Something everyone should be aware of...

Capt'n Midnight · 03-02-2007 02:27AM

DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote:

You mean the animals I eat didn't die peacefully of old age?! :eek:
This is truly shocking news.
We must get the word out.

Of course not.
They have been bread to want to be eaten, and the major problem in the meat industry is how to prevent them comiting suicide ahead of schedule.

cf. Ameglian Major Cow

Terry · 03-02-2007 02:53AM

cormie wrote:

I don't see anything wrong with increasing awareness of what goes on and I don't understand why people are getting so defensive either.

peple are getting defensive because you posted biased videos from PETA, who are a completely biased organisation.
Were you to post unbiased and non-shock tactic videos, then people might take you a bit more seriously.

My take on this is, while I love meat, I feel that animals should only be killed if they are going to be eaten. i don't like that people hunt animals for sport. I find it pointless and they could probably spent their time doing something more constructive, but some folks still do it and they are not going to listen to me.
At the end of the day, we need meat to survive, despite what the vegetarians might say. We are naturally omnivores and no hippy is going to change my mind on that.
At the end of the day, meat is NOT murder. it's par of the human diet and is there for sustinence. We are top of the food chain because we can control our actions and kill animals for fodd if we are hungry. Yes, we could decide not to kill those animals, but then we would be denying ourselves of the nutrition that is neccessary for our survival.
Take your meat supplements and use them as suppositories. I'll continue to eat meat, enjoy it and not feel guilty because some animal has been killed to satisfy my needs.
Choosing a vegatarian/ vegan lifestyle is denying your natural human needs and , in my opinion, you are only fooling yourself.

opposible thumbs for the win.

MooseJam · 03-02-2007 03:21AM

julep wrote:

At the end of the day, we need meat to survive, despite what the vegetarians might say.

hence all the vegetarians dieing left right and center

Terry · 03-02-2007 03:42AM

along with all the meat eaters, who are killing themselves by raisig their cholesterol.

I'm still going to go with the evolutionary process that has made me an omnivore.
vegatarianism is just like a religion. It teaches people that certain things are wrong and uses scare tactics to perpetuate these myths.

The human race has flourished over millions of years through eating meat. It is the natural way.
Again I'll use the animal analogy. Are you going to look down on hippos because they eat zebras? No, because it is essential to their survival to eat meat. Are you going to go and feed them meat supplements to stop them from eating other wild animals?
Just deal with it. We eat meat because it is good for us and it keeps us alive.
In regards to the person who said all children should be shown how animals are killed so that it gives them a realistic view on things, I've killed animals for food and it didn't change my view. I still eat them andwill continue to do so.

InFront · 03-02-2007 03:46AM

julep wrote:

we need meat to survive

No we don't... we need NCHO in our diet, and minerals and essential vitamins. All of these can be found outside of meat.

Terry · 03-02-2007 03:54AM

InFront wrote:

No we don't... we need NCHO in our diet, and minerals and essential vitamins. All of these can be found outside of meat.

yeah, but they taste like crap.

anyway, resident muslim dude (well, the only one who regularly posts in AH), would you care to tell us about the halal meat process?
It came up a few pages back.
make haste. it's 5 to back up.

InFront · 03-02-2007 03:59AM

Meat is pretty much N, C, H, O, not exactly crap
As for Halal, this could be your best friend!

Wibbs · 03-02-2007 04:59PM

InFront wrote:

No we don't... we need NCHO in our diet, and minerals and essential vitamins. All of these can be found outside of meat.

We don't need meat to survive as humans are omnivores and thus can survive without meat. I would suggest we need some animal products in our diet to thrive. So milk eggs etc plus a well balanced veggie diet should cover you. Iron and B12 are the two biggies. While iron is found in various leafy vegetables it is not as bioavailable as the iron in meat. B12 is not found in veg and has to be added.

Another factor in this is the quality and the type of veg and meat in the diet. When you look at the inuit diet it's radically different to the type of meat we eat. They eat more of the animal, not just the lean portions. They eat the fat, the marrow, brains, sinew etc. Much like our ancestors, at least if you're European. the ancient european diet was very high in animal products, judging from the bone isotope ratios. indeed very close to wolf in levels. The inuit eat largely wild seafood so they get huge doses of healthy fats. the fact is that no matter where you hail from all our ancestors* diets figured meat in the diet. We evolved to process meat. Large canines and stronger stomach acids reduced as we developed tools and fire to render the meat easier to digest.

