To all devout Christians

Killaqueen!!!

...I'd like to ask a few questions if I may.

How old are you? And when did you realise your strong faith? For example were you always a religious person or did you go through a process of not being a very strict Christian (eg not praying, not reading the Bible, not going to church..) to being a 'good Christian'?

I've never been a good Christian. I was born into a Protestant-ish family who didn't find it that important and though the schools I've been to were Christian, it was not a Catholic one and so we did not do mass, I never made my Confirmation or Communion. I barely go to Church and I've always wished that I was born into a strong Catholic family - y'know like all the great Irish people were...

I write this because I'm 15 and really questioning my faith. You must be thinking, 'what faith' but it's not that...I believe in God, I believe in His son Jesus Christ.....well at least I thought i did. Until I thought about evolution.

How can anyone really say that they are a devout Christian who believes in evolution? As much as I'd like to believe that evolution didn't happen..it's becoming more and more evident that it is. Science proves it.

I dunno what I'm getting at here but I'm just so confused about my religion. Are most people in this forum older than me, and so, maybe I have time to rebuild my faith or is it usual for a 15 year old to be doubting her faith? Most of my friends don't have this sort of trouble, although I just learned that one is actually an atheist, and I know a couple of my friends who are strongly involved with their church.

Zombrex

How can anyone really say that they are a devout Christian who believes in evolution?

While I'm not a devout anything, I would point out that a lot of Christians (including close friends) are quite happy to accept evolution, and pretty much anything else science throws out, and still believe in God, and in Jesus.

The trick is to not take the Bible so seriously. Its a book written by men about their god and about their religion. It is not a god itself.

A few links I hope you find helpful -

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-god.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/ev_denom1.htm

The thing to remember also is just because others say you cannot be a Christian and accept evolution doesn't mean that is true. Your beliefs are your own. If it makes sense to you then that is what is important, not what others tell you to believe.

Dave!

Well my family was never religious save for forcing me to go to mass every Sunday til I was 15 or so. We also went at Christmas and still do.

So I had no faith to question really, but I began questioning existance and religion in general when I was 15 or 16 (same as yourself in fact) and came to the gut conclusion that there is no god -- based on the fact that the whole idea would make a lovely fairytale, and it's too simple to say "god did it", because previous civilisations have done the same (and we would laugh at that today -- if someone made a sacrifice to the sun -- and call them a wierdo).

Further frustration and confusion ensued for a few years and I started considering all the arguments for and against the existance of a deity, as well as educating myself a bit more on the subject.

I'm still doing both, and I'm still coming to the conclusion that the idea of god is a fairytale.

So I'm an atheist. Tricked ya into thinking I was gonna go back to my religious roots!

It's considered quite normal to be questioning your beliefs at your age, although in my experience it's not as regular as one might think! I seemed to be the only person in my classes who gave it a serious amount of consideration and time (other people were probably, y'know... having fun ), and I sometimes would try and get a conversation going about the supernatural or about religion, but most of my friends were unsure. Perhaps it's just the case that I was more outspoken about it than others (I ended up becoming something of a token atheist, not sure if that's a good thing to be or not), although I did get my then-girlfriend to start questioning stuff, so I was happy bout that!

So yeah, it's normal to go through these periods and I'm sure different people go through them at different times.

I'd recommend reading the arguments for both sides of the debate and giving them some serious thought and research, and coming to your own conclusions.

EDIT:

Also, to add on to what Wicknight said, if you do decide that you believe in a god, then you should either steer clear of organised religion altogether (only 1 can be the right one), or else read as many holy books as possible and decide which you find most plausible. If you just become a Christian by default, then you're neglecting the possibility that Muhammed is the true prophet.

Fallen Seraph

I'd say that it's incredibly normal for a 15 year old to doubt their faith. I also would be of the opinion that evolution and christianity are't mutually exclusive. And perhaps some good advice for someone in a crisis of faith is "Take that which is useful": if something rings true for you, consider it truth.

BrianCalgary

I was born and raised in the Anglican Church of Canada. I never doubted the existence of God. When I saw the complexity of living organisms I knew that there was no way possible that everything came about by chance.

The next stage wa to question the different denominations. On my street we had Catholics, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists and United Church of Canada. On Saturday mornings the Jehovah Witnesses came around and finally Donny Osmond (now I'm dating myself) was a Mormon, and I wondered what that was about.

I looked at all those to see what they said. To add a little to the mix, Buddhism and Hinduism was tossed in, we had those in our neighbourhood as well.

Afeter the examination I boiled it all down to one question, who is Jesus? I am convinced that He is God incarnate, He is the saviour of mankind and worthy of my worship. At about 20 God's ultimate plan of victory over evil was spelled out, now decision time, do I want to be on the winning team and spend an eternity in Heaven or do I want to go with the losers and spend eternity in Hell. I chose Christ, I chose Heaven.

As I study and read teh Bible, as I trust more and more of my life to Christ and see what He does, I am convinced that he is there and actively working through those that trust in him. He is more real than anything.

Suff

DaveMcG wrote:

If you just become a Christian by default, then you're neglecting the possibility that Muhammed is the true prophet.

Just to correct you on the term used..Not the True Prophet,....The Final Prophet.

I agree with DaveMG, before you make any decision about "Faith" research it and find the one that make sence to you. It will be a long one but at the end I hope you'll feel better that you did it.

Suff

My story...

I am 30, Muslim. Born in Damascus (Oldest city in the world!), Syria.

I didnt accept the teachings that were given to me by my schol teacher or my family. I always questioned my beliefs, the world around me. so I decided to research it for myself, I looked at the three "Heaveny Faiths" ...Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
I wanted to know why there are three heavenly faiths, whats the history of each, the doctorian of their faith, differences and similarities of them.

