Decentralisation

The_Conductor · 08-11-2006 09:47AM

very miffed dub wrote:

Thank you Fianna Fáil for screwing up my life and my families lives for the last three years!!!!

Thanks for letting me rant

A Very MIFFED Dub

Well you know what to do- make them pay for it at the next elections. Get every family member who is entitled to vote to the local ballot stations and spread the news.

Hotblack Desiato · 08-11-2006 02:24PM

very miffed dub wrote:

The unions are a complete waste of time. I'm cancelling my membership of the PSEU this week.

Please write to the union HQ and tell them what you are doing and WHY

There is no hope for change as long as they can claim to be representing the wishes of members

Apathetic Dublin branches / members are out-voted and out-manouevred by motivated, vocal, rural branches who are strongly in favour of more mobility in 'country' posts and damn the consequences to the membership as a whole

I have seen this at union ADC and attempting to put the case forward for Dublin members is almost impossible, those who tried were ruled out of order and shouted at and ridiculed

Believe me you are by no means the only one jumping ship (and why remain in an organisation working against your interests?) and many more, including activists and committee members, are considering it. When enough members leave to start to threaten the fat pension funds of the union officials, then they will take notice - that will be too late to salvage the careers of thousands of us, though.

Edit: several members have told me the only reason they are remaining in the union is the Income Continuance Plan... no wonder HQ pushes it so hard...

pete · 08-11-2006 02:53PM

ninja900 wrote:

Edit: several members have told me the only reason they are remaining in the union is the Income Continuance Plan... no wonder HQ pushes it so hard...

the only reason i haven't left the PSEU yet is because there's nowhere else to go.

TempestSabre · 08-11-2006 03:42PM

pete wrote:

the only reason i haven't left the PSEU yet is because there's nowhere else to go.

I think a few in our office left and went to Siptu.

holly_johnson · 08-11-2006 03:43PM

Siptu? I didn't think they'd represent us. If they did, how much pulling power would they have? Would they have seats at Departmental Council meetings etc?

TempestSabre · 08-11-2006 04:14PM

holly_johnson wrote:

Siptu? I didn't think they'd represent us. If they did, how much pulling power would they have? Would they have seats at Departmental Council meetings etc?

I'm a semi state...

holly_johnson · 08-11-2006 04:59PM

TempestSabre wrote:

I'm a semi state...

Ah, all becomes clear.

Rael · 08-11-2006 10:13PM

NewDubliner wrote:

It's government policy and FF/PD look likely to get re-elected. Kildare is an important consituency. Tom Parlon is very anxious to demolish the computer centre so he can build a huge office block on the site.

Where exactly is the computer Centre for Revenue located? I'm interested in order to figure out travelling time etc

Cheers,

Rael

NewDubliner · 08-11-2006 11:11PM

Rael wrote:

Where exactly is the computer Centre for Revenue located? I'm interested in order to figure out travelling time etc

Revenue IT staff are in two locations: Computer Centre near Heuston Station and other offices in Sth Great Georges Street.

My guess is that you'd be based in George's Street while they prepare you for the advance party of sacrificial IT staff to go to Kildare Town.

Hotblack Desiato · 09-11-2006 03:34PM

I used to work in Revenue IT in Sth Gt Georges St

Pure speculation of course - but I reckon that although John's Rd will be sold (financially it's a compelling move) Revenue IT will never leave Dublin. The staffing problems will be immense and even Parlon (who will be lucky to survive the election) can't bull**** his way out of this one.

Department of Finance will put the kybosh on anything that could possibly disrupt the smooth flow of our money into their coffers...

NewDubliner · 09-11-2006 07:14PM

ninja900 wrote:

Pure speculation of course - but I reckon that although John's Rd will be sold (financially it's a compelling move) Revenue IT will never leave Dublin. The staffing problems will be immense and even Parlon (who will be lucky to survive the election) can't bull**** his way out of this one.

Word in the industry is that the computer centre move would be lucky to break even. That is to say, the cost of moving would more or less equal the profit from redeveloping the site. That's before staff-loss costs and risk-related losses are factored in.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-11-2006 03:18PM

NewDubliner wrote:

Word in the industry is that the computer centre move would be lucky to break even. That is to say, the cost of moving would more or less equal the profit from redeveloping the site. That's before staff-loss costs and risk-related losses are factored in.

