To all devout Christians

Killaqueen!!!

...I'd like to ask a few questions if I may.

How old are you? And when did you realise your strong faith? For example were you always a religious person or did you go through a process of not being a very strict Christian (eg not praying, not reading the Bible, not going to church..) to being a 'good Christian'?

I've never been a good Christian. I was born into a Protestant-ish family who didn't find it that important and though the schools I've been to were Christian, it was not a Catholic one and so we did not do mass, I never made my Confirmation or Communion. I barely go to Church and I've always wished that I was born into a strong Catholic family - y'know like all the great Irish people were...

I write this because I'm 15 and really questioning my faith. You must be thinking, 'what faith' but it's not that...I believe in God, I believe in His son Jesus Christ.....well at least I thought i did. Until I thought about evolution.

How can anyone really say that they are a devout Christian who believes in evolution? As much as I'd like to believe that evolution didn't happen..it's becoming more and more evident that it is. Science proves it.

I dunno what I'm getting at here but I'm just so confused about my religion. Are most people in this forum older than me, and so, maybe I have time to rebuild my faith or is it usual for a 15 year old to be doubting her faith? Most of my friends don't have this sort of trouble, although I just learned that one is actually an atheist, and I know a couple of my friends who are strongly involved with their church.

Zombrex

How can anyone really say that they are a devout Christian who believes in evolution?

While I'm not a devout anything, I would point out that a lot of Christians (including close friends) are quite happy to accept evolution, and pretty much anything else science throws out, and still believe in God, and in Jesus.

The trick is to not take the Bible so seriously. Its a book written by men about their god and about their religion. It is not a god itself.

A few links I hope you find helpful -

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_denom1.htm

The thing to remember also is just because others say you cannot be a Christian and accept evolution doesn't mean that is true. Your beliefs are your own. If it makes sense to you then that is what is important, not what others tell you to believe.

Dave!

Well my family was never religious save for forcing me to go to mass every Sunday til I was 15 or so. We also went at Christmas and still do.

So I had no faith to question really, but I began questioning existance and religion in general when I was 15 or 16 (same as yourself in fact) and came to the gut conclusion that there is no god -- based on the fact that the whole idea would make a lovely fairytale, and it's too simple to say "god did it", because previous civilisations have done the same (and we would laugh at that today -- if someone made a sacrifice to the sun -- and call them a wierdo).

Further frustration and confusion ensued for a few years and I started considering all the arguments for and against the existance of a deity, as well as educating myself a bit more on the subject.

I'm still doing both, and I'm still coming to the conclusion that the idea of god is a fairytale.

So I'm an atheist. Tricked ya into thinking I was gonna go back to my religious roots!

It's considered quite normal to be questioning your beliefs at your age, although in my experience it's not as regular as one might think! I seemed to be the only person in my classes who gave it a serious amount of consideration and time (other people were probably, y'know... having fun ), and I sometimes would try and get a conversation going about the supernatural or about religion, but most of my friends were unsure. Perhaps it's just the case that I was more outspoken about it than others (I ended up becoming something of a token atheist, not sure if that's a good thing to be or not), although I did get my then-girlfriend to start questioning stuff, so I was happy bout that!

So yeah, it's normal to go through these periods and I'm sure different people go through them at different times.

I'd recommend reading the arguments for both sides of the debate and giving them some serious thought and research, and coming to your own conclusions.

EDIT:

Also, to add on to what Wicknight said, if you do decide that you believe in a god, then you should either steer clear of organised religion altogether (only 1 can be the right one), or else read as many holy books as possible and decide which you find most plausible. If you just become a Christian by default, then you're neglecting the possibility that Muhammed is the true prophet.

Fallen Seraph

I'd say that it's incredibly normal for a 15 year old to doubt their faith. I also would be of the opinion that evolution and christianity are't mutually exclusive. And perhaps some good advice for someone in a crisis of faith is "Take that which is useful": if something rings true for you, consider it truth.

BrianCalgary

I was born and raised in the Anglican Church of Canada. I never doubted the existence of God. When I saw the complexity of living organisms I knew that there was no way possible that everything came about by chance.

The next stage wa to question the different denominations. On my street we had Catholics, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists and United Church of Canada. On Saturday mornings the Jehovah Witnesses came around and finally Donny Osmond (now I'm dating myself) was a Mormon, and I wondered what that was about.

I looked at all those to see what they said. To add a little to the mix, Buddhism and Hinduism was tossed in, we had those in our neighbourhood as well.

