Decentralisation

The_Conductor · 11-12-2006 09:13AM

vesp wrote:

It would be a move in the right direction. For many of the country workers forced to work in Dublin it would be a godsend.

Not so. You can't just become a civil servant- you need to pass quite onerous examinations and interview panels before being appointed. There is a flawed assumption that you just walk into the job.

Further to previous comments- moving 10,500 civil servants from Dublin will do nothing to Dublin's congestion problem- I am personally aware that most government Departments provide more secure bicycle parking spaces for staff than they do car parking spaces- and car parking is only available as a matter of course for the highest ranking civil servants who are not very numerous.

Civil servants are paid to implement government policy relating to the specific areas under the auspices of their parent departments. Civil servants are not paid to implement every random hairbrained scheme that may occasionally pop up on the radar. Nor or they paid to blindly do daily tasks- they are expected to practise financial prudence and safeguard the interests of the public, the exchequer and the government- while undertaking those duties assigned to them.

In recognition of blatant misquoting of NewDubliner's post I am not continuing to debate with you.

TempestSabre · 11-12-2006 11:19AM

vesp wrote:

It would be a move in the right direction. For many of the country workers forced to work in Dublin it would be a godsend.

Theres more vastly more imigrant/migrant workers than Public sector staff in Dublin. Why not encourage them to move down the country? Give them grants an incentives to settle out of Dublin? Besides if you wish to work down the country the option of transferring has been an option for years. All you are talking about are those who have chosen to live, or continue to live in Dublin.

oscarBravo · 11-12-2006 11:21AM

vesp wrote:

I would urge you to stop the personal attacks and get back to the topic.

There was no personal attack. As a moderator of this forum, I saw you use a childish playground debating tactic in a serious thread, and I called you on it. I'm reiterating that warning now: either engage seriously in the debate (and that means refuting points that have been made repeatedly and convincingly in a 1600-post-plus thread using actual facts and/or logic) or don't bother "contributing" at all.

TempestSabre · 11-12-2006 11:24AM

vesp wrote:

Office accomodation and overheads are cheaper outside Dublin. Fact. As regards "if an official needs to travel abroad,".... how many public servants need to travel abroad ? And at what cost ? Are public servants really paid to sit in traffic jams on the M50 / Dublin city centre ?

There are many flights abroad from regional airports, without the time delays / car parking hassle and costs associated with Dublin airport.

Can you quote some Govt figures on how much decentralisation is saving, or costing.

Or how much more expensive it is to drive around the city center or fly from birr or somewhere like that, to dublin. Inlcuding the difference in rent etc.

Schuhart · 11-12-2006 04:42PM

vesp wrote:

It would be a move in the right direction. For many of the country workers forced to work in Dublin it would be a godsend.

It's not a step in the right direction as it does nothing to promote concentration in the regions, identified as the key barrier obstructing regional development. The programme undermines the national spatial strategy, and hence is a step in the wrong direction.

vesp wrote:

Office accomodation and overheads are cheaper outside Dublin. Fact.

Accommodation can be, overheads can be more expensive. If something is cheaper, it is for a reason. Also, the Government’s own assessment states that the property related costs will not break even until 2026. Bizarrely, this assessment was only carried out after the decision was taken to decentralise. Hence, it is clear both that saving money on accommodation was not a motivation for this plan, and that it offers no immediate prospect of saving money on accommodation.

Of course, this takes no account of the higher costs incurred on things other than accommodation. In that context air access is just an example, but one I’m willing to pursue to illustrate the kind of issue at stake. Regional airports tend to offer scheduled flights to the UK only. If you think it’s a good idea to isolate Central Government from Europe, and adopt a UK-centric outlook, I cannot agree with you. Decentralisation as proposed turns us back into ‘an island behind an island’.

Victor · 11-12-2006 05:22PM

vesp, could I ask what you background is and what your experience of the civil services is?

vesp wrote:

Plus it improved the quality of live for many people who previously had to commute from the country to the city every week.

vesp wrote:

For many of the country workers forced to work in Dublin it would be a godsend.

