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To all devout Christians

135

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  • #62
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    @Killaqueen

    As far as your original questions are concerned, I can offer the following: I did science at UCD (Geology) in the 80's. Most of the people I met were Catholics, a smaller number Protestants. There were a few atheists, but really no more than a handful. Bear in mind that Geology, and Biology (Bot/Zoo being my other minor subjects) obviously involve the study of evolution. Geology, of course, obviously also brings you face to face with the Biblical Flood as well (on a side note, no, there's no evidence for it).

    Now, by the end of four years, not one person who started Christian had become an atheist. Several did become born-again Christians, including at least two of the atheists. Does this suggest that evolution is incompatible with Christianity?

    Further - you're 15. It's the perfect time to question your faith - roughly the next 10 years of your life will be social, before work and independent life cast their strengthening net over you. Those people who are "solid in their faith" at 15 have generally not really questioned it - Christian and atheist alike.

    You can come to religion as late as you like - my younger brother only really came to it at 30, and is now solidly ensconced in a very warm church community.

    Hope that helps, even a little. You have plenty of time to firm up your faith - at the very least the next decade of your life.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #63
    Far Corfe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 36 ✭Far Corfe


    Killaqueen: I'd suggest you read Bill Brysons " A short history of nearly everything" It shook my belief in evolution and the scientific explanations of the Big Bang although i dont think this was Brysons intent. His detailing of the amount of coincidental events falling in the exact sequence that would need to have occurred to create life here and nowhere else is the scientific explanation. Believing in something like intelligent design is almost easier.


  • #64
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Far Corfe wrote:
    Killaqueen: I'd suggest you read Bill Brysons " A short history of nearly everything" It shook my belief in evolution and the scientific explanations of the Big Bang although i dont think this was Brysons intent. His detailing of the amount of coincidental events falling in the exact sequence that would need to have occurred to create life here and nowhere else is the scientific explanation. Believing in something like intelligent design is almost easier.

    Much, much easier.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #65
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Scofflaw wrote:
    Now, by the end of four years, not one person who started Christian had become an atheist. Several did become born-again Christians, including at least two of the atheists. Does this suggest that evolution is incompatible with Christianity?
    Interesting observation. I’m not expecting the development of ideas to be necessarily subject to the same process as the evolution of species, any more than I would expect the evolution of species to be subject to the second law of thermodynamics. But I’m struck at the way your anecdote points to adoption of fundementalist religious belief in the face of scientific knowledge that would be, presumably at the very least, not supportive of such a belief.

    I have this picture of a sensible and rational Neanderthal Man saying “Those Cro-Magnons are an evolutionary dead end, if ever I saw one. They think fire is hot because God wants it that way.’


  • #66
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Schuhart wrote:
    Interesting observation. I’m not expecting the development of ideas to be necessarily subject to the same process as the evolution of species, any more than I would expect the evolution of species to be subject to the second law of thermodynamics. But I’m struck at the way your anecdote points to adoption of fundementalist religious belief in the face of scientific knowledge that would be, presumably at the very least, not supportive of such a belief.

    I have this picture of a sensible and rational Neanderthal Man saying “Those Cro-Magnons are an evolutionary dead end, if ever I saw one. They think fire is hot because God wants it that way.’

    Aye - shortly before they were massacred for "walking about demonstrating evolution in an offensive manner".

    Actually, those atheists became born-agains for a very simple and forceful reason - evolution. Both of them desperately wanted to marry women who were born-agains, so they became born-agains (and married, and had kids). Evidence, schmevidence - it's all about the sex.

    Good job evolution is a scientific theory rather than a meme....

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • #67
    maitri
    Closed Accounts Posts: 426 ✭✭maitri


    Scofflaw wrote:

    Actually, those atheists became born-agains for a very simple and forceful reason - evolution. Both of them desperately wanted to marry women who were born-agains, so they became born-agains (and married, and had kids). Evidence, schmevidence - it's all about the sex.

    :D


  • #68
    grahamo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 761 ✭✭✭grahamo


    I believe the bible to be a series of metaphors. For example, Let there be light = The big bang. The 7 days it took god to create the Earth to be 7 'ages' or phases if you like. I know there is a God. What puzzles me is why he'd be interested in us!


