Some people on here make me want to vomit out of my eyes.

Nevyn · 01-02-2007 05:35PM

Ireland was never 1 nation or 1 kingdom it was always a group of provinces and smaller kingdoms and even when there was an Ard Ri that did not give him total rule over the country and there were still boarder disputes and fighting and raiding.

A nation once again is a load of bollix, who the hell wants to live in a hemonginsed Ireland ? I certainly don't it is bad enough what was done to the irish language to make it all the same and conform the same can not be done to a country.

humbert · 01-02-2007 05:37PM

The OP reminds me of the episode of "give my head peace" when the southen republican comes up to stay with da and co. and he's a complete ranting zealot who'll only watch tng etc.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 05:37PM

Celticfire wrote:

What exactly is it that you do? Apart from ranting on a forum...

Apart from voting? I take an active interest in my country, it's history and it's culture and share those views where needed. Isn't ranting is what forums are for? Besides polling about what your favourite colour is of course.

CiaranC · 01-02-2007 05:39PM

dlofnep wrote:

What are you on about? I could do without your red herrings. My original post has nothing to do with anything you're trying to glue.

Actually, it has everything to do with it. Nationalism is dead because weve all seen the hatred, criminality and violence it breeds and we reject it.

Welcome to post-nationalist Ireland!

skywalker · 01-02-2007 05:42PM

dlofnep wrote:

Hi Humanji - I don't hate anyone. I was just a little tempered posting. I mean no harm in my true nature. And I'm not referring to those who campaign. I was referring to the people who outright say that we should get rid of our language and culture and forget about our history.

I salute you sir.

What exactly has the Irish language got to do with the original post about the north?

And yes, because I have an opinion which differs from yours about a language thats little more than a distraction for most of modern Ireland, that makes me a bad person. Good job you told me, I was too busy ignoring my national heritage and watching , god forbid, a soap made by them across the water (dare not say British for fear Id offend you again and make myself a worse person). Jesus christ Im such a vapid empty hollow.

PS Do you want me to hold back your eyelashes while you inevitably puke after reading this.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 05:43PM

humbert wrote:

The OP reminds me of the episode of "give my head peace" when the southen republican comes up to stay with da and co. and he's a complete ranting zealot who'll only watch tng etc.

I'm glad you find the time to post ad hominem attacks on me instead of backing it up by addressing anything I've said. Congrats, you are cliché.

Thaedydal wrote:

Ireland was never 1 nation or 1 kingdom it was always a group of provinces and smaller kingdoms and even when there was an Ard Ri that did not give him total rule over the country and there were still boarder disputes and fighting and raiding.

A nation once again is a load of bollix, who the hell wants to live in a hemonginsed Ireland ? I certainly don't it is bad enough what was done to the irish language to make it all the same and conform the same can not be done to a country.

I think you'll find it was under control under the tenure of Brian Boru. Even if it never was, it is 1 nation by customs, culture and language. The difference is, that culture is being removed at a quicker pace up North because it is under British rule.

It also doesn't change the fact that it was colonised in an unjust manner, that the rights of the Irish people were removed through penal laws and so forth. We should forget all of this because it's easier?

GLaDOS · 01-02-2007 05:45PM

Anything that has happened in the past, stays in the past

If we had that attitude there could be a lot more people alive today...

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 05:48PM

CiaranC wrote:

Actually, it has everything to do with it. Nationalism is dead because weve all seen the hatred, criminality and violence it breeds and we reject it.

Welcome to post-nationalist Ireland!

Sorry Ciaran but violence is only correlated with it because you want it to be and it makes it a little easier for you to shy away from. Whatever gets you by your day.

skywalker wrote:

What exactly has the Irish language got to do with the original post about the north?

And yes, because I have an opinion which differs from yours about a language thats little more than a distraction for most of modern Ireland, that makes me a bad person. Good job you told me, I was too busy ignoring my national heritage and watching , god forbid, a soap made by them across the water (dare not say British for fear Id offend you again and make myself a worse person). Jesus christ Im such a vapid empty hollow.

