How to peacefully defeat the USA

pvt. joker · 04-10-2006 07:41PM

EOA_Mushy wrote:

It does not work.

Do all who disagree so adamantly also fully support the American invasions of Afghanistan, Iraq etc...

Do you care about these countries people who are not only below the poverty line but now also have lost their limbs, children & homes?

The people of a country are, meant to be, the voice of the countries actions. If America commits these atrocities then their people are to blame. They vote.

Which brings me back to my original point -> It does not work

[edit...] One other thing, you who see these college students to be iggnorant are simply weak having given up even the idea that some thing you do could posibly change some thing that you all ready know to be b0llox.

you are aware that saddam hussein killed more than 2 million people during his reign correct? you are also aware that the taliban killed even more than that when they took over afghanistan correct? the US could have just carpet bombed both countries had the intentionss they had been completely of an evil nature. But no, we put troops on the ground and attempted to get rid of the problem and give the countries back to the people at the cost of over 3000 soldiers so far.

so the question is, would you rather have some collateral damage ie women and children STILL living in and among insurgents getting killed OR would you rather have a religious intolerant dictatorship ruling by fear and killing/raping/stealing at will. The ignorance of your post is astounding in that you apparently get most of your information from al-jazeera and americasucks.com. It's one thing to have an argument and an opinion, but spouting nonsense like you did is revolting and typical of someone who literally has no clue other than "america bad"

Collie D · 04-10-2006 07:58PM

EOA_Mushy wrote:

The people of a country are, meant to be, the voice of the countries actions. If America commits these atrocities then their people are to blame. They vote.

So by that rationale, me and every other Irish person is responsible for the PD's being in government here?

DublinWriter · 04-10-2006 08:00PM

slipss wrote:

Next the democratically elected president of Venezuala (founder and chairman of OPEC) calls an OPEC meeting and proposes that all OPEC nations follow suit and change all their international oil trade to Euro instead of Dollars.

Well spotted, go to the head of the class.

This was the real genesis of the current crusade in Iraq.

Have you seen the documentary made by the two-Irish guys who where actually there when what looked like a US-backed Coup failed to topple Chavez? It's one of the most stunning pieces of political documentary ever and has won numerous international awards.

The US couldn't directly kick Venezuala's butt, so they went after their weakest ally in their motion to switch OPEC's trading currency from US Dollars to Euros - Iraq.

Chavez is a very clever man, don't discount either him or Venezuala, he hasn't gone away you know...

EOA_Mushy · 04-10-2006 08:08PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Given this argument, does this mean that Californians may be excluded from your broadsweeping general crique of "American voters?" Did you know that California, the largest state in population, cast their electoral votes against Bush in both presidental elections, 2000 and 2004? All US Americans are not the same (just like all Irish are not the same), and all do not support the illegal war. To suggest otherwise is to make a broad sweeping generalisation that has no validity or reliability in real life.

Yet Irish pass ports would have a warning such as the americans if we continue to have their planes in shannon.... You see to be unsure of your position.

The jews were a minority with in a country, if the general american nation decided to eradicate the blacks again then it would be similar to germany. OR If the jews decided to invade iraq....

Collie D · 04-10-2006 08:12PM

EOA_Mushy wrote:

Yet Irish pass ports would have a warning such as the americans if we continue to have their planes in shannon.... You see to be unsure of your position.

The jews were a minority with in a country, if the general american nation decided to eradicate the blacks again then it would be similar to germany. OR If the jews decided to invade iraq....

What are you on about....?

EOA_Mushy · 04-10-2006 08:17PM

pvt. joker wrote:

you are aware that saddam hussein killed more than 2 million people during his reign correct? you are also aware that the taliban killed even more than that when they took over afghanistan correct? the US could have just carpet bombed both countries had the intentionss they had been completely of an evil nature. But no, we put troops on the ground and attempted to get rid of the problem and give the countries back to the people at the cost of over 3000 soldiers so far.

so the question is, would you rather have some collateral damage ie women and children STILL living in and among insurgents getting killed OR would you rather have a religious intolerant dictatorship ruling by fear and killing/raping/stealing at will. The ignorance of your post is astounding in that you apparently get most of your information from al-jazeera and americasucks.com. It's one thing to have an argument and an opinion, but spouting nonsense like you did is revolting and typical of someone who literally has no clue other than "america bad"

Please do not rant at me or attempt to insult me.