  • #69
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    grahamo wrote:
    I know there is a God. What puzzles me is why he'd be interested in us!
    That reminds me of a story from Hilaire Belloc's Path to Rome that I think captures that thought with great humour. I posted it before here.


  • #70
    Killaqueen!!!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,026 ✭✭✭Killaqueen!!!


    grahamo wrote:
    I believe the bible to be a series of metaphors. For example, Let there be light = The big bang. The 7 days it took god to create the Earth to be 7 'ages' or phases if you like. I know there is a God. What puzzles me is why he'd be interested in us!

    That makes sense...

    So I wonder what the Great Flood is a metaphor for...

    And thank you to those who have tried to help me in this. I am accepting that people are telling me to look into other religions but I don't understand why that took up half this thread when all I wanted was a look into Christianity and it has turned into a debate on Atheism and Islam.

    I should have took the advice of a young man who PMd me warning me this would turn into a big arguement....hehe


  • #71
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    So I wonder what the Great Flood is a metaphor for...

    It is a metaphor for the wrath of God, a warning that God can and will destroy humanity if we displease him. But the myth itself is possibly based on an actual flood, but not on the same scale as described in the Bible. It may have been an attempt for the people of the area to comprehend a significant event, or series of events, in the context of their religion. This would eventually become part of the culture.

    There are a number of historical theories, along with evidence (albeit very limited) that suggest a flood or series of floods effected the Middle East, possibly destroying a major city, around the Black Sea approx 6000 - 5600 BCE, near the end of the stone age.

    These were localised floods, not world wide, effecting only the Middle East. But to the people of the time who probably had little comprehension of a world beyond the Middle East, and would have no understanding of modern theories about weather and flooding, these events would have held great significance. They no doubt would have attempted to understand why these events happened within the context of their religion (which after all was on of the major points of religion, to explain what we don't understand). The idea that these floods were punishment for something would not have been a great leap, since natural disasters were often understood to be punishment for something

    It is not hard to see how descriptions of a major flood, or series of floods, could have altered over the 4000 years as it was told and retold as an oral tradition until it became a story about a world wide flood sent by God to punish the wicked. Naturally how humanity actually survived an event like this would need to be incorporated into the story, which is why we have the character of Noah in the story.


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  • #72
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    I am accepting that people are telling me to look into other religions but I don't understand why that took up half this thread when all I wanted was a look into Christianity and it has turned into a debate on Atheism and Islam.
    These are indeed shark infested waters for anyone wandering in saying ‘I’ve been having a few doubts recently’.

    But as you’ll understand, my motives are always as pure as the driven snow.

    I might just add that it’s not totally fair to discount Islam on grounds of its view of women while wishing for a Catholic upbringing. I’ve no personal gripe with Catholicism. But their staffing policy hasn’t exactly embraced gender mainstreaming.

    Where you might find a contrast with Islam is the concept of God. Picture yourself locked into the same cage as a well-fed but bored tiger. Worship consists of saying ‘Nice kitty, merciful kitty, compassionate kitty’, in the hope that abject capitulation will stop the cat from batting you around to relieve the monotony.


  • #73
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Schuhart wrote:
    These are indeed shark infested waters for anyone wandering in saying ‘I’ve been having a few doubts recently’.

    It is strikingly similar to walking into certain bars and saying "hey, I'm lost, no-one knows where I am, and I'm supposed to deliver this briefcase full of cash to the bank".

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • #74
    Suff
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 998 ✭✭✭Suff


    Schuhart wrote:

    I might just add that it’s not totally fair to discount Islam on grounds of its view of women

    Those views are miss understood and needs to be clearfield, so if anyone is interested I'll setup a thread in Islam on women so we could clear those murky views, however when it did come to women Christianity didnt give women any rights up until the modern society decided to free the "Woman" back in the 60's.
    Where you might find a contrast with Islam is the concept of God. Picture yourself locked into the same cage as a well-fed but bored tiger. Worship consists of saying ‘Nice kitty, merciful kitty, compassionate kitty’, in the hope that abject capitulation will stop the cat from batting you around to relieve the monotony.

    Interesting,..where did you get that concept?


  • #75
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Suff wrote:
    Interesting,..where did you get that concept?
    Essentially from considering the importance given to not intruding on God’s ‘space’, coupled with the exaggerated courtesy afforded to the divine position.


