Something everyone should be aware of...

cormie

To start off, here is an intro video: [MAY CAUSE OFFENSE TO SOME VIEWERS]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lfNFCAOytI

Before you make your next shopping list please look at this and stop to think:
<SNIP> Mod edit: Didn't think this one in particular should be have been posted..
cormie says: This was the most informative video I posted, I don't think it should be snipped and censored but it's not up to me so fair enough. If anyone still wants to watch it, it's a very good 9 minute documentary called "The Price of Meat" first result on youtube when searched for. I advise everyone to watch it.

I'm not a vegetarian, the main reason being because I thought there were essential nutrients that could only be found in meat. I've recently learned that we can get everything we need and be even healthier, without eating meat. Therefore killing for survival is no longer necessary. I love meat but I'm willing to try giving up!

My friend has been talking about becoming one and I've been arguing against it saying it's in our nature and everything to eat meat as well as many other points but after learning more and opening up to the idea of change, I now know it's for the best.

It's not just meat either. I've already made the move to Soya milk which I'm glad with from watching previous videos on dairy farming etc and it was extremely easy to do.

This is where the milk we drink every day comes from:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7cGLywGSag

And chicken and eggs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KXZu65HpUA

I'm by no means preaching vegan vegetarianism, I'm neither (yet) but I know it's the best choice for us all to take and hopefully this will open up some more eyes to what really goes on to animals and what really goes into our bodies.

Fast_Mover

Could you please edit in some warning signs/tags, as the videos (esp the 2nd one) may be very disturbing for some viewers!

Dont be at yourself

Here's something for you to thing of, next time you're chomping down on your quorn and tofu burger:

jimmycrackcorm

Why have I a sudden yearning for a Big Mac?

sceptre

They're clearing rainforest in Brazil to grow more soybeans. Damned if you do, screwed if you don't.

Dave!

What about the vegetables, why do they deserve to be eaten?!

Someone pleeeease think of the vegetables

Futureman

cormie wrote:

This is where the milk we drink every day comes from:

I'm pretty sure my milk comes from Ireland, not California - idiot.

And I don't eat battery farmed meat - I get it all fresh from Superquinn, who even have a picture of the farmer and his location above the counter. And my eggs are free range.

I think you're mixing up Ireland with extreme cases of animal abuse in the US, as per your clips - I know it goes on a lot more than we realise, but stop trying to shock people to make your point.

DonkeyStyle \o/

You mean the animals I eat didn't die peacefully of old age?! :eek:
This is truly shocking news.
We must get the word out.

Mossy Monk

god damned hippies

cormie

Fast_Mover wrote:

Could you please edit in some warning signs/tags, as the videos (esp the 2nd one) may be very disturbing for some viewers!

I thought of that alright but this is not to shock anyone, it's just to show what's happening every day.

Futureman, don't call me an idiot. I was referring to the process.

Anyway, I didn't post this to get into a debate on an internet forum. Just to show what's going on. Simple as that, not going to get into any nitpicking here.

Pighead

When Pighead was a pre teen he took a class trip to a slaughter house and saw the nasty people process cattle from live animal to hamburger.

On the bus home I had a really difficult time dealing with the memory of watching those terrified cattle looking out at us as they were killed and then immediatly disected. At that point I swore off all meat.

Unfortunately when I got home Mam had Beefburgers and Bovril on the table, I knew from past experience that if I hadn't eaten my dinner there and then she would have fcuking hammered me.

Chucky the tree

Good videos, still not as entertaining as seeing that pig get his head taken off with a chainsaw though.

ODS

Pighead wrote:

When Pighead was a pre teen he took a class trip to a slaughter house and saw the nasty people process cattle from live animal to hamburger.

On the bus home I had a really difficult time dealing with the memory of watching those terrified cattle looking out at us as they were killed and then immediatly disected. At that point I swore off all meat.

Unfortunately when I got home Mam had Beefburgers and Bovril on the table, I knew from past experience that if I hadn't eaten my dinner there and then she would have fcuking hammered me.

