Some people on here make me want to vomit out of my eyes.

herbieflowers · 01-02-2007 07:11PM

I thought the decline of the language was due to it becoming redundant. Jobs, progress, were all associatedwith the English language...or am I misguided? Nationalists - guide me!

Peteee · 01-02-2007 07:13PM

Technically it's theirs!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_history wrote:

"The first known human settlement in Ireland began around 8000 BC, when hunter-gatherers arrived from Britain and continental Europe, probably via a land bridge."

I think thats the kind of quote which would make the OP 'vomit out of his eyes'. It sums up the attitude I was speaking of in my post i.e. 'who gives a toss about the north'. sickening.

That's not sickening

The Rwandan Genocide was the extermination of at least 500,000 ethnic Tutsis and thousands of moderate Hutus in Rwanda,[1] mostly carried out by two extremist Hutu militia groups, the Interahamwe and the Impuzamugambi, during a period of about 100 days from April 6 through mid-July 1994. Other reports estimate the number of victims between 800,000 and 1,071,000

The Rwandan Genocide stands out as significant, not only because of the sheer number of people massacred in such a short period of time, but also because of United Nations's (UN) inadequate response.

The world not giving a toss about the above. That's sickening. Get your priorities straight

Hobbes · 01-02-2007 07:16PM

dlofnep wrote:

...

La mondo turnas.

Red Hand · 01-02-2007 07:21PM

dlofnep wrote:

The same way Scotland moved out? Scotland has a similar history to Ireland. Even Wales. And who said we wanted to be apart of the Commonwealth. I wouldn't subject myself to being associated with anything to do with a nation of Imperialists.

Australia was founded as a criminal colony. Canada spent years in bloodshed in the civil wars. Hardly a good example.

On that note, I've got to logoff for now. Slán!

Scotland did not have the huge Home Rule movement in the late 19th centuary and early 20th centuaries as much of Ireland had, which was a similiar route that Australia and Canada used to eventually become countries rather than colonies (ie have seperate parliaments etc). I'm not exactly sure if Scotland wanted to break away from Britain at that particular time.

I'm aware that Australia started as a criminal colony. Not sure what your point is as regards that fact.

What I'm saying is that Australia become an independent country by peaceful means. There is an argument that Ireland could have done much the same thing by gradual disassociation, without so much bloodshed in the early 20th centuary.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 07:21PM

herbieflowers wrote:

I thought the decline of the language was due to it becoming redundant. Jobs, progress, were all associatedwith the English language...or am I misguided? Nationalists - guide me!

I can assure you, it was because of Britain. They implemented the National school system which banned gaeilge from being taught until about 1870 (around that time, can't remember the exact date).. It was at this time that the language was fading. It was already fading because of the penal laws, and more english integration into Ireland.

Peteee - What happened in Rwanda was terrible. I agree with you. But it's another reason why what happens in the past must be remembered.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 07:24PM

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

Scotland did not have the huge Home Rule movement in the late 19th centuary and early 20th centuaries as much of Ireland had, which was a similiar route that Australia and Canada used to eventually become countries rather than colonies (ie have seperate parliaments etc). I'm not exactly sure if Scotland wanted to break away from Britain at that particular time.

I'm aware that Australia started as a criminal colony. Not sure what your point is as regards that fact.

What I'm saying is that Australia become an independent country by peaceful means. There is an argument that Ireland could have done much the same thing by gradual disassociation, without so much bloodshed in the early 20th centuary.

Scotland still to this day has activists opposing British rule. Not on the same scale as Ireland, but it's always been a reality.

Australia wasn't subject to the same mistreatment that Ireland was, making it easier to work under Britain. Do you really believe that Irish people would of stood by while they were subject to what happened to them and that everything would be just swell? Maybe in fairy tales.

Ok, I've really gotta go nice. Been fun chatting. Take care!

csk · 01-02-2007 07:27PM

dlofnep I commend you on your post, I haven't got the time to shift through all the morbid bullsh!t that some people are trying to pass as historical fact but the mere fact that almost every rebuttal to what you stated has been cliche ridden really just goes to prove your point.

Just before I go I'll say two things, firstly the Republic of Ireland won it's Independence in 1922 there is absolutely no concrete evidence to suggest we would have gotten Independence peacefully at a later stage. Any suggestion otherwise is counter factual bullsh!t.