Good point - but Parlon et al just see the €€€€ signs from property sell-offs and don't even consider staff related costs. Sure we're all interchangeable pegs which can be fitted into any hole (pun intended, given some of the locations on offer) no problem at all, as far as they're concerned

NewDubliner · 12-11-2006 09:35AM

From the Sunday Tribune, Nov 12th, The writer has actually been quite kind in omitting more embarrassing facts. But in any case, 'BertieWorld' may explain why the average citizen is not demanding that the money be spent on more worthwhile projects:

Reality is whatever Bertie wants it to be
Michael Clifford

IT WAS Maureen Dowd who coined the phrase 'BushWorld'. She wrote in the New York Times that a staffer in the White House told her the administration creates its own reality. "It's their world, we only live and die in it, " Dowd wrote. The real world is irrelevant. The administration ignores facts. It creates its own reality."

Keep on delivering the message, robustly, repeatedly, and it becomes fact. Whoosh!

Magic!

It's not as crazy as it seems. The media is a pussycat when it comes to government creating, rather than accepting, reality.

Twenty-four hour news needs to be fed constantly. The soundbite is king. The room for analysis is squeezed, reflection is left behind. Keep saying it and it becomes reality in the minds of the electorate.

As a form of spin, it has caught on this side of the Atlantic. Over here, we have 'BertieWorld', where facts are irrelevant, the message is all that matters, and if you keep saying it, the message becomes reality.

[edit]

Then we have BertieWorld's appearance at last Saturday's party conference. Cowen told John Bowman on RTE Radio that decentralisation was on course as planned, or at least, as planned in the latest revision. He said it and said it again.

Pesky reality: Enterprise Ireland has taken out a 25year lease on a building in Dublin designed to house 600 staff, despite plans to move to Shannon. Just 19 personnel have applied for the move.

In the vital area of technical and professional specialist staff, just 368 have applied for the 1,036 positions due to be decentralised. The whole programme is a shambles.

Yet Brian says the job is oxo.

Keep saying it and it becomes true, and if reality has to impinge on BertieWorld, it certainly won't be showing its face this side of the election.

[/edit]

Macy · 27-11-2006 04:11PM

I'm sure the 6 out of 400 that have volunteered to go are gutted....

Parlon's plans for Fas HQ scuppered by sale of site
Martin Frawley

THE long-running attempt by Fas to move to Birr, Co Offaly took another twist last week when the site it had secured in the midlands town was sold to a property developer.

The surprise development will be an acute embarrassment to the junior minister in charge of decentralisation, Tom Parlon, who has trumpeted the Fas move, involving over 400 staff, into the heart of his own constituency.

Over two years ago, Fas put down a deposit on a site just outside Birr for its new headquarters. It agreed to pay 1.5m for the site or around 300,000 an acre . . . more per acre than the Department of Justice paid for the site of the new prison in Thornton Hall, north Co Dublin.

The five-acre site was part of a 25-acre site owned by the voluntary housing agency Respond.

The Fas/Respond agreement was subject to planning permission and rights of way issues which sparked legal tussles over the last couple of years. A major dispute emerged as to who would build and maintain an access road to the site, without which the Fas headquarters would be effectively marooned.

While the row dragged on, Fas also became immersed in a bitter industrial dispute with its staff about the move to the midlands.

Then, last week, Respond returned the state agency's deposit and said it had sold the entire 25-acre site to a property developer.

More at www.tribune.ie

RainyDay · 27-11-2006 08:28PM

RTE 1 6 pm TV news had the first in a 2-part report on decentralisation tonight. Nothing particularly new, but it was fairly blunt on the impracticalities of the current scheme. It should be available on the RTE website.

TempestSabre · 27-11-2006 08:39PM

It seems that what will happen is that various departments and or agencies will rent space in Dublin to replace their buildings that have been sold off. At the same time they'll rent/buy more office space in the new location and move some staff down there, and even if its a tiny fraction of the original numbers, and the majority remain in Dublin, they'll claim its a success even its a disaster.

Schuhart · 28-11-2006 01:46AM

RainyDay wrote:

It should be available on the RTE website.

Its about half way down this page. As you say, nothing new but still very much posing the question of why are we combusting so much money on something so irrelevant.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/1127/6news.html

TempestSabre · 28-11-2006 01:55AM

Its a political play pure and simple. It makes no sense from any other angle.

No ones doing the maths and no one wants to do it. Show me the Money!

NewDubliner · 28-11-2006 07:48PM

6.1 news ran another report on 'decentralisation', today 28th Nov. They rather kindly described the Tullamore move as a success (The PO is really pleased...what a surprise) but without reference to costs or the number of people who'd moved house from Dublin.

I can see that we'll have plenty more 'successes' like this in the future, once the government has made people forget the objectives of the project.

