Warning: A bad dealer can cost you your stack!

bohsman · 07-11-2006 01:12AM

kakak1 wrote:

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game.

doesn't this answer the problem

No.

Because these are not the Macaus rules, they are rules taken off a random website.

5starpool · 07-11-2006 01:19AM

Cards should never be turned over by a dealer. A dealer should instruct people to turn over cards to claim a pot, and should say both cards (or all 4 if Omaha) if a person is trying to claim a pot using only 1 card, but should still not turn them over.

dougee19 · 07-11-2006 05:48AM

to be honest i havent read all the posts, im a regular at the macau and lately ive become really pissed off with the lack of knowledge in the place. ive had words with Ken and ament playing in the cash games anymore because of this, the dealers in there dont enforce the rules and to be honest, everyone in there gets mixed up with the rules.
for example, they enforced a new rule since it became no limit, if a player has 49euro they cannot let other players give them 1euro to round them up. weird enough rule, but it is a rule. yet the dealers never enforce it, and the going in on small blind thing, it has taken them 4months to finally get that right. and the "no speech play" is nowhere near enforced. a total joke in there. there are a lot of other things in there that they constantly mess up on aswell
the reason why im not playing there anymore is because of an incident lately, i called for a ruling and i described the hand and the cardroom manager agreed with me, and so did the dealer and so did all bar 1 player, the guy i was complaining about. then this guy complains to ken and ken takes me aside and somehow tries to explain to me that he was in the right, after everyone agreed with me. i told him i saw the exact same thing happen A LOT in the place and he just said that i was wrong and i should appologise to the other guy.
i think ken is good at managing the place, but really should have someone that knows what they are doing, what they did to graham was a disgrace because he was the only one in there who would actually give you a straight answer instead of waffling on
speaking of waffling on, i'll leave it at that

dougee19 · 07-11-2006 05:50AM

and by right, the hand in question. DEFINATELY should not have been awarded to the guy with the straight flush

nicryan · 07-11-2006 06:31AM

mmm and this is why there is no rulebook in the fitz...every ruling made by Luke in the fitz is made with the best interest of the game at heart.

also so that Luke doesn't have to deal with rule nazi's

-Nic

kincsem · 07-11-2006 08:52AM

dougee19 wrote:

and by right, the hand in question. DEFINATELY should not have been awarded to the guy with the straight flush

.............. why?

1. He called the bet.
2. He turned over his hand.
3. He had the best hand.

Mr. Flibble · 07-11-2006 10:36AM

bohsman wrote:

Not sure who or why someone turned your hand over in the Fitz - there would be war if you did that to the wrong person.

I've seen it a number of times there. There is a call on the river, player a shows his cards or says his hand, player b chucks his cards in as he has the loosing hand and the dealer turns over player b's cards before awarding the pot to player a.

TacT · 07-11-2006 10:52AM

perhaps rename thread title to: a bad player can cost himself his stack because he is not paying attention. The dealer was on auto-pilot here because the player with the best hand said he had flopped the straight and was mucking his cards. Dealer sees paired board/house and normally he's awarding the pot to that chap.

The dealer bashing is getting tiresome, the best hand wins at showdown, which is a straight flush in this instance. Being a rule nazi to try and win a pot or whatever else is not in the spirit of the game and I consider it downright disgusting carry on, not the way the game should be played.

Ste05 · 07-11-2006 11:38AM

kincsem wrote:

.............. why?

1. He called the bet.
1.1 - Was showed a house and mucked his cards face down on the felt, the rules in the Macau say this hand is dead, therefore it is.
2. He turned over his hand.
3. He had the best hand. but unfortunately it was dead.

Edited your post slightly..

If rules are in place then they should be enforced. End of story. Whatever happened after the player mucked his hand should be irrelevant. He mucked his hand and therefore forfeited the pot. If this rule is bent for one player then why shouldn't another rule be bent later for another person, soon enough there won't be any rules at all, it'll just be a free for all.

I'm not a stickler for rulings, nor would I profess to have any meaningful knowledge on the subject, however, if there is a book of rules, as there appears to be in the Macau, then it must be rigidly adhered to or else they become meaningless, if people don't like the rules, then try and get them changed, or failing that don't play there.

Alternatively, just copy the Fitz...

bohsman · 07-11-2006 01:30PM

My final ruling on this would be to not play in the Macau because they have bad rules.

