Decentralisation

El Stuntman

smccarrick wrote:

Stop throwing wild comments about.
At present there are 32,198 serving civil servants. Of these 64% are female and 43% are over the age of 50. Fewer than 13,000 of the civil servants are based in Dublin. There has been an embargo on recruitment in the civil service since 2000 (which has resulted in the hiring of a lot of contractors and people on temporary shortterm contracts). The bloat in the public sector (note: public sector, not civil service) is in the HSE, who employ almost three times more staff than all the civil servants, gardai, teachers etc combined......

thanks for the clarification, I should have said public sector...

cyclopath2001

El Stuntman wrote:

making them redundant would be a good move, it would cut the bloated civil service numbers a tad anyway

I don't follow your logic. Why fire experienced, proven people & replace them with inexperienced culchies?

Surely it would be better, simpler & cheaper to call off the project?

Firetrap

One of today's papers (can't remember which one as I was leafing through it in somebody else's house) has an article in it about FÁS moving to Birr. The gist of the thing is that a handful of people recently relocated there and that temporary offices have been fitted out. It wouldn't have anything to do with Parlon Country and the upcoming general election, would it?

Capt'n Midnight

smccarrick wrote:

The bloat in the public sector (note: public sector, not civil service) is in the HSE, who employ almost three times more staff than all the civil servants, gardai, teachers etc combined......

http://www.irishhealth.com/index.html?level=4&id=11234

The number of people employed in the health service in 2000 was 81,513, and, according to HSE figures it had increased to 106,273 (HSE plus voluntary sector) by the end of last year.
...
The number of managers and administrators employed in the health service in 2000 was 81,513, and at December 2006 it was 17,262, a 40% increase.

- yeah there is a typo there - but 40% !!!

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/health/2007/0130/1169680964192.html http://www.irishhealth.com/hospital/hosp_newsstory.html?id=10966&sortcrit=chrono

The Government has given approval to the Health Service Executive (HSE) to employ up to 108,000 people in future

Here is a simple solution to the problem - hospitals are located all over the country and the HSE tend to hire more administrators than nurses or other category of medical staff ...

Meanwhile what's being done about economic blackspots in Dublin city ?

NewDubliner

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Meanwhile what's being done about economic blackspots in Dublin city ?

You mean like Finglas or Dublin 8?

The government is moving the jobs from there to Carrick-on-Shannon and Naas and Kildare.

Macy

allie_e17 wrote:

One of today's papers (can't remember which one as I was leafing through it in somebody else's house) has an article in it about FÁS moving to Birr. The gist of the thing is that a handful of people recently relocated there and that temporary offices have been fitted out.

At a cost of €1 million, with a 2 year lease! Yet some on this board would blame the civil and public servant for wasting money!

allie_e17 wrote:

It wouldn't have anything to do with Parlon Country and the upcoming general election, would it?

He turned up at the opening with photographer in tow. The picture is in the local papers, even though half the people standing beside him won't be based in Birr! Both articles, presumable based on information from the Minister, also contain the lie that a site has been purchased. It hasn't.

Rosen

allie_e17 wrote:

One of today's papers (can't remember which one as I was leafing through it in somebody else's house) has an article in it about FÁS moving to Birr. The gist of the thing is that a handful of people recently relocated there and that temporary offices have been fitted out. It wouldn't have anything to do with Parlon Country and the upcoming general election, would it?

Wont be Parlon country for long methinks

eigrod

Mr Parlon, look where the pig-headed pursuit of this policy has got YOU.

Let's hope that should Labour form part of the next Government, that Joan Burton has the courage to follow through on her pre-election promises to totally re-visit this money-wasting shambles of a project.

Firetrap

I'm not sorry to see Parlon go but that isn't why the voters of Laois/Offaly gave him the boot. At the last election he was the golden boy of the IFA and a lot of farming folk (who'd normally vote for Charles Flanagan) voted for Parlon who'd promised them the sun moon and stars. As we now know, he didn't do a lot for farming but he did do a lot for FÁS.

NewDubliner

Parlon was set up by FF to take the flak for the project.

It's not the end of it.

Firetrap

True. Halting decentralisation is like stopping a moving ship - even if FF wanted to scrap the plan, it's got a certain amount of momentum. Even though the general agreement is that it's a hairbrained scheme and is generally unpopular amongst Dublin based public servants, there are people who would dearly love to move closer to home or get out of Dublin. Also, no politician would be brave enough to turn around and tell the towns waiting for a department that it's not coming. If Fine Gael had got into power, what's the bet some of the departments earmarked for the home towns of their top brass would have moved?