After some time (long) my faith in Islam grow stronger, the more I researched and read about it.

I do believe in Christ (PBUH) as the Messiah but not as the son of God, I believe in
the teachings of Moses (PBUH) and in his prophethood and I believe in Muhammad (PBUH) as the final Prophet with the final Message.

I cannot tell you what to choose, you have to look for yourself and please dont listen to people who'll say to you its a waste of time, its up to you to decide what to believe and how to live your life.
Hope this helps

Edit:
(PBUH): Peace Be Upon Him

Puck

I'm 24. I was raised a Catholic and went to a Catholic school. In my teenage years I stopped believeing in God. I think I always wanted to belive in God but the God presented to me in church just seemed too small. I disagreed with a lot of the Catholic church's teaching and looking back in history I saw a lot of so called Christian people doing evil things. I also found out that the Catholic church was not too nice to my mother and being an angry young man I didn't take that too well. I never had a problem with Jesus Himself, just what I perceived to be the way his followers acted. Plus I never once had grace explained to me, aparently it was amazing or something but back then nobody told my why or what that meant.

Just under 2 years ago I decided I'd just find out more about Jesus. I read and studied the Bible and realised that being a Christian doesn't mean following some organisation but following Christ. Fortunately I found some Christian friends who had the ability to shut up with all the Christian jargon and answer the questions I had.

One thing lead to another and I decided to trust and follow Christ myself.

Sangre

You're 15, I think it would be unusual if you didn't question your beliefs at some point.

Asiaprod

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I write this because I'm 15 and really questioning my faith. You must be thinking, 'what faith' but it's not that...I believe in God, I believe in His son Jesus Christ.....well at least I thought i did. Until I thought about evolution.

I would not get hung up on the issue of evolution. I am a Buddhist, Buddhists have stories of the creation and first man, but I believe in evolution as it makes sense to me, yet I consider myself to be a good Buddhist whatever that maybe. The Bible, while being a book full of good advice, requires that you make the distinction in what you think is true and what you think is just a metaphor. I would say that it is far more important for you now to concentrate on stabilizing your faith. As mentioned, do your research. Talk to people in positions within the various groups. Most important, listen to what your heart tells you and not your brain. Religion is personal, and only you can decide what is right for you.
Good luck in your search.:)

Killaqueen!!!

Hey, thanks for the replies.

The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us. I saw someone write; "Why would God create a monkey just so it would evolve into a human?" Science tells us that Homo Sapien Neandrathol's and Homo Sapien Sapien's evolved from Homo Erectus'. I don't want to bore you with all this (I just learnt about it today). Going way further back throughout all the animals to where it just began with bacteria - that isn't the God we love and know. He didn't create 'bacteria' to evolve over millions of years into eventually a human.

The first book of the Bible doesn't say anything about the Big Bang, nothing about evolution - it is the word of God (as Jesus believed it to be so) and it has nothing about this sort of stuff. God created Adam and Eve and life began through them.

So how can you be Christian and accept evolution? I don't pick away at certain beliefs in my religion - if I think about them logically there will be no beliefs left! I can't pick and chose...that's not what being a Christian is about.

Take other Science issues. Earth is just one planet of possibly millions. There must be life on other planets...hell, we're close to discovering that there's probably life on Mars too. No mention of that in the Bible. So is God just a god of our planet?

So if the Bible *is* false...why isn't Jesus? Jesus could be a myth, a story..He could be exaggerated...these stories were written by people years and years ago. How can I believe in this?

There's so much arguement against Christianity. And if there is no God - what is the point in living? Why would life so great/bad as this be happening to lead us to nothing - no afterlife...?

And then there's the age-old question - Why do bad things happen to good people? Why are there people dying every second in Africa? What did they do to anger God? Why did God let the Holocaust happen? etc. etc.

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't. And I don't know why at this particular time I am going through this crisis. Maybe I shoud just push it to the back of my mind and ignore it because if I do it will be the same as before. Before didn't make a difference, because I still didn't pray or go to church...

Zombrex

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us.

Depends on how you look at it. It certainly diminishes the idea that God created us in a flash of lightning as a fully formed species. But that is just one way that people think God created humans.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

Going way further back throughout all the animals to where it just began with bacteria - that isn't the God we love and know. He didn't create 'bacteria' to evolve over millions of years into eventually a human.

Says who exactly?

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

The first book of the Bible doesn't say anything about the Big Bang, nothing about evolution - it is the word of God (as Jesus believed it to be so) and it has nothing about this sort of stuff. God created Adam and Eve and life began through them.

I suppose the question is do you think the Bible, in its literal form, could be wrong? If you don't then yes you will probably always have a hard time with evolution.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I can't pick and chose...that's not what being a Christian is about.

Again, says who exactly?

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

So if the Bible *is* false...why isn't Jesus? Jesus could be a myth, a story

He could be. What do you believe?

I think the problem you are facing is you are looking to know You want someone to tell you that this is correct or that it is false. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. No one can tell you God does or does not exist. Ultimately it will always come down to your own person beliefs.

Dave!

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

Hey, thanks for the replies.

The thing about evolution is that it diminishes out the whole idea that God created us. I saw someone write; "Why would God create a monkey just so it would evolve into a human?" Science tells us that Homo Sapien Neandrathol's and Homo Sapien Sapien's evolved from Homo Erectus'. I don't want to bore you with all this (I just learnt about it today). Going way further back throughout all the animals to where it just began with bacteria - that isn't the God we love and know. He didn't create 'bacteria' to evolve over millions of years into eventually a human.

The first book of the Bible doesn't say anything about the Big Bang, nothing about evolution - it is the word of God (as Jesus believed it to be so) and it has nothing about this sort of stuff. God created Adam and Eve and life began through them.

