bb vs button

phantom_lord · 09-02-2007 03:45PM #1

Holdem No Limit - $1 BB

CO ($72.75)
Button ($90)
SB ($121.75)
BB ($157.50) [phantom_lord]
UTG ($103.75)
MP ($100)

phantom_lord is BB with Q:spade:, K

Preflop: (6 players, $1.5)
3 folds, Button calls $1 and raises $3, SB folds, phantom_lord calls $3

Flop: T:spade:, T:club:, K:club: (2 players, $8.5)
phantom_lord checks, Button bets $7, phantom_lord calls $7

Turn: J:spade: (2 players, $22.5)
phantom_lord checks, Button bets $16, phantom_lord calls $16

River: 8:spade: (2 players, $54.5)
phantom_lord checks, Button bets $36

villain multi-tabling 23/11/1.4 tag. fair enough i beat f-all, but i think there's a decent chance he's 3 barrelling me...anyone call?

my stats are pretty similiar to his, so I'm almost am playing myself, and I'd have air here alot as well as kq/ak/kj

should have rr pf

LuckyLloyd · 09-02-2007 04:24PM

This post has been deleted.

valor · 09-02-2007 04:25PM

I fold preflop, and fold river vs that agg factor

valor · 09-02-2007 04:26PM

check raising this flop is not a good line

LuckyLloyd · 09-02-2007 04:27PM

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord · 09-02-2007 04:29PM

valor wrote:

I fold preflop, and fold river vs that agg factor

those a similiar stats to mine and do a ton of button stealing and fire a good few barrels

phantom_lord · 09-02-2007 04:32PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Re - raising someone with those stats pre - flop wouldn't be a great idea - I think a call and lookie at the flop is ok. I would have checkraised the flop though...a call there isn't great IMO - its a good flop for you and I think a raise will make your subsequent decisions on the turn and river easier.

Your line is super weak, so he may be three barrelling you - sure. But you have played it like a lot of players would play draws - the flush has got there on the end and he has still bet. I'm folding.

only back door flush has hit.
I think calling him down is better, since he folds all hands we beat etc and doesn't continue bluffing if we c/r.

reraising pf is what I'm meant to do here, isn't it? where's cardshark??

valor · 09-02-2007 04:34PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Why?

bloating the pot out of position with a marginal enough hand where all worse hands apart from MAYBE KJ fold, we are essentially bluffing

cooker3 · 09-02-2007 04:36PM

I am not a big fan of calling pre flop. I think I would rather re-raise but tbh I would rather re-raise with air then this sort of hand as it could get you in trouble and that flop is the sort of flop that can get you in trouble.

I like the call on the flop, I disagree with lloyd here. C/R means he will fold when he doesn't have a hand which he probably doesn't a lot of the time and basically folds everything you beat while he calls or re-raises when he is ahead. I may call on the turn, you seem to think he can fire 2 barrels and if he does that a lot then calling is good but fold on the river. As Valor says his stats suggest he is not the sort of guy who fires 3 barrels.

Btw Phantom, do you really fire 3 barrels a lot on a bluff, surely can't be profitable at that level?

phantom_lord · 09-02-2007 04:39PM

cooker3 wrote:

Btw Phantom, do you really fire 3 barrels a lot on a bluff, surely can't be profitable at that level?

not so much now, i did alot at 25/50 when I thought I'd get away with it. worked most of the time, good for the meta game anyway!

valor · 09-02-2007 04:43PM

meta game is so unimportant at this level

LuckyLloyd · 09-02-2007 04:46PM

This post has been deleted.

cooker3 · 09-02-2007 04:58PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Ok - if the consensus is to call the flop so that he continue's taking pops with a weaker hand then surely the river is an auto call?? If we decide to play it this way how can we fold the river?? If we were ahead on the flop how are we not ahead now by that logic?

The reason I like a raise is precisely because check calling on flop and turn will lead to this situation many times against a decent opponent - where we are facing a decent bet with a marginal holding and no idea as to whether our opponent is strong or not.

Of course I understand the logic behind him folding hands we beat, staying with hands we don't most of the time - but our lline leads to this horrible situation on the end. Maybe taking the pot down on the flop or dropping on the flop is better than this??

This is when use our knowledge of the opponant. Now we have some PT stats which helps and his AF is 1.4, this suggests he rarely fires 3 barrel bluffs. So this leans me to a fold.

The more I think about this the more I think folding turn maybe the best move. The reason I would call is because of the added value of the draw the to straight as well but on paired board I don't think it's worth much.

Tar.Aldarion · 09-02-2007 05:14PM

Bet the flopppp.

fuzzbox · 09-02-2007 07:40PM

I prefer to reraise or fold this hand preflop. Most often I just give it up against this type of guy. But reraise has its merits, as he can be stealing with lots of stuff here, and your hand figures to be the best hand fairly often. But he still has position, and his range is tight enough that you could get in trouble if you make a big pot.

As played, i try to fold the river, but I like your line up till then.

Hectorjelly · 09-02-2007 07:44PM

Very bad call preflop, a raise on the flop would be ok, but if I did it it would be as a bluff and only against someone who doesnt bluff much and will fold all non ten hands

phantom_lord · 09-02-2007 08:14PM

Hectorjelly wrote:

Very bad call preflop, a raise on the flop would be ok, but if I did it it would be as a bluff and only against someone who doesnt bluff much and will fold all non ten hands

Would you never reraise this pf?

Anyway, I thought he was on a steal and called pf/flop/turn(I really think it was a rr of fold pf) I came oh so close to calling on the river before eventually timing it out. he showed a2o, boo.

I'm just really disappointed that I was pretty dead on with what was going on but didn't follow through on the river. and he's lucky that it was me in this hand cause anyone else on the table woulda snap called the river.

The reason I like a raise is precisely because check calling on flop and turn will lead to this situation many times against a decent opponent - where we are facing a decent bet with a marginal holding and no idea as to whether our opponent is strong or not.

Of course I understand the logic behind him folding hands we beat, staying with hands we don't most of the time - but our lline leads to this horrible situation on the end. Maybe taking the pot down on the flop or dropping on the flop is better than this??

Most players wont fire three barrels, so we'll pick it up on the turn/river easily enough, and I'd imagine there's a chance that if I'd c/r the flop he come over the top. And it lets him play pretty much perfectly, he either folds or makes a bet we can't call.

fuzzbox · 09-02-2007 08:49PM

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The reason I like a raise is precisely because check calling on flop and turn will lead to this situation many times against a decent opponent - where we are facing a decent bet with a marginal holding and no idea as to whether our opponent is strong or not.

Of course I understand the logic behind him folding hands we beat, staying with hands we don't most of the time - but our lline leads to this horrible situation on the end. Maybe taking the pot down on the flop or dropping on the flop is better than this??

What happens if you raise the flop?

Why is it better than this line?

Putting yourself at this tough decision with a chance to win money - if you play well - is better than removing the tough decision, but also removing your money-making chance.

ianmc38 · 09-02-2007 09:09PM

If i got to the river i'd call.

Hectorjelly · 09-02-2007 09:18PM

Yeah definitely reraise sometimes

cardshark202 · 10-02-2007 01:27AM

As fuzz says, I fold pf most times, re-raise some times. I think you can fold the turn or river vs this opponent.

TacT · 10-02-2007 09:43AM

fold preflop for an easier life but since you've called you have to call the river figuring to be ahead

bb vs button

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