The grains and seeds that we eat today are a recent thing by comparison. grains and seeds by definition are not very digestible. If anything they've evolved to pass through the gut of any animal that eats them as a method of spreading seed. You generally have to grind and cook them. they need far more processing than meat. we can't even process cellulose ffs. Another nail in the coffin for the mad vegan PETA types. Another interesting aside, when we were hunter gatherer types eating wild meat and plants in season we were taller with higher bone densities, far less dental decay and arthritis compared to the farmers that replaced that lifestyle.

Some would argue that the fruit and veg we eat is in many cases lower quality than would appear. There was some doctor bloke in Galway a while back, whose name escapes who tested oranges from various shops and found that the amount of vit C was very low

MooseJam wrote:

hence all the vegetarians dieing left right and center

Studies have found that veggie types(esp. vegans) tend to follow a more healthy lifestyle anyway. They are more likely to be non smokers and take more exercise. That skews the stats. In any event while mortality from heart disease and stroke are reduced in vegans, overall mortality has shown to be higher in some studies.(read that in New scientist I did)

Oh did I mention that PETA are idiots. sorry if I said that already.

*human populations do vary though and micro evolution in diet does seem to occur. People from India can have difficulty processing lactose as it's not found in high amounts in the diet. Some oriental populations don't break down alcohol as easy as Europeans**. The irish have a high proportion of coeliacs, the theory being that potato starch(gluten free) replaced the grains found in other populations. Fascinatin' stuff altogether. We're a grand oul species.

** This doesn't seem to hold true for the Japanese though in my experience. Sheesh the head on me after trying to keep up with a bunch of them. Ouch.

Capt'n Midnight · 03-02-2007 06:04PM

julep wrote:

The human race has flourished over millions of years through eating meat. It is the natural way.
Again I'll use the animal analogy. Are you going to look down on hippos because they eat zebras? No, because it is essential to their survival to eat meat. Are you going to go and feed them meat supplements to stop them from eating other wild animals?

I've heard of hippos in captivity eating monkeys but not a whole zebra.

If you look at hunter/gatherers it's the women going out collecting berries and nuts that provide most of the nutrition and calories for the tribe.

Today we have adequate sources of protein such that we don't need to eat meat to survive. Also for most of recorded history meat was a luxury few could afford. Only the rich could have meat daily. Even today in the third world many survive primarily on vetetables because they can't afford otherwise.

most omnivores are oppertunistic
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4489792.stm Russian squirrel pack 'kills dog'

Peteee · 03-02-2007 07:44PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtWBuv9imxs

Dont kid yourself, if a cow had the chance he'd eat you and all the people you care about

Wibbs · 03-02-2007 08:21PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

I've heard of hippos in captivity eating monkeys but not a whole zebra.

TBH I thought they were herbivores. Vicious bastids but veggies

If you look at hunter/gatherers it's the women going out collecting berries and nuts that provide most of the nutrition and calories for the tribe.

Not true. The food gathering is shared relatively equally and men will go for berries etc nearly as often.

Today we have adequate sources of protein such that we don't need to eat meat to survive.

It's the type of protein and nutrients in general that's at issue. One example is conjugated linoleic acid an important fatty acid which is only found in the meat of cows and other ruminants. Forget soya products as well they bring their own issues. It's a complete protein but has none of the vitamins B12 A or D found in meat. Fermented is OK but not non fermented.

Also for most of recorded history meat was a luxury few could afford.

and the poor in such societies were shorter, generally less muscular and lived much shorter lives. In the early medieval period the rich are easy to recognise because of their stature and robustness.

Even today in the third world many survive primarily on vetetables because they can't afford otherwise.

Yes they survive, they do not thrive.

InFront · 03-02-2007 08:32PM

Wibbs wrote:

It's the type of protein and nutrients in general that's at issue. One example is conjugated linoleic acid an important fatty acid which is only found in the meat of cows and other ruminants. Forget soya products as well they bring their own issues. It's a complete protein but has none of the vitamins B12 A or D found in meat.

