Something everyone should be aware of...

Gaspode · 05-02-2007 05:49PM

As a food scientist and omnivore I find a lot of what is being said here very hard to digest (:rolleyes:), and a lot of the OPs reasonings to be total twaddle. (BTW:If you dont want a debate on the subject why post on a discussion forum?!!!)
A varied diet including meat is the healthiest diet for humans. Excess meat is not good for you in the same way that strict veganism isnt good for you either. You can survive at both extremes, but you will definitley be healthier having the mixed diet that humankind has evolved to consume.

On a minor point, soya milk is not particularly good for you either - western (European) people dont always have the necessary enzymes to digest it fully, so we can get indigestion, bloating etc that we dont get normally with dairy products. Conversely, orientals would have difficulty with our high dairy diets.

I've worked in many food areas including meat and meat slaughter, but it wont put me off meat, no more than seeing the crap (dirt, insects etc) that is harvested with wheat and barley will put me off bread or beer!

brianthebard · 05-02-2007 06:48PM

Deaddude wrote:

http://animalcruelty.tk/

Is that a Poorly Educated Teen Activist I see before me?

Wibbs · 05-02-2007 07:07PM

InFront wrote:

Oh right, sorry didn't know you were serious. Halal is the opposite of haram, haram meaning banned. Examples of haram foods are alcohol and other intoxicants, carnivorous animals, pork, animal fats (e.g. margarine), blood and animals that haven't been killed in Allah's name and according to his methods, or animals that are dead of natural causes.

The dead from natural causes seems a healthy idea.

I'm not sure how most Muslims living in rurual areas manage Halal, I know some factories sell Halal directly to customers in rural areas,

I knew a chap of the Muslim persuasion a few years back. Lived in waterford and he got his Halal meat delivered to him. Not very often though, he often bitched about it.:D

but otherwise I would guess that a lot of Muslims remain largely vegetarian or maybe don't observe Halal at all.

Of the Muslims i've known, some drank alcohol, most didn't, but I never knew one who ate pork etc. Appeared to be a big no no regardless of their religious waywardness.

animal fats (e.g. margarine)

Margarine is a veggie oil based. Butter is out but what about marg? Does this mean excess fat attached to the meat? I presume not.

bluto63 · 05-02-2007 08:00PM

Chucky the tree wrote:

Good videos, still not as entertaining as seeing that pig get his head taken off with a chainsaw though.

ooh, wouldn't mind having a look at that

Tar.Aldarion · 05-02-2007 10:44PM

Wibbs wrote:

Agreed that's why I included milk and eggs in this. It's more the vegan diet that is far from the "healthy" choice some would have you believe.

It is completely healthy if you follow it well. That is much harder to do than with vegetarianism. My gf, health freak that she is(sorry honey;)) is such a case I would believe.

Personally I feel we eat far too much meat, especially cured meats and other unhealthy meats.

That is quite true. Most people I know that eat meat eat far too much.

Vit B12 of the kind that is bioavailable by humans is only found in animal products. While analogues of vit B12 are found in some plant foods(seaweeds/soya) they're useless to us.

This is wrong.
All of the Vitamin B12 in the world ultimately comes from bacteria. Neither plants nor animals can synthesize it. But plants can be contaminated with B12 when they come in contact with soil bacteria that produces it. Animal foods are rich in B12 only because animals eat foods that are contaminated with it or because bacteria living in an animal's intestines make it.

Study after study of vegans show B12 deficiencies.

This is wrong. Even studies of vegan children with vegan parents that just ate nori for b12 show no lack of B12.
A study where vegans ate just organic food showed that they had enough b12, and scientists did not know why.
Some studies show that vegans have as you say, some don't. The percentage suffering is usually higher for omnivores also.
I imagine it is because most vegans would eat fortified cereals/foods. Or the few foods that usually contain it.
I'm not saying vegans don't suffer deficiencies etc, just that everybody does, not just them. Most do not have clinical deficiency, very few do. Mostly people that wouold would be from developing countries.
If they cast a thought to their diet(Most do.) they should be fine.
"B12 deficiencies occur primarily when:
1.) Something is competing for your B12 (like parasites);
2.) Something is destroying your B12 (like cyanide in cigarettes); or
3.) Something is preventing the proper absorption of B12 (like inadequate production of intrinsic factor)."

