Warning: A bad dealer can cost you your stack!

Ste05 wrote:

I have a question, just say I fold a hand/ concede at showdown and I throw it directly into the muck, is the dealer ever allowed to take it out of the muck and expose it. Just say someone requests to see what I had but my hand is actually in the muck.

I have seen cards taken out of the muck when players/the dealer felt they all knew which were the correct cards, and I've also seen it be declared dead and not retrived.


Also in a cash game in a Grosvenor Casino, Bolton, cash game, a player no longer in the pot insisted that the a players cards be turned over, the action on the river went, check, call, the called player declared his hand, the other guy folded, and another player called the floor insisting it was his right to see the cards of the player who had called the bet on the end, which in that casino, and some others, it is.

I would never ever ask to see the cards of someone who check-called and had the losing hand.

5starpool wrote:

Rubbish

It's not rubbish, because his bet was called on the river, and it is the right of any player to see what cards he had, it would be a different story if he had called a bet.

5starpool wrote:

You sound like an awful stickler for detail, and that type of pedantry is not that often done in a pleasant way.

I know what you are saying and technically you might be right, but at no point, unless there is suspicion of collusion, should a hand be retrieved from the muck, even by a dealer.

I don't agree that I'm a stickler for detail, it is a very basic rule, also, I never asked for the hand to be retrived from the muck, I just wanted the dealer to let the player know that he shouldn't drop his hand in the muck, when his bet is called.

Also, do you not think the dealer ignoring me when I asked for the floor was out of order? I only asked for the floor because the dealer did not explain the rules either to the player, or to me if he felt I was incorrect.


The dealer is there to run the game, explaining and making rulings that he is confident about are his job, and calling the floor if he is condfident of the rule.



Isn't that a fair expectation?


You raise a good point 5Starpool, the possibility of collusion, however remote, is part of the reason the player shouldn't drop his hand directly into the muck after been called on the river.

DeVore wrote:

I am now waiting my turn and insisting that my opponents show in order after being repeatedly slowrolled and denied info.

DeV.

Sounds more like it is you who is slowrolling here DEV

Again i think you need to put into perspective if you have rivered or improved late you should state your hand and allow opponent to fold
If you have called what you believe is a bluff then i can understand wanting to see the cards

lenny_leonard wrote:

If it's checked around, show-down is technically in order from seat 1 around the table

Seat 1...not from the button?? (Not that it matters too much.)

Below is my view on this matter, which may or may not be en-par with the general concensus:

In a showdown any player, even a player not in the hand, can ask to see a folded hand. Its up to the dealer to move folded hands into the muck pile. When a player wants to know a hand (s)he must be fast to ask the dealer, because once in the muck pile its unretrievable (unless there is a suspicion of cheating?)

Upon showdown, when I throw my hand face-up on the felt, the cards are over the line. This is irrelevant since the line only applies to chips. If they happen to land face-down by accident, even with the odd rule "face-down over the line is a dead hand", the player should be able to 'correct' this by flipping them over. It would be against the spirit of the game to say "your mistake, nice nuts but I'll take the pot". I can see angle-shooting all over the place if this was the interpretation of such rule.

In given example what happened was in between the two scenarios. His intentions to fold are irrelevant since upon showdown there is no action left except showing hands and cards speak. The same applies to calling out your hand. Its irrelevant what you say, the cards must say it instead. Its very borderline, but if the player flips the face-down cards face-up before the dealer can move them into the muck, they should be live. Even with the given rule, since its up to the dealer to apply that rule correctly. In other words, a folded hand isn't dead until it hits the muck.

So in my view, the pot was rewarded to the correct person depending on the interpretation/intent of the rule "face down over the line is a dead hand". If a player isn't allowed to flip over his hand that landed face-down the house gets the pot. However, such a rule would sux badly. If the rule is that a hand face-down over the line is regarded as a fold by the player, then the strait flush gets the pot. This is because the player corrected his action in time. Maybe someone can ask for clarification on this rule and post the answer here?

In any case, the other player should have waited until the dealer took the dead hand and mucked it. Then there would be no issue at all.

jacQues

lenny_leonard wrote:

I'd consider it to be clock-wise from seat 1, as that's the direction the action before show-down would have went. So if player 1 (say) checks, then player 2, etc is effectively 'calling' the check (to use an old fashioned phrase).

That is exactly why I would think from the button (not seat 1, though occasionally they would be the same person) makes more sense!

(When saying "from the button" I mean SB shows first, obviously, not the button itself.)

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LuckyLloyd wrote:

It seems to me that there is a clear division in this thread between people who would like every single technical rule (house rule or not) applied for every single hand; and then there are those who want the game to move along and be played in a fair and spirited fashion and believe that when there is a major disagreement over a rule / way to proceed - the floor can be called and common sense applied.

i wouldnt say its as cut and fast as this, its more that some peopel apply different weights to certain rules, be it, thats the way they learned them, or otherwise, im sure everyone in the thread wants to see the game move alond and played in a spirited fashion tbf. p.s. jackpot tonight?

cardshark202 wrote:

This thread sucks

You suck:p

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