Decentralisation

NewDubliner · 05-10-2006 06:58PM

The latest DIG report can be found here: http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=4277

A number of points have slipped past the mostly gullible press coverage:

1: The report makes no attempt to connect the targets it claims it is meeting with the original objectives of the scheme. For example, it gives no breakdown of how many people on target for 'decentralising' to Kilrush, actually work in Dublin.

No details given of how much they will have relieved Dublin traffic or reduced house-price inflation (remember these fantastic claims?).

2: It acknowledges that there will be costs outside of building costs, but buries the detail in a smokescreen of requesting the departments to report back on it. (So no details yet of the cost of churn or building fit-outs.)

3: The out-sourcing of the data centres to 'World Class Data-Centers' has been abandoned. In fact the report reveals that the original recommendation was totally unworkable. One reason given is concerns over the security of privately-run facilities.

Locations such as Dublin, Cork and Limerick (none of which need the work) are given as possible new sites.

4: Serious issues such as the disposal of unwanted Dublin-based specialist staff are kicked to touch.

very miffed dub · 07-10-2006 01:40AM

The upper management where I work are starting to panic now because they realise they'll be taking inexperienced staff to the new location in the new year (although they've spent thousands of euro on training them).

The existing experienced Dublin staff are living from day to day, constantly phoning the Personnel Section to see if there are any vacancies.

Personally, I just want to get out because as much as I loved my job, my so called replacement is so bad that I'm embarassed by their work.

After a meeting this week it was decided that all remaining highly experienced Dublin staff would be rewarded with an extra day's leave per month.

I don't know what to do - Agree to stay on the Titanic or jump now??

Any thoughts?

The_Conductor · 07-10-2006 02:24PM

I know what you mean- my own department (Agriculture) sent me an e-mail to say they are refusing to release me to a job offer in the IT section in Revenue, as they cannot get replacement staff who are willing to transfer to Portlaoise. They further stated that they are withdrawing fully from the Dublin based transfer system altogether, until such time as Finance figure a way to get over the debacle of all the experienced staff being haemoraged elsewhere.

Politicians see civil servants as totally interchangeable in their roles and able to walk into each others jobs with no notice whatsoever. In a lot of cases this is blatantly not true- in my case I'd like to see them find another EO with a science degree and a private sector background in finance willing to work on an EO salary...... they won't........

Diaspora · 07-10-2006 07:40PM

Politicians are always claiming kudos for relationship building and delivering on the basis of relationship synergies but CCs are presumed not to have any worthwhile professional relationships and can be moved around like pawns on a monopoly board and if you want to stay put do not pass go unless you fancy the private sector. I think that decentralisation has been very revealing in displaying the actual esteem that CCs are held in by those in the current administration.

rebelbanner · 10-10-2006 08:24PM

Have offer of move to preferred location - Current hold ups with Dublin transfers mean no move - if anyone is genuinely interested in a HEO post on southside & on Dart line please let me know

Macy · 12-10-2006 09:01AM

From the Indo/ Unison http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=1703768&issue_id=14749

Job move shambles as just 750 opt to go

Plan to decentralise 10,000 civil servants at standstill

THE Government's ill-fated plan to move 10,000 public servants out of Dublin has ground to a halt.

Fewer than 1,000 staff have moved in the three years since the decentralisation plan was announced. And the Irish Independent has learned that some of those who have made the move were already based outside Dublin.

The costly shambles was denounced last night by Opposition politicians.

Labour's finance spokeswoman Joan Burton said the latest figures proved the Government had pulled a "political stroke" when announcing the plan in December 2003.

The plan was unveiled in the 2003 Budget by then Finance Minister Charlie McCreevy, who warned it would be an "electoral catastrophe" if the 10,000 transfers had not been completed by the next general election. But only about 750 public servants have moved so far and the Government's Decentralisation Implementation Group (DIG) concedes that, at best, only around 2,000 will be in new locations by the time of the election next year.

The latest figures show that:

* Only about 750 staff will have moved by the end of the year.

* Only two of the 390 FAS head office staff destined for Birr have actually moved to the Co Offaly town - and they were new recruits.

* Not a single one of 11 recent FAS head office promotions has opted to leave Dublin.

The bill for the entire decentralisation project was originally put at €900m for sites and accommodation alone.

