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Do you believe......

12357…10

Comments

  • #122
    Jello
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,739 ✭✭✭Jello


    Nah don't believe in god, heaven or any of that stuff.


  • #123
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    These topics amaze me. Your each trying to convince each other that there is / isnt a god. Nobody can know the right or wrong answer, and thats a fact. Logicaly, it might seem strange there is no god. But how many non logical things have been proven to exsist / happen? The big bang and any type of after life or god is just one big mysterie. Nobody here can say "There is a god" or "There isnt a god". You can believe what you want, but you may never know the right answer.

    Twould be a much nicer topic if there wasnt so much people triyng to convience people to "believe" or "not to believe".

    </rant>


  • #124
    monkeyfudge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,216 ✭✭✭✭monkeyfudge


    Sully04 wrote:
    The big bang and any type of after life or god is just one big mysterie. Nobody here can say "There is a god" or "There isnt a god". You can believe what you want, but you may never know the right answer.
    Then what's the point of putting in the effort of believing in something? Why build up lots of silly rules and stories about something that most likely doesn't exist, and if it does exist it's not a very pleasant entity.


  • #125
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    monkeyfudge wrote:
    Then what's the point of putting in the effort of believing in something? Why build up lots of silly rules and stories about something that most likely doesn't exist, and if it does exist it's not a very pleasant entity.

    See, your thinking of this logicaly. Yes, logicaly its a silly thing and most likely doesnt or couldnt exsist. If you think about it. However, if you consider other "non logical" things which seemed outrageous at the time have now come to life - whats not to say that something as silly as an "afterlife", "god" etc. may exsist?

    My point is - nobody is right and nobody is wrong. We cant say "Your right" or "Your wrong". We cant give out to those who believe and we cant give out to those who dont believe. Why? Because we can not be 100% positive there is no such thing as god, an afterlife etc. Seriously, we cant - we can only be 100% sure it doesnt exsist if we think about things logicaly which is NOT enough proof. Plus, if people want to believe in something silly - so be it. Leave them be. (Same applies to those who dont believe, dont go forcing religion into them).

    Dont get me wrong, im not preaching or making non-believers believe. Just stating whats obvious and staring us in the face. We just have to believe or not believe in something we can not be so sure exsists or not and what we decided is up to us and not anybody else.


  • #126
    monkeyfudge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,216 ✭✭✭✭monkeyfudge


    But religion is a huge problem. It's not in any way harmless.

    Aside from some beautiful art and music over the years it has only given us mass murder, bloodshed and torture. It's also a great way to keep the populous in check and prevent them from thinking for themselves.


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  • #127
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    monkeyfudge wrote:
    But religion is a huge problem. It's not in any way harmless.

    Aside from some beautiful art and music over the years it has only given us mass murder, bloodshed and torture. It's also a great way to keep the populous in check and prevent them from thinking for themselves.

    Thats different then the Irish religion though. We are catholics, who do not "kill in the name of christ". Other religions do "kill in the name of christ". Thats a different topic altogether, and is more of an extension of the "Do you believe...". If you believe in God, what exactly DO YOU believe - and every religion has their own believes in god and some went as far as having to kill in his name to go to heaven. Thats not exactly what this topic is asking..


  • #128
    monkeyfudge
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,216 ✭✭✭✭monkeyfudge


    But the root of the problem is still a belief in a deity of some sort and people build up all this junk around it.

    If this great creator actually exists, and actually cares about our existence then it wouldn't have been so vague and contradictory in it's supposed messages to us.


  • #129
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    monkeyfudge wrote:
    But the root of the problem is still a belief in a deity of some sort and people build up all this junk around it.

    If this great creator actually exists, and actually cares about our existence then it wouldn't have been so vague and contradictory in it's supposed messages to us.

    OK so what, believers should stop believing something that can never be proved true or false until death - because some muppets decided to take up their idea of religion the completely wrong way?

    I only know the Catholic religion, so I cant say for sure what religions are stating they must kill for christ and how that religion differs from Catholic religion. Is it adapted, or is it a whole new religion with no connections. Again, im not to sure.