So how can you be Christian and accept evolution? I don't pick away at certain beliefs in my religion - if I think about them logically there will be no beliefs left! I can't pick and chose...that's not what being a Christian is about.

Take other Science issues. Earth is just one planet of possibly millions. There must be life on other planets...hell, we're close to discovering that there's probably life on Mars too. No mention of that in the Bible. So is God just a god of our planet?

So if the Bible *is* false...why isn't Jesus? Jesus could be a myth, a story..He could be exaggerated...these stories were written by people years and years ago. How can I believe in this?

There's so much arguement against Christianity. And if there is no God - what is the point in living? Why would life so great/bad as this be happening to lead us to nothing - no afterlife...?

And then there's the age-old question - Why do bad things happen to good people? Why are there people dying every second in Africa? What did they do to anger God? Why did God let the Holocaust happen? etc. etc.

Yeah these are all the same sort of questions I was asking myself a couple of years ago. I found it very frustrating having so many questions and no satisfactory answers.

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't. And I don't know why at this particular time I am going through this crisis. Maybe I shoud just push it to the back of my mind and ignore it because if I do it will be the same as before. Before didn't make a difference, because I still didn't pray or go to church...

As to this part -- why don't you want to be an atheist? It's not a bad word, despite what some people want you to think. Do you mean because when you weren't thinking about this stuff, everything was wrapped up for you because you could just explain to yourself that "god did this for a reason"?

If that's the case then I can understand it to a degree.

But I find that once I embraced science as a way of explaining things, most of the questions were answered or else ceased to be relevent. That's not to say you should do as I do, because there's still the big question of "where did it all come from?" -- but apart from that, you can pretty much answer the questions that were whizzing about in your head quite easily and in a straight-forward manner. If you stop thinking of things as having profound, philosophical reasons to go with them, and just think of them as the natural processes which they are, then things make more sense.

If you leave god out of the equation, then your only major concern is "where did it all come from?"

Whereas if you believe in god, then you have to ask "where did it all come from?(god had to come from somewhere too), and then you've also got to worry about the reason for you being here, your mission in life, the after-life, etc.

This sounds like I'm trying to convert you, but I'm not -- this is just what I think.

Fallen Seraph

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

And if there is no God - what is the point in living? Why would life so great/bad as this be happening to lead us to nothing - no afterlife...?

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't..

I know you're trying to reaffirm your faith, but if this is your idea of the options of belief then perhaps it would be beneficial to ask in the atheist forum how they don't all end up killing themselves?

Killaqueen!!!

Wicknight wrote:

I think the problem you are facing is you are looking to know You want someone to tell you that this is correct or that it is false. Unfortunately it doesn't work like that. No one can tell you God does or does not exist. Ultimately it will always come down to your own person beliefs.

Yeah, I guess. Thanks! Even the really happy Christians (as in happy with their faith) have a lot of questions...everyone does. I guess I just need to try and find a way of believing as Iof questio once did, instead ning everything.

And as for the 'says who' questions, well...I just never thought you could pick and chose beliefs...well you can do what you want with your own beliefs. It's just that when evolution is discussed amongst Christians the answer always comes up simalar to "just because evolution didn't occur doesn't mean God doesn't exist. Maybe God didn't create Adam and Eve and then that was it, but that doesn't mean Christianity is false." etc.

You know what I mean?

Ok, taking that I believe in God and that I 'believe' in evolution - what about the Bible? Is some of it right, and some of it wrong? How are we to decide? When, in a hundred years from now we find out x which proves x story in the Bible can't possibly be true? There'll be nothing left of the Bible at some stage.

Don't get me wrong, even for someone who doesn't believe in God I think the Bible is great - it has great life lessons, and it helps in time of need but...when aspects of the Bible are *clearly* false it just gets me confused.

Anyway, thanks for all your comments - there are a lot from atheists which is great to hear your advice on things. Sorry about the stupid title thread. It is, of course, open to everyone!

And although I know that many people aren't trying to convert me to atheism as such, but are suggesting I look into it, and offering their ideas...I just couldn't be an atheist.

gosimeon

Being a Christian is not about believing in creation, nor is it about taking every wordm of the Bible literally. Rather it is about accepting Jesus as you personal saviour and living by his word. I am a Christian - a follower of Christ. I am not a Creationist - a follower of the first few lines of Genesis and an ingorer of the world around me.

As for why God would create us through evolution - why not? If he made the universe and wanted a concious race of beings, perhaps that was the only way. God isn't the "click the finger, get something done straight away" character many feel he is. If God is real, he created nature. Nature has laws and one of them is that something cannot come from nothing, or a woman cannot come from a mans rib (maybe it was stem cell business, actually...)

Killaqueen!!!

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I don't want to be atheist - I really don't. And I don't know why at this particular time I am going through this crisis. Maybe I shoud just push it to the back of my mind and ignore it because if I do it will be the same as before. Before didn't make a difference, because I still didn't pray or go to church...

You realise there are a lot of other options apart from christian or atheist, yes?

Killaqueen!!!

gosimeon wrote:

Being a Christian is not about believing in creation, nor is it about taking every wordm of the Bible literally. Rather it is about accepting Jesus as you personal saviour and living by his word. I am a Christian - a follower of Christ. I am not a Creationist - a follower of the first few lines of Genesis and an ingorer of the world around me.

As for why God would create us through evolution - why not? If he made the universe and wanted a concious race of beings, perhaps that was the only way. God isn't the "click the finger, get something done straight away" character many feel he is. If God is real, he created nature. Nature has laws and one of them is that something cannot come from nothing, or a woman cannot come from a mans rib (maybe it was stem cell business, actually...)

I suppose...

So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...how do we decide what is false (or maybe just metaphor as some put it) and what is not?

bluewolf wrote:

You realise there are a lot of other options apart from christian or atheist, yes?