Lets not get mixed up between meat and other animal products here. CLA, b12, Vits A and D are not exclusively found in meat. Even CLA is something you can synthesise from sunflowers. The point is mostly theoretical, but meat is by no means necessary to survive, or to thrive.

Elessar · 03-02-2007 10:45PM

Peteee wrote:

Dont kid yourself, if a cow had the chance he'd eat you and all the people you care about

This man knows the truth.

Also, if I posted a video about how beneficial it would be to the planet if you jumped off a cliff, would you jump off a cliff?

Terry · 04-02-2007 03:25PM

InFront wrote:

Meat is pretty much N, C, H, O, not exactly crap
As for Halal, this could be your best friend!

Apologies if i offended you in any way. My question did come across in quite a blunt fashion.
I actually wanted to hear about halal meat from a muslim person, as opposed to searching google. I could check wikipedia, but again, i would prefer to about it from a muslim. The thing about wikipedia is that anyone could have written the article, and while it may be factual (or not), the information would be better recieved from someone of the muslim faith. Also, if there are any jewish people reading this, I'd like to hear about kosher food.

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Today we have adequate sources of protein such that we don't need to eat meat to survive. Also for most of recorded history meat was a luxury few could afford. Only the rich could have meat daily. Even today in the third world many survive primarily on vetetables because they can't afford otherwise.

Recorded history only really covers the last 2 or 3 thousand years. That's quite a short time in the entire history of the human race and most of the early stuff contains mythical type stories. I don't think you can judge the entire evolution of the human race based on recorded history.

As for the hippo, there was an article in a paper the other day about a wildlife expert who caught a hippo eating a zebra on film. it's a rare occurence, but it does happen and this was the first time it had been causght on film. I think it was for a show on the national geographic channel.

Seth Brundle · 04-02-2007 03:47PM

Hippo eats zebra... (from a reliable source

)
Hippos aren't all bad!!!

Still IIRC hippos kill more humans than any other large animal in Africa (mosquitos kill more but they AFAIK aren't large!).

Terry · 04-02-2007 04:30PM

I only really used the hippo analogy because it was fresh in my mind. I could just have said tiger or lion or something.
anyway, there it is in full coluor (and black and white). I know it's the sun, but I doubt they would go the great lengths to fake that particular story.

Divinkee · 04-02-2007 05:33PM

Here are my views on the topic.

Whether or not the Irish agriculture/meat industry is better or not than the American one in terms of less suffering to animals and the environment you have to ask yourself to what degree is it necessary and when can you it is not ok and not acceptable.

For eg. If the animals don't suffer lifelong, needless, intense pain and sadness as shown in the videos cormie posted, but let's say, only suffered 1/3 as much for 1/2 the time only, is it then ok that we promote these practices by continuing meat eating/fur buying etc? Where do we draw the line and say "This practice is acceptable but that one isn't" Should we just hope that the practices in Ireland are completely different without finding any information out for ourselves and continue to promote suffering and death to animals by continuing to eat meat? That's a question we should all ask ourselves at the very least and come up with out own answer. Cause one thing is certain - the billion dollar meat industry will not start showing us footage or facts voluntarily about the welfare of animals bred for human means.

IMO, Any degree of animal suffering and mistreatment is unacceptable and wrong in nearly 100% of the cases. You could argue that if you were abandoned in the artic, it would be ok/excusable to kill an animal to prevent starving to death and to attain its fur rather than die from hypothermia.

Even if animals were all treated with great respect i.e fed well, received care from the humans who "look after" them, the newborn were kept with their mothers, the cows were not over milked and fed hormones to produce unnatural amounts of milk at their great expense etc, and then killed in a painless way where they also had no idea that death was about to befall them (and therefore had no dread or anxiety of the upcoming event etc) I would still be ethically against their killing and remain the vegetarian that I am. I respect the lives themselves of animals and want them to lead as happy, natural lives as possible.