This type of diet is also very bad for children.

It can be perfectly healthy, has to be monitored carefully for children.

Ouch. Get her an all that. Steady on, eat him? have you been properly introduced? In any case human flesh is pork like and a tad salty apparently. Not appetising at all.

It tastes like pork all right, tasty.

Well if it's any help to Tar.Aldarion two great uncles of mine(92/97 respectively) enjoy a hearty fry up a few times a week. I must ask their opinion.

At 104 I have fry ups too and I am still a sexy a woman as I ever was. Fake meat though these days.

*BTW when I say natural, I'm not one of these idiotic hippies that thinks everything "natural" is good and everything "man made" is bad M'kay.

Indeed, that is so. Luckily foods can be fortified with b12, and vegetarians have no trouble with it anyway. Vegans may have more, but many foods are available...

Foodscientist wrote:

A varied diet including meat is the healthiest diet for humans.

Wrong.
It is not contested by dietrary professionals that a vegetarian diet is at least as healthy as an omnivores one, if not moreso.
The biggest health study conducted in the world(I think it took over 20 years.) recommends vegetarianism because although both can be healthy, meat is known to be a cause of some diseases/cancers etc. It may not cause them in a lot of cases, of course.
I don't know what other reasons it cited.

Excess meat is not good for you in the same way that strict veganism isnt good for you either. You can survive at both extremes, but you will definitley be healthier having the mixed diet that humankind has evolved to consume.

Excess meat is bad for you, strict veganism is not if they eat correctly.
I have evolved to be able to digest cardboard, I don't serve it to myself.

I and I wrote:

Yes and its probably why I can't make sense of your eloquently worded post.

That is ok.

wibbs wrote:

The dead from natural causes seems a healthy idea.

A lot of buddhists will only eat meat that has died naturally, if they choose to eat mea at all.

CombatCow · 05-02-2007 11:48PM

Oh my god............I didn't know you could embed youtube videos into posts! Thanks

InFront · 06-02-2007 12:06AM

Wibbs wrote:

CLA is only found in meat, specifically ruminant animals meat.

No, you can get it in dairy products as well. And as another poster said, B12 doesn't have to be obtained from animals either.

Originally posted by Wibbs
Margarine is a veggie oil based. Butter is out but what about marg?

Yes it is based on that but there are margarines that do contain animal fats and we avoid these. There's nothing very technical about it: if in doubt it's best to avoid. Spent aages trying to figure out whether Special K was Haram or not a few months ago, didn't really get an answer so am now off it.

Butter is not all out the window either, you can buy butter that is safe to eat for Muslims. Animal shortening or animal fat from haram sources should never be used, if they are from trustworthy halal sources, then they are not haram.

Joseph · 06-02-2007 12:10AM

brianthebard wrote:

Is that a Poorly Educated Teen Activist I see before me?

Correction:

Well educated very bored teen activist you see

PS: I will be updating it etc I just threw that together in 5 minutes. (well.. about 30 seconds so people could link to it efficiently)

cormie · 06-02-2007 01:09AM

My reasonings total twaddle? My message was basically people should be aware of what does go on as this food will be available to the majority of people at one stage or another in their lives. Simple as that.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 06-02-2007 02:57AM

Didnt read the entire thread.

I'm almost vegetarian, had some high quality farmed turkey at christmas & if i knew i was getting good stuff I'd eat it. I also eat fish but avoid other meats/

I have no moral issues whatsoever with eating meat. Just my digestion's muhc better & i don't get heartburn anymore.

I think a healthy option would be red meat twice a month, white meat around the same & look to cut pork out altogether. I think theres a good reason whoever wrote the bible decided people shouldnt eat it. Does smell good I must admit.

Yes early tools were designed for getting bone marrow but based on our bodies I doubt meat was eaten that often. Also worth mentioning the game our ancestors on the savannah hunted would have been something like 4-5% fat (like wild deer) whereas the beef we eat is usually 20-25%

Really think people shoudl just eat much less meat.

Blush_01 · 06-02-2007 03:36AM

Is this still going on?

A number of things:

Ambro, give me an animal, a gun, a plethora of bullets, the correct knives and stuff and tell me how to do it, and I'll cook you something you'd be proud to call dinner. A butcher's apron might be nice, but some cold water'll get the blood out if it's fresh anyway, so it may not be an absolute necessity.

Divinkee, the Irish agriculture industry IS better than the American one in terms of cruelty to animals. That's not to say that cruelty doesn't exist, nobody is naive enough to claim that. But - lets take dairy as an example - do you think we should stop milking dairy herds in the morning and turn them loose in the countryside? I'm no farmer, but even I can see how that would be so unfair to animals who know no different and would be unable to fend for themselves long-term. Human evolution and the increase in the size and number of roads, evolution of towns, growth of hedges, increase in walls, fences etc. mean that grazing would be impossible, the huge tracts of land they'd need no longer exist in a form that's accessible without human intervention. There'd be no farmer there to feed the cows anymore if the grass supplies run too low. Unless they're dried off properly, or have a calf/calves to feed, there'll be mastitis problems. It'd be like turning the animals from a zoo loose with no regard for their safety.

After a while some would re-naturalise themselves, but they've been bred to do the job that they do. Particularly with AI the Sire chosen to match the Dam is chosen with a number of factors in mind - the pedigree of the resulting calf, the ease of calving, the qualities the calf will have, not to mention avoiding inbreeding. The family tree of both animals is checked out. The animal is bred to have the best qualities for the purpose it will fulfill in life. This can be likened to education - you educate yourself and become specialised in your particular area of expertise in order to do the best possible job. Farmers breed their animals to do the best possible jobs too. The use of growth hormones, Angel Dust etc. in animals is illegal in Ireland, and rightly so.

The circle of life (excuse me if this sounds a bit "Lion King") is, to a large extent, a wheel of evolution. We're part of the food chain too - although we tend to try to keep ourselves at the top. We lead a different kind of life to animals. Do you think that if a hungry omnivorous animal, regardless of breed, came across you tomorrow that they'd consider your vegetarianism before eating you? Would they try to kill you as humanely as possible? That's as likely as the animals, as you suggested, thinking carefully about why they were being bred and considering the deeper philosophical implications of their existence. Perhaps you've exchanged your hazy view of animals grazing in a field (where many of them still graze, you know) for a hazy view of existentialist bovines standing around, pondering and arguing the true meaning of life.

So yes, lets consider things for a moment. Consider that not everything you're basing your argument applies to Ireland, for one. In light of your vegetarianism, I doubt that'll change anything, which is understandable, and which I can respect. But if you're going to have a problem with the happy oblivion many omnivores like to live in, please also have a problem with half-baked extremist video clips that do little to enlighten people about the real way in which things are done. I'm not saying that all animals are treated ethically, I wish they were. But (referring to the original clips posted by Cormie as a basic example) realise that the depictions there are not the norm, would not be accepted by any farmer with half a heart and would most definitely not be accepted by the government, and are grounds for prosecution in Ireland, if not the rest of the world.

nesf · 06-02-2007 06:29AM

cormie wrote:

My reasonings total twaddle? My message was basically people should be aware of what does go on as this food will be available to the majority of people at one stage or another in their lives. Simple as that.

If you get up on a soapbox to preach on a controversial topic then you've got to expect a fair degree of criticism in response. Personally I don't agree with people putting up shock videos on here, especially ones that blatantly push an agenda (especially if it's PETA).

Have you any experience of dairy or beef farming in this country? Have you ever been in a milking parlour or slaughterhouse? Believe me when I say that those videos simply are not representitive of what happens in this country and really should be disregarded by people, especially the milk one. The fact that you posted them meaning them to be educational for people frequenting this forum (who are mainly Irish) means that you are ignorant of the reality of meat and milk production in this country.