People who live on a level of fear such as you describe will eventualy be forced to do some thing about it them selfs. = most revolutions.

Realising an oppertunity in another countries strife and capatlizing on it does not make a hero.

If your people joined your army only to later realise their folly at a later stage it only means that your government USES its less intellegent citizens for its capital gain again.

EOA_Mushy · 04-10-2006 08:22PM

Collie D wrote:

What are you on about....?

Read the thread.....

Oh and you post 2 or 3 above... What type of government do we have??? i.e. YES.

Collie D · 04-10-2006 08:26PM

EOA_Mushy wrote:

Read the thread.....

Oh and you post 2 or 3 above... What type of government do we have??? i.e. YES.

I did read the thread and it sounds like a load of paranoid rubbish TBH

coyote6 · 04-10-2006 08:44PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Yes, I wish that I could get Guinness made at St James Gate delivered in So Cal rather than that poor excuse they have licensed out to Canadian brewers and export to the States. But tell me this, if USA has not successfully invaded Ireland, how can you explain all the long necks I keep seeing in Dub pubs with that cheap, mass processed watery Bud swill? Yuk!

I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would want to drink a "Bud" longneck whilst living so close to "the fount" of Guinness. Now THAT'S something to be paranoid about. Definitely mind control going on. Bud tastes like the urine of a diseased cat. And you're right the USA Guinness is a bit peculiar... but still better than Budweiser.

slipss · 04-10-2006 09:24PM

DublinWriter wrote:

Well spotted, go to the head of the class.

This was the real genesis of the current crusade in Iraq.

Have you seen the documentary made by the two-Irish guys who where actually there when what looked like a US-backed Coup failed to topple Chavez? It's one of the most stunning pieces of political documentary ever and has won numerous international awards.

The US couldn't directly kick Venezuala's butt, so they went after their weakest ally in their motion to switch OPEC's trading currency from US Dollars to Euros - Iraq.

Chavez is a very clever man, don't discount either him or Venezuala, he hasn't gone away you know...

No I haven't seen it, any chance you remember the name of the documentary Writer? Sounds interesting. And yeah I have to agree with you, Hugo Chavez is a very clever man, and not only that he's by far one of the greatest leaders in the world right now. the differnece he's made to the country in just seven or eight years is remarkable. great man, if theres a nobel prize for politics he should win hands down, puts the gob****es running Ireland and the USA to shame.

daveirl · 04-10-2006 09:54PM

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slipss · 04-10-2006 10:01PM

I fail to see Chavez's abuses, full stop, can you provide citations? Have you ever seen any reports or eveidence that Chavez "allows" human rights violations?? And you can't really compare the job of running one of the largest economically and miltarily powerfull nations in the world (USA) with running Venezeula(sc). Please elaborate.

daveirl · 04-10-2006 10:12PM

This post has been deleted.

pvt. joker · 04-10-2006 10:16PM

EOA_Mushy wrote:

Please do not rant at me or attempt to insult me.

People who live on a level of fear such as you describe will eventualy be forced to do some thing about it them selfs. = most revolutions.

Realising an oppertunity in another countries strife and capatlizing on it does not make a hero.

If your people joined your army only to later realise their folly at a later stage it only means that your government USES its less intellegent citizens for its capital gain again.

I'm responding to your misinformed, ignorant rant. And maybe you forget about a little famine 150 years ago where the same intervening country took in almost 2 million irish immigrants. Maybe we should have just let things "sort themsevles out" back then too...kind of like the english did as they watched you all die.

as for capitalizing on others strife, once again an ignorant comment. Apparently americans are all bathing in the oil of iraq right now, even though the price of gas has gone from $1.50 a gallon in 2001 to over $3 (fallen back down to $2.50 in the past month).

as for soldiers, it's voluntary. Try to find a documentary called "combat diaries, the story of lima company" for a FACTUAL description of what has happened over there. Not the BS that the BBC feeds you.

pvt. joker · 04-10-2006 10:17PM

EOA_Mushy wrote:

Yet Irish pass ports would have a warning such as the americans if we continue to have their planes in shannon.... You see to be unsure of your position.