These two quotes seem to indicate a slightly antiquated view of Ireland. Have you ever thought that people want to get out of rural Ireland?

very miffed dub · 11-12-2006 06:07PM

This is my experience of the practical effect of Decentralisation.

A highly skilled and knowledgeable section in a key Department have been transferred to other sections because they didn't want to uproot their families and move to the new location. The result is that the new staff are inexperienced and failing to meet targets.

This became evident today when I received an important e-mail today wondering why certain information wasn't available. Obviously the person that sent the e-mail didn't realise that the section in question has been decimated!! I replied saying that I understood their frustration but that as a result of decentralisation I was no longer working there.

I said in one of my earlier posts that delivery of services would be drastically effected and now I have been proved right.

vesp · 12-12-2006 12:33AM

Schuhart wrote:

Accommodation can be, overheads can be more expensive. If something is cheaper, it is for a reason.

Its not a case of accomodation CAN be more expensive in Dublin, Accomodation IS more expensive in Dublin. Ask anyone in the property business. If you cannot work that one one ( supply and demand, higher price of land in overcrowded Dublin etc ) then I feel sorry for you.

vesp · 12-12-2006 12:36AM

very miffed dub wrote:

This became evident today when I received an important e-mail today wondering why certain information wasn't available. Obviously the person that sent the e-mail didn't realise that the section in question has been decimated!!

I would imagine the section in question is still being paid, many people still work there and the reason the e-mail was not answered properly or the info. was not available was good old inefficiency. Or maybe the person who sent the e-mail did so at 4.30 on a Friday and all the workers had left to go home for the weekend, to the country or wherever ?

oscarBravo · 12-12-2006 01:02AM

vesp wrote:

I would imagine the section in question is still being paid, many people still work there and the reason the e-mail was not answered properly or the info. was not available was good old inefficiency. Or maybe the person who sent the e-mail did so at 4.30 on a Friday and all the workers had left to go home for the weekend, to the country or wherever ?

You would imagine, would you?

I've already taken you up on your approach to this thread, so let me make this absolutely clear for you: unless you're prepared to refute other posters' points with provable facts and/or well-reasoned logic, you'll be taking a break from this forum. Think carefully before you post here again.

NewDubliner · 12-12-2006 08:39AM

vesp wrote:

Its not a case of accomodation CAN be more expensive in Dublin, Accomodation IS more expensive in Dublin.

This is sometimes true, depending on the circumstances. Now tell us how much money would be saved by using accomodation outside of Dublin and how much will it cost to make this saving? For extra points, refer (and quote accurately) from posts made in the thread concerning the costs of the project.

vesp wrote:

I would imagine the section in question is still being paid, many people still work there and the reason the e-mail was not answered properly or the info. was not available was good old inefficiency. Or maybe the person who sent the e-mail did so at 4.30 on a Friday and all the workers had left to go home for the weekend, to the country or wherever ?

Do pay attention Vesp! The e-mail was sent to a person in Dublin looking for information that was supposed to have been done by people down the country, who according to you, are 'more efficient'. The original section that was responsible for the work has been disbanded or 'white-walled' and its knowledge and skill dissipated.

The_Conductor · 12-12-2006 08:59AM

vesp wrote:

Its not a case of accomodation CAN be more expensive in Dublin, Accomodation IS more expensive in Dublin. Ask anyone in the property business. If you cannot work that one one ( supply and demand, higher price of land in overcrowded Dublin etc ) then I feel sorry for you.

This is not an accurate assumption. While you may generalise that headline costs (i.e. rent) of office accomodation may be higher in most (but not all cases) in Dublin, in the vast majority of cases you will find that the costs to service said office accomodation on an ongoing basis in most cases is considerably higher outside of Dublin.

There is documented evidence to show it costs more to house Department of Agriculture staff in Maynooth, Portlaoise or even Galway than it does on Kildare Street, Dublin 2.