PS Do you want me to hold back your eyelashes while you inevitably puke after reading this.

I was referring to another thread on the Irish language on signs and so forth. As far as eastenders goes - My intention was never to suggest watching any UK soap was wrong. It was an arbitrary choice. I could of choosen fair city. It was really not all that important.

And I never said it made you a bad person.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 05:51PM

ScienceNerd wrote:

If we had that attitude there could be a lot more people alive today...

We also would be under British Rule, and thousands of injustices to people would of went unheard of. It's not all black and white SN as you'd like it to be.

magick · 01-02-2007 05:51PM

Posted by Saruman: Britain United the island and brought some sort of order.. so they oppressed the people... And left. So what?

Yeah dam right , just like the Nazis brought order to Europe and left so what?! :rolleyes:

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 05:54PM

lol..

jor el · 01-02-2007 05:57PM

stooge wrote:

The recent boom in the economy, Celtic Tiger etc, has led to the standard of living/availability of jobs in the south being significantly better than that in the north. As a result, southeners have become fixated with wealth, too wrapped up in this to care about the divide.

I'm struggling to understand what exactly you're on about here, so I think I'll just not bother. So what if Ireland has become a wealthy country, you'd prefer to go back to the 70's or pre-EEC times would you? We'd all be much better off if we could stand united with Northern-Irish Catholics in the dole queue wouldn't we?

Its a prime example of how power and wealth matter more to a lot of people than principles, courage and honour.

That's a prime example of horse sh*t right there. Give an example of your principles, courage and honour.

[qupte]Just in case you think I'd advocating a mass invasion of the north by the south, I'm not...I'm merely saying that a change of attitude is needed by the broad majority of people in the republic. [/QUOTE]
What exactly are you advocating? What should we do? Demand that the British government hand back the six counties, even though the people there don't want that? We in the republic have no right to tell British people what to do with their country any more than we could tell the French or Italians what to do with theirs.

Theres more to life than wealth and cowardness. After all - the south sold the north out in the first place....

Wealth and "cowardness", that's a good one, it's not even a real word :rolleyes: Tell us of your brave struggle why don't you.

Ireland today has changed. I for one don't particularly care about what happens in the North, except when you see acts of sectarian violence on both sides that shouldn't happen. I care that there was collusion between Loyalist forces and the British Army and the RUC. This shouldn't go unpunished, but it's not up to us. There's no place for this "us against them" attitude that some people have. That's the stance of the paramilitaries and I have no time for them. The people of the North are responsible for themselves, and it is only them that can change things, if they want it.

Futureman · 01-02-2007 05:57PM

I'm curious as to what the OP has done to make a DIFFERENCE besides ranting on the internet.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 06:02PM

Jor el - I think his point was that now we are caught up in money, we forget about alot of things that previously would of mattered more in our lives. That's all.

Futureman wrote:

I'm curious as to what the OP has done to make a DIFFERENCE besides ranting on the internet.

I've already answered this. I vote where needed, debate where needed, rally where needed and make sure I have a grasp of my own history. I'm a single person, I'm not going to over-exagerate my importance - Neither should you expect me to with a post like that.

Nevyn · 01-02-2007 06:03PM

dlofnep wrote:

We also would be under British Rule, and thousands of injustices to people would of went unheard of. It's not all black and white SN as you'd like it to be.

Actually there is a good arguement that we would have been better of as a memeber of the common wealth rather then as a republic but that is in the past and done with we have to look forward.

Yes for a lot of people they are not socailly or historically aware and to change that you have to look to the education system and what is taught in school.

Modren Ireland's history is not being taught to our your people or anything about civic responsibility or how our political and repasentaive government works.

That would be the place to start so that people feel they can take part in grass roots politics and make a difference and aren't either apethic or being spoon fed and riled up by the siners.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 06:06PM

Thaedydal wrote:

Actually there is a good arguement that we would have been better of as a memeber of the common wealth rather then as a republic but that is in the past and done with we have to look forward.

Is there? I'd like to see it. We're pretty well off as it is. NI however appears less well off under British rule. But hey, that's here nor there. I think the republic is doing very well as a member of the EU and as an independent nation.

Thaedydal wrote:

Yes for a lot of people they are not socailly or historically aware and to change that you have to look to the education system and what is taught in school.

I agree with this.

Sleepy · 01-02-2007 06:13PM

Ok, I'll bite on this once and once only. Not because I think I can de-program you but because I'm aware there are younger posters on these boards who don't need to be poisoned with republican rhetoric.

dlofnep wrote:

Countries could also be colonised at will. It's people like me who stand against it. It's the people who sit on their arse who do nothing to prevent it.

You completely missed the point there. If everyone just got on with their daily lives instead of harbouring old grudges that are best left to the history books we'd be in a much better world. I'm not saying we disavow, or even stop teaching history, far from it. There are valuable lessons to be learnt from history. Chief among those is what happens when people are so concerned with what are pretty much arbitrary lines in an atlas that they forget their humanity and concern for other human beings. And for one prattling on about history books so much, please go read a few. Ones written by authors that don't necessarily take the same slant on things as those of your political persuasion. In all other cultures it seems to be the victors that write the history, we Irish have to do it rather backwards for some reason. And no, I'm not advocating that you read only historians who's interpretations would agree with my political leaning, read them all. It should provide you with a far less black and white view of the world.

It's a small majority, and the majority is a majority of people who weaned out the native owners. I'll spare you the babble, I'm sure your aware of our history, but choose to ignore it.

So should the current minority wean out the current natives who have lived in Northern Ireland for generations? Many of those 'natives' you're discussing would have been Viking or Norman settlers here. The great thing about living in the present is that it gives us a chance to change the future for future generations. Don't you imagine that it was that chance that spurred the republicans of yesteryear to act? Do you think they'd still want people fighting over a line on a map? Or do you think they'd rather their forebears lived peaceful, happy lives free from the opression they fought against? Look around you. That opression doesn't exist any more. The only people to be hurt in the north for the past two decades have been those innocents caught in the crossfire of extremists on both sides and the extremists themselves.

I think you'll find that incorrect. Ireland was always united by the same common traditions and the same people. It was seperated through provinces, but then again - All countries are seperated in some form - It doesn't neglect the fact that it's still one country.

Sorry, that's wrong again. One language, similar customs.. One name. Ireland has always been Ireland. Brian Boru had control of Ireland. I think you should invest in a history book instead of paraphrasing some other idiot's post on here.

Again, go back to history books (and again, read many of them to get a reasonable overview of things). Ireland didn't have the same language, never had one undisputed leader or unchallenged 'government'. It had many very similar languages but never the unified (and many scholars would argue bastardised/anglicised) language we call Gaelic. Are you confusing the geographic definition of an island with the political definition of a country? Yes, looking at a map it's simple to say that this island should be a single country but when you look at the different peoples, communities, political views and social structures it's not that simple. Nothing is. There is no black and white, no good and evil, it's all just different shades of grey and the precise shade of grey is dependent on where you look at it from.

People were consistently oppressed up North, very recently in a historical timeframe.

Recently != now.

It's a small majority, not a vast majority.

So that makes it okay for the minority to determine the fate of the majority?

Or is it just okay if the minority see things from your perspective? :rolleyes:

Of course you don't care. That's been obvious from the get-go. It's about principals, of which you have none. You care not of the loss of life for those who made a stand against Britain and spit in their faces. I'd expect no more from you.

Of course Saruman has principles. They're just different to yours. My own principles go strongly against the slaughter of innocents in an attempt to make one's political voice heard. They also, it may surprise you to know, go against gerrymandering, the oppression of a minority group in society and to be quite honest I can identify with the defenderist stand of the early provisional movement. What differences us is that I realise there has been enough bloodshed on both sides, that I realise the sins of the father cannot be held against the son and that instead of seeing a black and white view of the past and becoming obsessed with it, I try to learn from the different shades of grey there to paint a colourful brighter future for all.

If that's unprincipled. I'm happy to stay unprincipled, because what you call principles, I call ignorance.

InFront · 01-02-2007 06:16PM

Support+1 ^^

DeepBlue · 01-02-2007 06:22PM

dlofnep wrote:

Face the facts. Our country was ripped in half right in front of our eyes, our very own countryment and women brutalised, murdered, raped, mistreated, had their rights and voting ability removed for time. We were colonised by a brutal and vicious sect who are known the world over for mistreatment of the native people.

Very true. But Fianna Fail/PDs will probably still be re-elected in the next election

.

dlofnep wrote:

The others? Too busy, Eastenders in on the box

Fair City ftw.

jor el · 01-02-2007 06:23PM

dlofnep wrote:

Jor el - I think his point was that now we are caught up in money, we forget about alot of things that previously would of mattered more in our lives. That's all.

I'm not caught up in money, I need it to live as does everyone else. I also work hard to earn what I do, but it's not the reason I don't particularly care about the North, and I'm sure it's not for most people. I can't say that events in Northern Ireland, either in the recent or distant past, ever mattered to me. I'm sure they didn't effect a great number of Irish people. Some people just seen to think it should matter, or want to make it mean something. I think the majority of those people are the "Up the Ra" crowd that don't really know what's going on at all. The kind that organise marches on the streets with pictures of Bobby Sands on them and banners that have "800 years" and "We shall never forget" written on them. I saw one of these recently and they forced everybody off a busy street so they could march through. It made me not particularly proud to be Irish.

As far as I'm concerned that attitude has no place in 21st century Ireland. Our history is our history and will never be forgotten, but it doesn't, and shouldn't, rule our lives now. Ireland has changed and the world has changed, people should stop living in the past.

stooge · 01-02-2007 06:24PM

jor el wrote:

Ireland today has changed. I for one don't particularly care about what happens in the North, except when you see acts of sectarian violence on both sides that shouldn't happen. I care that there was collusion between Loyalist forces and the British Army and the RUC. This shouldn't go unpunished, but it's not up to us. There's no place for this "us against them" attitude that some people have. That's the stance of the paramilitaries and I have no time for them. The people of the North are responsible for themselves, and it is only them that can change things, if they want it.

I think thats the kind of quote which would make the OP 'vomit out of his eyes'. It sums up the attitude I was speaking of in my post i.e. 'who gives a toss about the north'. sickening.

Sleepy · 01-02-2007 06:26PM

What's sickening about it stooge?

stooge · 01-02-2007 06:37PM

Sleepy wrote:

What's sickening about it stooge?

Isn't it obvious? ... it's sickening because it would make the OP vomit out of his eyes.....:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 06:42PM

Sorry for the length of time to respond, I got logged out and lost my post

Here's the jist of it.

Sleepy wrote:

Ok, I'll bite on this once and once only. Not because I think I can de-program you but because I'm aware there are younger posters on these boards who don't need to be poisoned with republican rhetoric.

Poisoned? Interesting choice of words. I'm not poisoning anybody. Everyone has their own right to make up their own mind, as do you. My difference of opinion is something to be vaccinated against it would appear.

Sleepy wrote:

You completely missed the point there. If everyone just got on with their daily lives instead of harbouring old grudges that are best left to the history books we'd be in a much better world.

I believe you missed the point. I fully acknowledge that idea, but it's not as simple as that. If everyone let their customs and people be faded and mistreated at will, the world would be a horrible place. If people didn't fight against Hitler, the world would be hell. And going by your suggestion, if people didn't remember Hitler's wrong-doing and campaign against it, even for years afterwards - That type of thing would be far more common.

It's called the past for a very good reason - Something happened. If it wasn't of importance then it could be called the nothing tense. The past affects the present. Decisions made in the present based on the past affect the future. It's all simple really.

Sleepy wrote:

I'm not saying we disavow, or even stop teaching history, far from it. There are valuable lessons to be learnt from history. Chief among those is what happens when people are so concerned with what are pretty much arbitrary lines in an atlas that they forget their humanity and concern for other human beings.