Why, if the animals were so lovingly and well treated would someone want this happy existence to end and accept their death as ok merely because they like the taste of their flesh? Some people would say it is ok cause they never suffered and led happy lives. The opposite can be argued about the animals living in disgusting conditions in captivity and leading painful, intensely sad lives. One could say that it is "good" to eventually kill them to relief them from such prolonged torture and hardship. If I was one of these poor animals, watching my brothers and parents die slowly in front of me, develop abnormalities and living in squalid disgusting conditions, I would welcome the end.

I am glad cormie posted those videos cause they offer us a small glimpse of the truth and the greatly sad reality as I see it that goes on in the meat industry. I think one of the worst things about the meat industy and things associated with it is that people generally have no idea at all what's going on- they are complately ignorant and clueless about what is actually taking place behind the scenes and away from the plate in front of us at dinner time. This is unnaceptable IMO and is all down to money at the end of the day, with lots of corruption involved also. People owe it to themselves at the very least to become informed and then make ethical and practical choices about their lives. People are entitled to make choices but without any information it's hard to make good ones in general.

I only recently switched to becoming vegetarian by the way. I was pondering for about 1 month to do so and when I saw those videos, and leared more by searching the internet, I decided to make the change and not promote what goes on anymore. Beforehand I was one of those people I mentioned above - I was pretty much totally oblivious to the truths and had a hazy picture in my head that animals were grazing on a field and never even thought about who they were killed. I never wanted to know really. I just lived in some distant hope and never thought much about it. Now I know alot more and am very glad.

To anyone interested in learning more about health visit this link. There are a number of videos from the world health exposition 2006. Very inofrmative - http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/vegsource_tv.htm

This link is to a non profit organisation about vegetariansim - http://www.vrg.org/index.htm

Here's another similar one - http://www.tryveg.com/cfi/toc/

Here is a non profit organisation about veganism - http://www.vegan.org/

All the best

BigRedClown

Pet · 04-02-2007 05:34PM

As for turning rabbit because some cow eyelashes have been batted, I believe a lot of kids (not forgetting 20-something kidults) should be made to kill and eat at least one animal early in their early lives to understand once and for all cause and consequences, i.e. not only that you can't eat meat without killing an animal, but also that every action has consequences (and I really believe this second aspect is increasingly relevant, not only to all things food-related).

You know, that's a good point. Most people are completely removed from the process that brings meat from the animal to their table. They don't learn and they don't want to. It really would do our consumerist society some good if everyone had to kill an animal for food as part of their teenage years or whatever.

On another point, I was vegetarian for a while, but it wasn't because I was opposed to the idea of killing an animal for food. That's the natural way. What I objected to was the conditions they were kept in before they were killed. This is something that anti-vegetarians miss, all the time.

If an animal leads a happy, relaxed life, and dies humanely, I have no problem with eating it. But if it suffers from the day it is born, I don't want to touch it. Not just out of moral objection, but the meat will be less nutritious, and will probably contain lots of adrenaline (from the animal's own fear/stress), which won't do me any good either.

InFront · 04-02-2007 06:33PM

julep wrote:

Apologies if i offended you in any way. My question did come across in quite a blunt fashion.
I actually wanted to hear about halal meat from a muslim person, as opposed to searching google. I could check wikipedia, but again, i would prefer to about it from a muslim. The thing about wikipedia is that anyone could have written the article, and while it may be factual (or not), the information would be better recieved from someone of the muslim faith. Also, if there are any jewish people reading this, I'd like to hear about kosher food.

Oh right, sorry didn't know you were serious. Halal is the opposite of haram, haram meaning banned. Examples of haram foods are alcohol and other intoxicants, carnivorous animals, pork, animal fats (e.g. margarine), blood and animals that haven't been killed in Allah's name and according to his methods, or animals that are dead of natural causes.
It's not really a problem getting Halal food in Dublin anymore, and there are plenty of restuarants that are Halal as well. I'm not sure how most Muslims living in rurual areas manage Halal, I know some factories sell Halal directly to customers in rural areas, but otherwise I would guess that a lot of Muslims remain largely vegetarian or maybe don't observe Halal at all.

There's a trustworthy link at the top of this page from the IFI website, which explains Halal food very clearly.