To date non-property costs, such as additional training, planning and staff transfers, have cost the taxpayers €1.6m, according to the DIG .

So far, the Office of Public Works, which is managing the property aspects of the programme, has committed €36m on 23 site acquisitions.

It has also brought in over €300m on a number of high-profile State property sales in Dublin.

Finance Minister Brian Cowen said the aim of the programme was to match as closely as possible, in time and cost terms, the acquisition of property outside Dublin with the disposal of property in the capital.

Green Party finance spokesman Dan Boyle described the decentralisation project as a "flawed concept".

"The figures speak for themselves," he said.

"Even of those who have applied, most are not based in the Dublin area. It's just another reshuffling of the deckchairs."

Ms Burton said it was quite clear that the Government's targets would not be met.

"The Government is now scrambling to create a smokescreen that the decentralisation programme is back on track," she said.

"The Government is proceeding to purchase land and offices. The reality of the figures is that very significant numbers of public servants are choosing the stay-at-home in Dublin option.

"Decentralisation as set out by this Government is a political stroke. The taxpayer is paying the cost in terms of what's happening."

Fine Gael finance spokesman Richard Bruton said the low take-up showed the Government had "manifestly" failed.

The only state agency to decentralise so far has been a new chemicals safety unit established by the HSA in Kilkenny.

Gerard Flynn and Fionnan Sheahan

NewDubliner · 23-10-2006 05:39PM

This from the Irish Daily Mail, the figures for land/buildings sold includes properties that were not part of the decentralisation scheme.

We shall not be moved!
Irish Daily Mail
Mon, 23 Oct 2006
FEWER than 700 out of a proposed 10,000 civil servants will be transferred out of Dublin by the end of this year, according to the latest figures.

The massively disappointing Department of Finance estimate shows that the decentralisation programme is an even bigger disaster than previously believed.

Former Minister for Finance Charlie McCreevy announced the plan in the 2003 budget with a strict deadline of the end of this year for its full implementation.

But the Government's Decentralisation Implementation Group has now conceded that a mere 700 will have moved by the McCreevy dead-Line and that only 2,000, or 20 per cent of the intended total, will have transferred by the end of 2007.

There has been huge opposition from civil service unions to the plan and some Government Ministers now concede that it was hopelessly ambitious.

They also see it as a chink in the Government's armour at election time. Both Taoiseach Bertie Ahern ind Finance Minister Brian Cowen see the decentralisation time bomb is a potential vote loser. 'Bertie is furious that McCreevy's plan is going to cost them a huge amount of votes. It's become a complete and utter disaster,' said a senior Government source.

'The only bright spot is the Opposition have to be careful about attacking it because most of them supported it when it was first launched. They thought it was going to bring jobs to their constituencies, but the only place jobs have gone is to Laois Offaly where Parlon and Cowen are based.'

The bill for the entire decentralisation project was originally put at EUR900million for sites and accommodation alone. So far, the Office of Public Works, which is managing the property aspects of the programme, has committed EUR36million to 23 site acquisitions, but it has also brought in more than EUR300million on a number of high-profile State property sales in Dublin.

Green Party finance spokesman Dan Boyle described the project as a 'flawed concept'. 'The figures speak for themselves,' he said.

Ironically, the Department of Finance, where the original plan was hatched, is forking out nearly EUR17million on a new office in the centre of the capital. The Office of Public Works, which is answerable to the Department of Finance, said a contract worth EUR17million has been signed with one of the country's biggest construction companies to carry out a major redevelopment of a State-owned building on Dublin's Merrion Row.

Part of the contract includes the building of a pedestrian tunnel connecting the development to Government Buildings. Under the plans, 180 officials from Brian Cowen's department will move out of rented premises around the city when the renovations are finished.

Another 300 staff will work around the corner on Merrion Street, further 120 officials will be based in Tullamore, Co. Offaly. The building was formerly used by the National Museum of Ireland.

Confirming the development yesterday, a spokesman explained that the building backs on to the Department of the Taoiseach and it could be a security risk if it were to fall into private hands.

The contract was signed by the Office of Public Works, which is overseen by Minister for State Tom Parlon, the man who has responsibility for the decentralisation programme.