Yes...but I was a Christian before - never mind being a 'good' Christian but I loved and believed in God. I don't believe in 20 other gods, or Muhammad, I'm not into veils, or turbans thank you very much...I know that if I am to have any religion at all it would be Christianity.

gosimeon

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I suppose...

So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...how do we decide what is false (or maybe just metaphor as some put it) and what is not?

Yeah I do.

We decide what is false by applying our knowledge to our study of the Bible. I am not going to tell you what parts are metaphors and what aren't - read the Bible you'll work it out!

As for your problem with evolution, here is a useful link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html

Scofflaw

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I suppose...

So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...how do we decide what is false (or maybe just metaphor as some put it) and what is not?

To say something is metaphor (or poetry) is hardly the same as saying it is false. Nor do we have any commentary from Jesus on whether he took the Bible literally.

cordially,
Scofflaw (atheist)

gosimeon

Do you sign "athiest" on cheques and all after you name?

Suff

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I suppose...
So you believe in the word of Jesus? Jesus believed the Bible to be the word of God...

Ahh,...the bible was writen by men 80 years after Christ (PBUH), the first one "Book of Matthew" was the first writen one. what you might say.. Christ believed the message he had was from GOD.

Yes...but I was a Christian before - never mind being a 'good' Christian but I loved and believed in God. I don't believe in 20 other gods, or Muhammad, I'm not into veils, or turbans thank you very much...

Muhammad (PBUH) is not a GOD, he's a Messenger, Muslims don't worship him!
they worship the One GOD, the one GOD of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacoup, Joseph, Moses, Christ and Muhammad.

The Virgin Mary wore a Veil! Men in the MiddleEast (where the three faiths came from) wore what you call turbans! so if being from a certain religion compel's you to wear the same then should'nt all Christian women wear Veils and men wear trubans after all its what Christians wore at the time of Christ (PBUH) !??

I think if your going to reseach try to look beyond the images. look at the message.

I know that if I am to have any religion at all it would be Christianity

well,...first Q is What make you so sure? have you researched it? have you looked at other faiths?

Scofflaw

gosimeon wrote:

Do you sign "athiest" on cheques and all after you name?

Sure (although sometimes I abbreviate it to Ath.). I should probably point out that I'm one of the athiest atheists I know, though.

It's just so that killaqueen knows where I'm coming from. If the Devil is going to quote Scripture it's polite to let people sniff the brimstone.

cordially,
Scofflaw

gosimeon

Well in fairness to you, you offer one of the more balanced views on this forum.

Could you give me a brief overview of my you are an athiest and what you would define your beliefs as, outta interest...

Scofflaw

gosimeon wrote:

Well in fairness to you, you offer one of the more balanced views on this forum.

Could you give me a brief overview of my you are an athiest and what you would define your beliefs as, outta interest...

I'm actually not sure it's appropriate on Killaqueen's thread...I can answer it elsewhere, or if Killaqueen is OK with it, here.

Also, when you've been an atheist 30 years it's a surprisingly hard question to answer briefly!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sapien

Scofflaw wrote:

I'm actually not sure it's appropriate on Killaqueen's thread...I can answer it elsewhere, or if Killaqueen is OK with it, here.

Also, when you've been an atheist 30 years it's a surprisingly hard question to answer briefly!

Only if one lacks discipline

How about: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem! (... "God disappears in a puff of logic.")

Scofflaw

Sapien wrote:

Only if one lacks discipline

Ouch.

Sapien wrote:

How about: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem! (... "God disappears in a puff of logic.")

No, it definitely wasn't a cantrip that did it....

cordially,
Scofflaw

hairyheretic

Scofflaw wrote:

No, it definitely wasn't a cantrip that did it....

No, in that case it was the Babel Fish

BrianCalgary

Suff wrote:

Ahh,...the bible was writen by men 80 years after Christ (PBUH), the first one "Book of Matthew" was the first writen one. what you might say.. Christ believed the message he had was from GOD.

Aww, Suff, I wish you guys would check your facts and read up on your history before making such statements.

Dates of writing:
Mark 55-70
Matthew 50-70
Luke Prior to 62
John 80-100
Paul died in 64, therefore all of his letters were prior to 64
James died in 62
Peter in 65

Crucifixion of Christ @30.

Gospels written between 20 and 70 years after His death.

Suff

BrianCalgary wrote:

Aww, Suff, I wish you guys would check your facts and read up on your history before making such statements.
.............
Gospels written between 20 and 70 years after His death.

The point I was making that Christ (PBUH) didnt Believe in the Bible as a book, it didnt exist at his time! we know it's compiled after him, so to correct the term Christ (PBUH) believed that the message he had was from GOD.

in Islam we believe that its not a physical book but simply a set of teachings Christ (PBUH) Had which were later documented and called the (Injil, Injeel, Evangel now usually translated as Gospel)

edit: corrected a typo

Sapien

BrianCalgary wrote:

Aww, Suff, I wish you guys would check your facts and read up on your history before making such statements.

Dates of writing:
Mark 55-70
Matthew 50-70
Luke Prior to 62
John 80-100
Paul died in 64, therefore all of his letters were prior to 64
James died in 62
Peter in 65

Crucifixion of Christ @30.

Gospels written between 20 and 70 years after His death.

Those dates are disputed by almost all scholars who are not avowedly religious.

Killaqueen!!!

Suff wrote:

Muhammad (PBUH) is not a GOD, he's a Messenger, Muslims don't worship him!
they worship the One GOD, the one GOD of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Jacoup, Joseph, Moses, Christ and Muhammad.

I knew that.