    There are plenty of things in life which people use properly and abuse. Should they be taken away from everyone because its abused? People drive dangerously and kill thousands of people yearly - should we just take all motor vehicels of the road cause of it? People abuse drink and do dangerous things - should we take drink away from everyone?

    Look at it that way. The above are examples which muppets adapt from the root and abuse. Religion is the same. There is no way it should be taken from someone, because it results in abuse.


  • #130
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,221 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Sully04 wrote:
    Thats different then the Irish religion though. We are catholics, who do not "kill in the name of christ". Other religions do "kill in the name of christ".

    Have you never read up on the history of the Roman Catholic Church?
    There are plenty of things in life which people use properly and abuse. Should they be taken away from everyone because its abused? People drive dangerously and kill thousands of people yearly - should we just take all motor vehicels of the road cause of it? People abuse drink and do dangerous things - should we take drink away from everyone?

    So you think the ability to practice religion should be limited but no banned by the legislature?


  • #131
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Sangre wrote:
    Have you never read up on the history of the Roman Catholic Church?

    Whats done is done, its in the past. We are talking about the present here. ;)

    But no, not really. Feel free to give me some reading material. ;)


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  • #132
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,221 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    Basically of all the religions out there Catholicism probably has the most bloodshed attached to it.


  • #133
    dceire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,874 ✭✭✭dceire


    I'm an atheist so no but i do have a fascination with peoples need/fascination with religion!

    To sum up my feelings on the matter of religion "there is something to be said for treating these not as religions at all but as ethical systems or philosophies of life"

    Jesus Christ the worlds #1 imaginary friend! :D


  • #134
    Sully
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 24,071 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sully


    Sangre wrote:
    Basically of all the religions out there Catholicism probably has the most bloodshed attached to it.

    Even in todays modern society? With all these sucide bombings and killings in the name of christ? Then again im not familar with the history of Catholicism.


  • #135
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I believe this thread should be in a religious forum. Amend.


  • #136
    InFront
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    Sangre wrote:
    Its irrelevant if there are no laws before the big bang. Tbh you could attribute the name of God to whatever started the universe, from an alien race to a collapsing universe to a deity.

    But that is exactly my point. I have my reasons for believeing a certain theory, other people have theirs. The infinite dot theory we come across in science has, it is acknowledged, no scientific proof whatever.
    Your arguement of we can't know what started has no bearing on religion because all religions speak of God influencing the world we *currently* live in
    ,

    If we imagine that the infinite dot theory is correct, and God existed outside the dot, then when the dot exploded (big bang) God exists outside the universe.
    The catch here again is that we cannot escape the universe in life. Nothing can go faster than the speed of light, yet the speed of light does not travel at infintite speed. We are still trapped in a dot, we cannot as Einstein used to think about, overtake space-time.
    As for Allah influencing the universe, I would have thought it was obvious that he, being all-powerful, can exercise complete control over it.
    The universe is beyond our proving, i'm just clarifying what I happen to believe. I have no problem with atheism, just this atheist evangecalism that we see everywhere. I think atheism is an incomplete philosophy, but I don't scoff at it.
    where there are laws of physics. The problem science has with a God is when he created the universe, imposed these laws and then started influencing man and making himself known around 2000 years ago or 1000 in the case of Allah (although they're both the same afaik).

    Firstly Allah has been around throughout the history of infinity, not the last 1000 years. Allah's relationship with humanity as it is knwon to us did not begin with Muhammad pbuh but with the first man, Adam.
    Secondly, if you believe in Allah it is not unreasonable to believe that he is not subject to the natural laws of the universe where he exists ourside of the universe. However, who is to say that he has not imposed physics on us as his hand, as many people believe. Allah works in nature all around us in the natural world, from the moon orbiting the Earth, the Earth orbiting the sun, the sun orbiting the galaxy... physics is God.
    Originally posted by User45701
    If you die taking out an infendel (suicide bombings) you will get 100 beautiful virgins in heavan and life forever in happiness.
    This idea has become so exaggerated it's entered urban myth territory. Firstly, suicide is prohibited in Islam, secondly offensive murder is prohibited. Thirdly, there are not 100 beautiful virgins. If you want to believe such things do so as you wish, just don't expect anyone else to give you credibility.
    The Verse is ever expanding, this is caused by the energy still left over from the big bang, when that energy runs out or when the Verse reaches a certain mass it will collapse in on itself the entire Verse collapsing into one point in space, imagine that all the energy of the whole Verse converging at one point in space - that is more than enough energy to fuel another big bang, hence another posters comment about Earth Version 10.6 this big event has happened in the past and the verse simply re-creates itself.