Afeter the examination I boiled it all down to one question, who is Jesus? I am convinced that He is God incarnate, He is the saviour of mankind and worthy of my worship. At about 20 God's ultimate plan of victory over evil was spelled out, now decision time, do I want to be on the winning team and spend an eternity in Heaven or do I want to go with the losers and spend eternity in Hell. I chose Christ, I chose Heaven.

As I study and read teh Bible, as I trust more and more of my life to Christ and see what He does, I am convinced that he is there and actively working through those that trust in him. He is more real than anything.

Suff

DaveMcG wrote:

If you just become a Christian by default, then you're neglecting the possibility that Muhammed is the true prophet.

Just to correct you on the term used..Not the True Prophet,....The Final Prophet.

I agree with DaveMG, before you make any decision about "Faith" research it and find the one that make sence to you. It will be a long one but at the end I hope you'll feel better that you did it.

Suff

My story...

I am 30, Muslim. Born in Damascus (Oldest city in the world!), Syria.

I didnt accept the teachings that were given to me by my schol teacher or my family. I always questioned my beliefs, the world around me. so I decided to research it for myself, I looked at the three "Heaveny Faiths" ...Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
I wanted to know why there are three heavenly faiths, whats the history of each, the doctorian of their faith, differences and similarities of them.

After some time (long) my faith in Islam grow stronger, the more I researched and read about it.

I do believe in Christ (PBUH) as the Messiah but not as the son of God, I believe in
the teachings of Moses (PBUH) and in his prophethood and I believe in Muhammad (PBUH) as the final Prophet with the final Message.

I cannot tell you what to choose, you have to look for yourself and please dont listen to people who'll say to you its a waste of time, its up to you to decide what to believe and how to live your life.
Hope this helps

Edit:
(PBUH): Peace Be Upon Him

Puck

I'm 24. I was raised a Catholic and went to a Catholic school. In my teenage years I stopped believeing in God. I think I always wanted to belive in God but the God presented to me in church just seemed too small. I disagreed with a lot of the Catholic church's teaching and looking back in history I saw a lot of so called Christian people doing evil things. I also found out that the Catholic church was not too nice to my mother and being an angry young man I didn't take that too well. I never had a problem with Jesus Himself, just what I perceived to be the way his followers acted. Plus I never once had grace explained to me, aparently it was amazing or something but back then nobody told my why or what that meant.

Just under 2 years ago I decided I'd just find out more about Jesus. I read and studied the Bible and realised that being a Christian doesn't mean following some organisation but following Christ. Fortunately I found some Christian friends who had the ability to shut up with all the Christian jargon and answer the questions I had.

One thing lead to another and I decided to trust and follow Christ myself.

Sangre

You're 15, I think it would be unusual if you didn't question your beliefs at some point.

Asiaprod

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I write this because I'm 15 and really questioning my faith. You must be thinking, 'what faith' but it's not that...I believe in God, I believe in His son Jesus Christ.....well at least I thought i did. Until I thought about evolution.

I would not get hung up on the issue of evolution. I am a Buddhist, Buddhists have stories of the creation and first man, but I believe in evolution as it makes sense to me, yet I consider myself to be a good Buddhist whatever that maybe. The Bible, while being a book full of good advice, requires that you make the distinction in what you think is true and what you think is just a metaphor. I would say that it is far more important for you now to concentrate on stabilizing your faith. As mentioned, do your research. Talk to people in positions within the various groups. Most important, listen to what your heart tells you and not your brain. Religion is personal, and only you can decide what is right for you.
Good luck in your search.:)

Killaqueen!!!

Hey, thanks for the replies.

The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us. I saw someone write; "Why would God create a monkey just so it would evolve into a human?" Science tells us that Homo Sapien Neandrathol's and Homo Sapien Sapien's evolved from Homo Erectus'. I don't want to bore you with all this (I just learnt about it today). Going way further back throughout all the animals to where it just began with bacteria - that isn't the God we love and know. He didn't create 'bacteria' to evolve over millions of years into eventually a human.

The first book of the Bible doesn't say anything about the Big Bang, nothing about evolution - it is the word of God (as Jesus believed it to be so) and it has nothing about this sort of stuff. God created Adam and Eve and life began through them.

So how can you be Christian and accept evolution? I don't pick away at certain beliefs in my religion - if I think about them logically there will be no beliefs left! I can't pick and chose...that's not what being a Christian is about.