The Virgin Mary wore a Veil! Men in the MiddleEast (where the three faiths came from) wore what you call turbans! so if being from a certain religion compel's you to wear the same then should'nt all Christian women wear Veils and men wear trubans after all its what Christians wore at the time of Christ (PBUH) !??

I didn't know that

well,...first Q is What make you so sure? have you researched it? have you looked at other faiths?

What makes anyone so sure of their religion? I just knew (before I really thought about evolution, and 'proof' etc.) Worshipping God made me happy. Reading the Bible assured me. My friends father (a deeply religious man - a strong Catholic) abd I used to have great talks about God and he would teach me a lot about Christianity. I loved it...I love most aspects of Christianity. I'm sorry but the Muslim thing just isn't for me.

As for the veils, and turbans - I do not see why it is neccessary. In fact I don't like the idea of them at all. Where does it say in the Bible that all women at that time wore veils, and all men turbans? (Just wondering, I don't actually know what it says on this subject). And where does it say in the Bible, that all women SHOULD/MUST wear veils, and all men turbans? (I know it doesn't say this).

gosimeon wrote:

Yeah I do.

We decide what is false by applying our knowledge to our study of the Bible. I am not going to tell you what parts are metaphors and what aren't - read the Bible you'll work it out!

As for your problem with evolution, here is a useful link: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/10/1018_041018_science_religion.html

Thanks, that was a good read

Scofflaw wrote:

To say something is metaphor (or poetry) is hardly the same as saying it is false. Nor do we have any commentary from Jesus on whether he took the Bible literally.

cordially,
Scofflaw (atheist)

I know what a metaphor was, I was just being slightly cynical because when I posted that I was annoyed that, now that we know all this stuff about evolution, people were saying "it's just a metaphor". I thought it was being used as an excuse but I see now that some of the readings in the Bibles are not to be taken literally.

Suff

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I love most aspects of Christianity. I'm sorry but the Muslim thing just isn't for me.

No need to apologies , I hope you find the path you seek.

As for the veils, and turbans - I do not see why it is neccessary.
Where does it say in the Bible that all women at that time wore veils, and all men turbans? And where does it say in the Bible, that all women SHOULD/MUST wear veils, and all men turbans? (I know it doesn't say this).

Its not neccessary!!, it doesnt say anything in the Quran about wearing them.
I'm from Damascus, Syria I dont wear it, even my Great, Great, Great Grandfather didnt wear one!!!! only people from the desert were them, it depends on the culture.
it's not in the bible but its a custom thing in the MiddleEast like I mentioned before.

The point I was making,.. you seem to focus on the image more than the message of the faith so if we are going to do this then should'nt christian women wear the veil due to it being worn by the Virgin Mary and it being a custom of early Christians? why dont men wear sandals and robes like Christ (PBUH)?

Edit:
For the future,.. leave the image out and focus on the message.

Heart_N_Soul

Hi Killaqueen,
Im 23 and recently became a Christian (Born Again). Im from Dublin too, Tallaght to be precise. I wasn't raised to have any faith, my dad is totally against the whole thing but I always knew there had to be more to what was around us. I tried not to give it much thought cos to be honest it scared me, it was easier to ignore/deny Jesus than face up to him.
During the summer 2006 it hit me like a bomb about Jesus it all made sense to me over the course of 1 day (its a personal and long story so if ya wanna hear it PM me and ill write ya!)
To cut it short my boyfriend is an ex heroin addict, He gave up 10 years of hard drug addiction through Jesus and since i have joined the church that helped him (Victory Outreach) Iv seen so many lives saved.
There's no way that this happened without a devine intervention of God, he changed my life and the way I see things since I became a Christian...
Im not a "god freak" or a "bible basher" but I do have a strong faith and strong relationship with Jesus and im comfortable with that.
Iv also found peace inside myself where before I had alot of problems at home and that... im More happyier now like.
If ya wanna know more about Christianity vs Catholicism let me know...
Or if ya would like to know about the different Christian churches around Dublin id be more than happy to let ya know the story...
Emma:)

gosimeon

Heart_N_Soul wrote:

If ya wanna know more about Christianity vs Catholicism let me know...

Umm is that what this thread is about.

For you info, as a non Catholic I find the notion that Catholics aren't true Christians pathetic. They are, and they are, in my experience, more well up on Christianity than a lot of "born agains" I have come across. And Catholics are born again anyway....

Rant over.

OP, if you wish to chat more about faith or ask some questions feel free to get in touch.

Dave!

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

I just couldn't be an atheist.

I'm finding it slightly disconcerting the way you, having started a thread questioning whether or not you believe in god, keep writing off atheism. What exactly is your problem with it?

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

What makes anyone so sure of their religion? I just knew (before I really thought about evolution, and 'proof' etc.) Worshipping God made me happy. Reading the Bible assured me. My friends father (a deeply religious man - a strong Catholic) abd I used to have great talks about God and he would teach me a lot about Christianity. I loved it...I love most aspects of Christianity. I'm sorry but the Muslim thing just isn't for me.

As for the veils, and turbans - I do not see why it is neccessary. In fact I don't like the idea of them at all. Where does it say in the Bible that all women at that time wore veils, and all men turbans? (Just wondering, I don't actually know what it says on this subject). And where does it say in the Bible, that all women SHOULD/MUST wear veils, and all men turbans? (I know it doesn't say this).

Evidentally you know little or nothing about other religions!

You love most aspects of Christianity, god makes you happy, reading the Bible assures you....

Well guess what! Muslims love most aspects of Islam, allah makes them happy, and reading the Koran assures THEM!

If you read the Koran then perhaps you'd feel the same! Since you're dealing with the very foundation of your existance, I would think you'd put a bit more thought and research into the different faiths. What if god/allah/yahweh isn't the true god? What if Vishnu is? What if Jesus Christ isn't the true prophet, but Muhammed is? You'd be pretty much fooked in the afterlife then!

