Good Idea/ Bad Idea Classic Landrover Series 2/3

fits · 14-11-2006 7:47pm #1

I keep a couple of neddies and will at some stage need a half decent/capable vehicle for towing. The thoughts of paying for tax, insurance and fuel for something thats absolutely no fun and immediately lumps me in with the Chelsea tractor set does not appeal so....

I had a brainwave... Why not get an old landy??? 78 euro tax, 300 euro insurance, it looks cool, and I can afford to keep another car for every day use. The OH is a bit of a grease monkey anyway (we've a few old VWs) so...
Is this a good idea? Will the lack of power steering be a major issue when towing? And would it break down very often leaving me and neddies stranded in inconvenient spots???

Any thoughts?

junkyard · 14-11-2006 10:06pm

As long as you've got a good engine/gearbox/back axel and a good chassis (preferably a galvanised one, as they're well known for chassis rot) you should O.K. There are loads of modifications to upgrade it and parts aren't a problem either.

PaulK_CCI · 14-11-2006 11:04pm

If you're worried about 'creature comforts' in an old Landy, why not consider an old Range Rover. They are so much more pleasurable and comfortable to drive, (there is simply no comparison with a Land Rover S2/3 / Defender), and they can be picked up reasonable cheap too.
Another option would be, to consider sticking a modern shell on top of an old Land Rover chassis. You would see this done mostly with Range Rovers, where you can take the chassis of an old 71-76 Range Rover, stick the bodyshell on of a Luxurious and well equiped 90-94 Range Rover, swap the engine and enjoy some genuinely cheap motoring. Here in Holland they would then also convert them to Gas (LPG) and with just 45 cents a litre, bob's your uncle.

Eric318 · 15-11-2006 7:10pm

fits wrote:

Will the lack of power steering be a major issue when towing? And would it break down very often leaving me and neddies stranded in inconvenient spots???

Any thoughts?

The lack of POWER may be an issue, unless you get a 6cyl...

In my experience Landies are reliable they just need to be properly sorted and maintained from time to time.

Errh... what is a neddie?

AsphaltRisin' · 15-11-2006 7:21pm

The older landrovers, although tough, have a distinct drawback compared to more modern 4x4s, they're very slow and really aren't very powerful at all. they usually come with either a 2.2 petrol or 2.25 diesel if i'm not mistaken, and while they'll tow a double horsebox along grand as long as the running gear is in good order, they'll only manage around 35-40mph comfortably, with the petrol 4 cylinder being not exactly very torquey either. still, they're very tough and simple. and would be fine for you if you dont mind goin slowly.
You could alway try find one with a more modern engine fitted or else get one of the rare 6 cylinder versions.
One particularly good magazine for these 4x4s is Landrover monthly, which has good specialis advice, buying guides and a good classifieds section as well as ads for good specialis suppliers, but it a uk mag.

rrv8 · 15-11-2006 10:44pm

Will the lack of power steering be a major issue when towing?

Lack of power steering is not the bigger issue with towing using a S2 or S3 landy , if you are only going forwards down a straight road and dont want to stop at the end
They are a nightmare to tow with , lack of brakes , lack of power , lack of power steering for reversing , if its a leafer they wander and wallow
But are a brilliant motor otherwise to play in - get it dirty
A long wheelbase 6 or 8 cylinder on a rangy chassis is the best option if you want a series landy
They are as reliable as any other motor if they are looked after
or better still a classic Range Rover
I tow with a 74 Range Rover V8 , just as cheap as a landy to run when towing , with trailer and another range rover on it you can forget that the trailer is even there
pic?id=8280wLiCYnx-BUWrlgnGgbLEd8laVIW4w9GCv4xQp5Fd3Ig=&size=l

pic?id=8280wLiCYnx-BUWrlgnGgbLEd8laVIW4w9GCv4xQp5Fd3Ig=&size=l

Eric318 · 16-11-2006 2:16pm

I used to find that my SIII 1979 LWB 4cyl Petrol 109" offered a driving experience quite similar to my 1952 Citroën Traction (Light 15). Same acceleration and top speed (and the Citroën had 3 speeds only when the LR had an overdrive), slightly worse steering, similar or worse brake power and much worse road handling of course.