Secondly the island has been divided since 1691. Before that all "invaders" (and I use that term lightly) were assimilated into the Native population. The whole planter vs Gael conflict came about because the planters wished to crystallise that divide to ensure their absolute power.

Now personally I see the whole planter vs Gael issue as redundant to a large extent and I would view everyone born on this island as Irish. But there you go it happened and was still happening right up to the end of the last century.

nesf · 01-02-2007 07:33PM

dlofnep wrote:

Gabh mo leithscéal.. It's not my fault our educational system is dire, but I'm self studying to remedy that. I posted my interest in the gaeilge forum a while back if you doubt it. I blame the British national school system that they implemented for all of our lack of gaeilge. You should too, because it is truly why we do not speak it.

Ah, hijacking our national language in the name of republicanism I see. Popular thing that nowadays.

Red Hand · 01-02-2007 07:40PM

dlofnep wrote:

Scotland still to this day has activists opposing British rule. Not on the same scale as Ireland, but it's always been a reality.

Australia wasn't subject to the same mistreatment that Ireland was, making it easier to work under Britain. Do you really believe that Irish people would of stood by while they were subject to what happened to them and that everything would be just swell? Maybe in fairy tales. Ok, I've really gotta go nice. Been fun chatting. Take care!

Irish people didn't stand by and let things just happen to them. That was the whole point of the Home Rule movement. It's ultimate aim was to have Ireland look after it's own affairs.

It lacks the romance of breaking free by violent means, sure, but peaceful dissociation seems the better option to me.

By the way, the conflict commonly called the War of Indepenence gave us a State that wasn't much better than a Home Rule state. Ireland only became a Republic in, what? 1947? So there was a couple of years of bloodshed and Ireland still ended up with a situation where we weren't fully indepenent?

Ireland was still in the Commonwealth, yeah?

Red Hand · 01-02-2007 07:45PM

csk wrote:

Just before I go I'll say two things, firstly the Republic of Ireland won it's Independence in 1922 there is absolutely no concrete evidence to suggest we would have gotten Independence peacefully at a later stage. Any suggestion otherwise is counter factual bullsh!t.

It is a fact that Ireland did not become a Republic in 1922. Or am I bull****ting?

Dave! · 01-02-2007 07:54PM

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

It is a fact that Ireland did not become a Republic in 1922. Or am I bull****ting?

It became a dominion of the commonwealth in 1922 if I remember correctly.... I think it only became a Republic in 1937 or thereabouts.

(someone will no doubt correct me!)

Zonko · 01-02-2007 07:59PM

InFront wrote:

Now the democratic majority of one province, including many of those whose ancestors would have been the displaced landowners, want to remain in that union. March all you want, democracy is very simple.

First, it's not the majority of the province, it's the majority of the north alone. I think the fact that a state created to have the largest unionist majority possible now only having a slight unionist majority speaks volumes.

CiaranC wrote:

I think it was right about the time when the supposedly oppressed disenfranchised minority started slaughtering innocent children and pregrant women out doing their shopping that people started losing interest in the cause.

Read a book on Irish history through out the entire 20th century. The south turned a blind eye to the north very early on. The Provisional IRA campaigns which involved civilians being injured are obviously very unpopular, not to mention the reactionary secterian killings by them between 1974 and 1976, then proxy bombs in the early '90s.
Yes, the PIRA (and the RIRA!) did some really horrible things, but that's not why people have turned a blind eye, and you know it.

Peteee wrote:

Technically it's theirs!
[Mention of rewanda genocide]
The world not giving a toss about the above. That's sickening. Get your priorities straight

Ever read about the great hunger?

Nevyn · 01-02-2007 08:03PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland

On 29 December 1937 a new constitution, the Constitution of Ireland, came into force. It replaced the Irish Free State by a new state called simply "Ireland". Though this state's constitutional structures provided for a President of Ireland instead of a king, it was not technically a republic; the principal key role possessed by a head of state, that of symbolically representing the state internationally remained vested, in statute law, in the King as an organ. On 21 December 1948 the Republic of Ireland Act declared a republic, with the functions previously given to the Governor-General acting on the behalf of the King given instead to the President of Ireland.

The Irish state had remained a member of the then-British Commonwealth after independence until the declaration of a republic on 18 April 1949. Under Commonwealth rules declaration of a republic automatically terminated membership of the association; since a reapplication for membership was not made, Ireland consequently ceased to be a member.

The 1916 declaration declared Ireland to be a republic but it did not happen until a lot later.

Steyr · 01-02-2007 08:06PM

Im sorry i fell asleep there..:rolleyes:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 01-02-2007 08:16PM

I've said it before and I'll say it again. I was born an individual and I'll die an individual. Just because the later happened to happen on this here rock does NOT mean I have to adopt some prefined crap that passes for culture and I do not have to respect some alleged freefom-firghting crap that happened without my vote.

If it's freedom you and yours fought for, then I've got the freedom to write, think, say what I like and you've got to sit there and at least respect it, OP, or acknowledge that you don't like the idea of freedom in the first place.

Crucifix · 01-02-2007 08:25PM

Hobbes wrote:

La mondo turnas.

"The clean one you alternate"?

stepbar · 01-02-2007 08:34PM

Is all this a cloaked responce against policing in the North? Me thinks it is OP. Even if the British Government said sorry for their 800 years of oppression, what use would it be to us now? Would anybody except the media give a ****?

LundiMardi · 01-02-2007 09:03PM

can someone please change the record? This one's quite tedious at this stage.

Up the brits!!! *waves union jack*

Saruman · 01-02-2007 09:40PM

dlofnep wrote:

It also doesn't change the fact that it was colonised in an unjust manner,

Firstly i will again say.... get over it!!!
Secondly... The english just did what others had done before... Need a history reminder? The Vikings, the Celts, The Normans etc etc etc etc. The people you refer to as Irish before the English invasion were a product of centuries of colonisation by other "unjust invaders" (as you call the English).

The English themselves were colonized by the Romans! I mean everyone was doing it in those days!!!
That was then, this is now.
You did not pick a country before you crawled out of your mothers womb!! You had no say in the matter... luck of the draw made you born on this island. Nothing more... Stop dwelling on a past that in no way whatsoever affects you now.

Since you seem to revere Brian Boru so much, seeing him as some kind of legitimate Ruler of Ireland and that the English toppled his kingdom and took his nation... well I do not think Brian Boru was not elected. Im sure the people he and his armies butchered and raped while he conquered each province did not think he was a great and just man and the rightful ruler of this island. He was no different than the English. Perhaps he slaughtered an ancestor of yours.

I just can not understand how someone who never witnessed, never experienced, never in any way was affected by an invasion 800 years ago can get so worked up over something, especially when its over.

So again i say.... get over it!! Move on. Every country was invaded at some time by some other country in the past. Its how the world was made up. It still happens to a lesser degree today.
Stop living in a past of hatred, nothing good can ever come of it.

Oh and by the way... dont ever tell someone they have no values if they do not agree with you! If everyone held the values you hold dear... we would all be Union Jack burning Terrorists!! There are enough of them in the middle east, we do not need that type here. Whats the point of hating the British of today, who did not rape and pillage our country... probably do not even know most of what went on hundreds of years ago and quite frankly do not care.
I have values.. just not hate mongering ones like you. I tend to take people at face value and for who they are as individuals... not what some of their ancesters did centuries ago. Just like i do not categorise say... all Nigerians as scam artists because some of them do it in Nigeria.

Sarky · 01-02-2007 09:50PM

I speak fluent Ogham, you know. That makes me the most Irish.

*smug*

RasTa · 01-02-2007 09:54PM

Saruman wrote:

Oh and by the way... dont ever tell someone they have no values if they do not agree with you! If everyone held the values you hold dear... we would all be Union Jack burning Terrorists!! There are enough of them in the middle east, we do not need that type here. Whats the point of hating the British of today, who did not rape and pillage our country... probably do not even know most of what went on hundreds of years ago and quite frankly do not care.
I have values.. just not hate mongering ones like you. I tend to take people at face value and for who they are as individuals... not what some of their ancesters did centuries ago. Just like i do not categorise say... all Nigerians as scam artists because some of them do it in Nigeria.

Here Here
Huzzah!!!

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 10:00PM

csk wrote:

dlofnep I commend you on your post, I haven't got the time to shift through all the morbid bullsh!t that some people are trying to pass as historical fact but the mere fact that almost every rebuttal to what you stated has been cliche ridden really just goes to prove your point.