The higher price of land in provincial locations is only one of a long list of factors which influence the cost of locating or accomodating offices there. Access to necessary infrastructure and the ability of staff to interact with each other in order to conduct their duties must be costed and included in this equation.

Those are exchequer costs associated with locating in particular locations- then there are the personal costs associated with individual people- which can also be considerable, and more often than not, are conveniently overlooked.

It is not as simple a case as blindly stating Dublin is expensive and everywhere else is cheaper. The rental cost of a serviced site in Mountrath suitable to accomodate 600 staff is between 30 and 50% more expensive than rental space in City West Dublin (depending on when occupancy is required).

Certainly your one-off 4 bed bungalow on a half acre will be cheaper outside Portlaoise than in Howth- but apples and oranges are two different types of fruit.......

very miffed dub · 12-12-2006 04:22PM

vesp wrote:

I would imagine the section in question is still being paid, many people still work there and the reason the e-mail was not answered properly or the info. was not available was good old inefficiency. Or maybe the person who sent the e-mail did so at 4.30 on a Friday and all the workers had left to go home for the weekend, to the country or wherever ?

Just to clarify the e-mail was sent yesterday morning to key staff who used to work in the section pleading for the information because they couldn't get it from the new staff. The section is still in Dublin (due to go to the new location in 2007) but the staff are totally inexperienced despite thousands of taxpayers' euro spent on training etc.

Before I left my old job I had to do a complete instruction and procedural manual for the new staff. They obviously ignored it.

So much for Customer Service!!!!

By the way I answered the e-mail giving the required information and the person was very grateful even though it's not my job any more!!

vesp · 12-12-2006 08:44PM

very miffed dub wrote:

Just to clarify the e-mail was sent yesterday morning to key staff who used to work in the section pleading for the information because they couldn't get it from the new staff. The section is still in Dublin (due to go to the new location in 2007) but the staff are totally inexperienced despite thousands of taxpayers' euro spent on training etc.

Before I left my old job I had to do a complete instruction and procedural manual for the new staff. They obviously ignored it.

So much for Customer Service!!!!

So much for civil service efficiency. If it was a big private company it would either have gone bust long ago or else relocated to cheaper locations. How many big manufacturers are still in Dublin city centre for Gods sake ?

RainyDay · 12-12-2006 10:49PM

vesp wrote:

So much for civil service efficiency. If it was a big private company it would either have gone bust long ago or else relocated to cheaper locations. How many big manufacturers are still in Dublin city centre for Gods sake ?

Why compare against big manufacturers? Are more sensible comparison would be against the big banks (HQs in Ballsbridge and Baggot St), or the major accounting firms (all HQ in Dublin city centre) or the major legal firms (all HQ in Dublin city centre). You're clutching at straws now, Vesp.

Give up your oul trolling and start talking sense.

very miffed dub · 12-12-2006 11:07PM

vesp wrote:

So much for civil service efficiency. If it was a big private company it would either have gone bust long ago or else relocated to cheaper locations. How many big manufacturers are still in Dublin city centre for Gods sake ?

Vesp -the reason for the inefficency and woeful service delivery is
D-E-C-E-N-T-R-A-L-I-S-A-T-I-O-N.

I want to say more but don't want to get banned!!!!!

NewDubliner · 13-12-2006 12:03AM

vesp wrote:

So much for civil service efficiency. If it was a big private company it would either have gone bust long ago or else relocated to cheaper locations. How many big manufacturers are still in Dublin city centre for Gods sake ?

The inefficiency is caused the very project that you are blindly supporting. Get it?

No private company would spend 2 billion euro, and risk ruining the business, without having any idea of what kind of return on investment would result. This is what the current project is about to do.