If you are going to preach to people and 'show them the truth' then make sure you actually are not yourself ignorant of said truth to begin with.

From the health point of view, veganism is problematic, many of my vegan friends are against raising children as vegans for health reasons. They are the 'veganism is a moral choice' type vegans though instead of the PETA variety.

cormie · 06-02-2007 10:23AM

I wasn't preaching. Is it really that hard for everyone to accept that this type of processed food has, is or will be available to most of us at some stage in our life? Whether it goes on in Ireland is not the issue. The fact it goes on is the issue, regardless of where it is.

I don't think anyone is fully aware of how the food meat/dairy in our supermarkets has been produced so I think it's right to claim we're all ignorant.

Nobody has shown any proof of where every piece of meat in our supermarkets has come from or how the animal has been treated so were left to guess. My guess is that when a whole chicken can be bought for €4 and with the huge supply of milk at cheap prices, that the animals have been treated poorly in some way or another. As Divinkee says, what degree of animal cruelty is acceptable?

I'm sure the videos I posted are extreme cases, extreme or not it's proof it goes on. As has been described by Irish people working with Irish agriculture, it's not all green pastures and tlc here either and it sounds like it does go on here to some degree.

I personally don't see any harm in posting the videos. If you care about your food, health and that of animals too, then I think it's advisable to see how some of the foods available to us at some stage in our life may have been treated.

I don't think there's much to argue with in what I just wrote, which is how I intended the first post to be, but obviously didn't word it too well:p

06-02-2007 10:31AM

cormie wrote:

I don't think anyone is fully aware of how the food meat/dairy in our supermarkets has been produced so I think it's right to claim we're all ignorant.

"We don't know so *I* must be right" isn't a very good argument

cormie · 06-02-2007 10:45AM

bluewolf wrote:

"We don't know so *I* must be right" isn't a very good argument

cormie wrote:

I don't think there's much to argue with in what I just wrote

I don't know how you understood that as me saying I'm right and everyone else is wrong

Gaspode · 06-02-2007 10:49AM

cormie wrote:

I wasn't preaching. Is it really that hard for everyone to accept that this type of processed food has, is or will be available to most of us at some stage in our life?

Processed foods are nothing new, animals have been slaughtered for meat for hundreds of thousands of years. Whats the problem? before you saw those videos how on earth did you think the aniamals were turned into the meat you were eating?
I'd have to question the validity of the arguments of anyone (and not just specifically you, btw, but others on this thread) who would make a serious life-changing decision about their diet based on a youtube (and quite probably fake) video.

I love my veggies and eat as much as I can, but give me a thick steak with them anyday, the rarer the better. Dammit, just slap that cow on the ass and send it in here.

cormie · 06-02-2007 10:56AM

Well the difference is that in the past the animals would be treated as best as possible to help them grow to be good producers of milk etc naturally and to be a nice serving once they are killed.

As I said, I'm a meat eater too, I'm just a bit more concerned about where my meat comes from now. I'd really prefer not to eat meat that has come from an animal pumped full of hormones and subjected to such stressful and dangerous conditions.

I don't think the videos are fake at all. The extremities of what goes on, probably, but not fake.

faceman · 06-02-2007 11:05AM

what interesting about this thread is that everyone is having a pop at the OP over his misplaced catttle/chicken clips and views, but there are very few comments about the skinning of live animals. I think its fair to say that soceuty is changing for the better and there is better transparency in ireland and the uk on dariy farming.

As for becoming a vegan or veggie. you can put any argument forward you want but you do not want to end up looking like this guy anyway?

so who here wears fur etc and would care to say why? if no one does, id say its probably best to lock this thread as its goin nowhere.

r3nu4l · 06-02-2007 11:18AM

faceman wrote:

but there are very few comments about the skinning of live animals

QFT, that was by far one of the most horrendous images I've ever seen, that poor animal that had its skin pulled off was still alive and trying to lift its head and stand up! Shocking!

phantom_lord · 06-02-2007 11:47AM

yeah, that was one of the most horrible things I've watched. horrendous for the animal.

brianthebard · 06-02-2007 12:19PM

cormie wrote:

I don't think anyone is fully aware of how the food meat/dairy in our supermarkets has been produced so I think it's right to claim we're all ignorant.

Don't put me in the same group as you, I'm fairly well educated about the meat industry.

Nobody has shown any proof of where every piece of meat in our supermarkets has come from or how the animal has been treated so were left to guess. My guess is that when a whole chicken can be bought for €4 and with the huge supply of milk at cheap prices, that the animals have been treated poorly in some way or another. As Divinkee says, what degree of animal cruelty is acceptable?

It's your guess now is it? A few pages ago it was what is happening in Ireland. Not quite. As I already said before, I don't buy food from sources that I don't know are safe/ethical. It means I only get to eat beef when I go home or get it from the butcher (less than 3-4 times a month) but at least I know where its coming from when I can see the tag number on the wall. I know where the meat is coming from, and each time I go shopping I have to make an ethical choice. Fortunately as more and more people think the same, it becomes easier to make the right choice. Wonder if they all watched PETA videos too?

I'm sure the videos I posted are extreme cases, extreme or not it's proof it goes on. As has been described by Irish people working with Irish agriculture, it's not all green pastures and tlc here either and it sounds like it does go on here to some degree.

I'd like you to show us a video from Ireland then...

I would love it if you posted those videos in the farming section and told them that that's what they are doing to their animals....

I personally don't see any harm in posting the videos. If you care about your food, health and that of animals too, then I think it's advisable to see how some of the foods available to us at some stage in our life may have been treated.

I don't think there's much to argue with in what I just wrote, which is how I intended the first post to be, but obviously didn't word it too well:p

As I already pointed out, we don't import American beef into the EU because of the growth hormones they use to make their cattle bigger. They pen their cattle all year round, feeding them grain. If you think this is the norm in Ireland, or that it happens as a rarity (cause I've never seen or heard of it, from my experience with farming) then you might want to post another video by PETA. Cause you know how much we love it when you give us half assed sources...:rolleyes:

Stabshauptmann · 06-02-2007 12:19PM

cormie wrote:

Listen boss, don't take things so literally, I'm sure when you were sitting in front of The Simpsons watching Mr Fuzzy Bunny go at it with Fluffy bunny, you didn't start to question if you and you siblings were all bunnies. It's the same process. I'm not saying the milk in your coco pops this morning was imported from California, I'm saying, because it's a business, and people want to profit as much as possible, it's probable the same process is taken to fill up all those milk trucks morning after morning.

No its not. Production processes in Ireland are nothing like the US. England maybe a bit more like them but thats irrelevant to those of us who buy Irish.

The aniamals are treated better, their slaughter is regulated better, its a humane and ethical process - one Im not ashamed of.

As for the fur video, I feel a little unwell after watching it. Those anyone who is informed know if there is a reason they dont kill the animal before skinning them?

faceman · 06-02-2007 12:31PM

Kaptain Redeye wrote:

As for the fur video, I feel a little unwell after watching it. Those anyone who is informed know if there is a reason they dont kill the animal before skinning them?

ive been wondering this too. maybe given their methods and tools are barbaric, they dont want to risk getting blood on the fur which will stain. (im assuming their only options for killing the animal would be slitting the throat or banging the head against the ground.

Tar.Aldarion · 06-02-2007 12:58PM

http://www.ciwf.ie/index.html
Irish farming related.

http://www.furisdead.com/feat/ChineseFurFarms/
http://www.cowsarecool.com/otherAnimals.asp
Sick.

cormie · 06-02-2007 02:04PM

I'm not sure if I said it goes on here to the same extent or if I said it probably (a guess) does. Apologies if I said it does without saying it probably does. That was just my uneducated guess.

I'm not saying everyone buys products without knowing where it came from. I'm saying the option to buy such products will be there for most of us at some stage in our life.

Sorry for jumping to the conclusion that most meat/dairy is farmed this way in Ireland. But I'd still hazard a guess that some meat available to us in Ireland is (we can buy chickens for €4 as I said) and that most of us will at some point in our life have meat/dairy on the shelves of places we shop that have been treated poorly.

