Bouncers - Right to refuse Admission VS Discrimination

Terry · 18-02-2007 03:32AM

Well, you are scum...

unreggd · 18-02-2007 03:36AM

brianthebard wrote:

I don't think its legislated against, unless you have a source?

Edit: btw, I've yet to be refused entry on a night out. Perhaps I'm just not going to the high class places...

thats what im askin too

what ever happened with that traveller who sued someone for gettin refused in a club

Note, i may have dreamt that

brianthebard · 18-02-2007 03:59AM

unreggd wrote:

thats what im askin too

what ever happened with that traveller who sued someone for gettin refused in a club

Note, i may have dreamt that

I know you can't/aren't allow to discriminate against someone on the grounds of sexual orientation, gender, race, membership of the travelling community and nationality, disability and age.(from business studies 5 years ago-fúck is it that long ago??) but I've never heard of discrimination on looks being a legislated on. I therefore surmise, given my complete lack of legal knowledge, that its ok to tell someone they aren't allowed into the club based on looks.

Are they ugly?? (no seriously, that could be why)

@Terry: Takes one to know one:D

seamus · 18-02-2007 04:03AM

For what it's worth, judging someone based on how they look isn't necessarily illegal discrimination. It's always discrimination, but refusing someone because they aren't dressed properly is neither illegal or morally wrong.

However, there does seem to be a trend recently of blanket saying nothing for fear or having someone beat down the door with their solicitor. Has to be done I guess.

It is illegal to refuse someone on the grounds of race, color, creed, religion, disability, national origin, sex, or sexual orientation. Everything else however, is fair game and rightly so.
When I say illegal, it's a civil matter, not a criminal one. So if you get refused from a club, the Gardai can't help you and will only get involved if it looks like you're going to be causing hassle.

Overheal · 18-02-2007 08:59AM

Haven't a Clue wrote:

Smartarse bouncers are pricks. I got stopped on new years eve, I'm only 17, and got nowhere with me fake id. He just says: "You'll havew to come back next year."

Fair enough says I. So I go back up to the place at 1 and surely enough get in. Too good for the smartarse gob****e.

Did you consider that you had come back next year? Perhaps he was serious.

2 tips for getting in: 1) Guilty look: think only of your favorite song/sex session/etc.

2) Always follow immediately behind the group of girls that dont wear bras.

Try and remember a few bouncers are only pricks because they have to be: they're usually the ones working the inside but they are sound folk. All you can do is try to befriend them whenever you do get in: maybe get permission to drop their name when you run into trouble

I_and_I · 18-02-2007 10:23AM

A lot of places have dress codes so I am guessing they are fully within their right to enforce that. But I have to agree that bouncers (majority at least) are not good at their jobs and are usually hot tempered and egotistical, not to mention perverted. They need better screening/training for individuals who wish to become bouncers, instead of this "oh your a big lad. you want the chance to kick the **** out of drunk and sober people every night?". I mean how appealing is that to some guy who has been bullied all his life and has gone to the gym for the past couple of years to put on 100lbs of pure muscle covering 15 years of unreleased rage.

ROCKMAN · 18-02-2007 12:14PM

Alright, its time one of us brain-dead morons had a say..

I have worked as a doorman on and off for the last ten years.
AND YES THERE ARE SOME DICK HEADS WORKING IN OUR PROFESSION but i have met DICK HEADS working in offices, factories, shops etc..... and to paint everybody with the same brush is discrimination

As a doorman your job is simple, it's to protect the staff, customers and property of the venue you are working (in that order i personally think) and with this thought in mind you must make your decisions .
At the door people behaviour ,body language and yes (unfortunately) appearance is all you have to go on and yes you will get it wrong sometimes but staff and customer safety comes first. It only take one scumbag to ruin a lot of people's night out.

Just a thought you might think of the next time you are discussing what a
great night last night was..........the next day with ur mates

Slutmonkey57b · 18-02-2007 01:31PM

If people on here think doormen are scumbags, you should see the customers.
Particularly in this country. Drunk, brainless, low-brow, Entitlement Bastard, argumentative rabble the lot of them.

