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Do you believe......

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 379 ✭✭legologic


    I'm an Atheist, Mum's a theologian. Christmas was fun!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    Sangre wrote:
    No, phyiscs can't prove God false.

    That's the only point I'm trying to make. The actual process of having faith is entirely different, and hardly something suited to this discussion. For all intents and purposes, having faith is scientifically illogical. But so are lots of things. An example I came across recently, and reasonably appropriate given events in the middle east:
    Imagine a man going to be executed. He, blindfolded, is going to be shot by 10 men standing at a point fifteen feet from him. Each man shoots, and each man simultaneously misses.
    The blindfolded man ought to place more trust in the probability that the guns were empty rather than the probability of a bad aim by 10 men shooting simultaneously at him. This goes back to what I mentioned earlier about the probability. The probability of "nothing" (no bullets) is greater than the probability of "something" (bullets). Yet in that man's case, something could and did exist, and so it is with Allah and the universe. To think that the guns were loaded is illogical, therefore, but not a fallacy.
    No, physics can certainly say that religion is a fallacy inside the universe, I already stated this. We can prove that people can't walk on water or bring people back from life or be re-incarnated etc., (I don't know any Muslim miracles).

    It would be within the power of an omnipotent being to choose the current configuration of the universe to evolve as it has at some point billions of years ago. Everything happens on this Earth, at least, with underlying order. winds that blow today affect tomorrow's floods. The dopamine dynamics in your brain that makes you inherited from your parents that makes you "fuller" earlier, causing you to leave a restaurant early and get knowcked down by a passing milkfloat and die - who is to say thatis not divine design? Just because we cannot see the hand of Allah, does not mean he does not intervene. Of course an omnipotent force could intervene, it is he who has laid plans for man's life within the universe from the day of Adam's creation to the last day.
    Actually, this is one of the biggest fallacies claimed by theists. Neo-Darwinism Evolution is actually one of the most supported theories in science
    I don't agree that it is one of the most supported theories in science. All science is theory, and most of it we can be very sure of. We cannot, relatively speaking, be as sure about evolution as we are about things like measurements of planetary orbit or the speed of light. Evolution is absolutely very uncertain still.
    I am not as much in love with probability as I probably seem, but if we go back to it just one more time: look at pprobability in evolution.
    Start of by imagining that to have a structure fitted to its environment, the organism needs two changes to itself.
    These two changes may be two point mutations (a thing must change two times before it fits then environment) or two changes to two already present structures that do different jobs and which will make them come together to perform one new role.
    That simultaneous occurrence of the two changes that are needed, on the basis of Neo-Darwinism/ MES/ whatever name you want to give it, has an extremely small probability, this is very mysterious.
    The probability of two statistically independent events is the product of each probability. Becasue New darwinism preaches change with really no foresight to the ultimate ambition of the organism, it involves statistical indeopendence of the events.

    What about where one thing changes after the other? This itself has issues attached. there is a problem, is there not, if a change occurs without the other? where is the "selfish gene" that Dawkins talks about now? I have never heard him explain this.
    So... if we accept new darwinism in this light, as scientistsm, are we also going to accept that the 'slight variations' that are intedned to follow one another occur "In faith" (what is the latin?) - as collatoral - for the future - promise in ultimate deliverance. It smacks of divinity, doesn't it!

    However rejecting science out of hand is not a good practice imo. Allah describes his believers as "Aolou al-Albab" - the people of good intellect (rough trans.). Therefore we need to examine deeply the signs of Allah, and do not pay attention to science only when it appears to confirm our preexisting beliefs. So evolution is deserving of analysis and debate and conclusion and reanalysis. But one must allow for all the debate, not just the bits that evolutionists are comfortable with.;
    The Qur'an (or the direct word of God) also claims that the Sun revolves aroudn the Earth
    Oh really, then I must be missing something. Everbody must believe the sun rotates, but the Qur'an says it rotates around the Earth? Using a trustworthy link, do you want to try prove this to us?
    Actually it seems likely that Einstein had it partly right along. Although I'm not sure what you're acutally trying to show with the above. How does it relate to religion or the Qur'an?

    My point is that the Qur'an clearly says in the quote I provided that the universe is steadily expanding.
    Newton and Einstein both denied this. What do you mean Einstein was partially right all along? He was wrong in saying the universe does not expand, he was wrong in employing the cosmological constant in his calculations.
    Miracles mean a breaking of the laws of physics. Of course a physicist will disregard it.

    I disagree with you here. I consider the fact that the nature of the expanding universe appearing in the Holy Qur'an at a time when people believed it to be static, and the fact that it was only found to be expanding in 1929, to the surprise of Einstein and Newtonian physics, is miraculous. If a physicist were to disregard the Qur'an in that regard, it would be quite silly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    InFront wrote:
    My point is that the Qur'an clearly says in the quote I provided that the universe is steadily expanding.

    No it doesn't. It can be interpreted to mean that, but it doesn't outright say the universe is expanding.

    You could take it to mean that through force, they will expand their empire, for example. That's the thing about all holy writings. You can interpret them to mean anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    InFront wrote:
    For a variety of reasons, I believe that atheism is an impossible philosophy, that Allah could exist, that he does exist, and by and that he exists in the manner which Muslims understand.
    give me an example of these reasons. do you honestly belive that you could have been born to catholic parents and still believe so strongly in allah. my point being that your brain is wired to have faith and what you have faith in is only an accident of birth
    InFront wrote:
    He uses the word 'God' a lot, and does not rule out the possibility of a universe created by God (nobody can do so according to science).
    just as i don't rule out the flying spaghetti monster
    InFront wrote:
    However, I certainly have not come across him using the phrase "quite likely" in any of his books or articles with respect to that point. I would be very surprised if he had ever said such a thing.
    and only last week someone was blasting him for using that word. to be precise he used the word probably
    InFront wrote:
    Statistical evidence is only a measure of probability, not certainty. It is not evidence or proof as we know it.
    it is evidence, but not proof, which is my point. dawkins said that alien life could exist because it is statistically likely. this is belief based on statistical evidence and it is scientific valid, unlike belief based on what some guy in a frock tells you.

    of course, when you pretend that he said supernatural life exists as you did, its easy to make him look stupid.


    most of our science comes from statistical evidence. for example, scientists put a voltage across a wire thousands of times and measured the current each time. after these thousands of tries, they graphed the results and found the graph was roughly linear, of course with most points not actually on the straight line. they drew the "best fit" line and from this they got the identity:
    V=IR

    are you suggesting that this statistical approach is scientifically invalid?
    InFront wrote:
    And remember that Dawkins is not a remarkable scientist like Hawkins, Newton or Einstein (the latter two actively believed in a God).
    einstein believed in a creator who had no further involvement with the development of the universe. a creator is very different to a god in the way allah or the christian god is. he saw no reason to believe in the christian god over any other god. he saw that for what it is, an attempt by primitive people to explain the world around them.
    I say that because he has not contributed to academic scientific knowledge experimentally nor theoretically.
    He remains, ultimately, a popular science writer who happens to have a second class degree in Zoology. In that context, he is most notable as a communicator, somebody who makes science accessible to the everyday Joe Soap at a bus stop.
    that's it. attack the poster, not the post. a tried and testing technique used by someone who can't prove the other guy wrong


  • Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Will Shy Lightning


    I'm a buddhist, believe rebirth. Don't care about gods.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    he saw no reason to believe in the christian god over any other god. he saw that for what it is, an attempt by primitive people to explain the world around them.