I don't mean to attack you, since you're going through what I've gone through and most people posting here probably... But as someone mentioned earlier, you just want someone to make a post that puts your mind at ease so that you can go back to being a Christian.

Be open-minded, since if it turns out you DO believe in a deity, this is the most important decision you can ever make in your entire life.

Excelsior

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

How old are you? And when did you realise your strong faith? For example were you always a religious person or did you go through a process of not being a very strict Christian (eg not praying, not reading the Bible, not going to church..) to being a 'good Christian'?

I am 25. I became a Christian when I was about 17 or 18. I was never in any way religious or particularly concerned with Christianity. In fact, I thought faith was a psychological crutch, that the Christian story was a series of fairy tales that had been exagerrated and frankly, there was no more relevance in space aliens abducting stupid Americans than in the life of Jesus. Both were equally improbable in my mind.

It was strange how I had held all these ideas without assessing them and because of some fascinating, intelligent, thoughtful, loving Christians, alot of arguments, many books read and finally the undeniable experience of God in my life, I accepted that I was no longer an atheist but I believed Jesus was God.

killaqueen wrote:

I write this because I'm 15 and really questioning my faith. You must be thinking, 'what faith' but it's not that...I believe in God, I believe in His son Jesus Christ.....well at least I thought i did. Until I thought about evolution.

From about the age of 12 my favourite writer (until I found CS Lewis) was a Harvard scientist called Stephen Jay Gould. He was crucial for the development of the modern evolution theory and so I came with the exact same questions about Christianity.

killaqueen wrote:

How can anyone really say that they are a devout Christian who believes in evolution? As much as I'd like to believe that evolution didn't happen..it's becoming more and more evident that it is. Science proves it.

I am a pretty committed Christian. I work for the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, I am involved in all kinds of social action issues, I have all the outer signs of being devout. (Only God can really see what is going on though). But I firmly believe that the changes that occur in the organisms all around us (including ourselves) are brought about through a process of evolution. Genesis 1-3, which are the chapters that deal with Creation were never meant to be a scientific explanation of how things came to be. They tell a much bigger story about why things came to be.

Let me put it to you this way. Say you come home from school one day and you are knackered and you just want a cup of tea. You go over to the corner to switch on the kettle to boil some water. Now how do you explain what is going on with that water? Well one explanation would have to do with the element and mains electricity and convection currents in the water and it could be drawn up in a diagram and represented in formulae. There is a higher level explanation however that has to do with the stress of that last class and the bit of a fight you had with the friend at lunchtime and the totally insane traffic on the bus home. That higher level explanation explains why the water is being boiled as well. You need the comfort and relaxation provided by a cup of tea before you get on with your day.

Neither is wrong. One can be represented by a diagram (the scientific process of heating water) but the other would have to be represented by art (some Picasso painting of you as you deal with all the crap that the worst possible day can throw at you).

I see the same thing at work in Genesis 1-3. It explains why we came to be (to know ourselves, each other and ultimately to know God) and why things aren't the way they should be (what theologians call "The Fall"). It doesn't explain the nuts and bolts, instead it tells the story.

killaqueen wrote:

I dunno what I'm getting at here but I'm just so confused about my religion. Are most people in this forum older than me, and so, maybe I have time to rebuild my faith or is it usual for a 15 year old to be doubting her faith? Most of my friends don't have this sort of trouble, although I just learned that one is actually an atheist, and I know a couple of my friends who are strongly involved with their church.

If you don't doubt your faith at 15, you are in as bad a position as someone at 25 who doesn't doubt their faith- you will end up solidifying and becoming dried up. Whether your faith is in Christianity or in atheism, you should always be bold enough to question it. So I think it is brilliant, (even if it is hard) that you would question things.

Depending on how well you get on with the friends who go to church, you could go to their youth group, if they have one. Their youth pastor will be specially trained to help you get the most of this season of doubt. It is a natural and positive thing. If you're not up for that, then do what I did- buy a CS Lewis book!

Excelsior

DaveMcG wrote:

I'm finding it slightly disconcerting the way you, having started a thread questioning whether or not you believe in god, keep writing off atheism. What exactly is your problem with it?

I find it slightly disconcerting that on the Christianity forum when a young struggling Christian admits to questioning her faith you seem to have a problem with belieiving in Jesus. What exactly is your problem with it?

DaveMcG wrote:

Well guess what! Muslims love most aspects of Islam, allah makes them happy, and reading the Koran assures THEM!

Well guess what! Atheists love most aspects of Arthur C. Clarke, Bertrand Russell makes them happy and reading Carl Sagan assures THEM!

What the hell is the point here Dave? All worldviews serve as worldviews?! What next? You'll tell me there is a genetic basis for maleness? The sky is blue? Puppies can be cute? What other astonishing insights do you have to share with Killaqueen?

Dave wrote:

you just want someone to make a post that puts your mind at ease so that you can go back to being a Christian.

Most. Patronising. Nonsense. Ever.

If I was still the mod around here you would be thrown out for such disrespect.

Dave wrote:

Be open-minded, since if it turns out you DO believe in a deity, this is the most important decision you can ever make in your entire life.

Be open-minded, since if it turns out you DO NOT believe in a deity, this is the most important decision you can ever make in your entire life.

Back to the OP:

KILLAQUEEN: You read someone ask "Why would God create a monkey just so it would evolve into a human?" Well they must not have been familiar with the story of God in the Old Testament then. Think about it- he calls Abraham out to slowly form Israel. He forms Israel to slowly create a beacon for the rest of the world. Then out of Israel comes Jesus to start the liberation project that is still unfolding. Don't confuse what I am saying with science or theology- but on an artistic level God seems to love to unfold things out... this is why so many Christians happily accepted Darwin's theories when they were first published.