Regardless of whether Fianna Fail set him up, Parlon was only too willing to take up the cause of decentralisation. He was one of that breed of fiercely ambitious politicians who was determined to make a name for himself and pull any stroke he could to that end. Good riddance to bad rubbish.

NewDubliner

The primary driver of 'decentralisation' is not staff wanting to leave Dublin, it's property developers.

There's no way the government would spend a billion euro or so, just to please its staff.

Dinarius

NewDubliner wrote:

The primary driver of 'decentralisation' is not staff wanting to leave Dublin, it's property developers......

.....and vote buying.

D.

ps........I would dearly love to know, from anyone who has experience of both locations, if any real work is done in the Legal Aid Board, Cahirciveen, or is most of it done in the Dublin office - which was never closed, as promised. For this alone, O'Donoghue should have been jailed.

Kingdom

Dinarius wrote:

.....and vote buying.

D.

ps........I would dearly love to know, from anyone who has experience of both locations, if any real work is done in the Legal Aid Board, Cahirciveen, or is most of it done in the Dublin office - which was never closed, as promised. For this alone, O'Donoghue should have been jailed.

Worked there for a year. Yeafh real work is done there definitely. It is the hub of the department, although there is still a HQ in Dublin. It couldn't be closed a s the IT dept is based there.

Aldini98

eigrod wrote:

Mr Parlon, look where the pig-headed pursuit of this policy has got YOU.

Let's hope that should Labour form part of the next Government, that Joan Burton has the courage to follow through on her pre-election promises to totally re-visit this money-wasting shambles of a project.

Briliant post. The look on his face on Friday, just brilliant. Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Parlon Country my ass !!!!

Macy

After McDowell, Parlon was the one I wanted gone. Even Cowen has distanced himself from the debacle of FAS and Birr. 14 people based there (12 moved in the week before the election :rolleyes: ), not one full department, just a collection of individuals cleaning up on T&S back to Dublin for meetings several times a week.

Liam Byrne

cyclopath2001 wrote:

I don't follow your logic. Why fire experienced, proven people & replace them with inexperienced culchies?

Surely it would be better, simpler & cheaper to call off the project?

Firstly, at least some of the decentralisation is to the other cities, so there's a damn good chance that both words in your "inexperienced culchies" slur are inflammatory and inaccurate. Even for those decentralised jobs that are earmarked for rural areas, there's a good chance that there are plenty of well-educated and experienced people available just looking for an opportunity to get a decent job in their own community without having to move.

Secondly, if it were a multinational company that upped sticks and moved to another country, it'd be tough titty....move or find a new job! At least the decentralisation project allows people the option to keep their jobs. If Dell, for example, moved to Galway, the Limerick people working there wouldn't have the option of saying no. Why should people working in public service have an extra benefit ?

Thirdly, the rest of us have to listen to so much radio airtime being given to Dubs complaining about the bloody M50 (and now we have to pay for it so that ye lot can drive to work, leaving SFA money for the desperately-required infrastructure in the rest of the country) that I'm surprised that ye ALL don't want to leave..... Shannon Airport is being hung out to dry at the same time as Bertie's da-da-da-dublin focus is licking arses at Dublin Airport to expand it! Why can't Dubs get a train down when going on holidays, like the rest of us have to ? Why isn't there a train from Cork to Sligo, going through Limerick and Galway ? Why do we have to get the train to Dublin to go to the West ? No, we're hung out to dry while Dublin gets everything it wants like a spoilt child....if the population was more balanced (and we had a Mayo man as Taoiseach), maybe things would be done in a less Pale-focussed manner, but as it is, we're ignored......

Fourthly, with attitudes like that, I'm not sure we want to accept ye......maybe we could have a veto and only people without prejudices could get the decentralised jobs ?

eigrod

Liam Byrne wrote:

Firstly, at least some of the decentralisation is to the other cities, so there's a damn good chance that both words in your "inexperienced culchies" slur are inflammatory and inaccurate. Even for those decentralised jobs that are earmarked for rural areas, there's a good chance that there are plenty of well-educated and experienced people available just looking for an opportunity to get a decent job in their own community without having to move.

If all of the decentralisation plan was to other cities, then it would have had a far better chance of succeeding. The fact that it's only objective was to give every constituency in the country a piece of the cake is the main reason that it is in trouble and going to cost an exhorbitant amount of taxpayer's money were it to be implemented in full.

Liam Byrne wrote:

Secondly, if it were a multinational company that upped sticks and moved to another country, it'd be tough titty....move or find a new job! At least the decentralisation project allows people the option to keep their jobs. If Dell, for example, moved to Galway, the Limerick people working there wouldn't have the option of saying no. Why should people working in public service have an extra benefit ?

If Dell moved to Galway, it would be because it made economic sense. If decentralisation is about economic sense, then why don't the Department of Finance make public the figures that prove that it makes economic sense (they've had 3 years now to get the figures together) ? I think we all know the answer to that.

Liam Byrne wrote:

Thirdly, the rest of us have to listen to so much radio airtime being given to Dubs complaining about the bloody M50 (and now we have to pay for it so that ye lot can drive to work, leaving SFA money for the desperately-required infrastructure in the rest of the country) that I'm surprised that ye ALL don't want to leave..... Shannon Airport is being hung out to dry at the same time as Bertie's da-da-da-dublin focus is licking arses at Dublin Airport to expand it! Why can't Dubs get a train down when going on holidays, like the rest of us have to ? Why isn't there a train from Cork to Sligo, going through Limerick and Galway ? Why do we have to get the train to Dublin to go to the West ? No, we're hung out to dry while Dublin gets everything it wants like a spoilt child....

If the demand for that service were there, then such a service would exist. It doesn't exist because it makes a loss. Scattering civil servants to the four corners of the country will not make a blind bit of difference to the demand for such a service.

Liam Byrne wrote:

if the population was more balanced (and we had a Mayo man as Taoiseach), maybe things would be done in a less Pale-focussed manner, but as it is, we're ignored......

The most likely Mayo man to become taoiseach has gone on record as saying that this decentralisation project is a mess.

Victor

Liam Byrne wrote:

Thirdly, the rest of us have to listen to so much radio airtime being given to Dubs complaining about the bloody M50

I'm not certain, but I suspect few civil servants use the M50 to get to work.

BostonB

allie_e17 wrote:

I'm not sorry to see Parlon go but that isn't why the voters of Laois/Offaly gave him the boot. At the last election he was the golden boy of the IFA and a lot of farming folk (who'd normally vote for Charles Flanagan) voted for Parlon who'd promised them the sun moon and stars. As we now know, he didn't do a lot for farming but he did do a lot for FÁS.

I doubt the staff in FAS would agree with you, since they have refused to move and went on strike when contracts were changed to get them to move. The only thing Parlon was interested in was Parlon.

The_Conductor

Liam Byrne wrote:

Firstly, at least some of the decentralisation is to the other cities, so there's a damn good chance that both words in your "inexperienced culchies" slur are inflammatory and inaccurate.

First of all- there was a National Spatial Strategy, which clearly identified a number of "Gateway towns" that would benefit from being encouraged to develope through both jobs and infrastructure. Unfortunately the decentralisation scheme chose to ignore that totally.

Liam Byrne wrote:

Even for those decentralised jobs that are earmarked for rural areas, there's a good chance that there are plenty of well-educated and experienced people available just looking for an opportunity to get a decent job in their own community without having to move.

Perhaps. However you might be surprised to know the number of civil servants with advanced qualifications in particular areas (who are not considered as "specialised staff" by the government) who are supposed to be totally interchangeable. I, for example, am a civil servant holding a degree in forestry and a second business and IT degree (both earned before I joined the civil service, and both of which are relevant to my job). Obviously the number of people randomly scattered around the country with similar qualifications will be a little thin on the ground. My AP is doing a law degree my PO similiarly......

Liam Byrne wrote:

Secondly, if it were a multinational company that upped sticks and moved to another country, it'd be tough titty....move or find a new job!

First of all this is irrelevant. It is not proposed to move the civil service to another country- its to randomly scatter it around the country into as many constituencies as possible. Secondly- it wouldn't be tough titty. I worked in a multinational company for 7 years before I joined the service. When they relocated- I elected to stay with them. In recognition of my expertise which would not be lost I was given a salary rise and a petrol allowance (to compensate the extra distance I would be travelling to work). This is not available. When my job was eventually outsourced (to India) I did go and find a new job (where I am at present).

Liam Byrne wrote:

At least the decentralisation project allows people the option to keep their jobs. If Dell, for example, moved to Galway, the Limerick people working there wouldn't have the option of saying no. Why should people working in public service have an extra benefit ?