    That's not scientific knowledge, that is a hypothesis (and quite a good one in general), and there is no proof for it, nor is there proof that the universe must collapse in on itself. I dont use 'proof' in the pedantics sense there, I use it in the sense that even a philosopher could have come up with it.
    I think it has a lot of value as an argument, but just remember that you yourself are taking seriously unproven theories as fact here.
    Originally posted by Dampsquid
    I find it hard to understand how any educated person could believe in a god.

    When one considers that Einsterin and Newtons, as the first two who come to mind, believed in a God, you have to question the "intellectual superiority" of atheists saying what you've just said. The belief that all people of religious faith as opposed to scientific faith are intellectually lesser individuals is quite honestly tiring, and has absolutely no merit.
    Originally posted by Sully04
    These topics amaze me. Your each trying to convince each other that there is / isnt a god. Nobody can know the right or wrong answer, and thats a fact.
    I don't think we'e all trying to do that. I for one am saimply pointing out why my beliefs are reasonable, or not illogical, not trying to convince anybody else here. Of course the topic cannot be proven either way.
    But religion is a huge problem. It's not in any way harmless.
    Aside from some beautiful art and music over the years it has only given us mass murder, bloodshed and torture. It's also a great way to keep the populous in check and prevent them from thinking for themselves.

    Ok, so take Islam for a minute, it hasn't given music to the world. Art - yes. You think that's all, art? You don't think there are any benefits in the lessons of, for example, Islam? You think it's all bad, and that nothing good can come of it in a Muslim's daily life? You deny that people benefit from religion?
    This atheist superiority complex is probably what is more frustrating than anything.


  • #137
    Crucifix
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,437 ✭✭✭Crucifix


    Sully04 wrote:
    Even in todays modern society? With all these sucide bombings and killings in the name of christ? Then again im not familar with the history of Catholicism.
    The Crusades?


  • #138
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Dampsquid wrote:
    I find it hard to understand how any educated person could believe in a god.

    I find it hard to believe that any educated person would say what you just said.


  • #139
    Sangre
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,221 ✭✭✭✭Sangre


    InFront wrote:
    I don't think we'e all trying to do that. I for one am saimply pointing out why my beliefs are reasonable, or not illogical, not trying to convince anybody else here. Of course the topic cannot be proven either way.

    Showing that we can't prove what started the universe doesn't show your position as reasonable or logical, at all. It merely shows that we don't know for definite what started the universe, which is something I nor the vast majority of the scientific community have ever claimed.

    You're only setting up a strawman to knock it down. Wow, science doesn't know the origins of the universe, therefore it is infallible, therefore God can exist. No, all you're showing is that we don't know what started the universe as we know it.

    I see you believe in Adam as the first man. I take you don't accept evolution then or are you referring to Adam in the non-literal sense? If you do accept evolution then at point was man infused with a soul? Were children with souls born to non-human, soulless beasts?

    The history of religion as I've seen it;

    This story is true and factual.
    Well actually science shows it isn't.
    Well, the story is only meant to give us morals, its this different story that is literal.
    Well actually etc.,


  • #140
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Blue_Lagoon wrote:
    I believe this thread should be in a religious forum. Amend.
    But which one >_<

    there are many


  • #141
    c0rk3r
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,257 ✭✭✭c0rk3r


    Nothing exists but atoms and empty space; everything else is just opinion.

    The problem is people tend to use darwinism as a source for atheism, and the monkey replaced God as an object of inquiry. I aint worshipping no monkey!

