Warning: A bad dealer can cost you your stack!

bops

I was playing 1/2 PLHE in the Macau last week after bubbling in the 200 F/O (33rd I think!) and the following occurred:

A large pot (600+) had ended up at showdown: P1 (a good player and a nice fella) had rivered the Jd to fill a house, he had reraised the river and received a reluctant call.

He shows the house.

P2 – a young local aggressive (in all ways) chap slams his cards face down over the line and starts ranting that he had flopped the straight with T8

The dealer pushes the pot to P1

P2 turns over his cards to show his unlucky straight.

Somebody points out that he has a straight flush!! (Jd the culprit on the river)

The dealer takes the chips back from P1 and pushes them over to P2!!!! – who grumbles an apology.

In defense to P1, he was preoccupied with his win and didn’t notice the muck/unmuck…

I brought it to the attention of P1 (quietly – I was unsure if it is my place…) and by the time the argument broke out the dealer had dealt the next hand.

We got the correct ruling from Ken, a few hands later…a few hands too late...

The one time you drop your guard – you would hope for the dealer to be on the ball.



(PS every other dealer I’ve ever met in the Macau has been top class – maybe just a once off – maybe I’m blaming the wrong guy??)

Lafortezza

Cards speak, but it depends where P2's cards went when he threw them down. Did they touch the muck at all? Or did they just fall over the betting line and were still seperate from the pot and other mucked cards?

bops

they were face down beyond the betting line - 100% mucked by Macau rules - see Bandana boy's post made a few mins ago

Lafortezza

bops wrote:

they were face down beyond the betting line - 100% mucked by Macau rules - see Bandana boy's post made a few mins ago

I thought you said he turned over the cards to show the straight and then someone pointed out the straight flush?

kinaldo

Brilliant thread title. Who knew that dealers, especially bad ones, can make mistakes?

bops

lafortezza wrote:

I thought you said he turned over the cards to show the straight and then someone pointed out the straight flush?

...I did say that...after he had initially mucked them

bohsman

Most other casinos in Ireland as long as the cards havent hit the muck they are live. When do the cards get called dead? Half way across the line? If the dealer hasnt dealt them fully behind the line how long does the player have to retrieve them before they are called dead?

Lafortezza

bops wrote:

...I did say that...after he had initially mucked them

If the Macau rules say that as soon as cards are thrown over the betting line they are dead then the hand is dead, but it should be that cards speak so if his hand was easily identifiable and seperate from the muck, then cards speak, his hand is live and the straight flush takes the pot in my opinion.

bops

bohsman wrote:

Most other casinos in Ireland as long as the cards havent hit the muck they are live. When do the cards get called dead? Half way across the line? If the dealer hasnt dealt them fully behind the line how long does the player have to retrieve them before they are called dead?

i hear you but it doesn't matter what the rules are in other casinos, he appeared to be a regular player...
dead when face down entirely across the line...

anyway it was an obvious fold/muck not a mistake/slip if that makes things clearer

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bops

LuckyLloyd wrote:

- Player two's cards, while aqcross the line, are clearly visible and recognisible as his holding. People realise that he was holding the winning hand

clearly face down when money was pushed to P1

is my explanation that awful??

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

bops

LuckyLloyd wrote:

House rules should never be absolute gospel IMO. Common sense and the spirit of the game prevailing are always positive outcomes. In this case, Player two failing to get the money would have been the real shocker.

Rules are rules!! - breaking/bending rules only leads to trouble...

P2 should not have called the reraise OTR with his holding (a normal straight he thought) in the first place with 2 pairs on the board!!

With regard to the spirit of the game - P2 was an idiot not to realise his true holding and didn't deserve to win the pot imo

bops

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I can't stand people getting hung up on procedures and technicallities.

strangly me too!! - i suppose you had to be there! - put yourself in P1's shoes - ok the best hand won etc - but it was very cruel how it came about - that's all i'm saying i suppose

bohsman

bops wrote:

i hear you but it doesn't matter what the rules are in other casinos, he appeared to be a regular player...
dead when face down entirely across the line...

anyway it was an obvious fold/muck not a mistake/slip if that makes things clearer

I agree with Lloyd, its not only against the spirit of the game to try to get the pot awarded to the house but pure cheating. Its similar to people trying to get a cheap card by trying to call a stringbet.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

kakak1

I have to agree with Lucky, the spirit of the game must be upheld despite the fact money is involved.

I was in the Macau when this happened and in fact gave p2 a lift home so got his version of events. Obviously he was disappointed to have lost the pot and felt if he had pushed it he could possibly have been awarded the pot.

In most casinos cards are not mucked unless they hit the other mucked cards which clearly did not happen here.