Rb · 18-02-2007 02:08PM

InFront wrote:

In general I tend to have a bad opinion of them. I was going into a certain nightclub with friends *down under* a well known shopping centre one night after study, and I had my schoolbag with me, and the guy just turned it over and emptied it right there. What a rude thing to do, I think he thought I was smuggling in alcohol or 10kgs of cocaine or something. Anyway, loads of bad experiences, they have a tough job but meh, don't do it if you can't handle it.

It may be rude, but its necessary. I mean, you could have literally anything in the bag and its their job to ensure the security of their customers, if you happened to have a weapon in the bag and got a bit rowdy, then they'd be f*cked as they hadn't done their job properly.

I'm all for bouncers and I'm all for the discrimination, it keeps the scumbags out, even though the bouncers are basing it on their appearance, it does somewhat heighten the level of security. However, some scum will always get in, but at least they're not in the majority.

Futureman · 18-02-2007 02:43PM

I've never been refused in my life, so I welcome them refusing anyone who looks like a plonker who might ruin the buzz: football jackets, Le Coq Sportif jumpers, burberry caps, knacker taches, football jerseys, luminous shirts, etc, etc...

It's 100% their call, so discrimination doesn't even come into it - FACT! It's like me saying I don't want to hang around with pikeys - you can't sue me for that, as it's 100% my call. Same goes for publicans and THEIR premises'. So get a grip, OP - there's nothing you or anyone can do about it if you want to enter someone else's property: you play by their rules or you don't get in! You don't have any "right" to be allowed onto someone else's property.

Would you let a bunch of knackers into a party in your house? If your answer is no, then that's discrimination by your logic. Get the point yet?

Crucifix · 18-02-2007 02:45PM

InFront wrote:

In general I tend to have a bad opinion of them. I was going into a certain nightclub with friends *down under* a well known shopping centre one night after study, and I had my schoolbag with me, and the guy just turned it over and emptied it right there. What a rude thing to do, I think he thought I was smuggling in alcohol or 10kgs of cocaine or something. Anyway, loads of bad experiences, they have a tough job but meh, don't do it if you can't handle it.

Did he actually just turn it upside down and let it pour onto the ground?! I think a search is understandable, but I'd be livid if they treated my personal property like that. Plus I treat all my books like they're the original, and sole, copy of some sacred text.

Dragan · 18-02-2007 03:13PM

unreggd wrote:

How does that make sense?

Yes, they reserve the right to refuse you admission, but on what grounds? If you're clearly completely sober, the only other way they can judge is how you look, which, is dicrimination.

Also, if a bouncer says NOT TONIGHT, and you ask why, they say "If I give you a reason its discrimination"
they think this covers them but its actually means they've just told you they ARE discriminating against you, but wont tell you why.

I think its just an abuse of power, make some muppets feel like hardmen. They even go around boxin people if they stall the queue for a whole 20 seconds.

They need to know they're not the Gardai, and they're should be some sort of law about this kind of thing

Honestly, it doesnt really affect me personally as I tend to get in anywhere I go, regardless bein a regular, but it happens to some of my friends, every time, and its stupid.

Discuss

Personally i suggest you give some examples of times and places where this has been happening. Some crews are crap, some are great. As a doorman i don't agree with everything that happens on doors, which is why i pick and choose where i work very carefully.

I will simply say to stop painting everyone with the same brush. It smacks of ignornace.

Overheal · 18-02-2007 03:22PM

I agree with this guy ^

You people can't seem to bitch at Bouncers about discrimination without discriminating in the process

imo.

I don't like a few of the bouncers that I work with but that doesnt mean theyre not there for my safety: I'd much rather have them acting like pr*ks to the general public than getting put into a potentially dangerous situation because of a lenient door policy.

Sarn · 18-02-2007 03:26PM

I would agree it can be annoying as hell being refused entry into a club and they do get it wrong on occassion. Hasn't happened to me in a few years though.

They can be very helpful, one night someone knocked my glasses off my head when on the dancefloor, one of the bouncers helped me find them (they were not in a good shape).

Bouncer: Not tonight.

Customer: Is it because I'm a left-handed, heterosexual, christian, irish, male caucasian in my mid-twenties?