    Now dont you atheists go bananas over that :)

    I study Applied Chemistry and believe a force governs the universe. I may call that force god.


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  • #142
    JC 2K3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,794 ✭✭✭JC 2K3


    I do not believe in God.

    Firstly, I do not think believing in a God who has rules, ie. organised religion is in any way rational. Why? Because every religion is randomly selected by(or imposed on) the believer, because there have been thousands of deities and thousands of religious rules throughout history. The only type of God that could possibly exist would be one who favoured lucky people who happened to choose the right religion.

    Religious people seem to be able to grasp the concept of infintiy quite well when it comes to explaining where their God came from, but that the universe might be infinite they can't seem to comprehend.


  • #143
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,240 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Have we all started quoting each other in an endless loop of arguments?


    Anywho...

    Yes, I have a faith in a Christian God.

    My belief in God doesn't mean that I don't have questions or difficulties with aspects of my faith. Quite the contrary. However, I don't tend to get too bogged down these or in organised religion, which I see a flawed construct of man - usually well intentioned, but, as we all know, open to many abuses. I know what I believe despite difficulties I encounter on the way.

    When the inevitably confounding question: "where did God come from?" arises, the only way I can possibly reconcile this with myself is by imagining our infinite (?) universe, complete with our current understanding of the laws which bind it together, being contained within a snow globe, and God exists outside it. In that place outside the snow globe (heaven? who Knows?), everything we understand: concepts of time, space, etc. - have no meaning, bearing or are only the 'tip of the ice berg'. I firmly believe that whatever realm God inhabits (i.e. outside the snow globe), it is as incomprehensible to us as Shakespeare is to a dog. I realise that the above is a deeply flawed analogy, but it works for me.

    I know it is very easy to get bogged down in the unanswerable complexities of our existence. Many people may find the truth of the matter perplexing, even frightening, but there are quite literally millions of people out there who would testify to having a loving relationship with God, and he (for arguments sake - no talk of 'it' or 'goddess' etc. please ;)) is very much a real presence in their lives. When you have something like that, questions about the origins of our universe, though still pertinent, are somehow less important.

    Personally, I believe that many Christian religions are devoid of the kind of contact between God and a person I mentioned above - to the point of sterility. Many cant fathom that God could be an active part of their daily lives. I don't blame them - going to Mass is such an sterile and uninspiring experience. On the other hand, if you do enter into a church where there is a real belief and passion, it can wholeheartedly be felt deep inside you.


    _______________end rant_______________


  • #144
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    Do any of you honestly think that, if there was a god, he would want you all chanting his name several times a day or every week/day going somewhere so you can all gather around and chant together about how devine he is? IMO, if there was some sort of god or higher power thats the last thing he would want. Id imagine he would want everyone to get on with the short space of life he has given them and make the most of it. Enjoy yourself and be good to others.

    If God is forgiving, why is there hell?


  • #145
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    God created us purely BECAUSE he wants us chanting his name and stuff! We're like his cheerleaders!


  • #146
    Winters
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,762 ✭✭✭✭Winters


    DaveMcG wrote:
    God created us purely BECAUSE he wants us chanting his name and stuff! We're like his cheerleaders!
    Maybe he has us chanting as he is insecure of his penis size.


  • #147
    ChRoMe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWquwHlGXZE

    Pretty much sums up my view on the whole religion issue. I feel kinda bad posting a youtube comedy clip on what is such a serious question but I'd strongly advise all believers and non believers to watch it as there is some very valid points made in the video. Plus you should get a good laugh aswell!


  • #148
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Yes, in the God sense, infinite virgins, lots of booze, plenty of books to read, all films made, and to be made available to me... oh and day passes to hell so I can have my evil way with a few of the fine ass dirty hoe's.