Brianthebread, yes you do seem fairly well educated on the meat industry, but I still think my statement that we are all ignorant about where every bit of meat available to buy in this country comes from. I'm thinking Tesco Value, Lidl and Aldi in particular.

brianthebard · 06-02-2007 02:17PM

Dude its bard, not bread. ffs. I don't get your name wrong do I cokmie? If you can show me how we are all ignorant then fine go ahead. But most foods will be clearly labelled (eg lamb in Aldi will say it is from New Zealand) and if you have any actual interest in researching this topic then you will be able to find out where your food is coming from. A lot of chicken comes into the country from the Netherlands, and is repackaged and sold as made in Ireland. I know that ok? I've already went out and found this information out for myself! That's why I can say that I am not as ignorant as "all of you".

All foods are traceable in some way, even if it comes down to dockets and such. Don't just assume that other people don't know the stuff that you don't know.

mastermind2005 · 06-02-2007 02:26PM

Sorry to but in but those poor animals, i counldnt watch past the first whack the rackoon got

people will allways eat meat but the animals need to be respected for what there giving specially when there about to die,

some people give out about leather i think at least its not being wasted, but the likes of fur is unbelievable, honestly if i was to find myself watch someone killing a furry anumal for its fur id done for murder.

cormie · 06-02-2007 02:28PM

username thing was a genuine mistake:o

Place of origin doesn't really explain how the animal was treated. With the exception of people like yourself, I'd guess about 95% of people don't have a clue how an animal would have been treated by just seeing what country it came from. Do you actually know the treatment practices of animals in places like New Zealand?

A lot of people don't care either and wont go to a supermarket, check where the meat comes, go home, research the conditions animals are subjected to for a few hours and then go back to buy the meat. But the meat is still bought and sold.

Terry · 06-02-2007 03:15PM

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote:

I think a healthy option would be red meat twice a month, white meat around the same & look to cut pork out altogether. I think theres a good reason whoever wrote the bible decided people shouldnt eat it. Does smell good I must admit.

my take on that is that the people in biblical times just didn't cook the pork properly, got food poisoning and put it down to the fact that it had to do with pigs living in filth. A lack of knowledge relating to bacteria is to blame for all this.

Blush_01 · 06-02-2007 03:56PM

cormie wrote:

[...] with the huge supply of milk at cheap prices, that the animals have been treated poorly in some way or another. As Divinkee says, what degree of animal cruelty is acceptable?

Well if you're trying to inform people against doing something, differentiate between what applies where, won't you? It does make a difference.

As for the dairy thing, huge volumes of milk being supplied at cheap prices isn't wholly correct. A farmer will get paid in or around €1.20 (that's less than IR£1, as most co-ops still give their prices in IR£ and € on statements) per gallon for milk. A gallon is approximately 4.5 litres. That means the farmer gets around 27c per litre for milk. The cheapest I've seen it on sale anywhere is 65c for Strathroy and own-brand milk in places like Dunnes and Tesco, Premier is pretty much flat at 70c for full-fat milk, and prices rise then for skimmed, fortified etc. Avonmore normally retails around 85c/90c, with Supermilk being a pretty much flat 60c for 500ml. This is mainly supermarket based, you can expect to pay up to (I've never seen higher than this, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen) €1.09 for a litre of milk in some convenience stores, with the normal price there sitting at around €1.01/€1.03. While this means that farmers aren't paid very well with regard to the final asking price in the supermarkets, and while large numbers of farmers are leaving dairy farming on an annual basis (at least at home) it's still possible to make a living from Dairy farming, without resorting to the kinds of utter shít posted. I can honestly tell you that there are dairy farmers out there who will call a vet for an animal who may or may not be unwell when they'd tell their own family members to walk it off. Most dairy farmers could milk their animals blindfold because they know them so well and although they are tools of trade, there's a strong attachment to the animals too. Nobody will take on a job that requires 365 days of work per year unless they care about what they're doing.

Something everyone should be aware of...

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