It's not about lines or borders, it's about what has happened to the "people" and how things have became, all because one nation felt fit to take over dozens of countries and mistreat it's natives at will.

Sleepy wrote:

And for one prattling on about history books so much, please go read a few. Ones written by authors that don't necessarily take the same slant on things as those of your political persuasion. In all other cultures it seems to be the victors that write the history, we Irish have to do it rather backwards for some reason. And no, I'm not advocating that you read only historians who's interpretations would agree with my political leaning, read them all. It should provide you with a far less black and white view of the world.

I'd love if you could educate me. I really would. Are you saying Brian Boru did not have control of Ireland? This includes Ulster. He controlled Leinster through defeat of Máel Sechnaill. He gave Máel a smaller portion to control, but Boru still realistically had full control of Ireland. I'm aware there was a few small scale rebellions from Norse-Gaels. This is here nor there.. and doesn't change the horrid realities of history.

Ireland was united through customs and language. Infact, it could be said that even Scotland was so close to Irish customs - Even Robert The Bruce documented this in his efforts to join Ireland and Scotland. I think his insight and opinion on how tightly knit the customs were is alot more accurate than you.

Whereas we and you and our people and your people, free since ancient times, share the same national ancestry and are urged to come together more eagerly and joyfully in friendship by a common language and by common custom, we have sent you our beloved kinsman, the bearers of this letter

-Robert The Bruce.

Sleepy wrote:

So should the current minority wean out the current natives who have lived in Northern Ireland for generations?

They are not the natives. I feel for the protestants in this delicate situation.. But understand how Northern Ireland became and understand that there is a large Catholic population who's voice is borderline worthless up North. I would welcome anyone from the North, catholic or protestant into a United Ireland. Protestants gained control through penal laws. It wouldn't suprise me if the population of the North was obtained by protestants from Catholics who moved away to escape the harsh realities of living there. As you said, it's a gray area.. and obviously the protestants have a right to express their views also, as do we.

Again, go back to history books (and again, read many of them to get a reasonable overview of things). Ireland didn't have the same language, never had one undisputed leader or unchallenged 'government'. It had many very similar languages but never the unified (and many scholars would argue bastardised/anglicised) language we call Gaelic.

Different dialects, subtle differences in language from area to area.. but nothing what you are making out that I am aware of. Still, you're escaping and walking around all my points of mistreatment by our then English rulers.

Recently != now.

5 minutes ago != now. What's your point? It's recent enough for us to be weary about it. And it doesn't change the fact that what happened in the 70's was downright wrong, and even afterwards. Still, you can tidy all this away and brush it under your carpet. It's all in the past, it doesn't matter right?

If someone kills a member of your family - 30 years on, would you brush it under your carpet just as easily? I doubt it.

OfflerCrocGod · 01-02-2007 06:48PM

Here is a quick summation for anyone too lazy to read the full thread: RANT.

Red Hand · 01-02-2007 06:53PM

Sleepy wrote:

Ok, I'll bite on this once and once only. Not because I think I can de-program you but because I'm aware there are younger posters on these boards who don't need to be poisoned with republican rhetoric.

You completely missed the point there. If everyone just got on with their daily lives instead of harbouring old grudges that are best left to the history books we'd be in a much better world. I'm not saying we disavow, or even stop teaching history, far from it. There are valuable lessons to be learnt from history. Chief among those is what happens when people are so concerned with what are pretty much arbitrary lines in an atlas that they forget their humanity and concern for other human beings. And for one prattling on about history books so much, please go read a few. Ones written by authors that don't necessarily take the same slant on things as those of your political persuasion. In all other cultures it seems to be the victors that write the history, we Irish have to do it rather backwards for some reason. And no, I'm not advocating that you read only historians who's interpretations would agree with my political leaning, read them all. It should provide you with a far less black and white view of the world.

So should the current minority wean out the current natives who have lived in Northern Ireland for generations? Many of those 'natives' you're discussing would have been Viking or Norman settlers here. The great thing about living in the present is that it gives us a chance to change the future for future generations. Don't you imagine that it was that chance that spurred the republicans of yesteryear to act? Do you think they'd still want people fighting over a line on a map? Or do you think they'd rather their forebears lived peaceful, happy lives free from the opression they fought against? Look around you. That opression doesn't exist any more. The only people to be hurt in the north for the past two decades have been those innocents caught in the crossfire of extremists on both sides and the extremists themselves.

Again, go back to history books (and again, read many of them to get a reasonable overview of things). Ireland didn't have the same language, never had one undisputed leader or unchallenged 'government'. It had many very similar languages but never the unified (and many scholars would argue bastardised/anglicised) language we call Gaelic. Are you confusing the geographic definition of an island with the political definition of a country? Yes, looking at a map it's simple to say that this island should be a single country but when you look at the different peoples, communities, political views and social structures it's not that simple. Nothing is. There is no black and white, no good and evil, it's all just different shades of grey and the precise shade of grey is dependent on where you look at it from.

Recently != now.

So that makes it okay for the minority to determine the fate of the majority?

Or is it just okay if the minority see things from your perspective? :rolleyes:

Of course Saruman has principles. They're just different to yours. My own principles go strongly against the slaughter of innocents in an attempt to make one's political voice heard. They also, it may surprise you to know, go against gerrymandering, the oppression of a minority group in society and to be quite honest I can identify with the defenderist stand of the early provisional movement. What differences us is that I realise there has been enough bloodshed on both sides, that I realise the sins of the father cannot be held against the son and that instead of seeing a black and white view of the past and becoming obsessed with it, I try to learn from the different shades of grey there to paint a colourful brighter future for all.

If that's unprincipled. I'm happy to stay unprincipled, because what you call principles, I call ignorance.

I agree with most of that. I know that history is important and I'm all for learning about it but I can't see the point in harbouring grudges.

History can be twisted any way you want. The Irish used British slaves for instance at one point in our history. Should they be remembering and commerating that? Should we have a bone to pick with the Danes for coming over here and establishing Dublin as one of the largest slave markets at the time in Europe? When does one stop?

As Thaedyal said above, there is a argument that we could have moved gradually out of the Empire and into the Commonwealth if the right circumstances had allowed it. Australia and Canada did quite well, without all the violence and bloodshed that Ireland experienced.

As for celebrating one's culture, I've no problem with that. Patriotism is fine, it's Nationalism that is the sh*t-stirrer (pardon my language).:)

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 06:58PM

OfflerCrocGod wrote:

Here is a quick summation for anyone too lazy to read the full thread: RANT.

Appreciate your insightful input. You've added depth and additional facts, previously unknown to this thread.

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 07:00PM

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote:

As Thaedyal said above, there is a argument that we could have moved gradually out of the Empire and into the Commonwealth if the right circumstances had allowed it. Australia and Canada did quite well, without all the violence and bloodshed that Ireland experienced.

The same way Scotland moved out? Scotland has a similar history to Ireland. Even Wales. And who said we wanted to be apart of the Commonwealth. I wouldn't subject myself to being associated with anything to do with a nation of Imperialists.

Australia was founded as a criminal colony. Canada spent years in bloodshed in the civil wars. Hardly a good example.

On that note, I've got to logoff for now. Slán!

herbieflowers · 01-02-2007 07:03PM

dlofnep wrote:

I wouldn't subject myself to being associated with anything to do with a nation of Imperialists.

But you're speaking the Imperialist language! Burn him!

dlofnep · 01-02-2007 07:08PM

But you're speaking the Imperialist language! Burn him!

Gabh mo leithscéal.. It's not my fault our educational system is dire, but I'm self studying to remedy that. I posted my interest in the gaeilge forum a while back if you doubt it. I blame the British national school system that they implemented for all of our lack of gaeilge. You should too, because it is truly why we do not speak it.

Some people on here make me want to vomit out of my eyes.

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