  • #76
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Schuhart wrote:
    These are indeed shark infested waters for anyone wandering in saying ‘I’ve been having a few doubts recently’.
    How true.
    I might just add that it’s not totally fair to discount Islam on grounds of its view of women while wishing for a Catholic upbringing. I’ve no personal gripe with Catholicism. But their staffing policy hasn’t exactly embraced gender mainstreaming.
    Yes the Catholic church isn't exactly a Germaine Greer type of organisation.
    Where you might find a contrast with Islam is the concept of God. Picture yourself locked into the same cage as a well-fed but bored tiger. Worship consists of saying ‘Nice kitty, merciful kitty, compassionate kitty’, in the hope that abject capitulation will stop the cat from batting you around to relieve the monotony.
    :D Well put. It's quite similar to the old testament view of the vengeful God rather than the forgiving one.
    Suff wrote:
    however when it did come to women Christianity didnt give women any rights up until the modern society decided to free the "Woman" back in the 60's.
    In many ways it still hasn't afforded women equal rights in the way most would understand the concept, but I would say if you put the question to women of which faith they would prefer to be ruled by, I would suspect the slant would be towards the Christian side. In any case "modern society" has one advantage over the more rigid forms of faith as it can evolve far more easily.
    Interesting,..where did you get that concept?
    I get the same impression from it as Schuhart. There is constant reference to the wrath of God against non believers. The whole repetitive praying/worshiping part adds to that. It feels like one has to keep God at bay, by constantly praising and reassuring him of ones devotion. I would have thought that any deity would know already how you feel about Him, so constant re affirmation would hardly be required. It sounds like an extreme extension of a human ruler who needs an ego massage.

    Islam is not alone in this. The old time religion/old testament God is similar. Catholicism has issues there. The repetitive recitation of the rosary etc. AFAIR did Jesus not suggest "not to pray as the heathen do(repetitive) as God knows what you want already"? Just say one prayer the "Our father..." That all said I can see the whole repetitive mantra bit as a means to meditate.

    To the OP, I would just say you've plenty of time to research into various faiths and see what fits you in the end.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #77
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    :)
    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    ...I'd like to ask a few questions if I may.

    How old are you? And when did you realise your strong faith? For example were you always a religious person or did you go through a process of not being a very strict Christian (eg not praying, not reading the Bible, not going to church..) to being a 'good Christian'?

    I've never been a good Christian. I was born into a Protestant-ish family who didn't find it that important and though the schools I've been to were Christian, it was not a Catholic one and so we did not do mass, I never made my Confirmation or Communion. I barely go to Church and I've always wished that I was born into a strong Catholic family - y'know like all the great Irish people were...

    I write this because I'm 15 and really questioning my faith. You must be thinking, 'what faith' but it's not that...I believe in God, I believe in His son Jesus Christ.....well at least I thought i did. Until I thought about evolution.

    How can anyone really say that they are a devout Christian who believes in evolution? As much as I'd like to believe that evolution didn't happen..it's becoming more and more evident that it is. Science proves it.

    I dunno what I'm getting at here but I'm just so confused about my religion. Are most people in this forum older than me, and so, maybe I have time to rebuild my faith or is it usual for a 15 year old to be doubting her faith? Most of my friends don't have this sort of trouble, although I just learned that one is actually an atheist, and I know a couple of my friends who are strongly involved with their church.
    Hello killaqueen, I'll do my best to answer your questions :)

    I'm 37 now and I've really only been religious for the past 4 years. During my youth, my parents did little or nothing to educate me about my faith and catechish in school was very poor and this I think was the root of my faith problems. I like a lot of young people started to drift away from the faith in my late teens and turned towards eastern religions and new-age stuff. Eventually I discovered yoga and thought I had found the answer to all my questions. How wrong I was!

    After a trip to Lourdes 4 years ago, my prayers were answered and I started to realize that the catholic Church is the one true Church. I started to educate myself and found the answers I had been looking for. It was like dusting off an old chest and finding it full of treasure when I opened the lid!
    The one thing that struck me was finding out just how much God really loves us!

    Now, on the subject of evolution, your fears are unfounded. There isn't necessarily a contradiction between evolution and the existence of God. The important thing to realize is that it is our human soul that differentiates us from the animals. God gave the first man an immortal spiritual soul. Animals do apparently have souls but they're not spiritual or immortal. The Church has no official position on whether man came about through evolution or was created from nothing.

