Decentralisation

NewDubliner

allie_e17 wrote:

Don't forget either that there are a lot of civil & public servants commuting from Offaly every day.

The problem is that nobody knows precisely how many and if their skills are compatible with the jobs being taken away from Dublin staff.

Nobody knows the final cost of facilitating the Offaly staff. Nobody seems to care about costs.

The 'divide and conquer;' tactic has succeeded in weakening the public sector union stance against this wasteful plan.

Firetrap

The plan was never about ensuring that people who were good at their jobs would continue to pursue careers in their respective departments but to get bodies into shiny new government offices down the country.

Parlon (and Brian Cowen) hail from a constituency which has a large number of people who are commuting long distances every day. Getting these people local jobs would theoretically win them votes. That's why I think Parlon's pushing it so much. The other reason of course is his insatiable lust for power.

I agree totally about the divide and conquer tactic. It's crippling the unions, especially the ones representing lower grade staff who don't have roots in Dublin and would dearly love to move.

Victor

allie_e17 wrote:

Having said that, towns like Tullamore would thrive anyway even if government departments never went near the place.

The Dept of Education already have their Building Unit there. Some staff commute from Dublin.

NewDubliner

Victor wrote:

The Dept of Education already have their Building Unit there. Some staff commute from Dublin.

Any idea why they've not moved home to Tullamore?

Victor

NewDubliner wrote:

Any idea why they've not moved home to Tullamore?

Because they are form Dublin?

Hotblack Desiato

allie_e17 wrote:

Parlon (and Brian Cowen) hail from a constituency which has a large number of people who are commuting long distances every day.

Yeah but how many are civil servants? :rolleyes:

pete

From the turbine yesterday

sunday turbine wrote:

Parlon OPW deal could lead to wider decentralisation chaos

JUNIOR finance minister Tom Parlon has proposed a bizarre deal to workers at the Office of Public Works which will allow staff who are refusing to decentralise to Trim, Co. Meath, from Dublin, to work from home and either email material or send it by ISDN lines to their new office. Parlon, the head of the OPW, has also done a deal with the Impact trade union which could derail the whole decentralisation programme if it were to catch on in other departments.

He has agreed that he will not recruit staff to the Trim office until all the engineers and architects who do not want to leave Dublin have been absorbed into other civil-service posts. As this could take years, the whole decentralisation programe in the OPW could be put on ice, with a largely vacant, though brand new HQ in Trim echoing to the sound of ISDN lines humming, awaiting input from staff ensconced at home in Dublin. Parlon's main problem is that there are simply not enough vacancies in Dublin to absorb the 100 OPW professional staff who want to remain in the capital. Under Parlon's promise, therefore, he will not be able to staff the decentralised OPW headquarters in Trim with professional workers. This puts the whole move in serious doubt.

Though Parlon told Impact that his commitment applies to the OPW move to Trim only, the union, which represents all professional staff in the public service, is now pushing for the same commitment in other departments with specialist staff - such as the prison service, environment, valuation office – which are due to move shortly.

hmmm

Victor

Hmmmm ISDN, last decade's technology.

I presume he is saying ISDN, because he knows the state of broadband implementation here.

TempestSabre

Originally Posted by sunday turbine - can someone post a link to that.

NewDubliner

This gem from the Irish Examiner, last Wednesday may have been overlooked. I've highlighted some telling points indicating that the move to the already prosperous town of Killarney (which just happens to be in his constituency) fails to achieve the principal objective of moving people out of Dublin and of doing so at no net extra cost to the taxpayer.

Fortunately for the Minister, the civil service commission is prepared to promote 5 extra staff to the €100,000 PO grade level so as to ensure that the office has its compliment of senior managers.

From The Examiner Wed, 30 Aug 2006 by Anne Lucey

Forty-three early-mover officials from the Department of Arts Sport and Tourism will take up positions in temporary accommodation at a call-centre on the Ring of Kerry near Killarney next week, Minister John O'Donoghue has announced.

It is one of more than 20 temporary centres nationally, which the OPW has been asked to acquire to accommodate civil servants wishing to move before the purpose built buildings for their departments are in place, a spokesman for the OPW revealed yesterday.

These premises, sought on a short-term lease with favourable terms and conditions, are selected by the OPW through agencies. This work is being done in tandem with the main decentralisation programme. Already 250 staff are working in two temporary centres in Portlaoise for the Department of Agriculture. The "advance group" from seven units of the Department of Arts, Sport and Tourism which includes civil servants from the provinces as well as from other Dublin based departments are to be located at the former Rosenbluth offices at Fossa some seven kilometres from their eventual purpose built headquarters in the town centre which is scheduled to open in early 2008.

Many of the early movers had chosen to move to Killarney for "an improved lifestyle with shorter commuting times, a beautiful environment and better value in the housing market," Mr O'Donoghue revealed.

All the staff including those from the provinces had travelled to Dublin for several weeks training before their re-location.

Following "a bedding-down period" further units of the department would be transferred, the minister said.

The OPW has selected the contractor for the new offices in a former car-park and garage site at New Road and building is to start in the coming months. In total some 130 civil servants are to move with the decentralisation of the complete department to the tourist town.