    What you actually should have said was:
    "In my opinion it [belief in a Christian God] was an attempt by primitive people to explain the world around them"

    I'm not a 'primitive' person, and yet I believe in a Christian God.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 12,411 Mod ✭✭✭✭Kingp35


    humanji wrote:
    No it doesn't. It can be interpreted to mean that, but it doesn't outright say the universe is expanding.

    You could take it to mean that through force, they will expand their empire, for example. That's the thing about all holy writings. You can interpret them to mean anything.

    This is a very good point. I always find it very annoying when religious people quote Bible or Qu'ran verses and say that they mean a certain thing when they could quite easily mean anything you want it to mean. The verse quoted does not mention the Universe at all so why do you say that this means that the Universe is expanding?

    There is also the other argument of what parts of scripture should be taken literally and which parts are to be taken metaphorically. To illustrate my point perfectly is the fact that Christians fight among themselves as to what the book of Genisis means. After all this time they cant decide whether it is to be taken literally or methaphorically.

    Scripture can be used to say or prove whatever you want it to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 175 ✭✭exCrumlinBoyo


    Do I believe in a God and Heaven? My straight up answer is yes I do. I believe in a higher power, but I am afraid that organized religion in many forms has turned me away from the “higher power” and the afterlife, but yet I am afraid not to believe. Life as it is at face value is a tough road that we walk upon, whether we are rich poor, ugly, beautiful. We all have our battles and daemons to deal with. I often ask myself this question!? Am I afraid not to believe in an afterlife? Would I be satisfied with my life and will I be satisfied with my life when I am on my death bed, and that is it? Nothing else. The short answer would be F uck no, I hope we are passing through.

    I don’t read the bible and I believe in evolution and not Adam and eve. I believe they existed, but did not create us humans who have asked the same old question time after time as we are asking now.

    When I think of mother earth sitting in space in our solar system, on the cusp of other planetary system and with space being infinite as far as we know, it blows my mind. Each one of us is just a speckle of dust in comparison to the rest of the world and the universe and what ever lies beyond what we have no discovered. With the universe being one huge unexplored mass which has yet to be discovered and explored the possibilities are endless. There is so much we do not know about. My point I am leading to is, I believe there has to be a higher power who controls all of that, or again, am I afraid not to believe.

    We has humans, are born onto this planet with out a notion of who we are or where we came from. From the moment of conception we are forced into situations in which we have no control. Who decides, that when we are conceived in our mothers wombs, where our destiny lays? What are some people born into poverty, abuse and are destined to have a life of misery where as some people are born into wealth or into a comfortable life. Something in my opinion controls each of our life paths and where we will end up.

    Why is our planet the only one inhabitable? When we stop and get out of the rat race of life and look at out planet, its like an artist canvas? So many beautiful, wonderful and naturist things for us to see an do, but yet we tend to ignore them until its too late.

    Over all I do believe in a higher power and how you conduct your life on earth will be reflected in an afterlife. Or, again is it wishful thinking or am I afraid not to believe?

    When I have doubt in my faith, I think of Padre Pio and the stigmata cases. I think of the supernatural world, which for me there has been enough cases and evidence for me to believe in the afterlife.

    I could go on and on and I am probably not making much sence, but that is exactly what happens when the questions is put. My faith is probably at 80%


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Am I afraid not to believe in an afterlife?

    If you were not afraid, would it be easier not to believe?
    Would I be satisfied with my life and will I be satisfied with my life when I am on my death bed, and that is it? Nothing else. The short answer would be F uck no, I hope we are passing through.

    If you are not happy with your life, change it. Just in case there's nothing else...
    I believe there has to be a higher power who controls all of that

    Why has there to be? It could have just happened that way all by itself
    Who decides, that when we are conceived in our mothers wombs, where our destiny lays? What are some people born into poverty, abuse and are destined to have a life of misery where as some people are born into wealth or into a comfortable life.

    Luck of the draw is all that is.
    Something in my opinion controls each of our life paths and where we will end up.

    How do you come to that conclusion?
    Why is our planet the only one inhabitable?

    How do you know that? It's a very big universe, anything is possible.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    humanji wrote:
    No it doesn't. It can be interpreted to mean that, but it doesn't outright say the universe is expanding.

    What do you mean it doesn't say that:
    And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.

    :confused:

    Another link here
    and only last week someone was blasting him for using that word. to be precise he used the word probably
    Hawking said that? The point I was making was about Hawking, are you sure you aren't getting yourself mixed up with Dawkins?
    Hawking is the theoretical physicist, Dawkins is the popular science author...
    an attempt by primitive people to explain the world around them.

    Hopw many of today's scientists who believe in a the Christian/ Muslim or jewish version of God would you describe as primitive people?
    that's it. attack the poster, not the post. a tried and testing technique used by someone who can't prove the other guy wrong

    If you go back and look at your post, I don't think that reply was meant for me? If it was you seem to be getting confused over who Dawkins is. He is not Hawking, and he is not a poster on boards.ie


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Beruthiel wrote:
    It's a very big universe, anything is possible.


    Even God:confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    InFront wrote:
    Hawking said that? The point I was making was about Hawking, are you sure you aren't getting yourself mixed up with Dawkins?
    Hawking is the theoretical physicist, Dawkins is the popular science author...
    fair enough. i thought you were talking about dawkins

    What you actually should have said was:
    "In my opinion it [belief in a Christian God] was an attempt by primitive people to explain the world around them"

    I'm not a 'primitive' person, and yet I believe in a Christian God.
    no, in fact it was. even the jews admit that genesis was an attempt at this

    InFront wrote:
    Hopw many of today's scientists who believe in a the Christian/ Muslim or jewish version of God would you describe as primitive people?
    i used the past tense "was". it was originally thought up by primitive people who didn't understand the world around them. people believe now because their parents tell them its true and they never scratched the surface to find the mind bogglingly massive inconsistencies. look up dawkins "celestial teapot" argument to find out why people believe nowadays
    InFront wrote:
    If you go back and look at your post, I don't think that reply was meant for me? If it was you seem to be getting confused over who Dawkins is. He is not Hawking, and he is not a poster on boards.ie

    in fact it was meant for you. i was using the boards related expression "attack the poster, not the post" to prove a point. i realise richard dawkins is not a boards member. you described dawkins as "a popular science writer who happens to have a second class degree in Zoology" among other things. this may or may not be true. however, its completely irrelevant to whether he's right or not. debate him on what he says, not who he is


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,119 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    No, not if the term god is a paradox, which it is to me. Nothing could possibly exist that I would worship. Nothing could exist that was not just a 'powerful alien'.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    No, not if the term god is a paradox, which it is to me. Nothing could possibly exist that I would worship. Nothing could exist that was not just a 'powerful alien'.
    indeed, an omnipotent being is a logical fallacy. on omnipotent would be able to make an immovable object. but if the object is immovable, then he cannot move it. if he can move it, then it is not immovable.

    the best that could be done is an object that is immovable by everyone except himself.

    if there are exceptions, he is not omnipotent


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Even God:confused:

    Perhaps I should have said anything sciencetifically based, is possible.
    God cannot be proven to exist by science or logic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    people believe now because their parents tell them its true and they never scratched the surface to find the mind bogglingly massive inconsistencies. look up dawkins "celestial teapot" argument to find out why people believe nowadays

    Firstly that theory does not belong to Dawkins, he took it from a person who I would consider a personal hero in mathematics, and humanitarianism, and is my all time favourite mathmatician, Bertrand Russell.
    Dawkins attempts to copy and paste Russell's genius in "Devil's Chaplain" with little success.
    in fact it was meant for you. i was using the boards related expression "attack the poster, not the post" to prove a point. i realise richard dawkins is not a boards member. you described dawkins as "a popular science writer who happens to have a second class degree in Zoology" among other things.

    AFAIK, an attack on Dawkins' intelligence is not prohibited on these boards. Unlike a poster, I don't see why calling him a fool is anything other than impolite.
    I am not saying that he is a fool, or a dumbass. I'm simply stating the extent of his scientific credibility and the fact that he is not himself a noteworthy contributor to scientific academia. He is, first and foremost, a popular communicator and writer. He writes books that are attarctive to Dublin Bus drivers and people waiting for a train, and gives his opinion on scientific theories.
    There is nothing "new" in his books and articles, no scientific discoveries like Hawkins or Einstein, and no attempt at that. That is the simple point I am making to people who would have us believe that Dawkins is some sort of genius scientist. At most he is a philosopher.
    I find the heroism that sorrounds Dawkins raises a smile with some people.

    Atheists who take unproven theory as proven evidence, and bowing to the wisdom of a prophet of that theory, without admitting they are merely admiring, or placing a trust in a faith.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    InFront wrote:
    Firstly that theory does not belong to Dawkins, he took it from a person who I would consider a personal hero in mathematics, and humanitarianism, and is my all time favourite mathmatician, Bertrand Russell.
    Dawkins attempts to copy and paste Russell's genius in "Devil's Chaplain" with little success.
    again, belittling him without actually proving anything. i've seen a video of him on youtube explaining it. i think he did it quite successfully
    InFront wrote:
    AFAIK, an attack on Dawkins' intelligence is not prohibited on these boards.
    i never said it was, i just said its a textbook bad arguing technique
    InFront wrote:
    Unlike a poster, I don't see why calling him a fool is anything other than impolite.
    its also a bad arguing technique as well as being impolite
    InFront wrote:
    I am not saying that he is a fool, or a dumbass. I'm simply stating the extent of his scientific credibility
    no you're not. you're attempting to descredit his theories without actually mentioning them. describing him as having "a second rate degree in zoology" is not simply "stating his scientific credibility".
    InFront wrote:
    and the fact that he is not himself a noteworthy contributor to scientific academia.
    he never claimed to be.
    InFront wrote:
    He is, first and foremost, a popular communicator and writer. He writes books that are attarctive to Dublin Bus drivers and people waiting for a train, and gives his opinion on scientific theories.
    again. belittling him without mentioning anything he's said. prove him wrong, don't insult him. although, of course you can't prove him wrong, which is why you've stooped to insulting him
    InFront wrote:
    There is nothing "new" in his books and articles, no scientific discoveries like Hawkins or Einstein, and no attempt at that.

    exactly, there's no attempt at that. he never claimed to have discovered something new. he used already available science to make a case and wrote a book about it. you're doing exactly what i said people do in my first post on this thread. pretending he said something he didn't and trying to discredit him for it
    InFront wrote:
    Atheists who take unproven theory as proven evidence and bowing to the wisdom of a prophet of that theory, without admitting they are merely admiring, or placing a trust in a faith.
    as opposed to religious people who base everything on proven fact?

    to be more precise, religious people base absolutely zero on proven fact and arguments with atheists always eventually come back to things like "i just feel its right" because in reality thats all religious people have to go on. there is absolutely no evidence that a higher being exists and a mountain of evidence that people have convinced themselves of immensely silly things throughout the ages to explain things they didn't understand

    nordic people didn't understand thunder and so associated it with an anthropomorphic personification (thor). now we do understand it and so that god is defunct. one day science will advance far enough and we will do away with all gods. of course some people will still believe because "it feels right".


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    again, belittling him without actually proving anything. i've seen a video of him on youtube explaining it. i think he did it quite successfully

    CV, I'm not sure how you want me to prove this. The fact is that the teapot theory is not Dawkins' theoru, he took it from Russell. Do a quick google of Russell if you want, he's the guy who came up with it.

    Saying Dawkins took this idea from Russell is not itself belittling Dawkins, it's fact.
    describing him as having "a second rate degree in zoology" is not simply "stating his scientific credibility".
    I don't think that a degree from Clare is a second rate degree, I think I mentioned that he was awarded a "second class degree" there. I am certainly not belittling people who do not get firsts. I was making the point that "Dawkins is a popular science writer who just happens to have a second class degree in zoology". In other words, remember, he is not primarily a scientist but a writer cum amateur philosopher.
    I would reiterate the fact that he is not a noteworthy contributor to scientific academia.
    again. belittling him without mentioning anything he's said. prove him wrong, don't insult him. although, of course you can't prove him wrong, which is why you've stooped to insulting him

    I am not trying to prove him worng. In the same way it is impossoble to prove that there is a God, it is impossible to prove that there is no God. I disagree with Dawkins, but he cannot prove Islam wrong nor can he prove atheism right. He has faith in his beliefs, and I in mine. This question of proof existing on either side is nonsense.
    you're doing exactly what i said people do in my first post on this thread. pretending he said something he didn't and trying to descredit him for it
    If I say something uncomplimentary about Dawkins, which i often do, it isn;t always the case that he has "said the opposite". I didn't say he claimed to be a contributor to the progression of science or genetics, I'm just pointing it out that he is not. He doesn't have to have claimed it, I just wish people were clearer on it.
    as opposed to religious people who base everything on proven fact?
    No. If you've actually been reading this thread, you'd understand that no religious people have claimed to base their religion on proven fact.
    to be more precise, religious people base absolutely zero on proven fact and arguments with atheists always eventually come back to things like "i just feel its right" because in reality thats all religious people have to go on
    Atheists "just feel it's right"
    one day science will advance far enough and we will do away with all gods. of course some people will still believe because "it feels right".
    So you believe, you certainly cannot know it.