The move also bucks the trend of selling off valuable State-owned property in the city centre. The Department of Justice building on St Stephen's Green has been sold off and there are also plans to dispose of Hawkins House, the Department of Health's HQ.

Last year the Government raised EUR200million from the sale of such properties. This development will involve the construction of a six storey office block at 7-9 Merrion Row.

NewDubliner · 23-10-2006 05:42PM

This from the Sunday Tribune, the most important fact, that most of the expensively trained experts will have to be replaced is somewhat lost among the other points

Data centre move in danger due to poor power supply
Sunday Tribune
Sun, 22 Oct 2006,
PLANS to move more than 800 Dublin-based government IT staff into new world-class data centres around the country are in jeopardy because there may not be enough electricity to power such centres outside the capital, according to the Department of Finance.

As part of the government's plan to decentralise 10,000 public servants, finance minister Brian Cowen wants to shift specialist IT staff working in Revenue Commissioners and the departments of health, finance and agriculture into world-class 'data warehouses' outside Dublin.

Because very few of the 835 IT staff actually want to move out of Dublin, however, a feasibility study was conducted into the plan. This has unearthed several problems, including limited electricity supply outside the country's main urban centres, and the move is now being reconsidered.

The data centres could only be located in the greater Dublin, Limerick or Cork regions," according to the study, which was presented to the government's decentralisation implementation group. It went on to point out the need for these centres to "maintain replicated versions of key data in as near to real time as possible which has distance limitations even using high-speed fibre-optic connections".

But an ESB spokesman denied that the company could not supply the necessary power in provincial locations. "Certainly, we couldn't do it tomorrow because the cost of maintaining large power supply lines throughout the country would be prohibitive.

"But once we have advance warning, save in west Donegal and west Galway where the whole system needs an upgrade, we could supply the required power anywhere in the country," said the ESB spokesman.

In addition to the power supply limitations, the Department of Finance said that given the sensitivity of the data held in these new centres and international data protections laws, it would have concerns about the security of the data managed by the private sector. "Government bodies would need robust assurances that data centre operators could protect the security of public service data," said the Finance report.

The_Conductor · 23-10-2006 06:05PM

NewDubliner wrote:

Confirming the development yesterday, a spokesman explained that the building backs on to the Department of the Taoiseach and it could be a security risk if it were to fall into private hands.

Yes.....
That would be the Stationary store which is part of the Department of Agriculture/Army Barracks complex which exits onto Merrion Square. The only way it would possibly fall into private hands is if someone in the OPW decided to sell it, its been in State hands from the outset...... The Department of Finance Staff are currently in rented accommmodation at 2-4 Merrion Row (next door to the Old Irish Ferries Offices).

Its amazing the reporter never checked to see where exactly these properties actually are.....

what to do? · 29-10-2006 12:39AM

new to this. dont have time to read 84 pages, but scanned through the more recent stuff.

what do people think of the career prospects if committed to remaining in dublin??

have been offered a HEO post in an awful place (not going to name it). On a pannel which expires shortly after christmas and dont expect another offer. Been in the civil service a good while at this stage.

If i go down the country and sign up for three years, will i ever get back to dublin??

would i be mad to go?? i could do with the money and i think its about time that i started moving up if i ever want to get anywhere. will this all fizzle out after the next election?

to be honest, i feel that if i dont take this i could be stuck at my grade for several years. have undergrad, h.dip and masters and dont see any difficulty getting a job outside the civil service, but i'd like to make a career for myself at what i've been doing now for nearly a decade.

also the fact that my family, friends, past-times, sports clubs, house (which i've only recently moved into - but bought off the plans a few years ago) are all based in dublin. if i go i'll be totally on my own in the middle of no-where!

any comments or advice?

TempestSabre · 29-10-2006 01:03AM

I don't that much experience of the public sector, but promotions can take a very long time in some places. Recruitment embargo and lack of opportunities means people don't move on, and there aren't new position being recruited.

Really depends on the specific area you are in. I think its all a bit of guesswork at the moment. I think the public sector positions in Dublin will get fewer and fewer over the next decade or so.

For many they have too many ties to move, and the remote locations are not attractive either to a family or single people. I think its very individual decision.

Hotblack Desiato · 30-10-2006 07:29PM

It could be a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

If you go - you will be leaving behind your home, family, friends etc. and a job which presumably you enjoy, and moving to a location you don't seem very enthusiastic about. You could end up doing a job you hate working for a complete a**e of an AP, a friend of mine's life was made a misery by just such a person, not bullying but not far off it and very unpleasant. Your prospects of further promotion in the new location will be very limited so you'll have to move again (outside Dublin) if you succeed in promotion. There again you could end up working with great people doing a job you really enjoy, but it's a lottery, and shifting an unsuitable manager from a decentralised location is more difficult than it is in Dublin. If you end up working for one there is likely nothing you'll be able to do about it.

If you stay - there will be a big surplus of Dublin HEOs post-decentralisation, so promotional vacancies in Dublin will be very limited. How long this situation will go on for is anyone's guess but it's likely to be at least 5 years. By then you'll be well up the EO scale so the financial benefit of promotion will be reduced. Most importantly, you already own your own home for a few years so the mortgage should be affordable.

My advice - stay put unless there is a compelling reason to move. As a HEO I'd say - if you can afford to stay an EO and like your job, stay where you are. The money on offer isn't always worth the grief associated with managing staff, projects etc. There's a hell of a lot to be said for going in, doing what you're told and going home and letting the HEOs and APs worry about risk, staffing, management etc. etc.

The_Conductor · 30-10-2006 10:46PM

Very good way of putting it.....

On top of everything else though is the fact that some of the government Departments have withdrawn from the Dublin based DCAF system altogether, as they were unable to get staff in who were willing to transfer to backfill/replace staff offered transfers to other Departments.

Aka there are a finite number of Dublin based civil servants willing to transfer to specific locations- as anyone could have predicted right from the very beginning.

NewDubliner · 30-10-2006 11:14PM

smccarrick wrote:

On top of everything else though is the fact that some of the government Departments have withdrawn from the Dublin based DCAF system altogether,

The DCAF is pointless if you're an IT specialist. Since the government has decided to banish all IT specialists from Dublin, applying to the DCAF would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.

First you're agreeing to leave your chosen vocation, second you're volunteering to train your replacement.

The_Conductor · 31-10-2006 12:04AM

NewDubliner wrote:

The DCAF is pointless if you're an IT specialist. Since the government has decided to banish all IT specialists from Dublin, applying to the DCAF would be like a turkey voting for Christmas.

First you're agreeing to leave your chosen vocation, second you're volunteering to train your replacement.

Its the exact same if you are in a financial role, a scientific role or indeed anything other than a manilla administrative role. I've been told to write a procedure manual to cover every single possible eventuality with my job- given that it involves a lot of things that seldom occur for which there is no precedent and for which there is no particular prescribed course of action- its impossible. Someone somewhere got a bee in their bonnet about anyone being able to do our jobs and ran with it. Unfortunately they are unwilling to acknowledge their mistake- so everyone, including the taxpayer, is going to suffer.....

Victor · 31-10-2006 12:23AM

smccarrick wrote:

Someone somewhere got a bee in their bonnet about anyone being able to do our jobs and ran with it. Unfortunately they are unwilling to acknowledge their mistake- so everyone, including the taxpayer, is going to suffer.....

Send them a university syllabus.

CathyMoran · 31-10-2006 12:34AM

Victor wrote:

Send them a university syllabus.

They would not be bright enough to follow it!

what to do? · 02-11-2006 11:46PM

thanks for the replies.

i guess its a personal choice, i just wanted to hear people's views on the likely future of decentralisation.

i've always planned on going travelling for a year or two or more.

i suppose if i do my three years in the provincial location and take a career break it would be unlikely that i'd be sent back there on returning to the country - i know i'd probably be sent rural - but the location might be better than the current offer.

i think if i turn down the HEO now, i may well be offered it again in two or three years and it will still be to a provincial location even then. so if i take it now, in two or three years i can go travelling and also be elegible to give the AP competitions a bash - as opposed to staying an EO for another two or three years, go travelling and then in six years time be coming back as an EO.

someone mentioned its not worth the extra hassle - from what i've seen (and no offence intended) its a pretty run of the mill midle-management position that wouldn't exactly turn the hair grey. There will always be exceptions, but I think, in general, the HEO grade is fairly simple. I think the same can be said about a lot of AP positions too. As I say though - thats from WHAT I'VE SEEN. I've been in the same Dept. for the last number of years now and the emphasis is on policy work - which is really PO and above - the HEO's are primarily concerned with staffing and ensuring work gets done - in a previous position i had staff in the double figures so that doesn't really bother me. I know the AOs would say they do policy work - but that just doesn't happen from what i've seen - it really is only POs and above - and mostly above PO - that get involved in policy.

thanks again.

CathyMoran · 03-11-2006 08:10AM

Shane and I have the problem that we are both in different departments, due to be married by the end of the year, on the AO panel and want to make sure that we are not at opposite ends of the country when we move. Would love HEO, it seems like a nice post, AO would definitly suit me but AP would not suit me at the moment as I hope to have kids in the next few years and loosing flexi time would be too hard at the moment unless we both got it and did shorter weeks, the financial loss would be too great otherwise.

I also have a Masters, Grad Dip and will be finishing my second Masters next year, the fact that I never use any of my skills in work drives me batty sometimes but I would still not leave the service, at least I know that I will be able to finish my Masters part time without too much fuss. I have only been an EO for around 2 years but am dying to move up.

Still, my ultimate goal is to to be AP in maybe 10 years?

Victor · 03-11-2006 08:38AM

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1103/1162507108885.html

Agency due to decentralise leases Dublin offices
Stephen Collins, Political Correspondent

Enterprise Ireland has taken out a 25-year lease on two office blocks in Dublin to accommodate 600 staff, though the State agency is supposed to move to Shannon under the Government's decentralisation programme.

A spokeswoman for Enterprise Ireland confirmed yesterday that the lease had been taken out on office accommodation at East Point in Dublin's docklands in a move designed to bring together all the agency's staff, from four locations in the city.

The spokeswoman said Enterprise Ireland was committed to implementing the direction from the Government, and that the headquarters of the agency should be moved to Shannon but it was not possible to say when the move would take place.

So far just 19 of the 600 members of the agency staff based in Dublin have indicated a willingness to move to Shannon. Under the terms of the Government plan the move can only be made on a voluntary basis.

The disclosure that the agency had taken out a lease on two office blocks in Dublin was made by the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Micheál Martin, in response to a Dáil question from Labour's finance spokeswoman, Joan Burton.

Ms Burton said last night this was yet another example of how the Government's decentralisation programme was now in a complete shambles.

"A 25-year lease for two office buildings would seem to indicate that the programme of decentralisation is not going to take place any time soon, unless the Government plans to duplicate staff at Shannon," she said.

Ms Burton said it was amazing that Mr Martin had sanctioned such a significant lease in the context of the Government's stated decentralisation programme.

"A close reading of the Minister's reply would suggest that facilities will be located at Shannon but they will be to service staff and activities which are already located outside the Dublin area.

"This follows the pattern of what we know to date of the decentralisation of public services outside the Dublin area. People working in agencies like Enterprise Ireland are for family and career reasons reluctant to leave Dublin," said Ms Burton.

In his Dáil response, Mr Martin reiterated that the headquarters of Enterprise Ireland, including 300 posts, would be relocated. He said, however, that the board had decided to bring all Dublin-based staff, currently in four separate locations, together into one Dublin location. The lease had a break clause to allow Enterprise Ireland to manage changes in accommodation levels. Mr Martin said a preferred site for a new headquarters at Shannon had been identified but not yet acquired.

Mr Martin said it was impossible to say when the full move of Enterprise Ireland's headquarters would take place and the timing would be influenced by the level of interest in the Shannon location expressed by applicants seeking a transfer.

The_Conductor · 03-11-2006 10:43AM

One thing I would check is whether you are eligible for promotion from HEO to AP if you take a career break- as the time on the career break would not normally be reckonable towards tenure at HEO level for promotional (or superannuation) purposes. Clarify this with your Personnel section/union.

Another thing to think about is the PSEU and the AHCPS have both agreed that internal promotions will be subject to candidates undergoing the written examinations of the PAS that apply for external candidates (from next January I believe- feel free to correct me on this though). The entire internal promotional structure is being redesigned- tenure will no longer be a deciding factor at all (other than in determining eligibility to enter the competion in the first instance) merit, as determined in the first instance by examination and in the second instance by interview will hereafter be the determining methods.

Re: Different grades of work- including policy work- where I am COs/SOs would regularly do PQs/Reps EOs/HEOs policy and financial stuff, APs planning POs coordinating- it really depends on where you are and varies significantly from Department to Department. I'm an EO and I attend Council working groups and Commission Management Committees all the time- its part of EO duties here- I am also involved in a shipload of staffing and financial matters- it really depends......

what to do? wrote:

thanks for the replies.

i guess its a personal choice, i just wanted to hear people's views on the likely future of decentralisation.

i've always planned on going travelling for a year or two or more.

i suppose if i do my three years in the provincial location and take a career break it would be unlikely that i'd be sent back there on returning to the country - i know i'd probably be sent rural - but the location might be better than the current offer.

i think if i turn down the HEO now, i may well be offered it again in two or three years and it will still be to a provincial location even then. so if i take it now, in two or three years i can go travelling and also be elegible to give the AP competitions a bash - as opposed to staying an EO for another two or three years, go travelling and then in six years time be coming back as an EO.

someone mentioned its not worth the extra hassle - from what i've seen (and no offence intended) its a pretty run of the mill midle-management position that wouldn't exactly turn the hair grey. There will always be exceptions, but I think, in general, the HEO grade is fairly simple. I think the same can be said about a lot of AP positions too. As I say though - thats from WHAT I'VE SEEN. I've been in the same Dept. for the last number of years now and the emphasis is on policy work - which is really PO and above - the HEO's are primarily concerned with staffing and ensuring work gets done - in a previous position i had staff in the double figures so that doesn't really bother me. I know the AOs would say they do policy work - but that just doesn't happen from what i've seen - it really is only POs and above - and mostly above PO - that get involved in policy.

thanks again.

chuckberry · 05-11-2006 09:22PM

Victor wrote:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/front/2006/1103/1162507108885.html

Excellent to see PeeDee's and the other F Fer's being made look like idiots I expect after the next election the decentralisation concept will be quietly left to die a natural death. At least if FF/PD's expect to be re-elected.

So much tax payers money and so little time to squander it!

Lets see now, only 15 per cent of specialist civil servants, and
fewer state agency staff, have volunteered to relocate under the Government’s decentralisation programme.

The decentralisation programme poses unique and insurmoutable problems in the departments that depend heavily on specialists because they
cannot be replaced by other public servants who lack the required skills, qualifications and experience. Local labour markets cannot fill these
specialist posts.

Transferring Dublin based specialists to nonspecialist posts would mean that their skills were lost to the civil service. It would also deprive them of career prospects. The lack of take up among specialist staff means that decentralisation is impractical and idotic (unless you are FF'er or other nefarious type) for a large number of organisations.

On a conservative estimate, and on current Department of Finance CAF figures, decentralisation of civil service organisations with high dependence
on specialists could cost the taxpayer between €51.1 and €65.5 million a year at current salaries and rents.

As a taxpayer in in a profitable enterprise I actively vote against any goverment that squanders my money on mad cap schemes.

The programme will also have a massive negative impact on the already piss poor service quality, mainly due to the creation of skills shortages, upheaval caused by staff transfers etc etc
Many specialist functions would simply collapse. Specialists staff are also concerned that the current proposals will affect their jobs, working conditions and career prospects. Having worked in many areas on contract for the civil service I see their Management has made no concrete proposals to deal with
these issues in negotiations, including in areas where the Decentralisation

Bring on the election please

NewDubliner · 05-11-2006 10:16PM

chuckberry wrote:

Excellent to see PeeDee's and the other F Fer's being made look like idiots I expect after the next election the decentralisation concept will be quietly left to die a natural death. At least if FF/PD's expect to be re-elected.

I would not be quite as optimistic.

Votes can be gained from the anti-Dublin and the 'bash the overpaid, inefficient civil servants' mob. This could be enough to embolden the government to make the moves compulsory, especially if they scrape through as expected. The resulting mayhem, for example in IT, would open to door to out-sourcing, a veritable wet-dream scenario for the PDs. The idea could be easily sold to the public on the back of the failure of PPARS and PULSE. (Yes, I know these were largely out-sourced, but the public does not appreciate this.)

With so much money sloshing around in the economy, nobody would notice the extra costs.

The opposition is treading carefully in case it alienates the culchie vote.

TempestSabre · 05-11-2006 10:33PM

Theres lots of ways to spin it.

Macy · 06-11-2006 10:56AM

NewDubliner wrote:

This could be enough to embolden the government to make the moves compulsory, especially if they scrape through as expected.

They couldn't afford the redundancy that would be due. This is why they keep the pretence of it being voluntary whilst using tools of compulsion like no promotions if you wont go. They will keep doing this until someone takes a constructive dismissal case (some have started, but have suddenly been "looked after" rather than the Government risk it).

NewDubliner · 06-11-2006 06:46PM

From 'The Times', November 5th:

Scheme to quit Dublin on brink of collapse
Richard Oakley
THE Irish government’s plan to move 10,000 public and civil servants out of Dublin is in danger of collapse because almost two-thirds of technical staff employed in key departments are refusing to apply for jobs outside the capital.

Figures obtained by The Sunday Times reveal that a number of state bodies are unable to complete their planned relocations because of the reluctance of specialist employees such as archeologists, school inspectors and transport officers to leave Dublin.

The figures, collated by the Central Applications Facility (Caf), were omitted from a recent report by the Decentralisation Implementation Group (Dig), which claimed that the process was going to plan. The Caf figures show that up to the end of June, just 368 people had applied for the 1,036 technical and professional civil-service jobs due for relocation in 25 departments.

Peter Clinch, professor of regional and urban planning in University College Dublin, said the figures showed decentralisation was “unravelling” and had the potential, if forced through, to cause serious and costly problems in the civil service.

He described the planned decentralisation process as “one of the most short-sighted, poorly researched and potentially damaging” political decisions since the abolition of domestic rates in 1978. “Despite earlier government figures suggesting a willingness on the part of staff to move out of Dublin, there was always a suspicion that people wanted to move to specific places rather than move to where their skills were most required,” Clinch said.

“On the basis of these figures, it seems likely that the implementation of the plan would require significant additional and wasteful expenditure on hiring and retraining staff in order to fill the unwanted vacancies. There will be further waste involved in continuing to pay those who remain in Dublin but no longer have the responsibilities they had before.”

The revelation that a majority of technical staff have refused to quit their Dublin offices is the second blow to decentralisation in a week. On Friday it emerged that Enterprise Ireland, the state body that is supposed to be relocating to Shannon, has signed a 25-year lease on two office blocks in Dublin to house 600 staff.

Just 19 of the agency’s staff have said they are willing to move and Enterprise Ireland said it was not possible to say when relocation would take place. Micheal Martin, the minister with responsibility for the agency, said a new headquarters at Shannon was identified “but not yet acquired”.

There is a growing belief in political circles that the decentralisation plan, developed in secrecy before being unveiled by Charlie McCreevy in his December 2003 budget speech, will be scaled down significantly after next year’s general election. The figures obtained by The Sunday Times indicate that continuing with the process as currently planned may be impossible anyway.

The Department of the Environment, for example, is short of 128 workers for its move to the south east. The Department of Agriculture still needs 103 technical workers to apply for posts being decentralised to Portlaoise, Macroom and Fermoy, while the Office of Public Works is short of 99 personnel for its relocations to Claremorris, Kanturk and Trim.

The shortage is particularly severe in the Department of Education — not a single school inspector has applied for the 22 posts that are due to be relocated to Mullingar. There is a similar situation in the Department of Communications — no geologists have applied for 15 posts due to be moved to Cavan. The environment department still requires 16 archeologists to move to Waterford.

The Caf figures show that there were no suitable applicants for the 17 transport officers required by the Department of Transport in Loughrea and that there had been no applicants for the 11 laboratory attendant jobs sought by the Department of Agriculture in Macroom.

In addition to a dearth of applications for posts considered crucial to the successful running of these and other departments, the figures also show that 488 technical and professional staff have indicated they want to move to places where they are not needed.

According to Louise O’Donnell, the national secretary of the trade union Impact, the situation proves the decentralisation plan is a “mess” and that the government claims of progress “make little sense”. She said that even when one examines the situation of the 500 staff who have already been moved, it appears that these include only 20% of technical and professional staff.

O’Donnell said: “We have assurances that the process will remain voluntary and that people will be allowed to continue working in Dublin until they are found the same work. Only then can their jobs move to a new location and be filled by someone else.”

The recent report from Dig said that decentralisation is “progressing well”, although only 500 have moved so far and it predicts that just 2,000 will have moved by the end of 2007.

The Sunday Times previously reported that almost half the people who wanted to decentralise already live outside Dublin.

Rael · 06-11-2006 08:59PM

Folks,

I have a question for ya.

I'm currently in with a small chance of an AO's job in the IT section in Revenue. I was wondering if you guys could answer some questions?

1. Revenue is due to decentralise to Kildare, what are the chances of this happening, when is it due to happen and where in Kildare is it decentralising to?

2. I'd like to get involved eventually in policy formulation and legislation, how hard is it to get out of the IT section in Revenue. could the move be considered an end to my ambitions

3. What is it like to work there, if there's anyone here that can answer the question?

4. Whats the feeling and likelihood of the decentralisation of Revenue actually taking place? I'm a Dub at heart and would like to stay home but the pay increase would be substantial

Cheers,

Rael

NewDubliner · 06-11-2006 09:30PM

You're in luck, I know somebody that works there.

Rael wrote:

1. Revenue is due to decentralise to Kildare, what are the chances of this happening, when is it due to happen and where in Kildare is it decentralising to?

Due to start 2009, subject to DOF approval for the (very expensive) plan. No known location. Possibly beside the meat factory. 85% of specialist IT staff don't want to go.

Rael wrote:

2. I'd like to get involved eventually in policy formulation and legislation, how hard is it to get out of the IT section in Revenue. could the move be considered an end to my ambitions

Virtually impossible. There's just been carnage in the internal HEO-AP competition, IT candidates fared really badly. You'll be stuck there. And you won't learn anything that will help you progress, see below.

Rael wrote:

3. What is it like to work there, if there's anyone here that can answer the question?

Most of the new high-tech work is done by Accenture. Ditto for project-management. I'm not sure what an AO would do there. Maybe some filing. The chances of of existing staff happily training you in IT/Analyst work would be about the same as a turkey voting for Christmas.

Rael wrote:

4. Whats the feeling and likelihood of the decentralisation of Revenue actually taking place? I'm a Dub at heart and would like to stay home but the pay increase would be substantial

It's government policy and FF/PD look likely to get re-elected. Kildare is an important consituency. Tom Parlon is very anxious to demolish the computer centre so he can build a huge office block on the site.

The_Conductor · 06-11-2006 11:42PM

Strictly speaking under Towards 2016 we are supposed to have full cross-streaming of promotional posts, so in theory you would be able to go for an admin AP post, if and when they came up (unlikely to be for a while). We are now recruiting at up to PO level externally though- so the opportunities of the past, are unfortunately in the past (all internal promotions are subject to the same competition rules as the external competitions are- unlike in the past where term of tenure was often a deciding factor).

I was talking to Personnel in Revenue with similar questions myself (I was trying to go in as EO ICT with a stab at the external AO ICT competition when they call the first batch to interview in 2-3 weeks time). I was told that certain areas would be far more amenable to transfers out of IT than others (the Audit Section being sold as a good possibility). Its a mute point in my case, as my own Department have refused to release me- roll on the AO interviews......

Speaking of the AO ICT Revenue positions- does anyone have any idea what to expect in the presentation part of the interview. I did the AO Finance Officer but was told there would be a very different presentation for this one?

Cheers,

Shane

very miffed dub · 08-11-2006 01:29AM

Update

I jumped rather than wait on the 'TITANIC' to sink because the stress it was causing was unbearable. I got an internal transfer and started in another section in the same Department on Monday. This section is also due to decentralise in 2009 or thereabouts. Hopefully Decentralisation will be dead in the water by this time.

I will not go through all this again. The unions are a complete waste of time. I'm cancelling my membership of the PSEU this week.

I would rather be working in my old section but I am now stuck in a section I don't want to be in because of the STUPID politicians.

I'm going to give it a few months and weigh up all the pros and cons before deciding whether to abandon the Civil Service forever.

Thank you Fianna Fáil for screwing up my life and my families lives for the last three years!!!!

Thanks for letting me rant

A Very MIFFED Dub

Decentralisation

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