Thanks, appreciated!

nesf wrote:

Ah, hijacking our national language in the name of republicanism I see. Popular thing that nowadays.

Could you be anymore cliché? It was in response to a post in the same context. I wouldn't call uttering a few words in my native tongue "hijacking a language for republicanism".

Firstly i will again say.... get over it!!!

How persuasive you are. I think I'll go run for parliment in Westminister! Sorry, but your overuse of exclamation marks lends me to believe my adoration for my country angers you. Is that it.. Are you angry? Why don't you get over the fact I have a passion about something you do not. If you're expecting an apology out of me for refusing to forget horrible atrocities to out fellow people you've another thing coming.

Oh and for the record, I don't hate anybody. I'm far from a hate-mongering person.. I'm objectively discussing the lack of attention to our history. Deal with it

Bodhidharma · 01-02-2007 10:10PM

Why doesn't the OP just say that he thinks the Irish nation, as in the people, are great and worthy because of the struggle they went through, and to be where we are now ( I would agree with that). What would be even more remarkable is if we could do so without feeling anger for our persecution and hatred for those who persecuted us.

All of these titles - nationalists, republican, catholic, they are all just methods of dividing people. Hopeful mankind will eventually evolve to a point where it sees people as individuals rather than titles.

I see the people in the North as the same as i view my neighbours and the British, as people. What do titles and names mean really? Maybe if we learned to concentrate on what people had in common rather than on what divided us, we would have a chance of peace.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 10:16PM

I'm not trying to create division or instigate it. More the opposite. I have many british friends. I don't hold a grudge against any of them. Why would I? It appears you can't object to British rule without there having some tags to go along with it that I should feel or should do - IE: supporting killing innocent people, hating the brits and all that nonsense.

Saruman · 01-02-2007 10:21PM

dlofnep wrote:

How persuasive you are. I think I'll go run for parliment in Westminister! Sorry, but your overuse of exclamation marks lends me to believe my adoration for my country angers you. Is that it.. Are you angry? Why don't you get over the fact I have a passion about something you do not. If you're expecting an apology out of me for refusing to forget horrible atrocities to out fellow people you've another thing coming.

I do not want, nor need an apology.
I will say this. Im proud to be Irish myself, but i think for different reasons. Im proud we have a culture as diverse as we do. Im proud of our past, including the British occupation which is just another part of our history that made us what we are today. We are a people who with the exception of some of the more hateful people like yourself... get on with life. We built up a great booming economy.. with i might add the help of our English neighbors.
Im proud that we do not take life too seriously. That we can have craic. We have a good working life, unlike Americans where its all work and no play.
I am not proud of our terrorist past.
You talk about "refusing to forget horrible atrocities"? Are you serious? As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. Its not like Ireland did not commit Horrible atrocities on the English by blowing up innocent people including children. Do the English still go on about all the atrocities Irish people have commit in the past? No they do not for the most part. And i should not need to remind you that said atrocities happened so recently that almost everyone living in England today over 6 or 7 years of age will have been alive when possibly their next door neighbor was blown up by a bomb while going to the shops or going to work.

Im not angry at you, why should i be? I do feel pity for you. While most of us sensible people move on with out lives and try to build a future for our children that is free of hate and bloodshed as much as possible... i feel pity and sadness that there are still some out there that have to drag up a past best left to history books, as if by making your anger visible to them then they will be angry. Do you want your children and their children growing up knowing only anger and hatred for something that happened so long ago? Or do you want them to make friends with the English child in school and have a carefree childhood.

Dave! · 01-02-2007 10:22PM

dlofnep wrote:

How persuasive you are. I think I'll go run for parliment in Westminister! Sorry, but your overuse of exclamation marks lends me to believe my adoration for my country angers you. Is that it.. Are you angry? Why don't you get over the fact I have a passion about something you do not. If you're expecting an apology out of me for refusing to forget horrible atrocities to out fellow people you've another thing coming.

Oh and for the record, I don't hate anybody. I'm far from a hate-mongering person.. I'm objectively discussing the lack of attention to our history. Deal with it

Hah, it's great the way you didn't actually address the points in Saruman's post!