First of all- you would keep 'a' job, not necessarily your job. There is no guarantee that you would get the job at which you are proficient in another location. Secondly- as per my previous paragraph- Dell have offered relocation packages who moved intercountry from one location to another. They were (in the past anyway) incentivised to do so.

As a further comment- fully one sixth (1/6) of the jobs being decentralised belong to civil servants whose wives or husbands are also working in the civil service. In extremely few cases are they being sent to similar locations. One of my colleagues is supposed to be going to Portlaoise- his wife to Letterkenny...... Another is commuting every weekend from Athenry to Cork to be with her husband and 3 kids (meanwhile renting a bedsit in Galway for accomodation on weekdays). This was extremely poorly thought out......

Liam Byrne wrote:

Thirdly, the rest of us have to listen to so much radio airtime being given to Dubs complaining about the bloody M50 (and now we have to pay for it so that ye lot can drive to work, leaving SFA money for the desperately-required infrastructure in the rest of the country) that I'm surprised that ye ALL don't want to leave.....

Very few civil servants drive to work- because very few civil servants have parking privileges, most of us use public transport. The M50 is a feeder route around Dublin- not into Dublin. It is a mess- but very poor planning on the part of the government is to blame- not a few civil servants meandering their way to work in the morning. The public did not pay for the M50- it was a PPP (public private partnership) with Cement Roadstone (which is partly why there is a toll bridge on it).

Liam Byrne wrote:

Shannon Airport is being hung out to dry at the same time as Bertie's da-da-da-dublin focus is licking arses at Dublin Airport to expand it!

No- the government is not "licking arses" at Dublin Airport. Last week they refused Dublin airport permission to rise landing charges to help affray the building costs associated with the new Pier D terminal building. Its estimated Dublin airport will have 1.2 billion in debt by 2009. On the contrary- the lions share of the expansion of Cork airport and Shannon were borne by Dublin Airport when Aer Rianta was dissolved. Its hoped to offset some of this debt with asset sales (notably airport shares in the UK (Birmingham and some others).

Liam Byrne wrote:

Why can't Dubs get a train down when going on holidays, like the rest of us have to ? Why isn't there a train from Cork to Sligo, going through Limerick and Galway ? Why do we have to get the train to Dublin to go to the West ? No, we're hung out to dry while Dublin gets everything it wants like a spoilt child....if the population was more balanced (and we had a Mayo man as Taoiseach), maybe things would be done in a less Pale-focussed manner, but as it is, we're ignored......

Because its not economically viable. Plain and simple. Dublin does not get everything it wants- far from it- if you checked national finances- far more is spent on the infrastructure per head of population in almost any other county other than Dublin. There is a massive net transfer of funds from Dublin to the rest of the country.

Liam Byrne wrote:

Fourthly, with attitudes like that, I'm not sure we want to accept ye......maybe we could have a veto and only people without prejudices could get the decentralised jobs ?

Having a reasoned debate dealing in facts does not in any manner display "prejudices". I also take from your opinions and total lack of knowledge about the proposed decentralisation scheme that you haven't bothered to read this thread- or even a flavour of it, to get a picture of what is actually proposed. The only prejudice being shown here is on your part where you seem to be massively prejudiced against Dublin and people who either live there or are from there.

Decentralisation is not about Dublin. Its about the civil service and what is good for the country as a whole. The National Spatial Strategy was conceived as a National plan to readdress perceived developmental shortcomings on a regional basis. The current proposals trample over the NSS and fritter away any potential gains that may accrue on a local basis.

The biggest problem in this country is parochial politics whereby people only care what they can get for their constituency or their immediate area, and simply refuse to try to look at or acknowledge the bigger picture. Ireland is a small country on the outskirts of Europe- we need to look after the country as a whole- as should have been done by acknowledging and implementing the NSS.

Dinarius

Liam Byrne wrote:

Secondly, if it were a multinational company that upped sticks and moved to another country, it'd be tough titty....move or find a new job! At least the decentralisation project allows people the option to keep their jobs. If Dell, for example, moved to Galway, the Limerick people working there wouldn't have the option of saying no. Why should people working in public service have an extra benefit ?

People really have to stop trotting out this chestnut. It simply doesn't wash. You're comparing apples and oranges. A multi-national moves purely for economic reasons (that's why there all here to begin with!) and for no other. You do NOT divide a civil and public service into its constituent parts for economic reasons. So, stop using one to justify the other.