Ste05 · 07-11-2006 01:40PM

bohsman wrote:

My final ruling on this would be to not play in the Macau because they have bad rules.

.

carfax · 07-11-2006 02:14PM

Mr. Flibble wrote:

It seems the only mistake the dealer made was not to slide P2's face down cards into the rest of the discards before he awarded the pot to P1.

Very good point, but the argument isn't wether or not the dealer was at fault.

It was definitely in the interests of the game that the best hand won, its just that the player in question was lucky to get away with releasing his hand.

connie147 · 07-11-2006 02:55PM

I was in the maccau last week playing a cash game and the following happened:
UTG raises and gets called by 3 players including BB. Low flop, utg bets, all three opponnents call. After the turn card,UTG pushes, 1st 2 opponnents fold,BB has his cards in hand and is thinking!. Utg dioesnt realise BB is still involved and pushes his cards over the line thinking the pot was his.BB now makes an attempt to fold his hand not realising whats going on but the dealer immediately pushed him the pot to his amazement.
Now all this time not a word was being spoken.Both utg and BB are Maccau regulars and both accepted the ruling without question.I myself was amazed(utg's cards were pushed over the line but only by about an inch and didnt go near any other mucked cards).The BB was obviously folding but he gets the pot. And no complaint from utg,just saying how stupid he was to fold like that. The dealer didnt even have to explain, they just got on with the next hand so I suppose thats where this arguement over the straight flush winning is coming from.

Would it be right for the dealer in the 2nd instance to say to utg"take back your cards,sir, BB is still to act" or should she just muck them?

LuckyLloyd · 07-11-2006 03:00PM

This post has been deleted.

Bandana boy · 07-11-2006 03:21PM

This is what disturbs me about the Macau
They have a set of rules which is good but do not apply any common sense
As posted earlier in the FO a pre flop raisers continuation bet from seat 10 was called by seat 2
now with 10 players it is near impossible while in seats 1,2,9 & 10 to have full table visibility. All other players fold the kid didnt hear seat 2s call and couldnt see his chips so placed his cards over the line
They where clearly identifiable from the muck and at no point did they touch the muck.
But players hand ruled dead
If that was Sideshow or Flipper i cant believe same ruling would have been made

Marq · 07-11-2006 04:31PM

connie147 wrote:

Would it be right for the dealer in the 2nd instance to say to utg"take back your cards,sir, BB is still to act" or should she just muck them?

This is exactly what I would do. Rules have to be flexible enough to allow for truly innocent mistakes.

smurph · 07-11-2006 05:04PM

Playing in the SE 1st Boards game, and its the very first hand. A player (who plays alot of hands) bets on a flop with A 10 9 i have A4 offsuit (I was BB) I call, turn is a 3 river 3 he bet both times and I called, he announces house and I mucked my hand. He then turns over A2 now to be fair to him, he genuinely thought he had a house, he never looked back at his cards. A3offsuit is what he thought he had.

I said nothing, but was feck*in fuming because it would have been a split pot. He asked me what I had and I said a 10 and left it at that, i was roaring red with rage for a good 15 minutes. 1st hand and ive dropped 1k already. I went for a little walk came back, but i definitely felt it affected my game big time.

Rule 1, hold onto your hand you see the other players hand. I know this guy from playing and he is a regular player in SE and Drogheda and I genuinely believe he thought he had a house, so I know that it was my own fault.

It was completely my fault for mucking my cards but sometimes you still feel hard done by.

Ste05 · 07-11-2006 05:08PM

smurph wrote:

Playing in the SE 1st Boards game, and its the very first hand. A player (who plays alot of hands) bets on a flop with A 10 9 i have A4 offsuit (I was BB) I call, turn is a 3 river 5

hmmm, a House on an A,10,9,3,5 board??

5starpool · 07-11-2006 05:18PM

Ste05 wrote:

hmmm, a House on an A,10,9,3,5 board??

Maybe the first hand was Omaha and he thought he could use 3 from his hand?

NickyOD · 07-11-2006 05:53PM

I'm confused. How did another player point out that he had a straight flush if the cards were face down.

Anyway, cards definitely do not speak after they have been mucked and that was clearly P2's intention. The fact that they didn't actually touch the muck is irrelevent. What's important is the player's intent, which was to muck his cards. Hand is dead. End of story.