  • #149
    InFront
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,698 ✭✭✭InFront


    Sangre wrote:
    Showing that we can't prove what started the universe doesn't show your position as reasonable or logical, at all. It merely shows that we don't know for definite what started the universe, which is something I nor the vast majority of the scientific community have ever claimed.
    My point isn't exactly that the laws of the universe shows faith to be logical, such laws do not have anything do do with why people have faith. The only point I'm making, is that mathematics, physics, chemistry and astronomy do not disprove God. They are, in themselves at their most basic, no inspirators. Nobody (I hope) is silly enough to say "Physics cannot prove 'God' is false, therefore God exists". Getting into why people have faith is a whole other matter, it has nothing to do with scientific debate.
    You're only setting up a strawman to knock it down. Wow, science doesn't know the origins of the universe, therefore it is infallible, therefore God can exist
    'Therefore God can exist is not the next logical step'. The sequence reads something like: "we don't know where the universe comes from, therefore it could reasonably have come from anything". A shiny green turtle could have created it, a hundred monkeys could have created it, God could have created it, or nothingness created it. I just happen to have faith in one of those things, based on things that were produced on earth to suggest so, manifestations of the Qur'an in life and in the Universe.
    No, all you're showing is that we don't know what started the universe as we know it.

    Yes, that's right. This debate was at a point where some people seemed to be arguing the logic of religious thought. My point is that,leaving aside the religious texts that people find promise in, and looking at physics in its bare bones, you can't actually say that religion is a fallacy.
    I see you believe in Adam as the first man. I take you don't accept evolution then or are you referring to Adam in the non-literal sense?

    I don't think that this thread needs an evolution debate, but Allah alone is Master of Existence. He alone causes all that is to be and not to be. Causes are without effect in themselves, but rather both cause and effect are created by Him.
    As I said earlier when you said something about Allah obeying the laws of physics. his hand is the laws of physics, equally biology is at his hand. I am not a scholar, but as far as I can see it is not kufr to believe in evolution in general, that is fine. However, I do believe that man was created with special purpose, and did not derive from non human derivatives. Man is seperated from his worldly colleagues in this way.
    And getting back to unproven theories, Darwinism ranks pretty highly up there. It does not have a seat of proven assurity within science like the fundamental pricniples of other disciplines. The book is not closed on genetics.
    This story is true and factual.
    Well actually science shows it isn't.
    Well, the story is only meant to give us morals, its this different story that is literal.
    Well actually etc.,


    While religion has made a great number of mistakes in the past (nobody really ought to deny that), I think you are overstating the case to represent it that way. I don't think enough non-muslims read the Qur'an, but if you did you would see that the religious principles of the Qur'an do not change. They are still with us today. So how can Islam (cant speak for others) be 'running' from science? Yes science has sometimes caused us to look at the Qur'an in different ways. I can't see a problem with that, it all furthers our education.

    Some examples of religion altering our perception of science, (or more exactly, not altering our perception of science, but science later realizing its mistakes and following the Qur'an:)
    Qur'an, 51:47:
    And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it.
    Newton: No the universe is not expanding, it is static. Gravity is always attractive
    Einstein:No the universe is not expanding, it is static. Gravity is always attractive. This is why I had to invent the cosmological constant (c)

    Modern Physics:Yeah the universe is expanding. Einstein called his cosmological constant 'his greatest blunder'.

    This is not the only example, calculations of the lunar year, geoid shape of the earth when science considered it either spherical or flat, angiogenesis in embryology, and more are contained within the Qur'an. So it is not a case of religion running from science, or vice versa. Both have things to learn one another. This page is interesting for anyone interested in the science of the Qur'an.

    I often find it quite funny when some of our greatest atheist scientists such as Stephen Hawking for example show such respect for Aristotlean science, being an ancient document and based as it was without experimentation, yet complete disregard for the miracles of the Qur'an!


  • #150
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    InFront wrote:
    manifestations of the Qur'an in life and in the Universe.

    I'm intrigued. Perhaps since we can't disprove that we're in the Matrix, we can argue over these miracles you keep referring to. A few examples?


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  • #151
    Beruthiel
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 42,361 Mod ✭✭✭✭Beruthiel


    Atheist.

    I cannot understand why people believe in something that man made up along the way, just to make himself feel better about this life.


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