NewDubliner · 30-11-2006 08:15PM

More progress on 'Decntralisation', the project which was to move people and their jobs out of Dublin

From the Examiner:

Cork decentralisation
Examiner
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2006
Staff training, recruitment and procurement are continuing for the decentralisation of 100 Department of Agriculture and Food personnel from the Cork office to Fermoy, and the relocation in Macroom project of three laboratories in Cork and three in Limerick.

A land swap with the Office of Public Works for social housing awaits the relocation of laboratories at Model Farm Road, Cork, to Macroom.

Schuhart · 30-11-2006 11:02PM

NewDubliner wrote:

6.1 news ran another report on 'decentralisation', today 28th Nov. They rather kindly described the Tullamore move as a success (The PO is really pleased...what a surprise) but without reference to costs or the number of people who'd moved house from Dublin.

The second report is here.

So the basic message is that the programme is a success because a guy with a
€100,000 salary plus defined benefits pension can get a shorter commute. How is this a priority?

Victor · 01-12-2006 04:02PM

Schuhart wrote:

How is this a priority?

Paid up FF member.

NewDubliner · 01-12-2006 06:31PM

From the "Irish Times", the spin-doctors seem to have got one over as there's no mention of training costs nor if the new staff are new-hires.

Data offices to relocate with only one of its Dublin staff
Irish Times
Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2006, by John Downes
Almost all staff members at the new offices of the Data Protection Commissioner, which are due to be officially opened by Tanaiste Michael McDowell in Portarlington, Co Laois, in 10 days' time, are newly employed.

This is because 21 of the Dublin-based agency's 22 staff refused to move there earlier this year under the Government's decentralisation plan.

At a conference in Dublin yesterday, the Data Protection Commissioner, Billy Hawkes, said that "almost 100 per cent" of the staff in his office were new to the job.

Last night, he said just one of his previous 22 staff - who are currently based in Abbey Street in Dublin - had chosen to relocate to the Co Laois town.

The offices open on Monday, with the official opening by Mr McDowell a week later.

Describing the move to Portarlington as "positive decentralisation", Mr Hawkes said he was "very happy" with the quality of staff recruited.

However, he acknowledged that he was sad to see some of his "excellent" older staff leave. While some of the new posts were oversubscribed, in other instances there was a "limited choice" of applicants for some posts at the new offices.

He said he had largely expected that few if any of his former staff would be willing to take part in the decentralisation process.

"Most of them were based in Dublin. So basically the chances of them wanting to go to Portarlington were quite small," he said.

"This is positive decentralisation. We are an independent office which can operate anywhere. This means that our office is full of staff who are rearing to go and who want to be in Portarlington.

"I'm not pretending it has been easy, but there are also positives that come with new staff. We have put in place crash programmes to train up the new staff, and they're responding very well to that."

Most of his former staff, who work as general civil servants, have been redeployed within the Department of Justice, Equality and Law reform and its agencies, according to Mr Hawkes.

Among the roles performed by employees of the Data Protection Commissioner's office are the provision of a help desk and website, and dealing with complaints and investigations on behalf of the public.

TempestSabre · 01-12-2006 07:00PM

I think the suggestion is 21 out of 22 are new. Thats obviously what they mean by positive decentralisation. New staff in new offices, but retain the old staff in Dublin.

holly_johnson · 01-12-2006 07:27PM

hmmm that article is interesting. I wonder how Mr Hawkes is communting? I know he lived in Dublin 15; so has he "upped sticks"? I doubt it.

vesp · 03-12-2006 04:05PM

Cannot believe the number of posts on this. Given the much higher property prices / office rents / commuting times etc in Dublin, and the amount of country folk working in Dublin who want to work closer to home, surely the logical thing is decentralisation ? It would save a fortune in commuting / help the environment / save money. Especially in these days of e-mail etc when you can work from anywhere. ( Even many call centres are now located in India etc ). A few govt employees tell me the objections are to do with looking for Com-PEN-SayTION for moving.

The_Conductor · 03-12-2006 04:28PM

vesp wrote:

Cannot believe the number of posts on this. Given the much higher property prices / office rents / commuting times etc in Dublin, and the amount of country folk working in Dublin who want to work closer to home, surely the logical thing is decentralisation ? It would save a fortune in commuting / help the environment / save money. Especially in these days of e-mail etc when you can work from anywhere. ( Even many call centres are now located in India etc ). A few govt employees tell me the objections are to do with looking for Com-PEN-SayTION for moving.

Compensation my arse.
Its to do with people living in communities where they have deep roots and where they would have difficulties laying down a similar support structure elsewhere.

It is not a simple case of a large number of country folk living in Dublin who are unwilling to move- indeed- had you read this thread you would see that the proposed decentralisation is in actual fact the fourth decentralisation scheme- at present slightly over 70% of the civil service (and over 90% of some departments) are actually outside of Dublin already.