Dublin City centre is a great location for the public service. It has the best public transport infrastructure in the country. It benefits from economies of scale. It's served by DART, LUAS, Dublin Bus. Many staff cycle to work from nearby suburbs. Average commuting time is less than 1 hour, for some, it's just 30 minutes. Quality of life is enhanced by some of the finest public parks in Europe, a spectacular coastline and the great national parks of Wicklow. There's a great variety of shopping, theatres and restaurants. Dublin has internationally renowed universities. Travel between departments is easy as so many are concentrated there, often just walking distance apart.

It's not surprising that, living in such a great city and having family ties there, that so many people just don't want to live anywhere else.

Commercial property costs in Dublin are not an important factor.

A wise employer knows that staff together with their knowledge and experience are the greatest asset, and keeps his business where this asset is readily available.

vesp · 13-12-2006 12:23AM

NewDubliner wrote:

Commercial property costs in Dublin are not an important factor.

Not for you but it is for the taxpayer. The taxpayer demands a more cost effective, more efficient public service. The many people from around the country who have to work in Dublin often would give their right arm to work near their communities, and not to have to commute to Dublin to work....more often than not by motor vehicle. The commuter in Dublin deserves less congestion on the roads.

vesp · 13-12-2006 12:28AM

NewDubliner wrote:

Dublin City centre is a great location for the public service. . Average commuting time is less than 1 hour, for some, it's just 30 minutes.

For some its 2 hours. Think of the environmental effect alone from all the traffic in Dublin. "Average commuting time" is far less in decentralised locations, plus not as many people have to go to their real home at weekends. Ever witness the hordes of public servants leaving Dublin on Friday afternoon / evening. Ever even ring a govt dept at 4.30 or 4.45 then ?

NewDubliner · 13-12-2006 01:04AM

For some its 2 hours.

Some might get shorter commutes, but others who may feel forced to commute from Dublin in order to stay on their career track, will have longer commutes. Others, who don't get the town of their choice, could be commuting for some hours from their town to another rural location where they've managed to bag a promotion by 'decentralising'. You cannot assume that people will buy houses in the 'decentralisation' towns. That & all the lovely new 'one-off' houses.... Net-benefit to the environment: nil.

vesp wrote:

The many people from around the country who have to work in Dublin often would give their right arm to work near their communities, and not to have to commute to Dublin to work....more often than not by motor vehicle.

Yes, and they've volunteered to move, if they can get to the places they would like to live and if suitable jobs are located near their communities. How much will this cost?

As a taxpayer, I'd like to know much much extra tax I'll have to pay and how it will affect services. All I see from you are guesses & wishful thinking.

The commuter in Dublin deserves less congestion on the roads.

As explained very patiently, and on more than one occasion, the project will INCREASE congestion in Dublin.

vesp wrote:

The taxpayer demands a more cost effective, more efficient public service.

And the best way of providing this is to make sure that all projects that expend public money are subject to a proper cost/benefit analysis, just as would happen in a 'big private company', yes?

It's been explained to you already, that the plan will result in increased costs, and lowered efficiency.

vesp wrote:

Ever even ring a govt dept at 4.30 or 4.45 then ?

Yes and later. I always been able to reach someone helpful. Unlike many 'big private companies' where you're condemned to call-centre hell.

TempestSabre · 13-12-2006 01:24AM

vesp wrote:

Not for you but it is for the taxpayer. The taxpayer demands a more cost effective, more efficient public service. The many people from around the country who have to work in Dublin often would give their right arm to work near their communities, and not to have to commute to Dublin to work....more often than not by motor vehicle. The commuter in Dublin deserves less congestion on the roads.

10,000 or even 20,000 isn't going to have any effect on congestion. But you've been told that already.

So you're suggestion to make it more efficient is to lose the experienced staff and replace them with new inexperienced staff the main criteria for their suitablility being there they live, not their experience or qualifications which will be secondary.

To be honest the new immigrants are likely to be more qualified than the locals, so I can't see you'll get 10,000 new jobs for locals either.