  • Posts: 81,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Will Shy Lightning


    again, belittling him without actually proving anything. i've seen a video of him on youtube explaining it. i think he did it quite successfully
    my lecturers explain many scientific theories well to me, it doesn't mean they created/coined/invented them.

    Why are you taking offense at a scientist's scientific credentials being stated?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    bluewolf wrote:
    my lecturers explain many scientific theories well to me, it doesn't mean they created/coined/invented them.

    Why are you taking offense at a scientist's scientific credentials being stated?
    i'm not. i took offence at this line:

    Dawkins attempts to copy and paste Russell's genius in "Devil's Chaplain" with little success.

    its clearly an attempt at dismissing him
    also, he conveniently missed out a lot of his credentials and descirbed someone with a doctorate in philosophy as "an amateur philosopher"


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 7,894 ✭✭✭Calibos


    Atheists "just feel it's right"

    :rolleyes:

    [Bangs head against wall]

    Thats the thing. Atheists don't 'just feel its right'. They don't 'believe its right'. They don't 'know' with 100% certainty that its right. We don't claim any of these things.

    When an atheist says, I believe human religion is not based on fact but on mythology passed down the ages, he doesn't mean believe like you thinks he means (belief without evidence). He means after using logic, rational thought and after looking at the evidence, I "Think' it likely to a high degree of probabilty that human religion is not based on reality.

    I think what people seem to realise is that the majority of atheists are atheistic with regard to the supernatural and all human religion. Most of us are probably agnostic with regard to a non interventionist creator god who created the universe and left it to its own devices. This is the one point where I disagree with Dawkins. He seems to think it is within the remit of science to make a judgement on the existence or non existence of this non interventionist creator God. Me I can't comprehend how science could ever look 'outside' the universe to find that answer.

    But just because I disagree with him on this point does not mean I brand him a fundamentalist and totally disregard all his other points that are valid with regard to the christian, muslim or any other human religion god.

    I can understand why most of the worlds population believe. A. they haven't heard the evidence against religion. B. They live such sh1tty poverty, violence stricken lives that they'd all commit suicide if they didn't believe in justice and a better life in the hearafter. I can understand why the poor in the first world blieve for many of the same reasons. I cannot understand how any educated afluent safe first worlder can still believe. We'll I can. Pure and simple fear of death and oblivion.


  • Posts: 22,384 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thought this was a pretty neat critique of Dawkins. Makes the point that he completely fails to grasp the intricacies of religion and theology.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_.html