    I hope this is of some help.

    God bless,
    Noel.


  • #78
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Puck wrote:
    I read and studied the Bible and realised that being a Christian doesn't mean following some organisation but following Christ.
    Hello Puck, hope you're well. :)

    I'd like to respectfully disagree with this statement. Jesus founded a Church in the apostles. This Church was founded to teach the Truth of Jesus Christ and as a channel for God's grace, via the sacraments.

    Matthew 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    See also

    Luke 10:16 He that heareth you [the apostles], heareth me; and he that despiseth you [the early Church], despiseth me; and he that despiseth me, despiseth him that sent me.

    God bless,
    Noel.


  • #79
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    :)
    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    ...I'd like to ask a few questions if I may.

    How old are you? And when did you realise your strong faith? For example were you always a religious person or did you go through a process of not being a very strict Christian (eg not praying, not reading the Bible, not going to church..) to being a 'good Christian'?

    I've never been a good Christian. I was born into a Protestant-ish family who didn't find it that important and though the schools I've been to were Christian, it was not a Catholic one and so we did not do mass, I never made my Confirmation or Communion. I barely go to Church and I've always wished that I was born into a strong Catholic family - y'know like all the great Irish people were...

    I write this because I'm 15 and really questioning my faith. You must be thinking, 'what faith' but it's not that...I believe in God, I believe in His son Jesus Christ.....well at least I thought i did. Until I thought about evolution.

    How can anyone really say that they are a devout Christian who believes in evolution? As much as I'd like to believe that evolution didn't happen..it's becoming more and more evident that it is. Science proves it.

    I dunno what I'm getting at here but I'm just so confused about my religion. Are most people in this forum older than me, and so, maybe I have time to rebuild my faith or is it usual for a 15 year old to be doubting her faith? Most of my friends don't have this sort of trouble, although I just learned that one is actually an atheist, and I know a couple of my friends who are strongly involved with their church.
    Hello killaqueen, I'll do my best to answer your questions :)

    I'm 37 now and I've really only been religious for the past 4 years. During my youth, my parents did little or nothing to educate me about my faith and catechish in school was very poor and this I think was the root of my faith problems. I like a lot of young people started to drift away from the faith in my late teens and turned towards eastern religions and new-age stuff. Eventually I discovered yoga and thought I had found the answer to all my questions. How wrong I was!

    After a trip to Lourdes 4 years ago, my prayers were answered and I started to realize that the catholic Church is the one true Church. I started to educate myself and found the answers I had been looking for. It was like dusting off an old chest and finding it full of treasure when I opened the lid!
    The one thing that struck me was finding out just how much God really loves us!

    Now, on the subject of evolution, your fears are unfounded. There isn't necessarily a contradiction between evolution and the existence of God. The important thing to realize is that it is our human soul that differentiates us from the animals. God gave the first man an immortal spiritual soul. Animals do apparently have souls but they're not spiritual or immortal. The Church has no official position on whether man came about through evolution or was created from nothing.

    I hope this is of some help.

    God bless,
    Noel.


  • #80
    l3rian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 867 ✭✭✭l3rian


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM

    Any theists care to comment, after viewing the above video of Sam Harris?


  • #81
    kelly1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,026 ✭✭✭kelly1


    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    Take other Science issues. Earth is just one planet of possibly millions. There must be life on other planets...hell, we're close to discovering that there's probably life on Mars too. No mention of that in the Bible. So is God just a god of our planet?
    I think this is unlikely. If we accept the doctrine of original sin, we could conclude that there would be other Adams on other planets who fell from grace and had to be redeemed like us. No, I think we're unique and Jesus died once for us alone.
    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    So if the Bible *is* false...why isn't Jesus? Jesus could be a myth, a story..He could be exaggerated...these stories were written by people years and years ago. How can I believe in this?
    The bible isn't a science book, it's a spiritual book. A lot of it is allegorical.
    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    There's so much arguement against Christianity. And if there is no God - what is the point in living? Why would life so great/bad as this be happening to lead us to nothing - no afterlife...?
    Agreed!
    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    And then there's the age-old question - Why do bad things happen to good people? Why are there people dying every second in Africa? What did they do to anger God? Why did God let the Holocaust happen? etc. etc.
    Bad things happen to good people because we don't live according to God's will. I'm not suggesting for a second that God is punishing anyone. I'm referring to poverty caused by corrupt governments and lack of charity towards the poor. At the end of the day, we all have free will. God will never force us to love Him. It's our CHOICE.
    Killaqueen!!! wrote:
    I don't want to be atheist - I really don't. And I don't know why at this particular time I am going through this crisis.
    You're living in a very cynical world that often doesn't accept that a being as loving as God or that a place as beautiful as heaven could exist. Don't let the world drag you down! Hang in there and trust in God.