Pighead, either this is de ja vu or youve spoken about such topics in a similar manner before... Is there something your shrink isnt telling us?

jimmycrackcorm

cormie wrote:

I'm by no means preaching vegan vegetarianism, I'm neither (yet) but I know it's the best choice for us all to take

YouTube manages, in a single post, to obliterate the effect of natures development, over thousands of years, of meat tearing incisors. Now we know why it's worth $1.6 billion.

PiE

cormie wrote:

I thought of that alright but this is not to shock anyone, it's just to show what's happening every day.

Whether you set out to shock or not, and since you have given time and effort into educating yourself, do you not think you could put your point across more successfully by listing off the main advantages of becoming vegetarian? While I know we can all go googling and find out for ourselves, very few people will.

If you had done that, rather than using age old PETA shock-video tactics of extreme and probably very isolated animal abuse, I reckon people might be more willing to listen.

BlitzKrieg

hmm


question number 1: What is the first video meant to explain?

that humans can be d*cks?

what relevence does it have to the rest of the post?

Its an attack of the fur industry, something which you will find alot of people will nod in agreement with you.

Dont brush everyone into one big pile...its like calling of vegetarians hippies.

Question number 2

Do you know that the videos you are showing are from PETA and relate (the second and third one) primarily to the American poultry and dairy industries...

Europe in comparison as part of the EU has much stricter policies and laws...it doesnt mean everything is all dixy and rainbow smiles...the animal still dies but its nowhere near the standard of torture (if you will call it that.) shown in the videos.


And finally a very simple question.

Are you trying to get the message across to care about these animals and give up meat for their sake...or because of the practice of the industry?

To be honest if the whole world went vegetarian tomarrow...I will personnally go out and shoot 90% of these animals.

why?

The biggest damage caused by these industries is not the killing of and mistreatment of cows and chickens...but the overbreading of them. So much of the world is used for cattle grazing...a large part of the rainforest has been cut down. So much of the worlds grain produce is used in feeding livestock. The problem here is mankind has interfered already to increase the populations of livestock which if it was to stop right now the world would be even more f*cked.


These industries need to have a right kick in the b*lls...but it shouldnt be from idiots like PETA who think its about saving the cows...its a load of crap. Dont feel guilty eating a burger, feel guilty for what the burger ate before you.

monkeyfudge

When I grow up I want to go to bovine university!

Rb

cormie wrote:

I thought of that alright but this is not to shock anyone, it's just to show what's happening every day.

I know Cormie, but some people don't like to face reality

PiE wrote:

do you not think you could put your point across more successfully by listing off the main advantages of becoming vegetarian?

Because so many people will take in the facts that way, sure Just look at the sheer amount of lard arse Americans, who've been told over and over not to eat certain foods, and certainly not in excess as it will have detrimental effects on their health...yet millions of them still do, every day. Not just Americans, all over the world people shrug off the health warnings attached to the products they consume...so I really don't think listing off facts is the best way of making people aware, and it certainly won't get many to change their habits.

Sure enough, the videos may shock some people, but they should also show people the reality of a lot of situations throughout the world and maybe get people to alter their consumption habits.

The first video was nothing new really, I've been anti-fur for a long, long time now. However, I'm not exactly an active protester, the most I'd probably do would be shake my head disapprovingly at those wearing it. I think the buying of fur is dying down though, a lot of people are becoming more aware of the shít they put the animals through to make it and are realising there is actually no need whatsoever for it to be happening, so hopefully these fur farms will be eradicated some time in the near future.

I'm neither vegan nor vegetarian, I've certainly thought about making the change though. However I love dairy products though I'm reasonably sure that the conditions the cows are farmed in and slaughtered here are a lot better than in the states. The health benefits of not eating dairy may well convince me to make the change sometime in the next few years though, they really speak for themselves.

I eat quite a lot of chicken too, admittedly even KFC the odd time though I'm fully aware of the conditions their chickens are farmed in. I could see myself quitting dairy before I quit chicken though. I suppose one of the reasons would be that I've always considered the products to be highly nutritional (aswell as being lovely tasting), and I've usually quite a high protein based diet and its an extremely easy way of getting in the protein levels that I need. Surely enough I get protein supplements too, but there really is only so many of those shakes I can consume per day.