The Unions have actually argued cases in favour of e-working arrangements, and these are being quite successfully rolled out, after trials, in a number of departments (however its not entirely e-working normally it entails working from the office two days a week- which is something that should be encouraged in my mind?)

The main argument against decentralisation- totally aside from the scheme being a cynical exercise in vote buying, is on cost grounds. It is not an exercise in getting people from Dublin to move down the country- its an exercise in jobs already down the country being shuffled around the place, with no concern for expertise being lost with movement all over the place.

There is an argument being made that expertise is only a concern when the staff concerned are technical in nature- that all other staff are totally interchangeable- unfortunately- as time will show- this is utter and total bull****......

Hotblack Desiato · 03-12-2006 04:46PM

vesp wrote:

Given the much higher property prices / office rents / commuting times etc in Dublin, and the amount of country folk working in Dublin who want to work closer to home, surely the logical thing is decentralisation ?

So, explain to me, if Dublin is filled with country people dying to get 'back home', why have so few Dublin-based civil servants applied to do so?
All that is really happening with this programme is that rural-based civil servants are playing musical chairs, going from one non-Dublin job to another.

It would save a fortune in commuting / help the environment / save money.

Some people are shortening their commute; others are greatly lengthening it so they can live in one-off houses in the a**e-hole of nowhere - how does that help the environment?
Saving money - that's a good one. There are huge costs associated with training staff moving jobs, loss of expertise/corporate memory, and ultimately keeping a few thousand Dublin staff on the books even though there's no longer any work in Dublin for them to do. All of these costs are being hushed up.

Especially in these days of e-mail etc when you can work from anywhere.

A brilliant point was made on Morning Ireland recently about decentralisation and the guff that videoconferencing etc. will solve everything.
The interviewee said - If videoconferencing etc. is so good, why do RTE much prefer interviewees to be present in person and not on the end of a phone? Touchê.

There are massive costs associated with the current decentralised offices, never mind the future ones - plenty of senior civil servants spend a great deal of time travelling up and down to Dublin. This costs a fortune in travel expenses and lost productivity, but this is all forgotten when decentralisation is proclaimed as a "great success".

( Even many call centres are now located in India etc ).

And what an excellent service they provide - NOT.

A few govt employees tell me the objections are to do with looking for Com-PEN-SayTION for moving.

This is complete grade A horses**t.
As has been stated from day 1 and repeatedly since, there is, and will be, NO compensation on offer (though there will be promotions of people not worthy of promotion but willing to move - how's that going to improve service delivery?)

Perhaps you are confused, there is a row at the moment about expenses for staff from non-Dublin locations who have to move to Dublin for 2-3 months to be trained into their new job.

If you need to stay in Dublin becase:
- you will be massively hit by stamp duty by buying another house
- your family and friends are all here
- your kids are happy in school and don't want to move away from all their friends
- you need to be near to elderly parents
- etc. etc.

then NO amount of compensation will solve these problems.

Is it only "country" people who are allowed to have close ties with their family and their locality and community? Believe it or not, Dublin people have ties too.

vesp · 03-12-2006 09:02PM

ninja900 wrote:

Dublin people have ties too.

Nobody is forcing them to move. They can spend half the day sitting in traffic for as long as they like, commuting to offices which the taxpayer has to pay more for than similar spec offices in the country. They are not going to be laid off or replaced by foreign based workers. They can continue being inefficient.

NewDubliner · 03-12-2006 09:36PM

vesp wrote:

They can spend half the day sitting in traffic for as long as they like,

Perhaps they don't. Perhaps they have 30-40 minute commutes on public transport or bicycle? Many do.

vesp wrote:

offices which the taxpayer has to pay more for than similar spec offices in the country.

The current plan will mean that offices in Dublin and down the country will have to be maintained. Anyway, building rents are a small part of costs.

vesp wrote:

They are not going to be laid off or replaced by foreign based workers.

IT will be outsourced and the existing IT staff will be removed from their jobs as no suitable replacements will be found at the rates offered. It's inevitable that the work will be outsourced & off shored. At least one government department is already out-sourcing programming work to China.

You've overlooked the skills loss issues, the taxpayer will have to pay three times over. Once to suffer drop in service, once again to retrain provincial workers and one more time for the 'white-walled' Dubliners.

You've also overlooked that all decentralisation plans to date have resulted in cost-overruns and increases in public-service numbers. There is no documented evidence that the benefits have been worth the cost.

There is also no evidence that the current plan will be worth it. Instead of rational arguments, all that's been put forward by its supporters are wild guesses and 'wishful thinking'.

Decentralisation

Comments