I think you are right that if the Bible can't be trusted then Jesus can't be believed. But my doctor don't trust the Bible when he is diagnosing cancer. My friend who designs crash systems in cars doesn't trust the Bible for figuring out how the glass will shatter. He does rely on the Bible daily to teach him about how to relate to others, how to view himself and fundamentally, how to know God better. My doctor drinks in the Bible everytime he goes to Mass and he remembers why the Bible was written in the first place- to show us how badly God wanted a relationship with each of us.

Scofflaw wrote:

To say something is metaphor (or poetry) is hardly the same as saying it is false

Scofflaw, will you just become a Christian so I can give you a job?! I agree with this totally.

Scofflaw wrote:

or do we have any commentary from Jesus on whether he took the Bible literally

Superb point! Again, I totally agree. But all of Jesus' actions and words are founded on the assumption of the Hebrew Scriptures. By that, I mean he may not have taken them literally but he believed they were true to the extent that he was happy to die for them.

Asiaprod

Excelsior wrote:

If I was still the mod around here you would be thrown out for such disrespect.

IF! You could still be surly:)

Dave!

Goody, I wonder if you're a Christian :rolleyes: I don't know whether I should bother replying to your post since you intentionally misinterpreted what I said, but oh well, I'll give it a shot.

Excelsior wrote:

I find it slightly disconcerting that on the Christianity forum when a young struggling Christian admits to questioning her faith you seem to have a problem with belieiving in Jesus. What exactly is your problem with it?

I don't have a problem with believing in Jesus -- indeed, I believe in him -- but the OP apparantly doesn't know very much about the other mainstream religions (or indeed any less mainstream ones). How is she to know which is correct without researching them all? It only makes sense to do your homework before you choose to give your soul to the wrong god! Just looking out for my fellow boardsies.

Excelsior wrote:

Well guess what! Atheists love most aspects of Arthur C. Clarke, Bertrand Russell makes them happy and reading Carl Sagan assures THEM!

What the hell is the point here Dave? All worldviews serve as worldviews?! What next?

My point is that she was born into a Christian society, not a Muslim one. She doesn't have alot of information on Islam, so of COURSE the natural path to take was towards Christianity. If she was born in Iran then she would most likely be a Muslim.
So of course if Christianity is the only religion that you know, and you believe in a god, then you'll draw some comfort from it. But maybe if the OP reads the Koran all her questions will be answered! But you don't want her doing that, do ya Excelsior? Can't have her educating herself in case she makes the wrong decision.

Excelsior wrote:

Most. Patronising. Nonsense. Ever.

If I was still the mod around here you would be thrown out for such disrespect.

Good thing you're not a mod then. You'd probably have me thrown out for suggesting the OP read the Koran, anyway.

Excelsior wrote:

Be open-minded, since if it turns out you DO NOT believe in a deity, this is the most important decision you can ever make in your entire life.

Yeah, except for the fact that I spent the previous paragraphs arguing that she should keep researching and reading about religions, and choose the right one. In fact I spent 90% of the post you quoted, arguing from the position that the OP really is a theist (and was giving her advice on how to put her mind at ease) rather than an atheist -- and I only mentioned atheism at the top, to ask a question!

Any other issues with my post?

Scofflaw

Excelsior wrote:

Well guess what! Atheists love most aspects of Arthur C. Clarke, Bertrand Russell makes them happy and reading Carl Sagan assures THEM!

Alas, I had to stop reading them once I realised they were atheists - well, except Russell on subjects other than the ubiquitous teapot.

Excelsior wrote:

KILLAQUEEN: You read someone ask "Why would God create a monkey just so it would evolve into a human?" Well they must not have been familiar with the story of God in the Old Testament then. Think about it- he calls Abraham out to slowly form Israel. He forms Israel to slowly create a beacon for the rest of the world. Then out of Israel comes Jesus to start the liberation project that is still unfolding. Don't confuse what I am saying with science or theology- but on an artistic level God seems to love to unfold things out... this is why so many Christians happily accepted Darwin's theories when they were first published.

You might also take into consideration the idea that Adam and Eve were not literally the first man and woman, but rather represent the first people with whom God made a compact - that they were 'created' in the same sense as being 'born again'.

Excelsior wrote:

I think you are right that if the Bible can't be trusted then Jesus can't be believed. But my doctor don't trust the Bible when he is diagnosing cancer. My friend who designs crash systems in cars doesn't trust the Bible for figuring out how the glass will shatter. He does rely on the Bible daily to teach him about how to relate to others, how to view himself and fundamentally, how to know God better. My doctor drinks in the Bible everytime he goes to Mass and he remembers why the Bible was written in the first place- to show us how badly God wanted a relationship with each of us.

You won't find it telling you which way to vote either - these are the things of Caesar...

Excelsior wrote:

Scofflaw, will you just become a Christian so I can give you a job?! I agree with this totally.

Paris is worth a Mass, as they say. Thanks....wait....isn't that religious discrimination?

Actually, being an atheist, I am, of course, self-employed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sapien

Excelsior wrote:

Whether your faith is in Christianity or in atheism...

Bad, Excelsior! Bad!

Asiaprod

Scofflaw wrote:

You might also take into consideration the idea that Adam and Eve were not literally the first man and woman, but rather represent the first people with whom God made a compact - that they were 'created' in the same sense as being 'born again'.

That makes a lot more sense to me and goes with Excelsior's unfolding. However, I am a little confused by the word "Compact."What exactly does it mean in this context? A pact?

Scofflaw

Asiaprod wrote:

That makes a lot more sense to me and goes with Excelsior's unfolding. However, I am a little confused by the word "Compact."What exactly does it mean in this context? A pact?