I don't think anyone else noticed, don't worry........ ¬_¬

Bodhidharma · 01-02-2007 10:22PM

Maybe i am wrong but i thought the title of your thread was "Some people on here make me want to vomit out of my eyes".

Sounds pretty divisive to me. You are clearly dividing the people on Boards as Them, people who make you want to vomit, and us, people who agree with me.

I wasn't labelling you as anything. Did you not read my post?

nesf · 01-02-2007 10:31PM

dlofnep wrote:

Could you be anymore cliché? It was in response to a post in the same context. I wouldn't call uttering a few words in my native tongue "hijacking a language for republicanism".

No, but you are subscribing to the cliché of this mythical homeland country where everyone spoke Gaeilge (of undefined dialect/form) and the 32 counties were united etc etc. With your 'shed a tear after reading our history' and such you are simply reinforcing this cliché.

Next you'll be quoting from aislings for us all to huddle around and cry about.

The point is that you are equating the speaking of Irish with republicanism in that you seem to view it as bringing you closer to the ideal republican citizen. Like a lot of what you, and others, have been posting in this thread it's a tribal image to aspire to with it's own history and more importantly interpretations of history. The issue is, when you start digging at that history you'll find the 'historic basis' for this tribal image starts crumbling.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 10:36PM

Saruman wrote:

I do not want, nor need an apology.
I will say this. Im proud to be Irish myself, but i think for different reasons. Im proud we have a culture as diverse as we do. Im proud of our past, including the British occupation which is just another part of our history that made us what we are today. We are a people who with the exception of some of the more hateful people like yourself... get on with life. We built up a great booming economy.. with i might add the help of our English neighbors.
Im proud that we do not take life too seriously. That we can have craic. We have a good working life, unlike Americans where its all work and no play.
I am not proud of our terrorist past.
You talk about "refusing to forget horrible atrocities"? Are you serious? As the saying goes, it takes two to tango. Its not like Ireland did not commit Horrible atrocities on the English by blowing up innocent people including children. Do the English still go on about all the atrocities Irish people have commit in the past? No they do not for the most part. And i should not need to remind you that said atrocities happened so recently that almost everyone living in England today over 6 or 7 years of age will have been alive when possibly their next door neighbor was blown up by a bomb while going to the shops or going to work.

Im not angry at you, why should i be? I do feel pity for you. While most of us sensible people move on with out lives and try to build a future for our children that is free of hate and bloodshed as much as possible... i feel pity and sadness that there are still some out there that have to drag up a past best left to history books, as if by making your anger visible to them then they will be angry. Do you want your children and their children growing up knowing only anger and hatred for something that happened so long ago? Or do you want them to make friends with the English child in school and have a carefree childhood.

Keep thinking that. I've seen resentment from English people when I was in London on numerous occasions. Being called a fenian in a pub, twice in the same night in two different pubs.

I never condoned the attacks on Britain. I don't see that I have said otherwise. Britain started the attacks on Ireland, not the other way around. Don't forget it.

Hah, it's great the way you didn't actually address the points in Saruman's post! I don't think anyone else noticed, don't worry........ ¬_¬

I was in a rush so I didn't get a chance to respond to all points. it's hard to keep track and respond to like 5 or 6 posts aimed at you. In brief, Britain is still in control of the North to this day. This affects present day people and the atrocities are far more recent, making it more applicable.

I'd expect nothing more than a post like that. It doesn't change the fact that the catholics up North have been are are still being to this day treated unfairly.

brianthebard · 01-02-2007 10:36PM

Saruman wrote:

WTF? Ripped in two? split?? When was there ever a united Ireland in the past... oh yes.. during British rule!! NEVER before British rule was there ever anythign even approaching a country called Ireland with one people and history/culture.
Britain United the island and brought some sort of order.. so they oppressed the people... And left. So what? It was a long time before most of us still living were born.

The vast MAJORITY of people living in the North want to be part of the UK!! The republicans are a minority!

As for not caring! I dont for sure... Britain did not oppress me, they did not do anything to me.. or to anyone who is left alive in my family!!! Get over yourself and move on.

Saruman. Great post. It pisses me off greatly when I see people acting as if a collective national identity or nation state ever existed prior to 1922. Heck nationalism and nation building is a 19th century phenomenon!

800 years oppression me hole.

Some people on here make me want to vomit out of my eyes.

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