Terry · 04-02-2007 07:16PM

thank you.

phantom_lord · 05-02-2007 03:06AM

It's not just meat either. I've already made the move to Soya milk which I'm glad with from watching previous videos on dairy farming etc and it was extremely easy to do.

This is where the milk we drink every day comes from:

You gave up dairy products because video's similar to the second one??? c'mon.

I didn't read the rest of the thread, cause frankly I'm far too lazy to bother...

I_and_I · 05-02-2007 03:38AM

You know when we started eating meat we most likely used either our bare hands or rocks and sticks to batter our prey to death.... (when not scavenging). Things have gotten slightly better for the animals at least. Why should people protest at humans eating meat when there are lions out there everday slaughtering innocent zebra and the like. Bottom line is meat is part of the human diet and thats not likely to change. Personally I would die before removing meat from my diet.

Tar.Aldarion · 05-02-2007 12:27PM

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion, but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

phantom_lord · 05-02-2007 01:08PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion, but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

I'd imagine being 104 gives you a much more open mind than his....

Tar.Aldarion · 05-02-2007 01:25PM

Exactly. Hard getting into teh NSPC too, but I managed it.

Wibbs · 05-02-2007 01:31PM

InFront wrote:

Lets not get mixed up between meat and other animal products here.

Agreed that's why I included milk and eggs in this. It's more the vegan diet that is far from the "healthy" choice some would have you believe. Personally I feel we eat far too much meat, especially cured meats and other unhealthy meats. Extremes in anything are a bit silly. Though given the choice between a pure vegan diet and a pure (good)meat based Inuit type diet I would go for the latter from the point of health. Sadly quality beluga whale blubber is soooooo hard to get these days(huge source of vit c strangely).

CLA, b12, Vits A and D are not exclusively found in meat.

CLA is only found in meat, specifically ruminant animals meat. Vit B12 of the kind that is bioavailable by humans is only found in animal products. While analogues of vit B12 are found in some plant foods(seaweeds/soya) they're useless to us. Study after study of vegans show B12 deficiencies. This type of diet is also very bad for children. http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

Even CLA is something you can synthesise from sunflowers.

It can be synthesised from sunflowers, but it's far easier getting it the "natural"* way. Also there are other compounds found in the complete food that can help absorption.

Divinkee wrote:

IMO, Any degree of animal suffering and mistreatment is unacceptable and wrong in nearly 100% of the cases.

Any degree? Plastic sandals ahoy.

You could argue that if you were abandoned in the artic, it would be ok/excusable to kill an animal to prevent starving to death and to attain its fur rather than die from hypothermia.

Trust me there would be no argument from me I assure you. Wouldn't even enter my head in such a situation. If it did, you wouldn't live long.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion,

Ouch. Get her an all that.

but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

Steady on, eat him? have you been properly introduced? In any case human flesh is pork like and a tad salty apparently. Not appetising at all.

phantom_lord wrote:

I'd imagine being 104 gives you a much more open mind than his....

Well if it's any help to Tar.Aldarion two great uncles of mine(92/97 respectively) enjoy a hearty fry up a few times a week. I must ask their opinion.
*BTW when I say natural, I'm not one of these idiotic hippies that thinks everything "natural" is good and everything "man made" is bad M'kay.

brianthebard · 05-02-2007 01:45PM

Wibbs wrote:

Agreed that's why I included milk and eggs in this. It's more the vegan diet that is far from the "healthy" choice some would have you believe. Personally I feel we eat far too much meat, especially cured meats and other unhealthy meats.

What constitutes unhealthy meats? and why do you include cured meats in that category?

Stark · 05-02-2007 04:04PM

cormie wrote:

Before you make your next shopping list please look at this and stop to think

I was thinking the other day about all the interesting meals I could make without using meat and how it would be cheaper and healthier too. Now I just have a craving for steak.

I_and_I · 05-02-2007 04:18PM

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

You are only 18 yet so it not odd that you have such an opinion, but if this death occurs.
I may very well eat you.

Yes and its probably why I can't make sense of your eloquently worded post.

Joseph · 05-02-2007 05:03PM

http://animalcruelty.tk/

Something everyone should be aware of...

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