Take other Science issues. Earth is just one planet of possibly millions. There must be life on other planets...hell, we're close to discovering that there's probably life on Mars too. No mention of that in the Bible. So is God just a god of our planet?

So if the Bible *is* false...why isn't Jesus? Jesus could be a myth, a story..He could be exaggerated...these stories were written by people years and years ago. How can I believe in this?

There's so much arguement against Christianity. And if there is no God - what is the point in living? Why would life so great/bad as this be happening to lead us to nothing - no afterlife...?

And then there's the age-old question - Why do bad things happen to good people? Why are there people dying every second in Africa? What did they do to anger God? Why did God let the Holocaust happen? etc. etc.

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't. And I don't know why at this particular time I am going through this crisis. Maybe I shoud just push it to the back of my mind and ignore it because if I do it will be the same as before. Before didn't make a difference, because I still didn't pray or go to church...

Zombrex

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us.

Depends on how you look at it. It certainly diminishes the idea that God created us in a flash of lightning as a fully formed species. But that is just one way that people think God created humans.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

Going way further back throughout all the animals to where it just began with bacteria - that isn't the God we love and know. He didn't create 'bacteria' to evolve over millions of years into eventually a human.

Says who exactly?

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

The first book of the Bible doesn't say anything about the Big Bang, nothing about evolution - it is the word of God (as Jesus believed it to be so) and it has nothing about this sort of stuff. God created Adam and Eve and life began through them.

I suppose the question is do you think the Bible, in its literal form, could be wrong? If you don't then yes you will probably always have a hard time with evolution.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I can't pick and chose...that's not what being a Christian is about.

Again, says who exactly?

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

So if the Bible *is* false...why isn't Jesus? Jesus could be a myth, a story

He could be. What do you believe?

I think the problem you are facing is you are looking to know You want someone to tell you that this is correct or that it is false. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. No one can tell you God does or does not exist. Ultimately it will always come down to your own person beliefs.

Dave!

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

Hey, thanks for the replies.

The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us. I saw someone write; "Why would God create a monkey just so it would evolve into a human?" Science tells us that Homo Sapien Neandrathol's and Homo Sapien Sapien's evolved from Homo Erectus'. I don't want to bore you with all this (I just learnt about it today). Going way further back throughout all the animals to where it just began with bacteria - that isn't the God we love and know. He didn't create 'bacteria' to evolve over millions of years into eventually a human.

The first book of the Bible doesn't say anything about the Big Bang, nothing about evolution - it is the word of God (as Jesus believed it to be so) and it has nothing about this sort of stuff. God created Adam and Eve and life began through them.

So how can you be Christian and accept evolution? I don't pick away at certain beliefs in my religion - if I think about them logically there will be no beliefs left! I can't pick and chose...that's not what being a Christian is about.

Take other Science issues. Earth is just one planet of possibly millions. There must be life on other planets...hell, we're close to discovering that there's probably life on Mars too. No mention of that in the Bible. So is God just a god of our planet?

So if the Bible *is* false...why isn't Jesus? Jesus could be a myth, a story..He could be exaggerated...these stories were written by people years and years ago. How can I believe in this?

There's so much arguement against Christianity. And if there is no God - what is the point in living? Why would life so great/bad as this be happening to lead us to nothing - no afterlife...?

And then there's the age-old question - Why do bad things happen to good people? Why are there people dying every second in Africa? What did they do to anger God? Why did God let the Holocaust happen? etc. etc.

Yeah these are all the same sort of questions I was asking myself a couple of years ago. I found it very frustrating having so many questions and no satisfactory answers.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't. And I don't know why at this particular time I am going through this crisis. Maybe I shoud just push it to the back of my mind and ignore it because if I do it will be the same as before. Before didn't make a difference, because I still didn't pray or go to church...

As to this part -- why don't you want to be an atheist? It's not a bad word, despite what some people want you to think. Do you mean because when you weren't thinking about this stuff, everything was wrapped up for you because you could just explain to yourself that "god did this for a reason"?

If that's the case then I can understand it to a degree.

But I find that once I embraced science as a way of explaining things, most of the questions were answered or else ceased to be relevent. That's not to say you should do as I do, because there's still the big question of "where did it all come from?" -- but apart from that, you can pretty much answer the questions that were whizzing about in your head quite easily and in a straight-forward manner. If you stop thinking of things as having profound, philosophical reasons to go with them, and just think of them as the natural processes which they are, then things make more sense.

If you leave god out of the equation, then your only major concern is "where did it all come from?"