Mellor

The straight flush wins it. It's unlucky to the house, but the next hand hadn't started and the cards were separate from the muck. If either of those things occured then the straight flush is dead.

cooker3

I am with Lloyd here, I think the spirit of the game is more important then technicalities of the rules, it was clear that Player 1 had the winning hand and if it is clear he has won hand then pot should be his.

Mr. Flibble

It seems the only mistake the dealer made was not to slide P2's face down cards into the rest of the discards before he awarded the pot to P1.

bops

ye guys really are a funny lot...

i blab on about going with my gut instincts and ignoring massive -EV factors and ye all belittle my agrument for going against what is "theoritically" correct...

...then I tell you a story about a guy who won a hand by the breaching of a significant rule in the cardroom and ye all belittle the fact of the matterand fart on about the spirit of the game...

I have no problem with anybody disagreeing with me - none whatsoever - i'd disagree with me alot too!! - but I really don't understand your logic here...

I'll write the story in a less interesting fashion:

I was at a card game
There was a big pot
One guy mucked his hand
The other guy was given the pot
The 1st guy unmucked his cards to show everybody what he had
His was informed that his hand was better
Now he was awarded the pot

not much of a story - but thats the facts!!

Just remember to embrace the spirit of the game, but never ever ever play KJ in early/mid position - that just wouldn't be right

Mr. Flibble

I wasn't trying to be funny or smart. I haven't read the other replies in great detail, but it seems the dealer forgot to either muck the hand properly or forgot to turn it over like they do in the Fitz (which I don't think they should do - you should be allowed muck your hand if you like) and check it. Once the mistake was spotted a reasonable solution was found. The TD, or whatever a cash game TD is called, should have been asked for by anyone with a problem before the next hand.

bohsman

Not sure who or why someone turned your hand over in the Fitz - there would be war if you did that to the wrong person. If someone is looking at their hand trying to figure out what they have and you look over their shoulder and see a winning hand keep your mouth shut.

The mistake is certainly that the dealer didnt muck the hand before awarding the pot. I know you say the hand is dead once the cards cross the line in the Macau but its a terrible rule, the standard rule these days appears to be that you can even retrieve cards from the muck if they are clearly identifiable. Does the Macau still allow underraising? Theyve some weird rules down there.

bops

sorry mr fibble - i wasn't having a go at you.
Your reply made perfect sense - Yes the dealer should have put the players cards in with the muck before awarding the pot
- hence the title of the thread

bohsman - a dealer checking opponents hands to see if they may have won!! does that really happen?? wow!!

and yes! i did see a couple of underraises going by without anybody complaining...dunno if it is a rule tho...

kincsem

Cards speak. The bet was called. A straight flush beats a full house.

If there is a house rule that says otherwise that sounds suspicious. Does that house rule only apply in favour of Macau regulars?

The supreme court ruling in this case is that a straight flush beats a full house. The local circuit court decision is overturned.

bohsman

bops wrote:

bohsman - a dealer checking opponents hands to see if they may have won!! does that really happen?? wow!!

and yes! i did see a couple of underraises going by without anybody complaining...dunno if it is a rule tho...

Mr Flibble claimed in the post above that this happens in the Fitz, I was questioning it, especially having worked in the Fitz for 2 years.

I nearly walked out of a tournament in the Macau once after I got the TD over (not Ken) who ruled that the underraise was fine, luckily I was still new to poker and hooked so rebought and went onto split it

bops

bohsman wrote:

Mr Flibble claimed in the post above that this happens in the Fitz, I was questioning it, especially having worked in the Fitz for 2 years.

Yep! I can't see that happenin...there would be murder!!

bohsman wrote:

I nearly walked out of a tournament in the Macau once after I got the TD over (not Ken) who ruled that the underraise was fine, luckily I was still new to poker and hooked so rebought and went onto split it

lol - you probably won playing real muck with a big tilty head on you! - fair play

kincsem

From HOME POKER TOURNEY site

DEAD HANDS
1. Your hand is declared dead if:

(a) You fold or announce that you are folding when facing a bet or a raise.

(b) You throw your hand away in a forward motion causing another player to act behind you (even if not facing a bet).

(c) In stud, when facing a bet, you pick your upcards off the table, turn your upcards facedown, or mix your upcards and downcards together.

(d) The hand does not contain the proper number of cards ………

(e) You act on a hand with a joker as a holecard in a game not using a joker.

(f) You have the clock on you when facing a bet or raise and exceed the specified time limit.

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. We will make an extra effort to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.

3. Cards thrown into another player’s hand are dead, whether they are faceup or facedown.


THE SHOWDOWN
1. To win any part of a pot, a player must show all of his cards faceup on the table, whether they were used in the final hand played or not.

2. Cards speak (cards read for themselves). The dealer assists in reading hands, but players are responsible for holding onto their cards until the winner is declared. Although verbal declarations as to the contents of a hand are not binding, deliberately miscalling a hand with the intent of causing another player to discard a winning hand is unethical and may result in forfeiture of the pot. (For more information on miscalling a hand see “Section 11 - Lowball,” Rule 15 and Rule 16.)


Irrelevant
…… bad dealer …..
…… large pot (600+) …..
….. young local aggressive …..
….. a good player and a nice fella ….

I'm namedropping here .... in the EPT €300 Greg Raymer had his cards half over the line. I mentioned that the dealer might consider them folded. Raymer said the line has no significance.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

phantom_lord

I saw something lke this happen, basically a guy threw in his hand, then realised the board had paired and he was ahead with tp against 2p. A ruling was called, it was ruled his hand wasn't folded as the cards hadn't hit the muck or the board, it was mentioned he might want to split the pot as a gesture which he did. There was no line on the table, if that makes any difference.

kakak1

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.


doesn't this answer the problem

bohsman

kakak1 wrote:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.


doesn't this answer the problem

No.

Because these are not the Macaus rules, they are rules taken off a random website.

5starpool

Cards should never be turned over by a dealer. A dealer should instruct people to turn over cards to claim a pot, and should say both cards (or all 4 if Omaha) if a person is trying to claim a pot using only 1 card, but should still not turn them over.

dougee19

to be honest i havent read all the posts, im a regular at the macau and lately ive become really pissed off with the lack of knowledge in the place. ive had words with Ken and ament playing in the cash games anymore because of this, the dealers in there dont enforce the rules and to be honest, everyone in there gets mixed up with the rules.
for example, they enforced a new rule since it became no limit, if a player has 49euro they cannot let other players give them 1euro to round them up. weird enough rule, but it is a rule. yet the dealers never enforce it, and the going in on small blind thing, it has taken them 4months to finally get that right. and the "no speech play" is nowhere near enforced. a total joke in there. there are a lot of other things in there that they constantly mess up on aswell
the reason why im not playing there anymore is because of an incident lately, i called for a ruling and i described the hand and the cardroom manager agreed with me, and so did the dealer and so did all bar 1 player, the guy i was complaining about. then this guy complains to ken and ken takes me aside and somehow tries to explain to me that he was in the right, after everyone agreed with me. i told him i saw the exact same thing happen A LOT in the place and he just said that i was wrong and i should appologise to the other guy.
i think ken is good at managing the place, but really should have someone that knows what they are doing, what they did to graham was a disgrace because he was the only one in there who would actually give you a straight answer instead of waffling on
speaking of waffling on, i'll leave it at that

dougee19

and by right, the hand in question. DEFINATELY should not have been awarded to the guy with the straight flush

nicryan

mmm and this is why there is no rulebook in the fitz...every ruling made by Luke in the fitz is made with the best interest of the game at heart.

also so that Luke doesn't have to deal with rule nazi's

-Nic

kincsem

dougee19 wrote:

and by right, the hand in question. DEFINATELY should not have been awarded to the guy with the straight flush

.............. why?

1. He called the bet.
2. He turned over his hand.
3. He had the best hand.

Mr. Flibble

bohsman wrote:

Not sure who or why someone turned your hand over in the Fitz - there would be war if you did that to the wrong person.

I've seen it a number of times there. There is a call on the river, player a shows his cards or says his hand, player b chucks his cards in as he has the loosing hand and the dealer turns over player b's cards before awarding the pot to player a.

TacT

perhaps rename thread title to: a bad player can cost himself his stack because he is not paying attention. The dealer was on auto-pilot here because the player with the best hand said he had flopped the straight and was mucking his cards. Dealer sees paired board/house and normally he's awarding the pot to that chap.

The dealer bashing is getting tiresome, the best hand wins at showdown, which is a straight flush in this instance. Being a rule nazi to try and win a pot or whatever else is not in the spirit of the game and I consider it downright disgusting carry on, not the way the game should be played.

Ste05

kincsem wrote:

.............. why?

1. He called the bet.
1.1 - Was showed a house and mucked his cards face down on the felt, the rules in the Macau say this hand is dead, therefore it is.
2. He turned over his hand.
3. He had the best hand. but unfortunately it was dead.

Edited your post slightly..

If rules are in place then they should be enforced. End of story. Whatever happened after the player mucked his hand should be irrelevant. He mucked his hand and therefore forfeited the pot. If this rule is bent for one player then why shouldn't another rule be bent later for another person, soon enough there won't be any rules at all, it'll just be a free for all.

I'm not a stickler for rulings, nor would I profess to have any meaningful knowledge on the subject, however, if there is a book of rules, as there appears to be in the Macau, then it must be rigidly adhered to or else they become meaningless, if people don't like the rules, then try and get them changed, or failing that don't play there.

Alternatively, just copy the Fitz...

bohsman

My final ruling on this would be to not play in the Macau because they have bad rules.

Ste05

bohsman wrote:

My final ruling on this would be to not play in the Macau because they have bad rules.

.

carfax

Mr. Flibble wrote:

It seems the only mistake the dealer made was not to slide P2's face down cards into the rest of the discards before he awarded the pot to P1.

Very good point, but the argument isn't wether or not the dealer was at fault.

It was definitely in the interests of the game that the best hand won, its just that the player in question was lucky to get away with releasing his hand.

connie147

I was in the maccau last week playing a cash game and the following happened:
UTG raises and gets called by 3 players including BB. Low flop, utg bets, all three opponnents call. After the turn card,UTG pushes, 1st 2 opponnents fold,BB has his cards in hand and is thinking!. Utg dioesnt realise BB is still involved and pushes his cards over the line thinking the pot was his.BB now makes an attempt to fold his hand not realising whats going on but the dealer immediately pushed him the pot to his amazement.
Now all this time not a word was being spoken.Both utg and BB are Maccau regulars and both accepted the ruling without question.I myself was amazed(utg's cards were pushed over the line but only by about an inch and didnt go near any other mucked cards).The BB was obviously folding but he gets the pot. And no complaint from utg,just saying how stupid he was to fold like that. The dealer didnt even have to explain, they just got on with the next hand so I suppose thats where this arguement over the straight flush winning is coming from.

Would it be right for the dealer in the 2nd instance to say to utg"take back your cards,sir, BB is still to act" or should she just muck them?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Bandana boy

This is what disturbs me about the Macau
They have a set of rules which is good but do not apply any common sense
As posted earlier in the FO a pre flop raisers continuation bet from seat 10 was called by seat 2
now with 10 players it is near impossible while in seats 1,2,9 & 10 to have full table visibility. All other players fold the kid didnt hear seat 2s call and couldnt see his chips so placed his cards over the line
They where clearly identifiable from the muck and at no point did they touch the muck.
But players hand ruled dead
If that was Sideshow or Flipper i cant believe same ruling would have been made

Marq

connie147 wrote:

Would it be right for the dealer in the 2nd instance to say to utg"take back your cards,sir, BB is still to act" or should she just muck them?

This is exactly what I would do. Rules have to be flexible enough to allow for truly innocent mistakes.

smurph

Playing in the SE 1st Boards game, and its the very first hand. A player (who plays alot of hands) bets on a flop with A 10 9 i have A4 offsuit (I was BB) I call, turn is a 3 river 3 he bet both times and I called, he announces house and I mucked my hand. He then turns over A2 now to be fair to him, he genuinely thought he had a house, he never looked back at his cards. A3offsuit is what he thought he had.

I said nothing, but was feck*in fuming because it would have been a split pot. He asked me what I had and I said a 10 and left it at that, i was roaring red with rage for a good 15 minutes. 1st hand and ive dropped 1k already. I went for a little walk came back, but i definitely felt it affected my game big time.

Rule 1, hold onto your hand you see the other players hand. I know this guy from playing and he is a regular player in SE and Drogheda and I genuinely believe he thought he had a house, so I know that it was my own fault.

It was completely my fault for mucking my cards but sometimes you still feel hard done by.

Ste05

smurph wrote:

Playing in the SE 1st Boards game, and its the very first hand. A player (who plays alot of hands) bets on a flop with A 10 9 i have A4 offsuit (I was BB) I call, turn is a 3 river 5

hmmm, a House on an A,10,9,3,5 board??

5starpool

Ste05 wrote:

hmmm, a House on an A,10,9,3,5 board??

Maybe the first hand was Omaha and he thought he could use 3 from his hand?

NickyOD

I'm confused. How did another player point out that he had a straight flush if the cards were face down.

Anyway, cards definitely do not speak after they have been mucked and that was clearly P2's intention. The fact that they didn't actually touch the muck is irrelevent. What's important is the player's intent, which was to muck his cards. Hand is dead. End of story.

How did the cards actually end up getting turned over?

The only way his cards can become live again is if P1 requests to see them. When I'm dealing and a player requests to see another players hand in a showdown I always warn the player that the cards will become live again and I could turn over a better hand, which did actually happen once!