Going vegetarian may be something I'll do in the next few years, I do a lot of other things which have bad effects on my health that I've to get myself off first though.

Anyway, to those moaning that the videos are designed to "shock" people...of course they are! How else is one supposed to get people to listen?Display the facts?Lol, how often does that work? Look around you, look at all the people smoking cigarettes dispite there being health warnings on each and every packet, look at all the people polluting their livers with alcohol frequently, despite knowing the damage that the alcohol does to their body (and mind), look at all the extremely overweight Americans piling into McDonalds and other fast food places every day, despite being fully aware of the damage that it can do to them...and then filling their fat kids up with the stuff too...very, very few listen to facts, "shocking" footage or a display of reality may well be the only way to hammer home the message, so ease up on Cormie

Nice meeting you the other day btw!

Terry

Let's try and keep the debate here reasoned (yeah, I know. It's AH.).

My take:
I eat meat and i don't feel guilty about it and never will. There is a slaughterhouse 5 minuts walk from my house. It's been there all my life and I've seen the animals kiled there. Still doesn't bother me though.
I like beef and chicken and pork (but not lamb. tastes like crap). Horse is nice too.
Bottom line is, those ****ers would attack you if they had the chance. It's kill or be killed. I've been chased by a herd of cattle on more than one occasion and it taught me two things. Firstly, They might not eat me, but they would have no problem knocking me around a bit and secondly, don't take a short cut home through fields with cattle in them.

Last, but certainly not least, we are omnivores. simple as that.
I don't want to hear the meat supplement arguement because if it were up to a tiger, the tiger would take the meat over the meat supplement. same applies to any other carnivore.

PiE

rb_ie wrote:

words

Ok you missed the point of my post.

PETA style videos do not work. The only people who watch them are people who are already vegan/vegetarian or those who just y'know... like a bit of gore. The vast majority of people will simply turn them off/turn away, because they don't want to see/hear it. Guilt-tripping people isn't gonna work in the long term; guilt fades.

People will listen if you're telling them something that benefits them directly. Obviously not everyone, but I guarantee you that a helluva lot more people would have read a quick, bullet-point breakdown of the main benefits of not eating meat than those who watched the videos all the way through.

Could even have thrown in a JPEG of a fluffy animal for that cuddly effect.

Seth Brundle

Hilary Briss ftw!

Futureman

cormie wrote:

Futureman, don't call me an idiot. I was referring to the process.

Eh, you showed me a video of somewhere in California, and told me that's where all my milk comes from, when it clearly doesn't - that does in fact make you an idiot.

Black Swan

Do plants scream when harvested?

Wibbs

cormie wrote:

I'm not a vegetarian, the main reason being because I thought there were essential nutrients that could only be found in meat. I've recently learned that we can get everything we need and be even healthier, without eating meat.

I've checked this out myself from various sources and found this to be not quite true. While 90% of people should eat far less and better quality meat there are nutrients that are present in meats that either don't exist in the plant world, or if they exist we can't metabolise them, or are present in too small amounts to be useful. Vitamin B12 in plants is not bioavailable. Numerous studies have shown that. Brewers yeast is one that the veggies advocate but in it's natural form contains no bioavailable B12. It has to be fortified artificially. In fact if you eat too much soy products you increase your need for Vit B12, feeding into the cycle. It also isn't too good for iron and zinc absorption.

Vitamin A is another one. While beta carotene is present in plant foods you have to be careful how you mix foods in order for your body to absorb it.

The idea that we would be all much healthier if we were vegetarians seems fine at first glance, but there are many many examples of peoples around the world who exists on an almost entirely meat based diet (inuits, maasai)who suffer few of the maladies of modern life(until they start on western type diets). We evolved by eating meat. We produce hydrochloric acid in the stomach, we have far shorter digestive system than herbivores, we can't even break down cellulose like planteaters. The first stone tools we made were designed to break open bones to extract the marrow. It's not the meat itself that's the problem.

It's not just meat either. I've already made the move to Soya milk which I'm glad with from watching previous videos on dairy farming etc and it was extremely easy to do.

Do you have any idea the damage to the earth because of large scale monoculturing of grains like soya, rice etc. Meat eating doesn't harm the earth to anything like the degree some types of commercial farming does. Endless fields of wheat or soybean, artificially grown is no picnic either. You can't make a shocking youtube vid about that though.

This is where the milk we drink every day comes from:

If you're American.

And chicken and eggs:

Not mine I can tell you.

I'm by no means preaching vegan vegetarianism, I'm neither (yet) but I know it's the best choice for us all to take and hopefully this will open up some more eyes to what really goes on to animals and what really goes into our bodies.

No it's not the best choice and do more research yourself to find out how exactly you'll get a better diet.

Wibbs

Oh yes, PETA are woolly headed hippy idiots.

Terry

Futureman wrote:

Eh, you showed me a video of somewhere in California, and told me that's where all my milk comes from, when it clearly doesn't - that does in fact make you an idiot.

Please read the charter re: personal abuse.
Calling someone an "idiot" falls into that catergory.
You only get one warning and only because you're new here.
Thanks.
Let's keep it civil, folks. After all, we're not animals.

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Do plants scream when harvested?

No. Then again, neither do cows.
Those turkies I killed one christmas didn't scream either. They just crapped themselves and ran around for a few seconds due to nerve impulses. (yes, I was once a turkey plucker).

Futureman

julep wrote:

Please read the charter re: personal abuse.
Calling someone an "idiot" falls into that catergory.
You only get one warning and only because you're new here.
Thanks.

Sorry Julep.

TerrorFirmer

The first video is hardly representing a fair image of a case for veganism. Most people actually disagree with the fur trade, and in the meat industry generally speaking, whilst the animal still dies, it's not like guys go around with big sticks beating them to death in a barbaric fashion.

All that video does is really doing is showcasing the potential for human cruelty and/or indifference to suffering, guess what, it's not just limited to animals, it happens to poor children, men and women everyday on the planet too.

That first video makes me feel ill, really feel for the poor animals - but it won't discourage me to eat meat in the slightest, beacuse by and large that's not a stage in production of meat in most places. Again, yes the animal dies, but that's our nature, we've been eating meat for thousands of years and so have many of the other species on this planet.

It's not really the meat in question here, it's how its prepared, and I think you've fallen victim to that Cormie, usual PETA stuff of associating localised and isolated practices to the entire world as a whole.

Terry

Havok wrote:

All that video does is really doing is showcasing the potential for human cruelty and/or indifference to suffering, guess what, it's not just limited to animals, it happens to poor children, men and women everyday on the planet too.

PETA don't care about people.

Futureman wrote:

Sorry Julep.

No need to apologise. Just read the charter.

Seth Brundle

julep wrote:

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Do plants scream when harvested?

No. Then again, neither do cows.

Is a cow harvester like a combine harvester?

Terry

more like a scythe.

cormie

Futureman wrote:

Eh, you showed me a video of somewhere in California, and told me that's where all my milk comes from, when it clearly doesn't - that does in fact make you an idiot.

Listen boss, don't take things so literally, I'm sure when you were sitting in front of The Simpsons watching Mr Fuzzy Bunny go at it with Fluffy bunny, you didn't start to question if you and you siblings were all bunnies. It's the same process. I'm not saying the milk in your coco pops this morning was imported from California, I'm saying, because it's a business, and people want to profit as much as possible, it's probable the same process is taken to fill up all those milk trucks morning after morning.

The first video was just an intro really.

Anyway, as I've said, I'm just posting these to let people be aware of what goes on. I don't have all the facts, I don't know the extent it goes on over here but when people are in business in such an area, I'm sure they don't tend to care in the first place.

There is a reason a Tesco Value chicken is €4 and the same size chicken that is organically fed and let wander on open pasture is about 4 times the price at about €16. Where do you think that price cut comes from? Mass production I reckon.

This thread isn't about me or my choices and it's not about any of the people who have replied either, I just thought I'd show what does go on.

I think in a society where all the killing, skinning, plucking, gutting and preparation is done for us, out of sight, it's a positive thing to see what actually does go on.

Wibbs, that's interesting about the vitamins, I'm only going on what I've been told so will not dispute any information as I'm not fully aware of the situation.

I also wasn't aware of the soy production industry so thanks for pointing that out.

Most people would probably buy the cheaper, supermarket type meat and I think they should be aware of some of the methods that have been undertaken to get the meat in that shrink wrap presentation and what harm could be present in such meat.

I'm a meat eater don't forget, I love meat too. And yes, it's more the preparation than anything.

As I've said before. I'm sure in the stone age, vegetarians and vegans were unheard of. Animals were loved and nurtured and had to be eaten for our survival. That's nature. Injecting and incubating meat is not natural.

I could go on and on about this topic, but as I said, I only posted for people to see the process of which some of their food goes through before it makes it onto their plate.

beans

On the soy front, perhaps not the best idea to eat a lot of unfermented soy (milk, tofu-esque matter etc).

Some evidence for

- Inhibition of enzymes that aid protein digestion
- Blocking uptake of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and especially zinc
- Inhibiting effect on thyroid

Probably lots of other stuff too. Soy sauce is ok as it's fermented allegedly.

Personally meat = happiness. Would try to source Halal meat in an ideal world as i'm under the impression that it's butchered more humanely and with a bit of craft, rather than just sloppily killed by unskilled workers in factories. This is of course just a perception based on a documentary, but I wouldnt be surprised if there was some truth to it.

Futureman

cormie wrote:

Listen boss, don't take things so literally, I'm sure when you were sitting in front of The Simpsons watching Mr Fuzzy Bunny go at it with Fluffy bunny, you didn't start to question if you and you siblings were all bunnies. It's the same process.

Your analogy is irrelevant. The Simpsons is a cartoon - wasn't your clip of reality? Do you know the difference? Because I do.....so don't suggest I can't tell the difference between a cartoon fluffy bunny, and real clips that you posted of animals getting battered! Bottom line, is you told me THIS is where MY milk comes from....and it was a clip of a ghey farm in California. That was my point - you lied to shock!

Blush_01

OP: while your heart may have been in the right place, you're a bit far off the mark with relation to dairy production (and meat production, although I know very little about the Irish poultry industry) as the industries exist in Ireland.

In the USA dairy farms exist as huge factory farms. They're so big it's almost beyond comprehension. Quite a lot of farms are in areas where the summer is too hot and the winter is too cold for the animals to graze outside, so they're indoors 24/7. Also, the looser regulations mean that the ordinary milk on the shelf in USA supermarkets - by ordinary I mean non-organic - is full of blood, puss, antibiotics, hormones (which are highly illegal here, by the way) etc. There have been cases in the states where milk was recalled because it was found to have penicillin in it - they were alerted to the fact when penicillin allergy sufferers had adverse reactions to the milk. You will NEVER hear of that happening here. NEVER. The regulations surrounding milk production here are prohibitively strict - and rightly so, the product is easily contaminated, easily spoiled and for human consumption. The milk is tested regularly, reports on the values of certain elements in the milk - fat, protein etc. levels are given on a very regular basis. Our milk at home generally goes into milk replacer, cheese and butter production at the local co-op. The quality of the milk dictates the price you're paid for it (within the pay-frame of the company) so it's in the best interests of the farmer to produce the best quality milk which will, understandably, come from the most content animals. Yes, these animals are bred to supply milk. It's their job, so to speak. Yes, they do produce more milk than they would do in the wild - but how many bovines exist in the wild in Ireland? Farming is a vocation, not everyone is suited to it. There are very few dairy farmers who don't care deeply that their herd is satisfied, who don't make sure they get the best fodder and grazing available to them and who will stand by while their (or other) animals are mistreated. In addition, it's illegal to treat an animal in the manner depicted in the videos you posted. If you do so, you can be fined and imprisoned (also rightly so, we should be thankful for what we're getting and not abuse the source of it, don't you think? ) .