    Lunging, Flailing, Mispunching
    Terry Eagleton

    Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the
    subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it
    feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology. Card-carrying rationalists
    like Dawkins, who is the nearest thing to a professional atheist we have
    had since Bertrand Russell, are in one sense the least well-equipped to
    understand what they castigate, since they don’t believe there is anything there to be understood, or at least anything worth understanding. This is
    why they invariably come up with vulgar caricatures of religious faith
    that would make a first-year theology student wince. The more they detest
    religion, the more ill-informed their criticisms of it tend to be. If they
    were asked to pass judgment on phenomenology or the geopolitics of South
    Asia, they would no doubt bone up on the question as assiduously as they
    could. When it comes to theology, however, any shoddy old travesty will
    pass muster. These days, theology is the queen of the sciences in a rather
    less august sense of the word than in its medieval heyday.
    Dawkins on God is rather like those right-wing Cambridge dons who filed
    eagerly into the Senate House some years ago to non-placet Jacques Derrida
    for an honorary degree. Very few of them, one suspects, had read more than
    a few pages of his work, and even that judgment might be excessively
    charitable. Yet they would doubtless have been horrified to receive an
    essay on Hume from a student who had not read his Treatise of Human
    Nature. There are always topics on which otherwise scrupulous minds will
    cave in with scarcely a struggle to the grossest prejudice. For a lot of
    academic psychologists, it is Jacques Lacan; for Oxbridge philosophers it
    is Heidegger; for former citizens of the Soviet bloc it is the writings of
    Marx; for militant rationalists it is religion.
    What, one wonders, are Dawkins’s views on the epistemological differences
    between Aquinas and Duns Scotus? Has he read Eriugena on subjectivity,
    Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope? Has he even heard of them? Or does he
    imagine like a bumptious young barrister that you can defeat the
    opposition while being complacently ignorant of its toughest case?
    Dawkins, it appears, has sometimes been told by theologians that he sets
    up straw men only to bowl them over, a charge he rebuts in this book; but
    if The God Delusion is anything to go by, they are absolutely right. As
    far as theology goes, Dawkins has an enormous amount in common with Ian
    Paisley and American TV evangelists. Both parties agree pretty much on
    what religion is; it’s just that Dawkins rejects it while Oral Roberts and
    his unctuous tribe grow fat on it.
    A molehill of instances out of a mountain of them will have to suffice.
    Dawkins considers that all faith is blind faith, and that Christian and
    Muslim children are brought up to believe unquestioningly. Not even the
    dim-witted clerics who knocked me about at grammar school thought that.
    For mainstream Christianity, reason, argument and honest doubt have always
    played an integral role in belief. (Where, given that he invites us at one
    point to question everything, is Dawkins’s own critique of science,
    objectivity, liberalism, atheism and the like?) Reason, to be sure,
    doesn’t go all the way down for believers, but it doesn’t for most
    sensitive, civilised non-religious types either. Even Richard Dawkins
    lives more by faith than by reason. We hold many beliefs that have no
    unimpeachably rational justification, but are nonetheless reasonable to
    entertain. Only positivists think that ‘rational’ means ‘scientific’.
    Dawkins rejects the surely reasonable case that science and religion are
    not in competition on the grounds that this insulates religion from
    rational inquiry. But this is a mistake: to claim that science and
    religion pose different questions to the world is not to suggest that if
    the bones of Jesus were discovered in Palestine, the pope should get
    himself down to the dole queue as fast as possible. It is rather to claim
    that while faith, rather like love, must involve factual knowledge, it is
    not reducible to it. For my claim to love you to be coherent, I must be
    able to explain what it is about you that justifies it; but my bank
    manager might agree with my dewy-eyed description of you without being in
    love with you himself.
    Dawkins holds that the existence or non-existence of God is a scientific
    hypothesis which is open to rational demonstration. Christianity teaches
    that to claim that there is a God must be reasonable, but that this is not
    at all the same thing as faith. Believing in God, whatever Dawkins might
    think, is not like concluding that aliens or the tooth fairy exist. God is
    not a celestial super-object or divine UFO, about whose existence we must
    remain agnostic until all the evidence is in. Theologians do not believe
    that he is either inside or outside the universe, as Dawkins thinks they
    do. His transcendence and invisibility are part of what he is, which is
    not the case with the Loch Ness monster. This is not to say that religious
    people believe in a black hole, because they also consider that God has
    revealed himself: not, as Dawkins thinks, in the guise of a cosmic
    manufacturer even smarter than Dawkins himself (the New Testament has next
    to nothing to say about God as Creator), but for Christians at least, in
    the form of a reviled and murdered political criminal. The Jews of the
    so-called Old Testament had faith in God, but this does not mean that
    after debating the matter at a number of international conferences they
    decided to endorse the scientific hypothesis that there existed a supreme
    architect of the universe – even though, as Genesis reveals, they were of
    this opinion. They had faith in God in the sense that I have faith in you.
    They may well have been mistaken in their view; but they were not mistaken
    because their scientific hypothesis was unsound.
    Dawkins speaks scoffingly of a personal God, as though it were entirely
    obvious exactly what this might mean. He seems to imagine God, if not
    exactly with a white beard, then at least as some kind of chap, however
    supersized. He asks how this chap can speak to billions of people
    simultaneously, which is rather like wondering why, if Tony Blair is an
    octopus, he has only two arms. For Judeo-Christianity, God is not a person
    in the sense that Al Gore arguably is. Nor is he a principle, an entity,
    or ‘existent’: in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent
    for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is,
    rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including
    ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing.
    God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my
    left foot constitute a pair of objects.
    This, not some super-manufacturing, is what is traditionally meant by the
    claim that God is Creator. He is what sustains all things in being by his
    love; and this would still be the case even if the universe had no
    beginning. To say that he brought it into being ex nihilo is not a measure
    of how very clever he is, but to suggest that he did it out of love rather
    than need. The world was not the consequence of an inexorable chain of
    cause and effect. Like a Modernist work of art, there is no necessity
    about it at all, and God might well have come to regret his handiwork some
    aeons ago. The Creation is the original acte gratuit. God is an artist who
    did it for the sheer love or hell of it, not a scientist at work on a
    magnificently rational design that will impress his research grant body no
    end.
    Because the universe is God’s, it shares in his life, which is the life of
    freedom. This is why it works all by itself, and why science and Richard
    Dawkins are therefore both possible. The same is true of human beings: God
    is not an obstacle to our autonomy and enjoyment but, as Aquinas argues,
    the power that allows us to be ourselves. Like the unconscious, he is
    closer to us than we are to ourselves. He is the source of our
    self-determination, not the erasure of it. To be dependent on him, as to
    be dependent on our friends, is a matter of freedom and fulfilment.
    Indeed, friendship is the word Aquinas uses to characterise the relation
    between God and humanity.
    Dawkins, who is as obsessed with the mechanics of Creation as his
    Creationist opponents, understands nothing of these traditional doctrines.
    Nor does he understand that because God is transcendent of us (which is
    another way of saying that he did not have to bring us about), he is free
    of any neurotic need for us and wants simply to be allowed to love us.
    Dawkins’s God, by contrast, is Satanic. Satan (‘accuser’ in Hebrew) is the
    misrecognition of God as Big Daddy and punitive judge, and Dawkins’s God
    is precisely such a repulsive superego. This false consciousness is
    overthrown in the person of Jesus, who reveals the Father as friend and
    lover rather than judge. Dawkins’s Supreme Being is the God of those who
    seek to avert divine wrath by sacrificing animals, being choosy in their
    diet and being impeccably well behaved. They cannot accept the scandal
    that God loves them just as they are, in all their moral shabbiness. This
    is one reason St Paul remarks that the law is cursed. Dawkins sees
    Christianity in terms of a narrowly legalistic notion of atonement – of a
    brutally vindictive God sacrificing his own child in recompense for being
    offended – and describes the belief as vicious and obnoxious. It’s a safe
    bet that the Archbishop of Canterbury couldn’t agree more. It was the
    imperial Roman state, not God, that murdered Jesus.
    Dawkins thinks it odd that Christians don’t look eagerly forward to death,
    given that they will thereby be ushered into paradise. He does not see
    that Christianity, like most religious faiths, values human life deeply,
    which is why the martyr differs from the suicide. The suicide abandons
    life because it has become worthless; the martyr surrenders his or her
    most precious possession for the ultimate well-being of others. This act
    of self-giving is generally known as sacrifice, a word that has unjustly
    accrued all sorts of politically incorrect implications. Jesus, Dawkins
    speculates, might have desired his own betrayal and death, a case the New
    Testament writers deliberately seek to rebuff by including the Gethsemane
    scene, in which Jesus is clearly panicking at the prospect of his
    impending execution. They also put words into his mouth when he is on the
    cross to make much the same point. Jesus did not die because he was mad or
    masochistic, but because the Roman state and its assorted local lackeys
    and running dogs took fright at his message of love, mercy and justice, as
    well as at his enormous popularity with the poor, and did away with him to
    forestall a mass uprising in a highly volatile political situation.
    Several of Jesus’ close comrades were probably Zealots, members of an
    anti-imperialist underground movement. Judas’ surname suggests that he may
    have been one of them, which makes his treachery rather more intelligible:
    perhaps he sold out his leader in bitter disenchantment, recognising that
    he was not, after all, the Messiah. Messiahs are not born in poverty; they
    do not spurn weapons of destruction; and they tend to ride into the
    national capital in bullet-proof limousines with police outriders, not on
    a donkey.
    Jesus, who pace Dawkins did indeed ‘derive his ethics from the Scriptures’
    (he was a devout Jew, not the founder of a fancy new set-up), was a joke
    of a Messiah. He was a carnivalesque parody of a leader who understood, so
    it would appear, that any regime not founded on solidarity with frailty
    and failure is bound to collapse under its own hubris. The symbol of that
    failure was his crucifixion. In this faith, he was true to the source of
    life he enigmatically called his Father, who in the guise of the Old
    Testament Yahweh tells the Hebrews that he hates their burnt offerings and
    that their incense stinks in his nostrils. They will know him for what he
    is, he reminds them, when they see the hungry being filled with good
    things and the rich being sent empty away. You are not allowed to make a
    fetish or graven image of this God, since the only image of him is human
    flesh and blood. Salvation for Christianity has to do with caring for the
    sick and welcoming the immigrant, protecting the poor from the violence of
    the rich. It is not a ‘religious’ affair at all, and demands no special
    clothing, ritual behaviour or fussiness about diet. (The Catholic
    prohibition on meat on Fridays is an unscriptural church regulation.)
    Jesus hung out with whores and social outcasts, was remarkably casual
    about sex, disapproved of the family (the suburban Dawkins is a trifle
    queasy about this), urged us to be laid-back about property and
    possessions, warned his followers that they too would die violently, and
    insisted that the truth kills and divides as well as liberates. He also
    cursed self-righteous prigs and deeply alarmed the ruling class.
    The Christian faith holds that those who are able to look on the
    crucifixion and live, to accept that the traumatic truth of human history
    is a tortured body, might just have a chance of new life – but only by
    virtue of an unimaginable transformation in our currently dire condition.
    This is known as the resurrection. Those who don’t see this dreadful image
    of a mutilated innocent as the truth of history are likely to be devotees
    of that bright-eyed superstition known as infinite human progress, for
    which Dawkins is a full-blooded apologist. Or they might be
    well-intentioned reformers or social democrats, which from a Christian
    standpoint simply isn’t radical enough.
    The central doctrine of Christianity, then, is not that God is a bastard.
    It is, in the words of the late Dominican theologian Herbert McCabe, that
    if you don’t love you’re dead, and if you do, they’ll kill you. Here,
    then, is your pie in the sky and opium of the people. It was, of course,
    Marx who coined that last phrase; but Marx, who in the same passage
    describes religion as the ‘heart of a heartless world, the soul of
    soulless conditions’, was rather more judicious and dialectical in his
    judgment on it than the lunging, flailing, mispunching Dawkins.
    Now it may well be that all this is no more plausible than the tooth
    fairy. Most reasoning people these days will see excellent grounds to
    reject it. But critics of the richest, most enduring form of popular
    culture in human history have a moral obligation to confront that case at
    its most persuasive, rather than grabbing themselves a victory on the
    cheap by savaging it as so much garbage and gobbledygook. The mainstream
    theology I have just outlined may well not be true; but anyone who holds
    it is in my view to be respected, whereas Dawkins considers that no
    religious belief, anytime or anywhere, is worthy of any respect
    whatsoever. This, one might note, is the opinion of a man deeply averse to
    dogmatism. Even moderate religious views, he insists, are to be
    ferociously contested, since they can always lead to fanaticism.
    Some currents of the liberalism that Dawkins espouses have nowadays
    degenerated into a rather nasty brand of neo-liberalism, but in my view
    this is no reason not to champion liberalism. In some obscure way, Dawkins
    manages to imply that the Bishop of Oxford is responsible for Osama bin
    Laden. His polemic would come rather more convincingly from a man who was
    a little less arrogantly triumphalistic about science (there are a mere
    one or two gestures in the book to its fallibility), and who could refrain
    from writing sentences like ‘this objection [to a particular scientific
    view] can be answered by the suggestion . . . that there are many
    universes,’ as though a suggestion constituted a scientific rebuttal. On
    the horrors that science and technology have wreaked on humanity, he is
    predictably silent. Yet the Apocalypse is far more likely to be the
    product of them than the work of religion. Swap you the Inquisition for
    chemical warfare.
    Such is Dawkins’s unruffled scientific impartiality that in a book of
    almost four hundred pages, he can scarcely bring himself to concede that a
    single human benefit has flowed from religious faith, a view which is as a
    priori improbable as it is empirically false. The countless millions who
    have devoted their lives selflessly to the service of others in the name
    of Christ or Buddha or Allah are wiped from human history – and this by a
    self-appointed crusader against bigotry. He is like a man who equates
    socialism with the Gulag. Like the puritan and sex, Dawkins sees God
    everywhere, even where he is self-evidently absent. He thinks, for
    example, that the ethno-political conflict in Northern Ireland would
    evaporate if religion did, which to someone like me, who lives there part
    of the time, betrays just how little he knows about it. He also thinks
    rather strangely that the terms Loyalist and Nationalist are ‘euphemisms’
    for Protestant and Catholic, and clearly doesn’t know the difference
    between a Loyalist and a Unionist or a Nationalist and a Republican. He
    also holds, against a good deal of the available evidence, that Islamic
    terrorism is inspired by religion rather than politics.
    These are not just the views of an enraged atheist. They are the opinions
    of a readily identifiable kind of English middle-class liberal
    rationalist. Reading Dawkins, who occasionally writes as though ‘Thou
    still unravish’d bride of quietness’ is a mighty funny way to describe a
    Grecian urn, one can be reasonably certain that he would not be Europe’s
    greatest enthusiast for Foucault, psychoanalysis, agitprop, Dadaism,
    anarchism or separatist feminism. All of these phenomena, one imagines,
    would be as distasteful to his brisk, bloodless rationality as the virgin
    birth. Yet one can of course be an atheist and a fervent fan of them all.
    His God-hating, then, is by no means simply the view of a scientist
    admirably cleansed of prejudice. It belongs to a specific cultural
    context. One would not expect to muster many votes for either anarchism or
    the virgin birth in North Oxford. (I should point out that I use the term
    North Oxford in an ideological rather than geographical sense. Dawkins may
    be relieved to know that I don’t actually know where he lives.)
    There is a very English brand of common sense that believes mostly in what
    it can touch, weigh and taste, and The God Delusion springs from, among
    other places, that particular stable. At its most philistine and
    provincial, it makes Dick Cheney sound like Thomas Mann. The secular Ten
    Commandments that Dawkins commends to us, one of which advises us to enjoy
    our sex lives so long as they don’t damage others, are for the most part
    liberal platitudes. Dawkins quite rightly detests fundamentalists; but as
    far as I know his anti-religious diatribes have never been matched in his
    work by a critique of the global capitalism that generates the hatred,
    anxiety, insecurity and sense of humiliation that breed fundamentalism.
    Instead, as the obtuse media chatter has it, it’s all down to religion.
    It thus comes as no surprise that Dawkins turns out to be an old-fashioned
    Hegelian when it comes to global politics, believing in a zeitgeist (his
    own term) involving ever increasing progress, with just the occasional
    ‘reversal’. ‘The whole wave,’ he rhapsodises in the finest Whiggish
    manner, ‘keeps moving.’ There are, he generously concedes, ‘local and
    temporary setbacks’ like the present US government – as though that regime
    were an electoral aberration, rather than the harbinger of a drastic
    transformation of the world order that we will probably have to live with
    for as long as we can foresee. Dawkins, by contrast, believes, in his
    Herbert Spencerish way, that ‘the progressive trend is unmistakable and it
    will continue.’ So there we are, then: we have it from the mouth of Mr
    Public Science himself that aside from a few local, temporary hiccups like
    ecological disasters, famine, ethnic wars and nuclear wastelands, History
    is perpetually on the up.
    Apart from the occasional perfunctory gesture to ‘sophisticated’ religious
    believers, Dawkins tends to see religion and fundamentalist religion as
    one and the same. This is not only grotesquely false; it is also a device
    to outflank any more reflective kind of faith by implying that it belongs
    to the coterie and not to the mass. The huge numbers of believers who hold
    something like the theology I outlined above can thus be conveniently
    lumped with rednecks who murder abortionists and malign homosexuals. As
    far as such outrages go, however, The God Delusion does a very fine job
    indeed. The two most deadly texts on the planet, apart perhaps from Donald
    Rumsfeld’s emails, are the Bible and the Koran; and Dawkins, as one the
    best of liberals as well as one of the worst, has done a magnificent job
    over the years of speaking out against that particular strain of
    psychopathology known as fundamentalism, whether Texan or Taliban. He is
    right to repudiate the brand of mealy-mouthed liberalism which believes
    that one has to respect other people’s silly or obnoxious ideas just
    because they are other people’s. In its admirably angry way, The God
    Delusion argues that the status of atheists in the US is nowadays about
    the same as that of gays fifty years ago. The book is full of vivid
    vignettes of the sheer horrors of religion, fundamentalist or otherwise.
    Nearly 50 per cent of Americans believe that a glorious Second Coming is
    imminent, and some of them are doing their damnedest to bring it about.
    But Dawkins could have told us all this without being so appallingly
    bitchy about those of his scientific colleagues who disagree with him, and
    without being so theologically illiterate. He might also have avoided
    being the second most frequently mentioned individual in his book – if you
    count God as an individual.
    Terry Eagleton is John Edward Taylor Professor of English Literature at
    Manchester University. His latest book is How to Read a Poem.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    InFront wrote:
    CV, I'm not sure how you want me to prove this. The fact is that the teapot theory is not Dawkins' theoru, he took it from Russell. Do a quick google of Russell if you want, he's the guy who came up with it.

    Saying Dawkins took this idea from Russell is not itself belittling Dawkins, it's fact.
    saying dawkins took it from him is not what is attempting to belittle him, saying he did it unsuccesfully is.

    InFront wrote:
    I don't think that a degree from Clare is a second rate degree, I think I mentioned that he was awarded a "second class degree" there. I am certainly not belittling people who do not get firsts. I was making the point that "Dawkins is a popular science writer who just happens to have a second class degree in zoology". In other words, remember, he is not primarily a scientist but a writer cum amateur philosopher.

    he also has an MA and is a doctor of philosophy. do you describe people with doctorates in all areas as amateurs or just people you don't agree with?

    also, he is a professor at oxford university. saying "He remains, ultimately, a popular science writer who happens to have a second class degree in Zoology" was cleary an attempt at belittling him. why even mention that the degree was second class if you weren't trying to downplay it? why even mention that he has a degree? as i've already said, talk about what he says, not who he is
    InFront wrote:
    I would reiterate the fact that he is not a noteworthy contributor to scientific academia.
    no one ever said he was. why even mention it? its completely beside the point

    InFront wrote:
    I am not trying to prove him worng.
    no you're not. you're trying to discredit him through fraudulent personal attacks because you can't prove him wrong.
    InFront wrote:
    If I say something uncomplimentary about Dawkins, which i often do, it isn;t always the case that he has "said the opposite". I didn't say he claimed to be a contributor to the progression of science or genetics, I'm just pointing it out that he is not. He doesn't have to have claimed it, I just wish people were clearer on it.
    he never claimed to be a 300lb pound housewife from alabama either. if were going to keep mentioning things he isn't we'll be here all day.

    InFront wrote:
    No. If you've actually been reading this thread, you'd understand that no religious people have claimed to base their religion on proven fact.
    that was in response to you belittling atheists for "taking unproven theory as proven evidence". in fact we don't do that. my beliefs, and i hesitate to use the word beliefs less you misunderstand my use of the term, are based on solid fact
    InFront wrote:
    Atheists "just feel it's right"
    ehhhh, no we don't. we see the universe around us and dismiss ghost stories because they defy the laws of physics. i "just feel its right" in the same way i "just feel" the gravity pulling me down

    Calibos' post above kind of sums up my beliefs. the law of conservation of mass states that matter can't be created. this is the only place where science currently fails. i think there could have been some sort of creator but there is nothing to show that this creator had any interaction with the universe after that instant. although i will probably be proved wrong in that belief because there's talk that the law of conservation of mass might not be absolute


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    no, in fact it was. even the jews admit that genesis was an attempt at this

    Why are you talking about Judaism? I mentioned Christianity in my post a couple of times. Never did I mention anything about Jewish beliefs.
    Beruthiel wrote:
    God cannot be proven to exist by science or logic.

    Perhaps. But I'm sure there are things we all do that defy 'logic' and things we believe merely from face value. For me it is enough to believe. Many would think that an unacceptable answer. But how could you possibly convey an emotion like love to someone who has never experienced what it feels like? It's impossible because words, however beautiful, fail to portray the reality.

    I'm happy to talk about my belief if asked. Yet, I also realise (through experience) that getting into a theological discussion is often a pointless exercise. I don't think we can ever prove there is a God through science - it's too limited. Similarly, science can never disprove there is a God.

    Often both sides of the debate are too entrenched in their views to fully explore the other point of view. What can I say? Stare at a blank wall for a week and it will remain blank. Look at the other side of it and you may be surprised by what you see.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Why are you talking about Judaism? I mentioned Christianity in my post a couple of times. Never did I mention anything about Jewish beliefs.
    my point was that even some theistic people see parts of the bible as attempts by primitive people to understand things that were beyond their comprehension


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    we believe merely from face value. For me it is enough to believe. Many would think that an unacceptable answer. But how could you possibly convey an emotion like love to someone who has never experienced what it feels like? It's impossible because words, however beautiful, fail to portray the reality.
    i don't find it an unacceptable answer. as i said above, its what these debates always come back to


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,588 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Yes Conor74, nothing makes a point better than a 5,000 word post...

    *snore* The art of rhetoric is completely lost on some people.

    Bascially religion=faith, science=Imperical observation and inference.

    If you're looking for some sort of unifed field theory that unites religion and science, then forget it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    saying dawkins took it from him is not what is attempting to belittle him, saying he did it unsuccesfully is.
    I think he copied it quite unsuccessfully, it was better logic when Bertrand Russell did it. If that's belittling him, I don't really mind tbh.
    no you're not. you're trying to discredit him through fraudulent personal attacks because you can't prove him wrong.