[/QUOTE]
Why isn't there a train from Cork to Sligo, going through Limerick and Galway ? Why do we have to get the train to Dublin to go to the West ?[/QUOTE]

You're right. But, blame Fianna Fail and the bould Tod Andrews: the most destructive individual ever to hold public office. Quote: "The Carrickmines tram was simply there to serve a few Protestant solicitors." Unquote.

D.

NewDubliner

Liam Byrne wrote:

there's a good chance that there are plenty of well-educated and experienced people available just looking for an opportunity to get a decent job in their own community without having to move.

No there are not, the statistics already show this.

The_Conductor

smccarrick wrote:

As a further comment- fully one sixth (1/6) of the jobs being decentralised belong to civil servants whose wives or husbands are also working in the civil service. In extremely few cases are they being sent to similar locations. One of my colleagues is supposed to be going to Portlaoise- his wife to Letterkenny...... Another is commuting every weekend from Athenry to Cork to be with her husband and 3 kids (meanwhile renting a bedsit in Galway for accomodation on weekdays). This was extremely poorly thought out......

I have been requested to clarify this statement.
There are at present 971 couples, as identified by either the Decentralisation Implementation Body or the Public Appointment Service, working in Civil Service jobs earmarked for decentralisation. In not all cases are both partners obliged to decentralise, but in the majority of cases either one or both are contractually obliged to decentralise. At present there are no considerations being given to placing a spouse or partner in an adjacent location (numbers are however being kept).

BostonB

smccarrick wrote:

I have been requested to clarify this statement.
There are at present 971 couples, as identified by either the Decentralisation Implementation Body or the Public Appointment Service, working in Civil Service jobs earmarked for decentralisation. In not all cases are both partners obliged to decentralise, but in the majority of cases either one or both are contractually obliged to decentralise. At present there are no considerations being given to placing a spouse or partner in an adjacent location (numbers are however being kept).

There would also be partners not in Public sector who also work, and have to relocate to find work, that may not be available in the decentralised location.

Firetrap

BostonB wrote:

I doubt the staff in FAS would agree with you, since they have refused to move and went on strike when contracts were changed to get them to move. The only thing Parlon was interested in was Parlon.

I was being sarcastic. Sometimes these things don't come across in print.

Liam Byrne

Some very valid points by smccarrick, and I'd have to admit that my post was affected a little too much by my reaction to the self-important "ignorant culchies" post.

But the fact is that we (the country) WILL all have to pay for the buyout of Dublin's toll bridge if Bertie and Shane Ross get their way. In the meantime Limerick's new tunnel, years overdue, and also designed to allow external traffic (Cork/Galway), is being tolled.

The M50 might be a choked orbital route, but it is only that because all major road and rail links lead to Dublin - if there were viable alternatives, people would use them (e.g. if "culchies" didn't have to drive to the Dublin airport to go anywhere).

But those just an aside - basically my point was that if you listen to the "national" radio stations to hear Dublin folk whinging about house prices and traffic, etc, so you'd expect that they'd want to move. Then, when an opportunity arises, they don't want to. That was confusing.

I can see and understand completely how the couples/families issue would be a MAJOR factor, and should be dealt with WAY better.

Macy

Liam Byrne wrote:

But those just an aside - basically my point was that if you listen to the "national" radio stations to hear Dublin folk whinging about house prices and traffic, etc, so you'd expect that they'd want to move. Then, when an opportunity arises, they don't want to. That was confusing.

But only confusing in that you are assuming that the same people that are ringing Joe Duffy/ Brenda Power are the public servants that want to move. There are people that are willing to move and who it suits, but there are less again that it suits to move to the location they're being pressurised into going too.

The above theory also ignores other aspects of social infrastructure such as family and friend support networks which work both ways - for example we act as a support for my wifes retired parents, as well as them acting as support for our family.

It is not as simple as congested Dublin bad, spacious rural good.

NewDubliner

Liam Byrne wrote:

Some very valid points by smccarrick, and I'd have to admit that my post was affected a little too much by my reaction to the self-important "ignorant culchies" post.

Nobody said 'culchies' were ignorant.

The fact is that the current scheme proposes to replace experienced 'jackeens' with inexperienced 'culchies'.

The M50 and Dublin airport have nothing to do with decentralisation.

The scheme has failed and will continue to be a costly failure (costing you and me money) as it was not properly researched.

Please tell your friends.

BostonB

allie_e17 wrote:

I was being sarcastic. Sometimes these things don't come across in print.

Ah my bad.