With regard to meat and poultry production - if you buy Irish products, the product traceability regulations that Irish producers are subject to will not only tell you which farmer produced your fresh meat, but where (s)he lives - the address is provided on the packet if you get it on a pre-packed tray at the meat section in the supermarket, or if you ask they can tell you at the butcher's counter. Obviously a local butcher will tell you where the meat came from too. I'd be surprised if the farms depicted in your YouTube clips can do that. If you're not happy, you can trace the meat back to the person who raised the animal. That's impressive, don't you think? It also leads to a high level of culpability, which may be missing in other countries.

humanji

Isn't the point that's being ignored that meat is damn tasty?

cormie

Futureman wrote:

Your analogy is irrelevant. The Simpsons is a cartoon - wasn't your clip of reality? Do you know the difference?

No, whether it's a cartoon or not is what is irrelevant. I was comparing the act of reproduction explained in the simpsons to that which you were born by, different characters, same process, same end product. Same with the above videos, different location, same process, same end product.

I said I'm not going to get into nitpicking here, I don't have time to entertain somebody who just wants to kill some boredom by getting into a stupid tiff on an internet message forum.

As you said yourself, the videos are reality so why can't you accept that it's very likely to go on here too? Or are you making all this fuss because I said "This is where the milk we drink every day comes from" instead of saying "This is probably the same process the milk we drink every day comes from"?

Seth Brundle

beans wrote:

Personally meat = happiness. Would try to source Halal meat in an ideal world as i'm under the impression that it's butchered more humanely and with a bit of craft, rather than just sloppily killed by unskilled workers in factories.

I have visited a number of meat foctories (Clonee, Rathdowney...). The animals were stunned and then I believe a bayonet type device pierces their skull killing them instantly whereupn they fall out into the conveyor belt process.
Halal meat (IIRC) in its most brutal form involves the killing of an unstunned animal by cutting their throat (cutting the arteries, oesophagus, trachea, etc) with a swift sharp cut. The dying animal is then left (hanging?) for the blood to drain!

mickith

im gona have nitghtmares of little skinless racoones runnin around the place

that was a hurendous video to watch

definitely put me off buying fur and the likes but dont think i could be a vegatarian

cormie

Blush_01 wrote:

informative post

Well that sounds a bit better anyway, thanks for the info. I'd still be sceptical about them producing more than they naturally should be though.

I'd also still be concerned about where the likes of tesco value chickens and milk come from, which are on the shelves in our supermarkets and eaten by Irish people every day.

Terry

supermarkets can sell at a lower price because of high turnover. simple economics.

ambro25

[broad brush]It's part and parcel of the ongoing decountrification of very late 20th/early 21st century Europe[/broad brush]

A lot of (most?) people have forgotten that to eat meat, you have to kill the meat first. Whilst there are excesses within the meat production industry, thankfully rare and -in the EU at least- extremely quickly investigated and culled, you should not be quick to dismiss a certain amount of automation of the production chain in the name of efficiency, as it contributes to keeping meat prices affordable.

As for turning rabbit because some cow eyelashes have been batted, I believe a lot of kids (not forgetting 20-something kidults) should be made to kill and eat at least one animal early in their early lives to understand once and for all cause and consequences, i.e. not only that you can't eat meat without killing an animal, but also that every action has consequences (and I really believe this second aspect is increasingly relevant, not only to all things food-related).

IMHO, this 'debate' should be linked to the for/against hunting debate, because the basis and the arguments are entirely similar.

r3nu4l

Well I've always been anti-fur and I must say cormie, that first video was absolutely horrifying and disugsting! :eek: I've never been a fan of PETA though so would never applaud them.

Still, I'm going home tonight and cooking a steak dinner, which is thawing right now, and I'll be having a glass of milk with it so no change there. I was vegetarian for a few years as a kid (8-11) but things change...

monkeyfudge

beans wrote:

Would try to source Halal meat in an ideal world as i'm under the impression that it's butchered more humanely and with a bit of craft, rather than just sloppily killed by unskilled workers in factories. This is of course just a perception based on a documentary, but I wouldnt be surprised if there was some truth to it.