    My point is that nobody who says what he says can be proved wrong. Equally nobody who says what I say can be proved wrong.
    Dawkins has created for himself Bertrand Russell's own celestial teapot hypothesis. He sits comfortably in the knowledge that what he says cannot be proven wrong, and his faith tells him he must be right. Religion has that too, lets not get on any high horses here, our faith tells us we are right too. Dawkins has more in common with Christians, Muslims and Jews than he would have us believe. (Oh, believe:rolleyes: )
    that was in response to you belittling atheists for "taking unproven theory as proven evidence". in fact we don't do that. my beliefs, and i hesitate to use the word beliefs less you misunderstand my use of the term, are based on solid fact
    'Solid fact' is based on belief, not knowledge. Have you been reading this thread at all?
    ehhhh, no we don't. we see the universe around us and dismiss ghost stories because they defy the laws of physics. i "just feel its right" in the same way i "just feel" the gravity pulling me down
    I just feel Islam is right too. I'm not trying to disprove you, i'm just saying we both think we are right. Nothing doing.
    i think there could have been some sort of creator but there is nothing to show that this creator had any interaction with the universe after that instant. although i will probably be proved wrong in that belief because there's talk that the law of conservation of mass might not be absolute
    You will probably be proved wrong in saying that the Law of Conservation of Mass is absolute? therefore you say the law of conservation of mass is probably not absolute? Well if I may say so, that's an awfully unproven, improbable theory you believe in Commander Vimes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    InFront wrote:
    I think he copied it quite unsuccessfully, it was better logic when Bertrand Russell did it. If that's belittling him, I don't really mind tbh.
    i understood the logic of it fine and it made a valid point. and i do mind

    InFront wrote:
    My point is that nobody who says what he says can be proved wrong. Equally nobody who says what I say can be proved wrong.
    Dawkins has created for himself Bertrand Russell's own celestial teapot hypothesis. He sits comfortably in the knowledge that what he says cannot be proven wrong, and his faith tells him he must be right. Religion has that too, lets not get on any high horses here, our faith tells us we are right too. Dawkins has more in common with Christians, Muslims and Jews than he would have us believe. (Oh, believe:rolleyes: )
    dawkins' "faith" is based on science and quantifiable evidence. religious faith is based on what your parents and priests tell you. there is a world of difference between the two


    InFront wrote:
    'Solid fact' is based on belief, not knowledge. Have you been reading this thread at all?
    and now you're getting condescending with me. i repeat again that belief based on studied and tested evidence is scientifically sound whereas believing something which makes no logical sense because you were born in an area where other people believe the same thing is not scientifically sound.
    InFront wrote:
    I just feel Islam is right too. I'm not trying to disprove you, i'm just saying we both think we are right. Nothing doing.
    completely missing the point of what i was saying. i don't "feel" atheism is right. i looked at the evidence and came to a conclusion based on it, the same as any scientist does. i didn't "just feel" anything. how did you come to the conclusion that islam was right? did you look at everything that all the religions in the wolrd had to offer and decide that this one was right over all others? what criteria did you base that decision on?
    InFront wrote:
    You will probably be proved wrong in saying that the Law of Conservation of Mass is absolute? therefore you say the law of conservation of mass is probably not absolute? Well if I may say so, that's an awfully unproven, improbable theory you believe in Commander Vimes.
    in fact, mr infront, i heard about this today on the discovery channel. the person who said it was a scientist as CERN, the world's largest particle accelerator, currently under construction. don't worry, he has more than a second class degree in zoology

    i trust the people who said it because they have studied it. however, they did not simply state it. they said that they have seen evidence which might point to it and they are going to investigate further before publishing their findings. this is called scientific research and is very different to answering every question with "god did it".


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    dawkins' "faith" is based on science and quantifiable evidence. religious faith is based on what your parents and priests tell you. there is a world of difference between the two

    I don't particularly understand your personal attachment in Dawkins, or taking offense at my apparent belittling of this holy prophet of atheism, but I don't agree that all of his faith is based on science and quantifiable evidence.

    You say you started out on this thread to correct comments attributed to Dawkins on alien life. Recently this guy wrote that he believed "beings will be found on other planets, and they will appear like Gods to us". This seems to fly in the face of what you made earlier as a defense. It appears that you and Dawkins may not be entirely compatible bedfellows.

    I take a lot of exception to the suggestion that I only believe in Islam because it is what my parents and religious leaders say. And I would be very disappointed in their intelligence if my own parents and friends in turn only believed without question, like dogs, what they were told. In fact, I happen to know this is not the case.
    In Ireland, there are a great many Irish people who come and join the Muslim community. They are not doing this because o what their parents say, and certainly it is not what their priests advise them to do. How do you explain their beliefs, you say it has to be based on their parents and religious leaders? So why are there ex-Catholics amongst our community? Because you are wrong.
    believing something which makes no logical sense because you were born in an area where other people believe the same thing is not scientifically sound.

    The two greatest influences on me personally are Islam and Maths. Islam we know and hate or love and believe in or disbelieve in, but everyone agrees is of low mathematical probability.
    Mathematics - has some of the most illogical, unorthodox means, methods and principles that you can imagine because of the irrational reasons to admit certain mathematical entities or axioms. I can go into reasons why Mathematics sometimes appears to me as utterly illogical and backwards in practice, but I'm wary of dragging out the point.
    The point is simply this: logic is no pre-requisite to a belief. In fact, if it were, scientific, and certainly mathematical, progress would be greatly hindered.

    The fact that "something" is of lesser probability than "nothing" does not make "nothing" a certainty. I don't know how many more ways there are of repeating that, or saying it in new ways before some people get the point.
    how did you come to the conclusion that islam was right? did you look at everything that all the religions in the wolrd had to offer and decide that this one was right over all others? what criteria did you base that decision on?
    As far as I can see everybody questions their own faith at some point, no matter who. For you to assume that I, or anyone else has not done so by virtue of the fact that we believe, is testament to the level of arrogance that you seem to deny. I would again re-iterate that intelligence is not inversely proportional to degrees of faith, there is no direct intelligence-faith relationship that I have ever seen.
    And yes, I am well aware of other religions, and count myself lucky to count a reasonably good number of sects/ faiths in my circle of friends or acquaintances.
    I'm not blind. I grew up with Islam but as I grew up I chose to keep it. I chose to remain faithful to my Islam for my own personal reasons that have nothing to do with a single other individual on Earth. My beliefs cannot be proven but that I believe in so strongly I would set the foundations of everything i do on them. This thread, as far as I can see, is certainly not about justifying or pleading ratification for one's beliefs to an atheist. I don't expect you to qualify your atheism to me, but expect the same.
    i trust the people who said it because they have studied it. however, they did not simply state it. they said that they have seen evidence which might point to it and they are going to investigate further before publishing their findings. this is called scientific research and is very different to answering every question with "god did it".
    CV, I can almost guarantee you (one can never be sure of anything) that while they may have used the words "law of conservation of mass", they are not about to publish a report to say it would suggest or hint at the theory that it is "probably" wrong. I just checked the front page of the website, and if they have a theory which cracks the issues over the LCM thereby providing stunning, ground-breaking theories with regard to Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, then they are keeping it very much to themselves.
    For yout to say you will "probably be proved wrong" about the Law of Conservation of Mass given this report you saw on TV, is fair enough. But there's no science behind you, it's all your faith.

    I don't know how much you know about the law of conservation of mass, but


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