But once all the departments are all around the country instead of walking across town for a meeting and it taking up an afternoon. You'll have people driving all over the country becaue nothing will be near anything. Staying overnight claiming expenses, and losing two days for the same meeting. Can't see that being more cost efficient, or productive, But maybe it will be.

I don't understand why people are so against people keeping early hours. Do you think all those civil servants keeping 9-5 hours would help with the congestion you keep referring too? Why not have people work 7 to 3 if that suits them? If extended opening hours are needed do you think there is not cost for opening these hours.

oscarBravo · 13-12-2006 11:09AM

vesp banned for a week for trolling - you can't say you weren't warned.

RainyDay, don't accuse people of trolling, thanks - that's my job.

NewDubliner · 13-12-2006 07:22PM

The strange thing about this project is that if you ask almost anyone about it, there's a tacit acknowledgment that it's going to fizzle out soon after one or two more photo-opportunities.

Yet, the CAF, official circulars, business plans and risk statements all carry on as if the whole scheme is going to be accomplished by 2009. It's like communist apparatchiks having to profess their tital belief in the '5 year plan' even though, they know it's utter fantasy.

I think this project has been a major wake-up call for those whose jobs are at risk, that the truth can be twisted so freely by ruthless politicians and lobby groups.

Victor · 13-12-2006 08:26PM

vesp, if you are still reading.

I was at a two-day meeting today of 129 people (plus facilitators, but they could be from anywhere, they just had to be briefed) from Taoiseach, Education, Environment, Transport, Justice, Garda, HSE, NRA, RSA, Bus Eireann, Dublin Bus, Irish Rail, PIAB, several councils, several colleges and a variety of voluntary groups and private companies.

The only practical place to have such a meeting (because video conferencing wouldn't really work) is somewhere on the Dublin-Port Laoise axis (or maybe Dublin-Athlone). Why are we sending people to Youghal, Dungarvan, Cahirciveen and Ballina?

what to do? · 14-12-2006 11:56PM

posted on this a few pages back.

am a dub, born and bred. totally opposed to decentralisation, in its present format.

however, following this thread for the last month or so, it seems that an awful lot of bashing is going on of anyone who expresses any comment in favour of decentralisation. people being asked to prove their assertions, yet people in the anti-decentralisation camp seem to be making some fairly sweeping statements as well - dont know how to do the quote people thing with the quotes in boxes.

what is trolling by the way??

NewDubliner · 15-12-2006 09:00AM

what to do? wrote:

posted on this a few pages back.
however, following this thread for the last month or so, it seems that an awful lot of bashing is going on of anyone who expresses any comment in favour of decentralisation. people being asked to prove their assertions,

There has been debate. Statements and assertions have been challenged. If anyone had been 'bashed', they would have been banned. The onus of proof lies with the proponents of the current scheme.

You can't expend lots of money on the basis of favourable comments.

yet people in the anti-decentralisation camp seem to be making some fairly sweeping statements as well

Give examples? (Please do not feel 'bashed'.)

what is trolling by the way??

Pushing assertions without providing reasoned arguments or making statements without attempting to provide evidence or examples to back them up.

In effect: lobbing 'opinion grenades' and running away.

Macy · 18-12-2006 10:29AM

what to do? wrote:

people being asked to prove their assertions, yet people in the anti-decentralisation camp seem to be making some fairly sweeping statements as well

That's because the costs, the numbers who want to move and the effect on organisational efficiency are clear and have been stated repeatedly. What none of the proponents of decentralisation can come up with are tangible benefits for the state or the organisations involved. If people are going to state that costs will be reduced they should back up their arguement with figures. If they say efficiency will be improved they should explain how. If they say that people from the country want to move home they should show how they come to that conclusion when the CAF are clear there isn't the demand from Dublin based civil and public servants. If people want to argue it supports regional development they should show how, as it's at odds of the National Spatial Strategy.

Do you expect the anti decentralisation side of the debate to disprove figures that the propenents don't even bother producing?