I think it's debatable. With Halal the animal isn't stunned before it is slaughtered. So I guess it's up to you to decide if stunning the animal before slitting it's throat is more humane or not.

Any halal places I've tried in Dublin have been super tasty though.

beans

Everything's relative I suppose. I'm sure the cow would rather be left to his cud regardless of being stunned or not.

As it goes, I don't have a problem with fur farming in principle, in the same way as I don't have a problem with using hides for shoes or meat for steaks. I do believe that such a farming industry should be regulated blah blah humane blah etc. Is it? I'm not sure.

event

PETA eh!

pure scum they are, would believe a word that comes from them or their sites

have you ever seen their delightful kids website?

http://www.petakids.com/

Zonko

That's not where the milk I drink comes from. You apparently have some misconceptions.

Edit: Okay, I watched the whole thing (well, maybe half) of the cow one, and saw lots of innaccuracies and half truths. I'm not sure if the people that wrote the script don't entirely understand what they're talking about, or if they're trying to mislead. Although I obviously object to mass farming like that.

Schlemm

About the fur issue, I think it's disgraceful that fur, and even fake fur, is still fashionable. Fur farming is still legal in the republic, even though that the way that some of the animals are reared and slaughtered is questionable. I wouldn't even wear fake fur - it's not a look I would like to advertise.

About the farming.....farming in the USA is very different from farming in Ireland, as many posters have mentioned. Most farmers in Ireland will try to turn the cows out to pasture because it's cheaper to feed them grass. Same goes for beef cattle. Most sheep are turned out to pasture too. Although we have selected our dairy cattle for higher milk yields (and all too often at the expense of fertility and the risk of metabolic problems), the average yield of the average Irish dairy cow (about 4500 L per yr) is nothing near that of the dairy cow in the USA, where they can produce about 10,000 L per year. Their herds have dreadful fertility problems and metabolic problems and the animals have to work extremely hard, to produce milk and calves, and to function normally in metabolic terms. Farmers there use growth hormone to increase milk yield, as well as a cocktail of other hormones to control reproduction. While the ethics of breeding animals which are so unnatural and have so much stress placed on them is definitely questionable, the standards of dairy production in Ireland are not quite as intensive as that in the USA, and less cattle suffer the problems associated with intensive milk production here. The EU has also banned the use of certain hormones, such as estrogen and growth hormone. However, Ireland exports calves for veal production, the standards of which are questionable.

The real issues in farming lie in intensive broiler, egg and pig production. Chickens are reared in cramped conditions and the breeding programmes have led to many physical disorders. The EU has proposed to implement new regulations for the cages of intensively farmed chickens, but some may argue that they are not that different from the current types of cages used.

Having worked on a pig farm, I have seen the conditions that they are reared in. The sows are kept in farrowing crates for 4 weeks until the piglets are weaned. They can only sit and stand and walk a few steps back and forth and they often develop sores and infected legs. There is no bedding and they are housed on slats. Once the piglets are weaned, they are housed on slats until they are slaughtered. The sows are sent back to be serviced, and are housed in stalls that are not unlike farrowing crates. The conditions for farming pigs have been improved somewhat (ie, the sows are no longer tethered), and new EU laws will prevent them from being housed in individual stalls during pregnancy. Again, it is debatable whether the new laws will make much of a difference. But the way pigs are intensively farmed here is tough on the animals. Many develop abcesses from the hard floors and they often have few or no things to dig or play with. Stereotypical behavior in the sows is indicitave of their boredom and frustration.

There does seem to be double standards with regard to attitudes in farming. I find it incredible that there are so many people who object to puppy farms, but would have no problem having a fry up!

One thing I would like to see is that farmers would be allowed to use drugs to humanely euthanise animals. Very often, lambs and piglets, etc. are killed if they will not be economically viable (eg, if they have a serious injury or illness). If you are going to kill an animal by stunning it, you should always bleed it out to be sure, although lots of people will stun the animal without bleeding. Currently only vets can put down animals, but if farmers had access to affordable drugs for this purpose, a lot of suffering could be avoided.