The Range Rover seems a much better option...

cormac_byrne · 16-11-2006 11:13pm

I've got a Series II upgraded with a 2.5 diesel engine & servo brakes. The lack of power steering is only noticeable when trying to park or do a 3 point turn. I expect it would tow a double horsebox competently, but as already mentioned, it would be slow, particularly going uphill. If you don't have a need for speed and are prepared to accept the compromises that classic motoring means then go for it.

Just be sure to get one with a solid chassis (don't be afraid to hit it with a big spanner to test for weak spots)

Reading Idid before buying mine

http://members.ozemail.com.au/~mikeleys/2buy.html
http://www.landrovernet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28015
http://www.landrovernet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28016
http://www.landrovernet.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28017

http://www.series2club.co.uk/gear_levers.htm

and if you want power steerin (about €1,000)
http://www.chrisperfect.com/products/brakes-steering_power_steering_kit.html

I've just joined the Club Land Rover Ireland http://www.clri.net
There's a very active forum on their site, you could ask there about towing

JohnBoy · 20-11-2006 7:32pm

The ultimate is as paulk-cci has suggested, and not that uncommon.

classic chassis with everything else off a 90-96 model.

i have a 92 rangey myself and recently passed up on a 76 of this nature, kicking myself ever since, they do come up for sale from time to time.

Blue850 · 21-11-2006 9:39am

What about a Mercedes G-series?

JohnBoy · 21-11-2006 2:48pm

impressive tanks, don't know when they were introduced so not sure on classic status, but apart from being better built pretty much anything you say about a utility landy is gonna hold true for a g-wagen, they're a milliaty/utility truck at the end of the day.

the real winner on the land rovers is the massive abundance of cheap parts for em, you can practically build a brand new series 3 land rover if you wanted.

cormac_byrne · 21-11-2006 3:04pm

JohnBoy wrote:

you can practically build a brand new series 3 land rover if you wanted.

There's nothing to stop you building a series Landrover, all the bits are available, including galvanized chassis'

You would need a donor vehicle for the chassis number, it's perfectly legal (in the UK anyway) to transfer an old chassis number onto a new one. As long as it's a like for like swop. i.e. it's a replica of a series chassis that you're using.

After that you can add original or upgraded parts as you see fit.

For VRT / NCT / Tax / Insurance purposes the car will be dated as per the original chassis.

If you've changed anything from original spec you may have to tell the insurance co. that the car has been modified.

Clare gunner · 21-11-2006 8:46pm

JohnBoy wrote:

impressive tanks, don't know when they were introduced so not sure on classic status, but apart from being better built pretty much anything you say about a utility landy is gonna hold true for a g-wagen, they're a milliaty/utility truck at the end of the day.

the real winner on the land rovers is the massive abundance of cheap parts for em, you can practically build a brand new series 3 land rover if you wanted.

No comparison between a Land Rover or Range Rover and a G wagon.
The G wagon ,while it's parts might be more,will stay fixed once done properly for the rest of the life of the G wagon.The LR and RR will stay fixed about 25k before the same probs show up again. 2.8 petrol or 3 litre diesel,will pull and cruise all day up in the 60 mph mark.And you will not get out deaf,and suffering from Landy arse from crap seats.The early Gs should becoming into classic time soon as they first appeared in 1979.

PaulK_CCI · 22-11-2006 12:00am

Clare gunner wrote:

No comparison between a Land Rover or Range Rover and a G wagon.
The G wagon ,while it's parts might be more,will stay fixed once done properly for the rest of the life of the G wagon.The LR and RR will stay fixed about 25k before the same probs show up again. 2.8 petrol or 3 litre diesel,will pull and cruise all day up in the 60 mph mark.And you will not get out deaf,and suffering from Landy arse from crap seats.The early Gs should becoming into classic time soon as they first appeared in 1979.

I would aggree with most of this, but don't exaggerate the overall 'reliability', as the G-wagons were in fact born as a "Puch (Steyr)" and are built and manufactured in Austria and not by Mercedes in Germany. Ofcourse the engines are impeccable compared to the high maintenance Land Rover products, but the very early Mercedes/Puch G-wagons, were pretty spartan and bare, and only started to become luxurious vehicles during the early nineties, when Range Rovers were already doing this since the mid eighties...

However, the crucial point is, that you will still be paying VRT and Tax for the next three years before they become taxfree.

Blue850 · 22-11-2006 10:00am

Does it have to be a 4x4? how about an old 70s Merc 300D or 280E

fits · 22-11-2006 2:31pm

Thanks for all the detailed and informative replies. I will be buying this vehicle for towing only. I really dont care about top speed or creature comforts, however towing capability is really important. I know people tend to tow with pretty much anything in this country, but I would prefer to stay as safe as possible. I live in a very hilly area with bad roads so I'll need a lot of power.

The general rule in Britain seems to be that total laden weight of the trailer =85% of the towing vehicle weight. The weight of the horsebox with two animals in it would be about 2000kg (generally I would only be towing one horse so am a little flexible on this). I would prefer a long wheel base and enough power to keep me out of trouble. The old Range Rover actually sounds like the best option of the ones mentioned above, even though I love the G wagens. Are the Range Rovers as cheap to maintain as the Landrovers?

fits · 22-11-2006 2:33pm

Blue850 wrote:

Does it have to be a 4x4? how about an old 70s Merc 300D or 280E

I suppose they would be an option too as long as they had a very high towing capacity. I think I would prefer a 4X4 after skidding sideways on leaves up a steep hill yesterday.

Clare gunner · 22-11-2006 9:07pm

PaulK_CCI wrote:

I would aggree with most of this, but don't exaggerate the overall 'reliability', as the G-wagons were in fact born as a "Puch (Steyr)" and are built and manufactured in Austria and not by Mercedes in Germany. Ofcourse the engines are impeccable compared to the high maintenance Land Rover products, but the very early Mercedes/Puch G-wagons, were pretty spartan and bare, and only started to become luxurious vehicles during the early nineties, when Range Rovers were already doing this since the mid eighties...

However, the crucial point is, that you will still be paying VRT and Tax for the next three years before they become taxfre

Err you only pay VRT once off.
Even in its most primitive form in 1979 the G would pee over anything Landrover could produce in comfort and ride.It was coil suspension before LR ever thought of introducing it in the LR 110.By 1984 they were on par with with Merc saloons without the fancy wood dashes.Range Rover only got their act together properly with the Vouge in the late 80s.Merc was already there.
But if you want sheeer brutal pulling power only.I would suggest a big ol Yank car or 4x4.anything with 4litres will do any pulling here.

fits · 22-11-2006 9:32pm

Yes but for a 1979 G Wagen, I would still have to pay 1000 euro tax and probably the same in insurance as would have to start a new policy. This defeats the whole purpose! I'd really need a thirty year old vehicle...

JohnBoy · 23-11-2006 1:58pm

Clare gunner wrote:

Err you only pay VRT once off.
Even in its most primitive form in 1979 the G would pee over anything Landrover could produce in comfort and ride.It was coil suspension before LR ever thought of introducing it in the LR 110.By 1984 they were on par with with Merc saloons without the fancy wood dashes.Range Rover only got their act together properly with the Vouge in the late 80s.Merc was already there.
But if you want sheeer brutal pulling power only.I would suggest a big ol Yank car or 4x4.anything with 4litres will do any pulling here.

for pulling horseboxes you're gonna need a 4x4 really, if only for the wet gateways to fields and yards, not something you need very often but it's a dose when you don't have it.

not meaning to get into a pissing match but the range rover had coils all round since 71

as for reliability as said, no real contest there.

Clare gunner · 23-11-2006 10:05pm

fits wrote:

Yes but for a 1979 G Wagen, I would still have to pay 1000 euro tax and probably the same in insurance as would have to start a new policy. This defeats the whole purpose! I'd really need a thirty year old vehicle...