Whereas if you believe in god, then you have to ask "where did it all come from?(god had to come from somewhere too), and then you've also got to worry about the reason for you being here, your mission in life, the after-life, etc.

This sounds like I'm trying to convert you, but I'm not -- this is just what I think.

Fallen Seraph

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

And if there is no God - what is the point in living? Why would life so great/bad as this be happening to lead us to nothing - no afterlife...?

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't..

I know you're trying to reaffirm your faith, but if this is your idea of the options of belief then perhaps it would be beneficial to ask in the atheist forum how they don't all end up killing themselves?

Killaqueen!!!

Wicknight wrote:

I think the problem you are facing is you are looking to know You want someone to tell you that this is correct or that it is false. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. No one can tell you God does or does not exist. Ultimately it will always come down to your own person beliefs.

Yeah, I guess. Thanks! Even the really happy Christians (as in happy with their faith) have a lot of questions...everyone does. I guess I just need to try and find a way of believing as Iof questio once did, instead ning everything.

And as for the 'says who' questions, well...I just never thought you could pick and chose beliefs...well you can do what you want with your own beliefs. It's just that when evolution is discussed amongst Christians the answer always comes up simalar to "just because evolution didn't occur doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Maybe God didn't create Adam and Eve and then that was it, but that doesn't mean Christianity is false." etc.

You know what I mean?

Ok, taking that I believe in God and that I 'believe' in evolution - what about the Bible? Is some of it right, and some of it wrong? How are we to decide? When, in a hundred years from now we find out x which proves x story in the Bible can't possibly be true? There'll be nothing left of the Bible at some stage.

Don't get me wrong, even for someone who doesn't believe in God I think the Bible is great - it has great life lessons, and it helps in time of need but...when aspects of the Bible are *clearly* false it just gets me confused.

Anyway, thanks for all your comments - there are a lot from atheists which is great to hear your advice on things. Sorry about the stupid title thread. It is, of course, open to everyone!

And although I know that many people aren't trying to convert me to atheism as such, but are suggesting I look into it, and offering their ideas...I just couldn't be an atheist.

gosimeon

Being a Christian is not about believing in creation, nor is it about taking every wordm of the Bible literally. Rather it is about accepting Jesus as you personal saviour and living by his word. I am a Christian - a follower of Christ. I am not a Creationist - a follower of the first few lines of Genesis and an ingorer of the world around me.

As for why God would create us through evolution - why not? If he made the universe and wanted a concious race of beings, perhaps that was the only way. God isn't the "click the finger, get something done straight away" character many feel he is. If God is real, he created nature. Nature has laws and one of them is that something cannot come from nothing, or a woman cannot come from a mans rib (maybe it was stem cell business, actually...)

Killaqueen!!!

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't. And I don't know why at this particular time I am going through this crisis. Maybe I shoud just push it to the back of my mind and ignore it because if I do it will be the same as before. Before didn't make a difference, because I still didn't pray or go to church...

You realise there are a lot of other options apart from christian or atheist, yes?

Killaqueen!!!

gosimeon wrote:

Being a Christian is not about believing in creation, nor is it about taking every wordm of the Bible literally. Rather it is about accepting Jesus as you personal saviour and living by his word. I am a Christian - a follower of Christ. I am not a Creationist - a follower of the first few lines of Genesis and an ingorer of the world around me.

As for why God would create us through evolution - why not? If he made the universe and wanted a concious race of beings, perhaps that was the only way. God isn't the "click the finger, get something done straight away" character many feel he is. If God is real, he created nature. Nature has laws and one of them is that something cannot come from nothing, or a woman cannot come from a mans rib (maybe it was stem cell business, actually...)

I suppose...

So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...how do we decide what is false (or maybe just metaphor as some put it) and what is not?

bluewolf wrote:

You realise there are a lot of other options apart from christian or atheist, yes?

Yes...but I was a Christian before - never mind being a 'good' Christian but I loved and believed in God. I don't believe in 20 other gods, or Muhammad, I'm not into veils, or turbans thank you very much...I know that if I am to have any religion at all it would be Christianity.

gosimeon

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I suppose...

So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...how do we decide what is false (or maybe just metaphor as some put it) and what is not?

Yeah I do.

We decide what is false by applying our knowledge to our study of the Bible. I am not going to tell you what parts are metaphors and what aren't - read the Bible you'll work it out!

As for your problem with evolution, here is a useful link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html

Scofflaw

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I suppose...

So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...how do we decide what is false (or maybe just metaphor as some put it) and what is not?