Any slaughterhouse I've been to in this country has been of a very high standard, although any worker I've spoken to about the ritual slaughter of animals has described it as brutal. In cattle, the common carotid arteries are cut, and these arteries are the principal blood supply to the brain. However there is another deeper artery which supplies some blood to the brain which is not cut. The animals are not stunned prior to slaughter. Temple Grandin, an Animal Scientist from the USA, has done some great work in redesigning slaughter houses to make them more humane, and her work is well worth a read for anyone interested in this area.

Although I am not a vegetarian, I am choosy about my meat. Consumers today want cheaper meat, and this is causing farmers to rear animals in more intensive contitions. I think that people should take more of an interest in their meat and I reckon people would pay more for higher quality if they were aware of production standards, particularly in chicken and pigs.

Peta use too many shock tactics and although some of their campaigns are in aid of worthy causes (eg, fur farming), they do not present a balanced view.
www.ciwf.ie or www.ciwf.com (Compassion in World Farming) present a much more balanced view and are worth checking out. They have done some good work here in the republic, such as banning electroimmobilisation of cattle.

RoundyMooney

I've seen these before.

Anyone that believes these videos and anything like them are a true representation of fact, and something "everyone should be aware of" really needs to grow up and go to Bovine University tbh.

PETA are about as impartial as the HM Morris company sponsoring research into the link between tobacco and respiratory disorders.

My milk doesn't come from middle America.

Butt out and let those of us who wish to use our incisors get on with doing so.

brianthebard

Omfg I cannot believe it another peta/animal rights thread. First off OP, your video about milk is bullshi/t, Irish milk is not from America! Have you ever been on an Irish farm? Have you ever seen cattle slaughtered? How about getting some first hand experience of the farming industry here, rather than America, a place that we don't even import beef products from because they have ****ed up the system there so much. How about instead of mindlessly searching youfuckingtube for militant vegetarian propaganda, you find the real facts? God it pisses me off so much when I see people assuming that this is how milk and beef is produced here.

I didn't mention chicken yet. Its not great. Its not terrible, they don't wantonly torture animals here (perhaps rare cases) like those videos often show, but battery hens are living in overcrowded unsanitary situations. So buy free range. Buy organic. Its not that much extra money to so some ethical awareness. But don't post videos from youtube!!!!




edit: ok calmed down a bit now. OP there are serious problems with the methods of production in America, and Ireland isn't completely perfect, but its a damn sight better. There is an awful lot wrong with your post too though. Both need to be addressed if we want to advance on this issue. Firstly, there is absolutely nothing wrong with eating meat imo if you know where its coming from and know that the animal was not mistreated during its life. You don't have that security in modern supermarkets, but you have with local butchers (note McCribbens is not a local butcher, and its meat is deplorable, taste and price wise.) When you trust the means of production, you can trust the product.

As others pointed out, there's a hell of a lot wrong with grain and veg production as well. In my opinion, there's even more wrong with that than meat production. But that's just an opinion. But you don't have to accept those problems. You can choose to source local produce. The farmer's and organic markets are becoming increasingly popular and are selling food produced locally, and with humanity and the environment in mind. Not only are you engaging in Fairtrade (something that should not be confined to third world countries-European food producers get shafted everyday by supermarkets) but along with that, you are taking a stand against excess packaging and carbon/greenhouse emissions that are normally caused by food imported into the country.

cormie

Ok, I'll state again, the purpose of posting this thread was not to turn people into vegetarians, as I've said, I'm not even one myself. It's simple to make people aware of what goes on. Schlemm has given a very valuable contribution to this thread as somebody who has witnessed first hand the conditions in Ireland. They still sound pretty bad to me.

If you know for a fact you have never consumed anything that has been as ill treated as the animals in the videos, then good for you. But I think the majority of us, at some stage, have no idea where our food has come from. Be it cheap supermarket products, imported foods (what about Lidl and Aldi?), and what about all the thousands of people who have holidayed in the USA? It's all well and good to say "that's not where my milk comes from", but it's very likely we have all consumed products previously treated like this.

I don't see anything wrong with increasing awareness of what goes on and I don't understand why people are getting so defensive either.