Enough civil servants had applied to fill all grades except that of principal officer where there was still a shortfall of five. These would be filled by promoting from the interdepartmental panel and internal competition.

Earlier this year, it emerged that up to half those civil servants applying to be relocated to Killarney were based outside Dublin.

pete

TempestSabre wrote:

Originally Posted by sunday turbine - can someone post a link to that.

link

registration required

TempestSabre

pete wrote:

link

registration required

Tks

Hotblack Desiato

NewDubliner wrote:

Irish Examiner wrote:

All the staff including those from the provinces had travelled to Dublin for several weeks training before their re-location.

And thanks to the wonders of decentralisation, Dublin based staff no longer suffer the inconvenience and expense of going to Lansdowne House for training, they simply go to Tullamore instead... :rolleyes:

The ultimate cost of mileage, subsistence etc. as a result of this move is going to dwarf the decentralisation retraining costs, it's an ongoing needless expense.

holly_johnson

ninja900 wrote:

And thanks to the wonders of decentralisation, Dublin based staff no longer suffer the inconvenience and expense of going to Lansdowne House for training, they simply go to Tullamore instead... :rolleyes:

The ultimate cost of mileage, subsistence etc. as a result of this move is going to dwarf the decentralisation retraining costs, it's an ongoing needless expense.

I think that it's the other way around... the trainers that are now in Tullamore are going to be the ones getting the travel and sub to come back up to Lansdowne House to give the courses....

aonfocaleile

If that's the case it kinda defeats the purpose of them decentralising in the first place - they'll have to do loads of travel to various locations resulting in less "quality time" in their new communities rather than "shorter commuting times".

Mind you, who'd turn down that level of TnS:rolleyes:

And there was me planning a free mid-week break in Tullamore with the only catch being that I'd have to attend a course....looks like its back to the drawing board

Hotblack Desiato

Here we were told that all courses delivered by CMOD will be in Tullamore.

Whether the trainees travel, or the trainers travel, it's crazy moving those providing a service away from the location where most of the users of that service are.

holly_johnson

ninja900 wrote:

Here we were told that all courses delivered by CMOD will be in Tullamore.

Whether the trainees travel, or the trainers travel, it's crazy moving those providing a service away from the location where most of the users of that service are.

Well, plans are always open to change, I suppose, but I know that the training rooms in Lansdowne are vacant and won't be occupied by anyone else for the forseeable future to allow for training use. I could never see a situation where all training would be in Tullamore; what about the language training they do and the pre-retirement courses? Those people couldn't be expected to travel to Tullamore. Some training will be done in Tullamore for sure, but the majority will be either in Dublin or in centres around the country with the trainers lapping up the T&S.

TempestSabre

Well its never been about services or value for money is it. Simply votes and keeping people happy.

Firetrap

Exactly. It's all about getting bodies into shiny new offices all around the country. It doesn't matter what they were in a previous life. The locals won't worry about small details like T&S

Hotblack Desiato

holly_johnson wrote:

Well, plans are always open to change, I suppose, but I know that the training rooms in Lansdowne are vacant and won't be occupied by anyone else for the forseeable future to allow for training use.

Lansdowne House is to go up for sale. From Saturday's IT:

Irish Times wrote:

Windfall for State in south Dublin land sale

The Government is set to cash in for a third time on the property boom in Ballsbridge as it prepares to sell a prominent office building across from the Jury's Hotel complex in south Dublin.

Informed sources say the nine-storey Lansdowne House building, which the Government acquired for €29.8 million in 1999, is likely to come on the market early next year. The quarter-acre site includes the 6,503sq m (70,000sq ft) office block and 90 car parking spaces.

A syndicate of private investors, including the Odlum family and property developer David Maher and his family, made a handsome profit in 1999 when they sold the building to the State. They had acquired the property for €11.43 million just three years previously.

Lansdowne House will be of interest because of its proximity to the Jurys complex. The developer Seán Dunne of Mountbrook Homes spent €380 million last year buying the Jurys, Berkeley Court and Towers hotels.

He plans a high-end residential and retail zone for the area, akin to a "Knightsbridge of Dublin".

With Mr Dunne and other investors such as Ray Grehan and Jerry O'Reilly behind the massive rise in valuations in this part of Ballsbridge, the sale of Lansdowne House may provide a windfall for the Exchequer next year.

Department of Finance officials, who occupied 47 per cent of the office space, are vacating the building after the transfer in July of their unit to Tullamore, Co Offaly, under the decentralisation scheme. In anticipation of a sale, the Office of Public Works (OPW) does not plan to find replacement tenants for the space they occupied.

The remainder of the office block is occupied by officials in the Revenue service.

Plans to transfer them have not yet been formulated but the combination of the valuation spike, decentralisation and a Government commitment to sell off surplus assets means that a sale is inevitable.

Minister of State Tom Parlon, who is responsible for the OPW, has demonstrated a clear appetite for property sales in Ballsbridge.

The Government realised €171.5 million last year when it sold the former veterinary college building on Shelbourne Road to Mr Grehan. It got a further €35.9 million from the adjoining faculty building when it was sold last May to David Courtney and Jerry O'Reilly.