How did the cards actually end up getting turned over?

The only way his cards can become live again is if P1 requests to see them. When I'm dealing and a player requests to see another players hand in a showdown I always warn the player that the cards will become live again and I could turn over a better hand, which did actually happen once!

5starpool · 07-11-2006 05:59PM

NickyOD wrote:

I'm confused. How did another player point out that he had a straight flush if the cards were face down.

Anyway, cards definitely do not speak after they have been mucked and that was clearly P2's intention. The fact that they didn't actually touch the muck is irrelevent. What's important is the player's intent, which was to muck his cards. Hand is dead. End of story.

How did the cards actually end up getting turned over?

The only way his cards can become live again is if P1 requests to see them. When I'm dealing and a player requests to see another players hand in a showdown I always warn the player that the cards will become live again and I could turn over a better hand, which did actually happen once!

My understanding is that he moaned about flopping the straight, he threw his cards over the line face down, then picked them up and showed them face up to show his bad beat, at which point another player noticed the straight flush.

Sinfonia · 07-11-2006 06:39PM

Ste05 wrote:

Edited your post slightly..

If rules are in place then they should be enforced. End of story. Whatever happened after the player mucked his hand should be irrelevant. He mucked his hand and therefore forfeited the pot. If this rule is bent for one player then why shouldn't another rule be bent later for another person, soon enough there won't be any rules at all, it'll just be a free for all.

I'm not a stickler for rulings, nor would I profess to have any meaningful knowledge on the subject, however, if there is a book of rules, as there appears to be in the Macau, then it must be rigidly adhered to or else they become meaningless, if people don't like the rules, then try and get them changed, or failing that don't play there.

Alternatively, just copy the Fitz...

I was about to post almost the exact same thing as this

I think in a tournament, rules should be strictly adhered to, and the rules should be posted somewhere where everyone can read them...
In a cash game I feel that the only way a rule can be bent/broken is by unanimous decision from the players.

Also, what do people mean exactly by "the spirit of the game"?

NickyOD · 07-11-2006 07:24PM

5starpool wrote:

My understanding is that he moaned about flopping the straight, he threw his cards over the line face down, then picked them up and showed them face up to show his bad beat, at which point another player noticed the straight flush.

Well in that case I guess you have to give him the pot than. It's impossible to rule that he mucked his cards.

DeVore · 07-11-2006 07:52PM

I'd prefer if this didnt become a general moan thread about the Macau, lets stay on topic and not wander off with any more anecdotes.

I dont think I've seen so many people get the wrong end of a stick by the way. The hand goes as follows:

A. p2 calls p1 on the river. Its a showdown.

B. P1 declares and shows a house.

C. p2 mucks his hand, complaining he flopped a straight.

D. p2 unmucks his hand to show that he isnt lying about how much the poker gods hate him because *everyone* needs to understand and believe that

E. P3 points out that he has a straight flush

F. The rest seems to be clear enough.

My thoughts on the above:

1. The Macau rules the hand dead when it crosses the line. For many reasons I think this is a *bad* rule. However it is the rule there. Everything I subsequently say should be seen in the light of that.

2. The hand is as mucked as if it had hit the muck in the fitz. The pot should be awarded to the guy with the house (p1). You cant change rules like that on a whim, it would be like us in the Fitz saying "they only touched the muck by the corners, surely I can have them back"

3. I cant see how any of this is the dealers fault even with several re-interpretations with other clubs rules etc. He didnt turn the cards over, P2 did. He didnt point out the straight flush (though he probably should do) and ultimately he didnt award the pot to P2, the floor did.

4. I've never ever in all my nights of playing in the fitz, ever seen a dealer expose a mucked hand for no reason. There would be freakin' war. I think Mr Fibble is mistaking some other occurance for that. When I worked in the fitz if the hand was shown to another player, I'd expose the hand (usually after explaining to the player that I have to, sometimes if I really didnt like the player I might do it without explanation, the first is simply a courtesy.. its getting turned over whether they like it or not).
If another player in a tournament has requested to see the hand(s) at showdown I'll also turn them over, again its a courtesy to ask.