Dragan · 18-02-2007 03:36PM

I will simply say one or two things

1) Imagine any club without security staff. If you look at the places you like drinking in i imagine it has a good vibe, you feel safe in there and can relax and enjoy yourself. Now take away the door staff and see what happens.

The simple fact is that the first job of any doorman is to ensure the safety of staff and customers. Unfortunately a lot of guys forget this fact and do there jobs with attitude, like being a doorman makes them someone.

I hate to break it to those guys but it's just another job folks, so chill the attitude and get back to doing your job.

2) To anyone who is stopped on a door i will simply say to ask for a reason. If i'm stopping you it's because i can give you a valid reason, the same rule should apply to ever club/pub.

3) For non drinkers who get stopped , i have done this once or twice. The way someone was acting in a queue led me to believe they were drunk. I asked them have they been drinking and learn more from talking to them. When i'm happy they are not drunk in they go. It's my perogitive to ask you whatever questions i feel are required to establish if you are drunk or sober..... i hear the "I don't drink" thing from hammered people all the time, as do all doormen, so forgive us for making sure.

My policy is simple....if i stop you it's for a reason, i will explain that to you and you can argue or walk away. Coming back the next time have recitified the issue will see you safely in the door be it that you were drunk, rowdy, dressed in a way that goes against the dress code on that particular door or whatever it may be.

If you want to stand there and cause a scene then you will simply be refused custom in future. I don't have time for arguments and messers.

Caliden · 18-02-2007 03:42PM

The perks of knowing the bouncers to your favourite club, getting in when you're clearly extremely pissed.

Love it.

Futureman · 18-02-2007 06:24PM

Caliden wrote:

The perks of knowing the bouncers to your favourite club, getting in when you're clearly extremely pissed.

Love it.

Wow, you're so connected....

nesf · 18-02-2007 06:39PM

Dragan wrote:

Personally i suggest you give some examples of times and places where this has been happening. Some crews are crap, some are great. As a doorman i don't agree with everything that happens on doors, which is why i pick and choose where i work very carefully.

That's really what it comes down to doesn't it? As in all professions there are a few pricks that give the rest of the guys working in it a bad name.

mloc · 18-02-2007 06:49PM

Well, I think its fair to say that not all bouncers are the same, and not all bouncers act the same to the same customers.

Every pub or club has its atmosphere, and as well as the safety of the individuals inside, its up to the doormen to maintain the atmosphere. This may mean restricting entry based on dress code, appearance, sobriety, age (back to this one in a sec) and other behavioral and physical attributes.

Nightclubs have died because of lax door policy in hard times pissing off regulars and alienating them from their club of choice. Word of mouth is the single strongest selling point for a club. Reputation is everything.

On the other hand, the lack of proper registration and regulation of doormen in Ireland is a problem. There are those in the minority who through acting unprofessionally serve to tarnish the name of doormen in general. Any time a pawn off excuse is used such as "regulars only" or "members only", where there is clearly non-members in attendance, just makes them look like they are crap at thier job. Also the use of "sorry, over 21s only" is only legal if this is displayed clearly in writing.

At the end of the day, there's not a whole lot you can do. Sure, you might feel aggreived when you're drunk, but the next day at least you know you won't bother going back to the same place again.

18-02-2007 08:35PM

Futureman wrote:

I've never been refused in my life, so I welcome them refusing anyone who looks like a plonker who might ruin the buzz: football jackets, Le Coq Sportif jumpers, burberry caps, knacker taches, football jerseys, luminous shirts, etc, etc...

Hey.. there's nothing wrong with my taste in clothes

But on a similar note, what about in England where some shopping centres have banned the wearing of hoodies in and around the premise.

nesf · 18-02-2007 08:40PM

Deleted User wrote:

But on a similar note, what about in England where some shopping centres have banned the wearing of hoodies in and around the premise.

I think it's a bit idiotic tbh. It's a bit like taking paracetamol for the headache that your brain tumour is giving you. It might seem to improve things but the underlying problem will still be there.

faceman · 18-02-2007 10:03PM

i find the that alot of pubs/clubs in ireland have become pretentious with a door policy and its fair to say the most people will have a lame experience when trying to get into a club/pub.

That being said I have found that as I get older i give less of a toss if i get refused (altho you do get refused less and less as you get older), its simply bring your custom elsewhere. If the door policy and doorman are tossers then simply dont bother goin there again. No love lost. Anyone else feel this way? (Im almost 30!)

As far some of the talk of discrimination, it was actually because of the claims against pubs/clubs after the equality act (2000) was brought in that the legislation was slightly changed to make it more difficulty to make a case.

Either way there are 7 grounds for discrimination such as gender, Age, race, member of the travelling community, marital status etc but appearance aint one of them. Put simply if you go up to the door of the club and they say no without givin u a reason its like this. Unless you can prove you were discriminated against on one of those grounds then forget it! E.g. lets say you are gay and the doorman says no but doesnt say why. You could argue that the perception was your sexual preference. (cases have been one in this scenario where age was the issue)

I know of a case where the plantiff, after refusing entry went to the local garda station to give a statement so that it was on file that he was sober. (it was late on a sat nite). He did this so that the pub couldnt turn round and say he was hammered!

:| · 18-02-2007 10:13PM

unreggd wrote:

thats what im askin too

what ever happened with that traveller who sued someone for gettin refused in a club

Note, i may have dreamt that

I think that was because the place had a sign up saying no travellers, not 100% sure though

source · 18-02-2007 10:22PM

mloc wrote:

Also the use of "sorry, over 21s only" is only legal if this is displayed clearly in writing.

This as far as i'm aware is also the case when it comes to dress code, it is supposed to be printed up and displayed outside the premises where you can read it before you approach the door staff.

I have had a few problems in Limerick, with some of the doorstaff, mainly with one pub in the market area of the city, this is what happened:

A mate and i walked up to the pub, after driving past and walking back to the door, i walked in and my friend was stopped, with the comment "where do you think you're going?" my friend reached for his ID and the doorman said, " I mean, look at the state of you", another saw this and came over and said " you're dressed too casual".

This is the point i reemerged from the pub, with the statement " but you left me in"

At this point i'll let you know what we were wearing, I had a pair of Jeans, cream coloured skate shoes, and a black tshirt, my friend was wearing a white shirt closed over a white tshirt and black skate shoes.

He was too casual?????????

I then brought up the point that i made above re the dress code, and was told by a certain well known doorman in limerick of south african descent. and he told me to f*ck off, and said that in his opinion i was too drunk to get in.......I don't drink......

Now i have nothing personally against a doorman doing his job,or being tough on scum when causing trouble, but there is no need to be that rude,when dealing with the public.

sure it is a tough job, i wouldn't deny that for a second, but i personally feel that most of the trouble that starts on the doors of places is due to doormen who are untrained in dealing with the public, not all but some!!!!

I've also been told that my driving liscense and my passport is fake on a few occassions, with the most summary of inspections.WRONG!!!!! no matter how you look at it.

just my 2 cents

Time Magazine · 18-02-2007 10:41PM

Some security guards/bouncers are c*nts, it must be said.

I remember I was going into a fairly normal Irish pub pub on Westmoreland St a few months ago with the missus. We were just going for one before we went home after a movie or something. As I said it's an Irish pub, not a posh place. Still, we weren't dressed up so I was half-expecting to be turned down. So when he asked for ID I showed my Trinity ID card to lessen the impact of my jeans etc. He replies "Sorry, no students."

C*nt.

source · 18-02-2007 10:48PM

You'd love it down here mate, there are or at least were places here which only accepted student ID even at weekends, refused DL passport and garda age cards, LOL i had a laugh at that one, the latest college ID's don't even have DOB on them.

Hard Larry · 18-02-2007 10:51PM

Doormen in this country could learn a thing or two from the bouncers across the Irish Sea in Merry Old England. Nicest Bouncers in the World.

TBH the majority of Door Monkies in Dublin want to feel like Hard Men.

A lot of people are saying Publicans are fully entitled to refuse you entry....thats fine then bring the publican to the door not some Knuckle Dragger whos on a power trip.

Ive had countless encounters with Irish Bouncers and the one thing they are scared of is Garda...the slighrest hint of a Garda nearby or a phone call to a Garda 'friend' and you'll be inside in no time. They dont want their little nixer to come under the spot light.

A good way to get back at them is to ring the club the next day and tell them you are from an entertainments magazine and you'd like to know why the door staff refused you entry as you were going to write a review.

But not all bouncers are muppetts in fact some of my mates are/were door staff. And luckily I know the pubs/clubs where all the sound bouncers are so I try to avoid confrontation on the more main stream clubs in Dublin by just not going.

And no I wont tell you where all the sound bouncers are.

brianthebard · 18-02-2007 11:19PM

foinse wrote:

You'd love it down here mate, there are or at least were places here which only accepted student ID even at weekends, refused DL passport and garda age cards, LOL i had a laugh at that one, the latest college ID's don't even have DOB on them.

My sis is in limerick, in her first year she doctored her birthcert and got a college ID saying she was 18, that got her into every club and pub in Limerick. stupid bast*rds.

faceman · 18-02-2007 11:25PM

Hard Larry wrote:

Doormen in this country could learn a thing or two from the bouncers across the Irish Sea in Merry Old England. Nicest Bouncers in the World.

Yeah i agree, ive never had a bad experience with a doorman in the uk. Totally different attitude with door policies.

connundrum · 18-02-2007 11:49PM

Hard Larry wrote:

Doormen in this country could learn a thing or two from the bouncers across the Irish Sea in Merry Old England. Nicest Bouncers in the World.

In your experience.

Hard Larry wrote:

TBH the majority of Door Monkies in Dublin want to feel like Hard Men..

Says 'Hard Larry'.

Hard Larry wrote:

A lot of people are saying Publicans are fully entitled to refuse you entry....thats fine then bring the publican to the door not some Knuckle Dragger whos on a power trip.

You'd like the Publican to be present every night on the off chance that you'd be refused and would want a personal explaination?

Hard Larry wrote:

Ive had countless encounters with Irish Bouncers and the one thing they are scared of is Garda...the slighrest hint of a Garda nearby or a phone call to a Garda 'friend' and you'll be inside in no time. They dont want their little nixer to come under the spot light.

Maybe in the old days. In my experience, the majority of door men are on the books and will have received some degree of training. We all must have our Door Security Procedures (DSP) course done by April iirc. Hopefully that will stamp out a lot of the crap which gets us all tarred with the same brush.

And I've had my fair share of confrontations with Guards. All I have to do is explain my reason for refusing the individual, and then that is usually that. Remember that I can take the Guards details and make a complaint if I feel that he is being forceful in attempting to gain access for his mate. We are all accountable.

Hard Larry wrote:

A good way to get back at them is to ring the club the next day and tell them you are from an entertainments magazine and you'd like to know why the door staff refused you entry as you were going to write a review.

You could do that, if you had absolutely nothing else going on in your life.

Hard Larry wrote:

But not all bouncers are muppetts in fact some of my mates are/were door staff. And luckily I know the pubs/clubs where all the sound bouncers are so I try to avoid confrontation on the more main stream clubs in Dublin by just not going.

And no I wont tell you where all the sound bouncers are.

Again, this is in your experience. You might have trouble getting into Venue A, whilst there are obviously 300-400 other people who are having no problems at all.

If I have a strict policy to enforce then I will enforce it, as it is what I'm getting paid to do. My current situation sees me with the following list of no-no's:

Strictly no access after 12.15am for new customers. (that means no access, regardless of whether your friends are inside.)

Smart shoes - no runners, skateboard shoes etc. (the Publican requested this as he would like to bring the tone of the venue up a notch or two. It stands to reason that smart casual dress would follow.)

No access for obviously drunk customers. (like Dragan, I've made the mistake in initially refusing entry to the designated driver. He/she was obviously acting in a way that would arouse my suspicion.)

An over 21's policy is advised but not strictly adhered to. (we tend to let everyone in once they can prove their age.)

Apart from that we can use our discretion in making a decision on specific cases.

I've had good and bad experiences with taxi drivers, bank clerks, guards, estate agents, teachers, clergy etc etc. Do I tar them all with the same brush? No, because I realise that we are all human. Get over it.

Bouncers - Right to refuse Admission VS Discrimination

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