NewDubliner · 22-12-2006 02:42PM

This letter appeared in the Irish Times, Dec 22, 2006, from the CEO of Concern, it's quite thoughtfully reasoned unlike the abusive remarks of the FF/PD:

Audit of overseas aid
Irish Times
Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2006,
Madam, - Paul Cullen's report on the audit of overseas aid raises, two issues of fundamental public importance (The Irish Times, December 19th). The first relates to how effectively Irish taxpayers' money is being spent in the aid programme.

The second relates to the impact of the Government's decentralisation policy.

The current aid programme is recognised, nationally and internationally, as being of high quality. Over the next five years resources for aid will increase substantially as the Government moves to reach the UN target of 0.7 per cent of GNP. The public needs to have confidence that money for aid is being used effectively to respond to emergencies, reduce poverty and promote sustainable development.

If, as the audit report suggests, there are "insufficient checks against fraud and major staff shortages in the evaluation and auditing of aid programmes", such confidence will be undermined. It is incumbent on the Government to put the necessary staff and robust control systems in place.

From Concern's perspective, we would be worried if the reference in the audit report to deficiencies in accounting procedures and internal controls in some of the agencies partnering Irish Aid could be interpreted as a general comment on aid agencies. We know our internal systems and accounting systems are robust and we have regularly won the award for the most transparent accounts for not-for-profit organisations in the annual competition organised by the Leinster Society of Chartered Accountants. We would expect Irish Aid to apply the highest audit and value for money standards to any of its partners, whether aid agencies, UN bodies or governments.

The second issue raised by the audit report is the effect of the decentralisation of Irish Aid to Limerick. Extra costs, loss of experienced staff and a reduction of coherence between the aid programme and foreign policy are identified as potentially significant problems. It will be a major challenge for the aid programme to sustain its quality and impact while expanding rapidly.

Similar issues apply to other parts of the civil and public service which are being decentralised. Decentralisation undoubtedly benefits individuals and towns and cities around Ireland. But the potential costs - loss of experienced staff and corporate memory, increased travel and liaison costs, a reduced "whole of Government" approach to public policy, the negative effect on public sector morale - need to be independently assessed. A rigorous risk analysis, which has clearly not been applied to the decision to move Irish Aid to Limerick, needs to be applied to the whole decentralisation project.

Since becoming chief executive of Concern five years ago, I have scrupulously avoided any comment on aid policy or wider national policy which could be interpreted as being party political. Nor would I wish these comments on decentralisation to be construed in this way. But how decentralisation will affect the long-term capacity of the public sector to formulate policy and deliver services is an issue of strategic national importance which transcends party politics. - Yours, etc,

TOM ARNOLD,

Chief Executive,

Concern,

Dublin 2.

RainyDay · 29-12-2006 10:57AM

holly_johnson wrote:

hmmm that article is interesting. I wonder how Mr Hawkes is communting? I know he lived in Dublin 15; so has he "upped sticks"? I doubt it.

Looks like Billy Hawkes is indeed commuting in the opposite direction - from http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1747059&issue_id=15045 (Registration required);

But in a quirky twist of fate, it is now the two bosses - Commissioner Billy Hawkes and his deputy Gary Davis - who have the longest commute.

Compared to their stressed out employees, their's was always an enviable lot. A quick 20-minute cycle or a half-hour walk and they were at their desks in the old office on Dublin's Abbey Street. Since decentralisation, however, they must add on an hour-long train journey, not that this seems to phase them.

"On the train you can be working on emails, on the blackberry, and scanning the papers. The trains aren't crowded coming this way. It's all quite relaxed and easy. The only problem is I'm not getting as much exercise," joked Mr Hawkes.

NewDubliner · 29-12-2006 07:52PM

That was a real 'cheerleader' article in the Indo. Not one critical question about how many extra staff had to be hired, nor how much it cost to train them and how the impact on productivity will be measured.

Typical lazy journalism from the Indo, government press office probably figured Christmas/New Year was a good time to slip a spin story past the editors.

Decentralisation

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