DeV.

bohsman · 07-11-2006 08:01PM

DeVore wrote:

#
2. The hand is as mucked as if it had hit the muck in the fitz. The pot should be awarded to the guy with the house (p1). You cant change rules like that on a whim, it would be like us in the Fitz saying "they only touched the muck by the corners, surely I can have them back"

4. I've never ever in all my nights of playing in the fitz, ever seen a dealer expose a mucked hand for no reason. There would be freakin' war. I think Mr Fibble is mistaking some other occurance for that. When I worked in the fitz if the hand was shown to another player, I'd expose the hand (usually after explaining to the player that I have to, sometimes if I really didnt like the player I might do it without explanation, the first is simply a courtesy.. its getting turned over whether they like it or not).
If another player in a tournament has requested to see the hand(s) at showdown I'll also turn them over, again its a courtesy to ask.

DeV.

2 I have had my hand taken out of the muck and exposed in the Fitz, I was not impressed.

4 I would not be showing that hand unless someone requested it to be shown.

Mr. Flibble · 07-11-2006 08:14PM

DeVore wrote:

4. I've never ever in all my nights of playing in the fitz, ever seen a dealer expose a mucked hand for no reason. There would be freakin' war. I think Mr Fibble is mistaking some other occurance for that. When I worked in the fitz if the hand was shown to another player, I'd expose the hand (usually after explaining to the player that I have to, sometimes if I really didnt like the player I might do it without explanation, the first is simply a courtesy.. its getting turned over whether they like it or not).
If another player in a tournament has requested to see the hand(s) at showdown I'll also turn them over, again its a courtesy to ask.

I don't think I'm mistaken (of course!). Some people think that all hands at a showdown should be exposed, a misinterpretation of the anti-collusion rule, perhaps this was the reason.

dougee19 · 07-11-2006 10:35PM

kincsem wrote:

.............. why?

1. He called the bet.
2. He turned over his hand.
3. He had the best hand.

no, he called the bet. he mucked his hand across the line and then he turned them over. if your cards go over the line face down they are mucked. they are the rules in the macau but they just dont enforce them sometimes, other times they are very strict. its different between every night and every dealer

dougee19 · 07-11-2006 10:42PM

NickyOD wrote:

Well in that case I guess you have to give him the pot than. It's impossible to rule that he mucked his cards.

in the macau the cards are mucked. without a doubt in my mind.

dougee19 · 07-11-2006 10:50PM

connie147 wrote:

I was in the maccau last week playing a cash game and the following happened:
UTG raises and gets called by 3 players including BB. Low flop, utg bets, all three opponnents call. After the turn card,UTG pushes, 1st 2 opponnents fold,BB has his cards in hand and is thinking!. Utg dioesnt realise BB is still involved and pushes his cards over the line thinking the pot was his.BB now makes an attempt to fold his hand not realising whats going on but the dealer immediately pushed him the pot to his amazement.
Now all this time not a word was being spoken.Both utg and BB are Maccau regulars and both accepted the ruling without question.I myself was amazed(utg's cards were pushed over the line but only by about an inch and didnt go near any other mucked cards).The BB was obviously folding but he gets the pot. And no complaint from utg,just saying how stupid he was to fold like that. The dealer didnt even have to explain, they just got on with the next hand so I suppose thats where this arguement over the straight flush winning is coming from.

Would it be right for the dealer in the 2nd instance to say to utg"take back your cards,sir, BB is still to act" or should she just muck them?

by right the hand is mucked by the macau rules. what usually happens is that the two players involved come to some agreement but if the player who is awarded the pot is an ass then nothing can be done. happened to me before, i turned over my cards face up, never said what i had. dealer awarded the pot to some other guy when i had a str8, he only had a pair. the money was across the line and i never got it back. was only like 28/30 euro but still, really bad form

kincsem · 07-11-2006 11:24PM

Everytime you say "the macau rules" I think to myself "no, the macau does not rule".

As Devore says, I think this thread is putting / showing the Macau in a bad light, possibly undeservedly.

The rules I hope clubs follow are similar to "Robert's Rules" by Bob Ciaffone, 3rd in the 1987 WSOP, and a contributor to Cardplayer magazine.

I won't comment on your three posts above as I suspect that if I do you will be posting more and more until I give up.

One last point I make is "the line" that is continually mentioned in posts about the rules, is not mentioned once afaik in Bob Ciaffone's rules. Just because a table cloth manufacturer paints a line does not mean clubs have to invent a rule to go with that line.

Warning: A bad dealer can cost you your stack!

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