Errr No! If you got a pre 1987[?] reg.You can have it and it proably was regd as a commerical vechicle,anyway.So it can have the glass and seats without the huge private car tax.Plus that age and engine size 2.300 cc] you are well under the thousand euro mark.Commerical insurance is appx 500 euros.
It is 1,400 appx for a 4 litre private car.So appx half that for a 2.3 litre.

Yeah,the RR did,but the LAND rover didnt have coils until the 19805.
Also ASFIK there is a eU directive that states anything double axle must be either towed by 4x4 or be in a van truck body type vechicle.

fits · 23-11-2006 10:53pm

Clare gunner wrote:

Errr No! If you got a pre 1987[?] reg.You can have it and it proably was regd as a commerical vechicle,anyway.So it can have the glass and seats without the huge private car tax.Plus that age and engine size 2.300 cc] you are well under the thousand euro mark.Commerical insurance is appx 500 euros.
It is 1,400 appx for a 4 litre private car.So appx half that for a 2.3 litre.

Well you learn something new every day! Its still that bit more expensive than classic though. That pre '87 would still add up to at least a grand. Classic insurance is about 300 euro... and tax only 78. Its definitely another option though

cormac_byrne · 23-11-2006 11:30pm

Classic Landie Insurance more like €200 from Irish Vintage Society,
Carole Nash the same (but vehicle must be unmodified)

N.B. check the smallprint to be sure towing is covered.

VRT = €50 euro (anything over 30 years)

Classic road tax = €42 (not €78)

And don't forget if you insure a vehicle as a commercial it must pass an annual DOE test. (Classics are NCT exempt)

PaulK_CCI · 24-11-2006 12:06am

Clare gunner, don't worry. I am not slating the G-wagon at all, it's just that I wanted to make the point that the very early models do rust badly too, and can sometimes be totally worn and driven to bits.... so it's a case of watching out not to get your hands on a basket case, as with any car, not all G-wagons are in good shape! Furthermore, the chances of finding a good early RHD G-wagon is not going to be easy. They're already hard to find in LHD form! Whereas, there's loads of early RHD Range Rover's about...

There's currently a RHD from 73 for sale here in Holland. In good nick, not concours ofcourse, but in very nice condition and perfectly useable: well above the average rubbish that has seen every corner of the fields down in Co. Offaly so to speak. It's vrt exempt, 44 euro;s tax, no nct, cheap insurance... around 6k to get this in Ireland and on Irish plates, everything looked after, a lot cheaper if you come over and get it yourself...

cormac_byrne · 24-11-2006 12:49am

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320050894821

Blue850 · 24-11-2006 11:50am

On the buy and sell website today

Vintage Range Rover 1973. Munster Clare
Near mint cond, no rust, perkins turbo, cheap tax, low insurance, big power. appreciating classic, 3,950. 087-9180257

PaulK_CCI · 24-11-2006 1:37pm

"near mint" < > "perkins turbo"

????

???

I don't think I would ever classify a car as "near mint" if it had a completely different agricultural lump of a Diesel engine fitted.... Those Perkins diesel engine would be more suited to the old Land Rovers, as even though they are powerful, there's not a lot of go in them, and they are very (!!) noisy. But if the car is genuinely very clean and tidy and rustfree, it's certainly not a bad price. You can always stick another engine in.

Clare gunner · 24-11-2006 1:45pm

PaulK_CCI wrote:

Clare gunner, don't worry. I am not slating the G-wagon at all, it's just that I wanted to make the point that the very early models do rust badly too, and can sometimes be totally worn and driven to bits....

I know you are not slating the G ,and as you say Cevat Emptor.BUT for rust,unless it was in salty conditions or totally abused.IE driven without care and attention,their longevity will out do LR and RR.Last one I had seen dead was because of cathrosphic fnt axle bearing failure and gear box failure.Due to the fools disconnecting the front Drive shaft,which powers the gearbox oil pump,and not driving it in high four.And they did this for six months.
Plus I will say the most towed or lifted on flatbeds I see are all of the LR or RR badge.

so it's a case of watching out not to get your hands on a basket case, as with any car, not all G-wagons are in good shape! Furthermore, the chances of finding a good early RHD G-wagon is not going to be easy. They're already hard to find in LHD form! Whereas, there's loads of early RHD Range Rover's about...