    God bless you,
    Noel.


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  • #82
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    kelly1 wrote:
    You're living in a very cynical world that often doesn't accept that a being as loving as God or that a place as beautiful as heaven could exist. Don't let the world drag you down! Hang in there and trust in God.

    OR, don't force yourself to believe in something just because you want it to be true! Y'know, one or the other! :D


  • #83
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,327 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    kelly1 wrote:
    The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us.
    Now speaking as a dyed in the wool agnostic.. Why would that diminish the idea?
    I saw someone write; "Why would God create a monkey just so it would evolve into a human?" Science tells us that Homo Sapien Neandrathol's and Homo Sapien Sapien's evolved from Homo Erectus'. I don't want to bore you with all this (I just learnt about it today). Going way further back throughout all the animals to where it just began with bacteria - that isn't the God we love and know. He didn't create 'bacteria' to evolve over millions of years into eventually a human.
    Frankly it seems more "magical" than BAM "oh look I've created the world. Plus leaving all those clues about evolution, big bang etc seems a but sloppy(obviously there's a thread running on this and I don't want to drag it up here).
    The first book of the Bible doesn't say anything about the Big Bang, nothing about evolution - it is the word of God (as Jesus believed it to be so) and it has nothing about this sort of stuff. God created Adam and Eve and life began through them.
    Well you could argue that the whole "let there be light" could be the big bang.

    You say this;
    So how can you be Christian and accept evolution?

    And then you say this;
    The bible isn't a science book, it's a spiritual book. A lot of it is allegorical.
    So where's the problem with evolution, big bang etc.
    I think this is unlikely. If we accept the doctrine of original sin, we could conclude that there would be other Adams on other planets who fell from grace and had to be redeemed like us. No, I think we're unique and Jesus died once for us alone.
    So your faith would collapse if we found out there was life elsewhere(pretty likely)? Intelligent life would be an even bigger issue I suppose?
    I'd like to respectfully disagree with this statement. Jesus founded a Church in the apostles. This Church was founded to teach the Truth of Jesus Christ and as a channel for God's grace, via the sacraments.
    Maybe, but is the Catholic church that church? There are far too many inconsistencies between even their own texts and the workings of the church. Remember the reformation? That's what kinda kicked that whole thing off.

    Many worry about Artificial Intelligence. I worry far more about Organic Idiocy.



  • #84
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    kelly1 wrote:
    You're living in a very cynical world that often doesn't accept that a being as loving as God or that a place as beautiful as heaven could exist. Don't let the world drag you down! Hang in there and trust in God.
    DaveMcG wrote:
    OR, don't force yourself to believe in something just because you want it to be true! Y'know, one or the other! :D
    kelly1 wrote:
    The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us.
    DaveMcG wrote:
    Now speaking as a dyed in the wool agnostic.. Why would that diminish the idea?
    If I had a penny for every time I’ve posted up a link to this extract from a lecture by theist biologist Ken Miller debunking intelligent design, I’d have about sixpence. It only takes four minutes, but I find it helps to remind us that not every theist seems bent on retreating from reality. In fact, I only posted it yesterday to the creationism thread, but I just like the way he concludes:
    How would Intelligent Design explain this? Only in one way. By shrugging and saying ‘That’s the way the Designer made it. No reason, no rhyme. Presumably there’s a Designer who designed human chromosome number 2 to make it look as if it was formed by the fusion from a primate ancestor.’

    I’m a Roman Catholic. I’m a theist. In the broadest sense, I would say I believe in a Designer. But, you know what? I don’t believe in a deceptive one. I don’t believe in one that would do this to try to fool us and therefore I think this is authentic and it tells us something about our ancestors.
    Having said that, can I counsel against the temptation to evolve this thread into another discussion on creationism?


  • #85
    Asiaprod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,737 ✭✭✭Asiaprod


    Schuhart wrote:
    Having said that, can I counsel against the temptation to evolve this thread into another discussion on creationism?
    You may indeed:) One is quite enough.


  • #86
    Barnabas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Barnabas


    I am by no means an expert on the theory of evolution but one question:

    Exactly what part of the 'theory' of evolution has been proved beyond all doubt?
    Can we actually find two scientists that agree on how exactly life, and human life in particular, evolved.

    The book of genesis is not meant to be a scientific manual. How it tells us that God created all that exists is one dimension but the most important dimension is the one where it tells us THAT God created all that exists.

    I'd like to quote Pope Benedict XVI's homily at his inaugural Mass:

    [I]"Only when we meet the living God in Christ do we know what life is. We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."[/I]

    So while Christians may perhaps legitimately give ground to some of science's assertions and theories regarding evolution and its probability as the best we can come up with to explain things, it can never renounce that humanity and each and every individual human being is desired into existence by God, loved by him and held in existence by his love.
    If everything that there is exists because of the chance unfolding of events that could have unfolded in a million other ways, then what meaning has anything. So the atheist will then say that God as Creator is an invention or projection by religious people to give them meaning. But if that's the case then where do they get their meaning from and why don't billions of others follow them on their enlightened way?

    Don't discount that God is the creator of all that there is until you can discount absolutely that it is impossible. If it is possible that life can come from non-life -as evolution seems to suggest, that something comes from nothing all by itself - as evolution seems to suggest, (where did the matter which is in the universe come from?), then is it not just as possible also that God created all that exists.

    I think the problem most Christians have with evolution is not the theory itself but that theory taken to a radical conclusion, i.e. all that exists just exists. it wasn't created by God. And additionally there is certainly no room here for a human soul since all that there is must be material and a soul is immaterial.
    I don't know, but perhaps a modified version might be more acceptable to Christianity but certainly not this atheistic version of things.

    Scientific evidence seems to point in the direction of evolution. is that compatible with a Creator God and if so How? I'm not going to try to answer that question. But absence of evidence for God creating the world is not evidence of absence!

    There is as much in favour of God as Creator who has a purpose than the random unfolding of an accidental world.

    Many have posted here that you should follow your feelings, heart etc on this and believe what best suits you. I'd suggest that the next time something surprises you with its beauty, when you find yourself filled with wonder at something - then just ask your heart then if it really believes that this is just an accident of atoms and chemicals acting and reacting with each other. And out of the bottom of your heart you will hear a still small voice of reason saying: God made this, he has presented it to me now so that I might be filled with holy wonder and that I might praise him for his wonderful works.

    Might I suggest that you read the book I have suggested in another thread called 'Heaven - The Heart's deepest longing' by Peter Kreeft.


  • #87
    Barnabas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Barnabas


    I am by no means an expert on the theory of evolution but one question:

    Exactly what part of the 'theory' of evolution has been proved beyond all doubt?
    Can we actually find two scientists that agree on how exactly life, and human life in particular, evolved.

    The book of genesis is not meant to be a scientific manual. How it tells us that God created all that exists is one dimension but the most important dimension is the one where it tells us THAT God created all that exists.

    I'd like to quote Pope Benedict XVI's homily at his inaugural Mass:

    [I]"Only when we meet the living God in Christ do we know what life is. We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."[/I]

    So while Christians may perhaps legitimately give ground to some of science's assertions and theories regarding evolution and its probability as the best we can come up with to explain things, it can never renounce that humanity and each and every individual human being is desired into existence by God, loved by him and held in existence by his love.
    If everything that there is exists because of the chance unfolding of events that could have unfolded in a million other ways, then what meaning has anything. So the atheist will then say that God as Creator is an invention or projection by religious people to give them meaning. But if that's the case then where do they get their meaning from and why don't billions of others follow them on their enlightened way?

    Don't discount that God is the creator of all that there is until you can discount absolutely that it is impossible. If it is possible that life can come from non-life -as evolution seems to suggest, that something comes from nothing all by itself - as evolution seems to suggest, (where did the matter which is in the universe come from?), then is it not just as possible also that God created all that exists.

    I think the problem most Christians have with evolution is not the theory itself but that theory taken to a radical conclusion, i.e. all that exists just exists. it wasn't created by God. And additionally there is certainly no room here for a human soul since all that there is must be material and a soul is immaterial.
    I don't know, but perhaps a modified version might be more acceptable to Christianity but certainly not this atheistic version of things.

    Scientific evidence seems to point in the direction of evolution. is that compatible with a Creator God and if so How? I'm not going to try to answer that question. But absence of evidence for God creating the world is not evidence of absence!

    There is as much in favour of God as Creator who has a purpose than the random unfolding of an accidental world.

    Many have posted here that you should follow your feelings, heart etc on this and believe what best suits you. I'd suggest that the next time something surprises you with its beauty, when you find yourself filled with wonder at something - then just ask your heart then if it really believes that this is just an accident of atoms and chemicals acting and reacting with each other. And out of the bottom of your heart you will hear a still small voice of reason saying: God made this, he has presented it to me now so that I might be filled with holy wonder and that I might praise him for his wonderful works.

    Might I suggest that you read the book I have suggested in another thread called 'Heaven - The Heart's deepest longing' by Peter Kreeft.


  • #88
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > There is as much in favour of God as Creator who has a purpose
    > than the random unfolding of an accidental world.

    If your only source of information is the bible, then this is a reasonable point of view. If, though, you read more recent accounts of life on earth - The Selfish Gene is thoughtful and accurate -- then you'll see why it's neither random nor accidental. It's quite interesting too.

    But you will have to read up, or join us over at the funny farm :)


  • #89
    Schuhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Barnabas wrote:
    Can we actually find two scientists that agree on how exactly life, and human life in particular, evolved.
    In fairness, there’s hardly unanimity on which book is the authoritative divine statement, let alone consensus among their different supporters on how they should be read.
    Barnabas wrote:
    So while Christians may perhaps legitimately give ground to some of science's assertions and theories regarding evolution and its probability as the best we can come up with to explain things, it can never renounce that humanity and each and every individual human being is desired into existence by God, loved by him and held in existence by his love.
    I know it doesn’t look like it, but I am actually trying to avoid starting another discussion on creationism. Just because of the points you are raising, I wanted to mention that I think Teilhard de Chardin is well worth reading as a reflection on the spiritual consequence of evolution, if you haven’t already done so. I particularly like his view that
    Man discovers that he is nothing else than evolution become conscious of itself. The consciousness of each of us is evolution looking at itself and reflecting upon itself.
    I’m, frankly, not sure that the whole personal Jesus thing does survive it. In Teilhard’s view
    Man is not the center of the universe as once we thought in our simplicity, but something much more wonderful-the arrow pointing the way to the final unification of the world. This is nothing else than the fundamental vision and I shall leave it at that.
    That said, he still related this vision to his Christian faith, even saying
    Christ is realized in evolution
    He leaves me at that point, but I can still share that vision of humanity as evolution become conscious of itself. I think the important point is that facing the implications of evolution does not require a retreat into denial and unreality by theists.


  • #90
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Barnabas wrote:
    I am by no means an expert on the theory of evolution but one question:

    Exactly what part of the 'theory' of evolution has been proved beyond all doubt?
    Can we actually find two scientists that agree on how exactly life, and human life in particular, evolved.

    Er, yes. In fact the consensus is so strong that Creationists claim it has to be a conspiracy...

    Evolution is accepted across science in its general form - that is to say, pretty much as you find it written out in school-books, or Wikipedia. Outside the biological sciences there is, perhaps unsurprisingly, more divergence of opinion than within them.

    As to the question of human evolution - again, biologists are not in any doubt that humans have evolved, and from ape-like ancestors. The question of exactly which fossil hominids appeared when, and which were ancestral, and to whom, is hotly disputed by various camps. The controversy over H. florensis is a good demonstration of the level of passion brought to bear. Of course, similar levels of passion are brought to bear on most academic subjects!
    Barnabas wrote:
    The book of genesis is not meant to be a scientific manual. How it tells us that God created all that exists is one dimension but the most important dimension is the one where it tells us THAT God created all that exists.

    I'd like to quote Pope Benedict XVI's homily at his inaugural Mass:

    [I]"Only when we meet the living God in Christ do we know what life is. We are not some casual and meaningless product of evolution. Each of us is the result of a thought of God. Each of us is willed, each of us is loved, each of us is necessary."[/I]

    So while Christians may perhaps legitimately give ground to some of science's assertions and theories regarding evolution and its probability as the best we can come up with to explain things, it can never renounce that humanity and each and every individual human being is desired into existence by God, loved by him and held in existence by his love.

    Which does not contradict evolution.
    Barnabas wrote:
    If everything that there is exists because of the chance unfolding of events that could have unfolded in a million other ways, then what meaning has anything. So the atheist will then say that God as Creator is an invention or projection by religious people to give them meaning. But if that's the case then where do they get their meaning from and why don't billions of others follow them on their enlightened way?

    We get our meanings from ourselves - and to be frank, most people aren't up to that, any more than most people wish to be self-employed.
    Barnabas wrote:
    Don't discount that God is the creator of all that there is until you can discount absolutely that it is impossible. If it is possible that life can come from non-life -as evolution seems to suggest, that something comes from nothing all by itself - as evolution seems to suggest, (where did the matter which is in the universe come from?), then is it not just as possible also that God created all that exists.

    Yes, that is so. No matter what science shows, it always remains the case that God may have created things directly or indirectly. Science cannot meaningfully examine such a possibility, so science cannot disprove it. It is entirely a personal decision as to whether one discounts the possibility.
    Barnabas wrote:
    I think the problem most Christians have with evolution is not the theory itself but that theory taken to a radical conclusion, i.e. all that exists just exists. it wasn't created by God. And additionally there is certainly no room here for a human soul since all that there is must be material and a soul is immaterial.
    I don't know, but perhaps a modified version might be more acceptable to Christianity but certainly not this atheistic version of things.

    The standard modifications are that: God guides evolution; that God set evolution up in such a way that the evolution of humanity was inevitable; that God set evolution up in such a way that something would evolve that He could love, and we happen to be it. The first and second are quite popular, the third I may have just made up now.

    It is worth remembering in this context that God's view of time is not the same as the human view. No human would be prepared to wait several billion years to get to the point, but I suspect that looks a bit different if you're eternal and omniscient. God may have enjoyed the Jurassic tremendously as a sort of prologue.
    Barnabas wrote:
    Scientific evidence seems to point in the direction of evolution. is that compatible with a Creator God and if so How? I'm not going to try to answer that question. But absence of evidence for God creating the world is not evidence of absence!

    "Point in the direction of" is something I would have to take issue with. The conclusions are much stronger than those found in a court of law - we are well beyond reasonable doubt at this stage, if you understand the science.
    Barnabas wrote:
    There is as much in favour of God as Creator who has a purpose than the random unfolding of an accidental world.

    To use your own phrase, evidence of absence and absence of evidence are not the same. That the world looks accidental to us means nothing.
    Barnabas wrote:
    Many have posted here that you should follow your feelings, heart etc on this and believe what best suits you. I'd suggest that the next time something surprises you with its beauty, when you find yourself filled with wonder at something - then just ask your heart then if it really believes that this is just an accident of atoms and chemicals acting and reacting with each other. And out of the bottom of your heart you will hear a still small voice of reason saying: God made this, he has presented it to me now so that I might be filled with holy wonder and that I might praise him for his wonderful works.

    Might I suggest that you read the book I have suggested in another thread called 'Heaven - The Heart's deepest longing' by Peter Kreeft.

    We nearly all feel such things, but only some of us feel obliged to ascribe agency to it. Humans frequently indulge in ascribing human emotions to things like teddy bears, and furniture (and of course God), so it appear we have some rather complicated wiring.

    Believe it or not, thinking that does not detract from the sense of wonder I feel at the world. Indeed, my wonder is deepened by the magnificent unlikeliness of my existence, and of the existence of beauty, and given poignance by my acceptance of the meaninglessness and brevity of my existence, and the finality of my death.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • #91
    Barnabas
    Closed Accounts Posts: 48 ✭Barnabas


    Scofflaw,

    Thank you for a well put, simple and measured response. I much prefer response to reaction.

    As I pointed out in my original post - i am no expert on the subject.

    Can I invite responses to the following aritcle:

    http://www.faith.org.uk/Publications/Magazines/Jan03/Jan03TheImprobabilityOfAtheism.htm


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