Sorry, yes - a "compact" would be less formal than a contract. Moses' deal with God is much more of a contract. The word isn't particularly important, but the deal was very much less detailed than Moses'.

Bear in mind I'm an atheist! I'd appreciate Excelsior's comments - and indeed what I say should be treated with a long spoon without Christian commentary.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Schuhart

I’m another atheist, showing we’re the ones who really care about religion.

DaveMcG wrote:

Be open-minded, since if it turns out you DO believe in a deity, this is the most important decision you can ever make in your entire life.

Excelsior wrote:

Be open-minded, since if it turns out you DO NOT believe in a deity, this is the most important decision you can ever make in your entire life.

Just to show there’s always one, I’d actually query if the ‘decision’ to believe in a God is actually that vital at the end of the day. I’d suspect that any religion has within it the potential to allow people to achieve insight, just as no religion can claim a monopoly on the truth.

The OP doesn’t sound to me like someone who is deeply disenchanted with her current faith. She just wants to understand it better. I’d agree with Excelsior that a discussion with a pastor from her own faith would be a reasonable next step. Ultimately, she’ll either find her questions can be satisfied within her existing faith, or not.

robindch

> Actually, being an atheist, I am, of course, self-employed.

Interesting -- so am I (largely, anyway; being one half of a two-man outfit). I wonder if atheists are disproportionately self-employed, as we're disproportionately sword-owning?

Scofflaw

robindch wrote:

> Actually, being an atheist, I am, of course, self-employed.

Interesting -- so am I (largely, anyway; being one half of a two-man outfit). I wonder if atheists are disproportionately self-employed, as we're disproportionately sword-owning?

Quickly, Batman - to the polls!

swiftly,
Scofflaw

Tim Robbins

BrianCalgary wrote:

Aww, Suff, I wish you guys would check your facts and read up on your history before making such statements.

Dates of writing:
Mark 55-70
Matthew 50-70
Luke Prior to 62
John 80-100
Paul died in 64, therefore all of his letters were prior to 64
James died in 62
Peter in 65

Crucifixion of Christ @30.

Gospels written between 20 and 70 years after His death.

The Bible was written 300 years after the time of Christ. They selected which texts and scriptures of the times were ok and got rid of the rest.
There is much speculation and debate about the times you have listed for individual scriptures but no scientific evidence.
Just as there is much speculation about when the Gospel of Daniel was written, but no scientific evidence.
As far as I know, there is no carbon dating on any of the above scripture which yields those dates for any of those scriptures. Those dates are based on the names of Kings being referenced etc in the scriptures - they are all guestimates not actual dates.

Schuhart

Tim Robbins wrote:

The Bible was written 300 years after the time of Christ.

Would 'the Bible was compiled' be a better way of putting it? i.e. as you say, the process was essentially deciding which texts were to be deemed definitive, but those texts were presumably already written.

I also have a memory of reading somewhere (apologies on the delightful vagueness) that someone even attempted to put together a single definitive Gospel account based on the various texts in circulation, but this was abandoned.

Scofflaw

Schuhart wrote:

Would 'the Bible was compiled' be a better way of putting it? i.e. as you say, the process was essentially deciding which texts were to be deemed definitive, but those texts were presumably already written.

I also have a memory of reading somewhere (apologies on the delightful vagueness) that someone even attempted to put together a single definitive Gospel account based on the various texts in circulation, but this was abandoned.

Thomas Jefferson attempted to put the moral teachings of Jesus together from the Gospels minus the supernatural aspects.

"Titian attempted to synthesise the four accepted Gospels, which had already been earmarked by the Pauline Church as their official Scriptures, in the second century CE (the Diatessaron of Titian written in about 170 a.d). In this Gospel, Titian used 96% of John's Gospel, 75% of Mathew's Gospel, 66% of Luke's Gospel and 50% of Mark's Gospel. The rest he rejected."

Not Titian the painter!

cordially,
Scofflaw

Killaqueen!!!

DaveMcG wrote:

I'm finding it slightly disconcerting the way you, having started a thread questioning whether or not you believe in god, keep writing off atheism. What exactly is your problem with it?

I find it slightly disconcerting that a young Christian like myself, who is having trouble with her faith is being attacked by an atheist who clearly want to convert her.

As for the rest of your post questioning why I wouldn't consider the Islam faith. It is not for me. Why? Apart from many reasons, why would I want to convert to a faith that shows women very little respect?

As for the other religions you mention - I do not worship gods I worship God. I know you are getting quite frustrated with me but I am getting quite frustrated with you too so maybe, if your not going to give me any more advice than to 'look into other religions and atheism' (which I am accepting) maybe you shouldn't give me any advice at all.

Suff wrote:

No need to apologies , I hope you find the path you seek.

Its not neccessary!!, it doesnt say anything in the Quran about wearing them.
I'm from Damascus, Syria I dont wear it, even my Great, Great, Great Grandfather didnt wear one!!!! only people from the desert were them, it depends on the culture.
it's not in the bible but its a custom thing in the MiddleEast like I mentioned before.

The point I was making,.. you seem to focus on the image more than the message of the faith so if we are going to do this then should'nt christian women wear the veil due to it being worn by the Virgin Mary and it being a custom of early Christians? why dont men wear sandals and robes like Christ (PBUH)?

Edit:
For the future,.. leave the image out and focus on the message.

I just do not see the point in wearing veils or whatever it may be, simply because thats what the case was years and years ago.

And thanks for being polite about it because I can see where I might come off as arrogant because at times I do look at the image that is often portrayed of some religions.

I know I'm going to get flamed for this but as an example; the Islam faith. I may not be an expert on it but I know of certain things I do not like. The fact that Muslim men can have many wives, that women need permission to leave the house etc. The way women are treated is highly unfair.