"Under Minister Parlon's Transforming State Assets programme and the decentralisation programme, redundant property can and will be disposed of," said the OPW's spokesman when asked about Lansdowne House.

Mr Dunne recently increased his portfolio in Ballsbridge with a deal to acquire the Hume House office block which adjoins the Jurys complex.

He secured ownership of the 7,432sq m building by way of a "swap" agreed with the Irish Life Irish Property Fund.

holly_johnson

I work in Lansdowne House and this is news to me!
Only 1 floor was vacated by the move to Tullamore. Finance still occupy three floors and Revenue occupy 4. I'm shocked by this... where are we going to be moved to??

Macy

holly_johnson wrote:

I'm shocked by this... where are we going to be moved to??

Like everyone who's not going with their jobs or to any other decentralised location (i.e. the majority of civil and public servants) this is the €2 billion question.

NewDubliner

From the 'Examiner', Oct 5th 2006. There's no mention of how many of the people who've agreed to 'move' actually lived or worked in Dublin in the first place:

Just 2,000 public servants to move by end of 2007

By Harry McGee, Political Editor
ONLY 2,000 of 10,600 public servants will have moved to decentralised posts by the end of 2007, the date the Government originally promised the programme would be completed.


The slow progress of the controversial scheme is revealed in the latest report of the Decentralisation Implementation Group (DIG), published yesterday.

The DIG said the programme’s implementation is “progressing satisfactorily” but problems included:

* staff who wish to remain in Dublin.

* difficulties in relocating IT divisions of large departments outside the capital.

* ongoing difficulties with State agencies.

In relation to State agencies, the report says that while progress was made by some, “there has been a marked lack of action in some other agencies”.

Some 30 agencies are due to relocate, involving 2,340 posts. While seven have been identified as early movers, opposition to the move within one of those agencies, FÁS, has been referred to the Labour Court.

The DIG also says it is aware that the Department of Transport is examining the transfer of Bus Éireann to Mitchelstown. It urges this be clarified as a matter of urgency but does not disclose if the original decision may now be reviewed.

The property programme is completed or well advanced in 34 of the 53 locations, and the DIG says departments and offices will have a presence in 29 locations within 18 months.

While 2,100 staff have been assigned, only 500 have moved so far.

The report says the targets set out in June 2005 that 6,800 staff will be moved in the next three years is still on schedule, though it adds that some will happen later than originally projected.

Finance Minister Brian Cowen welcomed the report, calling it a success.

However, Labour’s Joan Burton said the Government had no reason to be upbeat, as 2,000 transfers by 2008 was a “far cry” from original proposals: “Only a government with a record as dismal as this could regard meeting 20% of the target a success.”

Victor

Finance Minister Brian Cowen welcomed the report, calling it a success.

A bit like the motorway programme, of which they have about 52% of what they expected complete.

mrhappy42

Office buildings are sold all the time in the corporate world. I dont know how many times myself or people I know in the private sector have moved. Never got a cent.

The idea that goverment jobs are somehow different from other jobs is coming to an end. Its irrelevent if 2000 or 10000 moved its the fact that goverments are doing it.

The fact that they are moving into the renting space instead of owning expensive real estate all shows that goverments are moving into the ideas of private companies.

Imagine 20 years from now, all this discussion will be over, accepted and not just decentralised but outsourced.

TempestSabre

mrhappy42 wrote:

....

Imagine 20 years from now, all this discussion will be over, accepted and not just decentralised but outsourced.

I agree outsourced and less cost efficient

eigrod

mrhappy42 wrote:

Imagine 20 years from now, all this discussion will be over, accepted and not just decentralised but outsourced.

Imagine 20 years from now a tribunal to discuss the massive waste of taxpayer's money on this scheme.

pete

mrhappy42 wrote:

I dont know how many times myself or people I know in the private sector have moved. Never got a cent.

And this is relevant to a discussion on decentralisation how? What are you implying?

The idea that goverment jobs are somehow different from other jobs is coming to an end. Its irrelevent if 2000 or 10000 moved its the fact that goverments are doing it.

The fact that they are moving into the renting space instead of owning expensive real estate

Yes, i'm sure the rent they have to pay on all those properties they own really does add up.

all shows that goverments are moving into the ideas of private companies.

Which in turn shows you haven't read very much of this thread. (see: cost-benefit analysis & lack thereof)

Imagine 20 years from now, all this discussion will be over, accepted and not just decentralised but outsourced.

Riiight, because outsourcing is a cure-all that always - always! - saves money.

The_Conductor

Talking about outsourcing- I'm just back from 3 weeks in India, where the biggest worries they have at the moment are the manner that a lot of major US and EU companies are pulling their outsourced customer and IT support from India because of poor service levels, availability and most importantly reliability. There are also yet more people being arrested for the sale of personal information (the bank in question was not named on commercial sensetivity grounds).

Outsourcing is not the panancea it was once held up to be.

Macy

I see yet again this report gives no timescale or breakdown for the semi states. Blather about it not going well without giving the actual figures, although it did at least list them :rolleyes: