stairs? If so, we need a new word for equality imho.

a job for someone with the abilities to do it and if your size/strength aren't up to scratch, it's quite sexist of you to blame your bosses correct decision not to promote you into that area on gender discrimination.

Well I obviously am not as strong as men, but for that to deny me a promotion or pay rise is a bit sh1tty, being stuck on the bottom rung for a couple of years because I'm thought not to be able to carry kegs, you can see my annoyance. If I had got to work in the bar for more pay, I would have at least attempted to do all the keggy stuff, I would certainly feel bad if I felt I wasn't doing as much work as my peers, but in fact I was doing as much work as them in relation to my physical strength.
Cleaning up puke and piss is also seen as a 'womans' job, how is that not hard work?

animaal · 11-03-2007 11:06PM

boreds wrote:

Well I obviously am not as strong as men, but for that to deny me a promotion or pay rise is a bit sh1tty, being stuck on the bottom rung for a couple of years because I'm thought not to be able to carry kegs, you can see my annoyance. If I had got to work in the bar for more pay, I would have at least attempted to do all the keggy stuff, I would certainly feel bad if I felt I wasn't doing as much work as my peers, but in fact I was doing as much work as them in relation to my physical strength.
Cleaning up puke and piss is also seen as a 'womans' job, how is that not hard work?

Replace "bar work" with "financial work", see how it looks...

Well I obviously know less than my colleagues about finance, but for that to deny me a promotion or pay rise is a bit sh1tty, being stuck on the bottom rung for a couple of years because I'm thought not to be able to manage funds, you can see my annoyance. If I had got to work with stocks and shares for more pay, I would have at least attempted to do all the finance stuff, I would certainly feel bad if I felt I wasn't doing as much work as my peers, but in fact I was doing as much work as them in relation to my level of knowledge.

WindSock · 11-03-2007 11:15PM

Hahahaa. that does look funny, I see your point there but you can't compare lifting kegs to managing funds. For a financer that is their main job, lifting kegs isnt the most important job of a barperson.

Ronan|Raven · 11-03-2007 11:24PM

Women, know your limits.

WindSock · 11-03-2007 11:32PM

And on saying that, I may refer back to the OPs dilemma. Taking a job that is intended for using ones strength, ie a lifting job then I think it only fair to employ those strong enough to do the most work, which will almost all the time be men. I don't have a problem with that at all, after all men are good at that (not denying it's not hard work). What women are good at are looking good and being presentable and an aesthetic pleasure to front ones business (this is also not as easy as it seems). Why not pay us both in equal terms for what we are fundamentally good at?

I've never seen a slight woman do a heavy lifting job, and I've never seen a large unattractive man do a reception job.

JC 2K3 · 12-03-2007 01:20AM

At the end of the day those who do well in the working world are those with what are seen as traditionally male aspirations. Sadly, due to the fact that girls are still brought up playing with dolls and fantasising about being mothers while boys play with toy cars and guns and fantasise about much more ambitious prospects than simply being in a family with a wife and children, many women simply aren't brought up to have these aspirations like many men do.

At the end of the day it's all about what you aspire to be, not what gender you are. Yes, there are some male employers who might have sexist hiring policies, but it's really a societal issue.

Oh and on the topic of lifting. I think any law saying a woman can't lift over 15kg is stupid. Surely there are some women who can lift over 15kg easily and some men who cannot. Maybe the law should be no one who can't lift over 15kg may lift it.

flamingo · 12-03-2007 02:17AM

animaal wrote:

Replace "bar work" with "financial work", see how it looks...

Ah now, you're just being silly ... you cannot compare physical limitations with 'skill'/'knowledge' - where'd all the disabled, but perfectly capable, people be left then?! Never given an opportunity to advance?!

Someone else mentioned that they'd worked in Pennys when younger, and that being one of 5 blokes working there, they had to do some heavy moving - i think it says far more about this society that ONLY 5 of the staff were men. Penny's aint the highest paying job, nor has it got much in the way of career advancement, but it's overwhelmingly staffed by women. For heaps of reasons already stated (not all of which i agree with, btw), women are still typically left with the low paying jobs. The inequality is undeniable, and very little is being done at a government/societal/commercial level to even up the playing pitch (eg decent carer leave for both parents, decent flexitime/work from home for both parents, etc) - leaving women shouldering the burden, often unwillingly.

A relative of mine used to work in a large company in Dublin, and had no choice but to enforce a rule about the maximum weight a woman could carry, and was constantly inundated with requests from both women and men that this rule be changed. Women do not generally like being undermined in this manner, with assumpations being made about their abilities to do the job well, and very much resented not being allowed to do the same job as the men. In this case, they were simply not hired/promoted, and were forced to take lower paid jobs, despite the fact that they were willing to do the same work the men were doing.

It's unfair to simply assume that most women expect more pay for doing a lesser job - most just want the chance to do the same job for the same pay.

Overheal · 12-03-2007 05:54AM

JC 2K3 wrote:

At the end of the day those who do well in the working world are those with what are seen as traditionally male aspirations. Sadly, due to the fact that girls are still brought up playing with dolls and fantasising about being mothers while boys play with toy cars and guns and fantasise about much more ambitious prospects than simply being in a family with a wife and children, many women simply aren't brought up to have these aspirations like many men do.

At the end of the day it's all about what you aspire to be, not what gender you are. Yes, there are some male employers who might have sexist hiring policies, but it's really a societal issue.

Oh and on the topic of lifting. I think any law saying a woman can't lift over 15kg is stupid. Surely there are some women who can lift over 15kg easily and some men who cannot. Maybe the law should be no one who can't lift over 15kg may lift it.

Thats very well put. I commend you on your parenting view.

However the issue has to go beyond that because lets face it a lot of people are brought up that way and it happens: what can they do about it now?

It would be great if Women had an equivalent position to men in all trades and profession and vice versa but that isnt the case: in a bar scenario its a typically male dominated arena in terms of pay and promotion: we can lift more etc. and the work doesnt involve any of that superior intellect women *supposedly

* have over us: its rather braindead stuff once you get trained into it.

Women still make it in there if they are good at it and they can prove that they are just as useful in other ways: girls tend to get the cleaning job in the bar/club because its lighter than say lifting kegs and bottle skips. Women can still stay on par when what really matters in terms of promotion in the field is not about how much you can lift in one go but have you the enegy for it, do you treat the customer well, can you serve a drink better than your fellow man/woman, etc. and often times this is exactly where women dominate: Me and all the lads I work with have rapidly deteriorating tempers when we are working while the women seem to be able to keep on trucking without any fuss. Tough bitches.

Look for things you can be doing: if you are just cruising along at the same rate because it because easy and comfortable thats probably why thats happening to you: every once in a while you have to push yourself to go farther; challenge yourself: say for me that would be (in a busy-ass nightclub) how many customers can I serve in 5 minutes, or down in the fancy hotel bar section how clean can I serve each of my drinks, and when the heavy lifting is called for I ask myself how much I can lift before I kill myself

and thats how I became the seniormost person in my position and then I realised today oh god Im sick of this job and I quit.

Actually that was more about them doing dodgy things to my paycheck: my speech still applies

animaal · 12-03-2007 03:06PM

flamingo wrote:

Ah now, you're just being silly ... you cannot compare physical limitations with 'skill'/'knowledge' - where'd all the disabled, but perfectly capable, people be left then?! Never given an opportunity to advance?!

It was a bit tounge-in-cheek, but the message was intended.

Some jobs need physical strength, and some need skill/knowledge. If a job needs skill/knowledge, and an applicant doesn't have it (or only has a relatively small amount of it), an employer can give the position to somebody with more of that skill/knowledge. Why should it be different for a job that requires physical strength?

We're all special, but it doesn't mean we can all do what we want, regardless of ability. When employers are ordered to stop discriminating based on ability to do the job, I'll be first in the queue to sign for Liverpool

As for disabled people, sorry, I don't understand your question. A mentally challenged person is unlikely to be a stockbroker. A person in a wheelchair is unlikely to get a job moving kegs, but could be a very good stockbroker if they have the ability.

JC 2K3 · 12-03-2007 06:09PM

Overheal wrote:

However the issue has to go beyond that because lets face it a lot of people are brought up that way and it happens: what can they do about it now?

Well don't bring their kids up with such defined and outdated gender roles for a start.

damnyanks · 12-03-2007 07:35PM

red_ice wrote:

I dont work with a woman, a situation came up at a place i was delivering to which was being run by a bunch of bitchy women. Im only insured to take product C into area A of the place i deliver to. The women in the store were ordering me to take the product to an area which involved me going up 2 sets of 30 steps (i counted). I never got a please or anything, i was being told. I told them im not insured, and they said "we are not allowed by law to take them up the steps, so do it or i will talk to your boss and have you fired". So i called their bluff. I told them to call my boss.

I get this crap every time i do these deliveries, and the funny thing is its 80% of the time its women who give me sh1t. Im a pleasant bloke, a smile with hello/please/thank you will go along way (regardless of gender), and ill help them out. These people tried to blackmale me as such into doing their job, which by law they are not allowed to do. My boss got on the phone to me, and didnt give out, he was very level headed and insisited i leave the product where it is. An hour later the owner of the place i delivered to called up my boss, gave him stick and threatened him - litterally. Anyways, he was saying i was to blame yaddah yaddah...

When i got back to the warehouse we got talking about the situation and the boss said about the equal rights thing, and that if he gets a female applicant he sadly has to try avoid taking her on due to the workload and so on for the original points made. Everyone who works in this place gets a nice wage and is treated equal.

What gets me ryaled up is the fact that im getting told to do stuff outside my place of work by bitchy polish women who wont do their job, and expect equal pay to that of their male counterparts in the work place to when it comes down to it, do the majority of the work.

The situation i witnessed was to the customer. 3 people working in the same place, 1 of which is a bloke had to lift 50 of product C up the stairs on his own, and more than likely did product A and B.

Its a disgrace.

MMMMMOOOOOOORRRRRRKKKKKKKK

Hit em!

or...

you stood your ground fair play. indeed.

equal rights, equal pay - not fair?

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