I know where there is three of them within a hous drive of me inc mine for sale.;) I'll sell mine for 3.3K ono 1984,280GE with a 5cyl merc diesel 5 door.Does need some tlc on body work,due to rust,but not very visible.Everyday driver.Dont see many RR of that age anymore on the road.

There's currently a RHD from 73 for sale here in Holland. In good nick, not concours ofcourse, but in very nice condition and perfectly useable: well above the average rubbish that has seen every corner of the fields down in Co. Offaly so to speak. It's vrt exempt, 44 euro;s tax, no nct, cheap insurance... around 6k to get this in Ireland and on Irish plates, everything looked after, a lot cheaper if you come over and get it yourself...

Oh memories of the 2 door RR:D I had two of them in my lifetime.Gear boxes that howled like beaten dogs.HUGE doors that weighed a ton and needed three men to hang properly[if ever].
Ergonomics?Pish and twaddle,Sir!!! Of course your passenger must be informed of the oil temp and time!! While you must know the voltage and oil pressure.Cornering,you were hanging out of those huge doors on the steering wheel. With a petrol V8 they had power,but with the many abortions of diesels in them in the 80s they were a god awful embarrassment. Plus they ATE money for parts[if you could get them in Ireland].
Been there,seen it ,done it,bought the T shirt. Never again.:D

Like that one that Blue 850 has posted,a Perkins.Dont be in any rush anywhere with that.It will get you there all right.But if you can survive the embarrasment of being over taken by folks on racing bikes or John Deere tractors pulling a double heavy load...well.:rolleyes: Cheeky price INMHO too.

JohnBoy · 27-11-2006 11:41am

Clare gunner wrote:

Also ASFIK there is a eU directive that states anything double axle must be either towed by 4x4 or be in a van truck body type vechicle.

I've heard this mentioned by people before but have never seen anything official ever refer to it. nor can i see any reason why it would be the case.

just because a trailer has 4 wheels it must be pulled by a big vehilce?

surely a 4 wheel braked trailer is better for a smaller vehicle to pull than a 2 wheel braked one, or even a 2 wheel un-braked trailer.

afaik the only reg you need to be concerned with is that the trailer you are towing weighs less laden than the manufacturer's max towing weight for the vehicle in question.

also someone elsewhere in the thread suggested that any yank of reasonable engine size would suit towing a horsebox, this is true up to a point. it's not about what you can pull, it's about what you can stop that counts.

I've pulled 1500 kg behind a 2wd quad bike on a 14 foot twin axle trailer, doesn't mean i could stop it in a hurry

Clare gunner · 29-11-2006 9:45pm

JohnBoy wrote:

I've heard this mentioned by people before but have never seen anything official ever refer to it. nor can i see any reason why it would be the case.

just because a trailer has 4 wheels it must be pulled by a big vehilce?

surely a 4 wheel braked trailer is better for a smaller vehicle to pull than a 2 wheel braked one, or even a 2 wheel un-braked trailer.

afaik the only reg you need to be concerned with is that the trailer you are towing weighs less laden than the manufacturer's max towing weight for the vehicle in question.

also someone elsewhere in the thread suggested that any yank of reasonable engine size would suit towing a horsebox, this is true up to a point. it's not about what you can pull, it's about what you can stop that counts.

I've pulled 1500 kg behind a 2wd quad bike on a 14 foot twin axle trailer, doesn't mean i could stop it in a hurry

Guilty on the Yank /horsebox thing.BUT have you seen what the Yanks call a horsebox???:eek: :eek: We are talking about somthing that we would classify as a artic trailer.
dunno about this thing with the EU.It got alot of airtme in Germany last year.Maybe our over lords in Brussels finally got sense and dropped it?

fits · 05-12-2006 2:10pm

Jeremy Clarkson did an article on the classic Landy in Sunday Times In Gear supplement this week. Seemingly his wife has one to tow horseboxes as well. He had the same complaints as were mentioned in this thread, and only found it tolerable after he'd put in a 3.9 V8 engine.

Good Idea/ Bad Idea Classic Landrover Series 2/3

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