To say something is metaphor (or poetry) is hardly the same as saying it is false. Nor do we have any commentary from Jesus on whether he took the Bible literally.

cordially,
Scofflaw (atheist)

gosimeon

Do you sign "athiest" on cheques and all after you name?

Suff

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I suppose...
So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...

Ahh,...the bible was writen by men 80 years after Christ (PBUH), the first one "Book of Matthew" was the first writen one. what you might say.. Christ believed the message he had was from GOD.

Yes...but I was a Christian before - never mind being a 'good' Christian but I loved and believed in God. I don't believe in 20 other gods, or Muhammad, I'm not into veils, or turbans thank you very much...

Muhammad (PBUH) is not a GOD, he's a Messenger, Muslims don't worship him!
they worship the One GOD, the one GOD of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacoup, Joseph, Moses, Christ and Muhammad.

The Virgin Mary wore a Veil! Men in the MiddleEast (where the three faiths came from) wore what you call turbans! so if being from a certain religion compel's you to wear the same then should'nt all Christian women wear Veils and men wear trubans after all its what Christians wore at the time of Christ (PBUH) !??

I think if your going to reseach try to look beyond the images. look at the message.

I know that if I am to have any religion at all it would be Christianity

well,...first Q is What make you so sure? have you researched it? have you looked at other faiths?

Scofflaw

gosimeon wrote:

Do you sign "athiest" on cheques and all after you name?

Sure (although sometimes I abbreviate it to Ath.). I should probably point out that I'm one of the athiest atheists I know, though.

It's just so that killaqueen knows where I'm coming from. If the Devil is going to quote Scripture it's polite to let people sniff the brimstone.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gosimeon

Well in fairness to you, you offer one of the more balanced views on this forum.

Could you give me a brief overview of my you are an athiest and what you would define your beliefs as, outta interest...

Scofflaw

gosimeon wrote:

Well in fairness to you, you offer one of the more balanced views on this forum.

Could you give me a brief overview of my you are an athiest and what you would define your beliefs as, outta interest...

I'm actually not sure it's appropriate on Killaqueen's thread...I can answer it elsewhere, or if Killaqueen is OK with it, here.

Also, when you've been an atheist 30 years it's a surprisingly hard question to answer briefly!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sapien

Scofflaw wrote:

I'm actually not sure it's appropriate on Killaqueen's thread...I can answer it elsewhere, or if Killaqueen is OK with it, here.

Also, when you've been an atheist 30 years it's a surprisingly hard question to answer briefly!

Only if one lacks discipline

How about: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem! (... "God disappears in a puff of logic.")

Scofflaw

Sapien wrote:

Only if one lacks discipline

Ouch.

Sapien wrote:

How about: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem! (... "God disappears in a puff of logic.")

No, it definitely wasn't a cantrip that did it....

cordially,
Scofflaw

hairyheretic

Scofflaw wrote:

No, it definitely wasn't a cantrip that did it....

No, in that case it was the Babel Fish

BrianCalgary

Suff wrote:

Ahh,...the bible was writen by men 80 years after Christ (PBUH), the first one "Book of Matthew" was the first writen one. what you might say.. Christ believed the message he had was from GOD.

Aww, Suff, I wish you guys would check your facts and read up on your history before making such statements.

Dates of writing:
Mark 55-70
Matthew 50-70
Luke Prior to 62
John 80-100
Paul died in 64, therefore all of his letters were prior to 64
James died in 62
Peter in 65

Crucifixion of Christ @30.

Gospels written between 20 and 70 years after His death.

Suff

BrianCalgary wrote:

Aww, Suff, I wish you guys would check your facts and read up on your history before making such statements.
.............
Gospels written between 20 and 70 years after His death.

The point I was making that Christ (PBUH) didnt Believe in the Bible as a book, it didnt exist at his time! we know it's compiled after him, so to correct the term Christ (PBUH) believed that the message he had was from GOD.

in Islam we believe that its not a physical book but simply a set of teachings Christ (PBUH) Had which were later documented and called the (Injil, Injeel, Evangel now usually translated as Gospel)

edit: corrected a typo

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

Aww, Suff, I wish you guys would check your facts and read up on your history before making such statements.

Dates of writing:
Mark 55-70
Matthew 50-70
Luke Prior to 62
John 80-100
Paul died in 64, therefore all of his letters were prior to 64
James died in 62
Peter in 65

Crucifixion of Christ @30.

Gospels written between 20 and 70 years after His death.

Those dates are disputed by almost all scholars who are not avowedly religious.