The jews were a minority with in a country, if the general american nation decided to eradicate the blacks again then it would be similar to germany. OR If the jews decided to invade iraq....

i didn't know america tried to erradicate the blacks a first time. you're officially in the tin foil hat club now

emeraldstar · 04-10-2006 10:35PM

Killaqueen!!! wrote:

It could work but...what about the fine programmes on ABC like Lost and Prison Break and Desperate Housewives. We wouldn't be getting them thanks to the crazy Americans. And I am not boycotting the US if it means we'll lose great tv.

Agreed!! (substitute Prison Break for The Simpsons and ER though) and also, BEN AND JERRY'S!!!!!!

slipss · 04-10-2006 10:57PM

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

First of I'm not saying that Chavez is good inncarnate, but he has done far more good than harm in a very difficult situation, in Venezuela and abroad. Now concerning the Human rites watch report you linked too.

Freedom of Expression
"The Law of Social Responsibility in Radio and Television, approved by the National Assembly in December 2004, establishes detailed regulations for the content of television and radio programs. For example, stations deemed to “condone or incite” public disturbances or publish messages “contrary to the security of the nation” are subject to heavy fines and can be ordered to suspend broadcasting for seventy-two hours;"

This step was taken in a nation that has seen many violent riots before and since Chavez came to power, and has been on the verge of civil war more than once. There are laws throught the western world concerning the illegality of condoning or inciting violence, this would appear on the surface to be just an extention of them, although the non-clarity of the law is below bar by developed international standards.

Police Killings
This has been a problem in the nation since long before Chavez came to power and as such the police force is made up of many of the same corrupt officers and form of policing. As you will see in the same paragraph the courts are interveening and are prosecuting offenders.

Prison Conditions
I see nothing in that report to suggest the prison system in Venezeula is any worse than many of prisons globally and is far better than a lot.

Border Security and the Right to Refugee Status
This would seem to suggest quite the oppisite to human rights violations.

Human Rights Defenders and Civil Society
I can't comment on the individuall cases mentioned because I don't know the backround. Some do appear to be violations of human rights if taken at face value, but this is in a country that only recently survived an American backed, possibly orchestrated coup, you can understand why the gouvernment might be wary of groups excepting funding from the US, in particularly when its the NED. It's not unheard of for the US to back humanitarian groups that wish to see a regime change in the nation while blanking pro gouvernment and unalligned humanitarian groups to further thier own ends.

Having said that I do obviously deplore any human rights violations that occur in Venezeuala but still haven't seen anything published by the HRW or any other source to suggest Chavez is actively encouraging them or enabling them.

but in anyways this is all way way off topic, I believe we were discussing a trade embargo on Cork or something along those lines.

Kaiser_Sma · 05-10-2006 12:55AM

Cork Boy wrote:

Ok I admit I went a bit overboard with the whole recession thing. The basic point I'm trying to make is that why should we pour money into companies who fund Bush's illegal wars?

Bush's wars aren't illeagal they were made legit by the UN, albeit after the fact.

The more important thing here is that an impoverished america is a potentially more nationalistic and dangerous america. The EU IS dependent on trade with the US, and the US which could potentially seize a large part of the middle easts oil reserves, is less dependent on the middle east then we are.

Diogenes · 05-10-2006 01:24AM

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Actually if you look at the documentary by two irish filmakers
The revolution will be televised ( a documentary that incidently has won just about every international award (inculding amnesty int. awards) and furthermore has had juries at major international festivals recieve threats, if they voted for it). In the film you can watch the coup leaders disband the supreme court, the ombudsman man, the atourney general, the senate the consitution, and in fact any body that challenges the body of president. Therefore proving Chavez had checks and balances and the coup leaders moved quickly to void them.

yeah chavez the brutal dictator. I like the way said dictator was held captive and tens of tens of thousands of people rose up and demanded his reinstation in the face of a miltary junta. Oh yeah that sounds like an evil dictator.

People ****ing hate Bush buy yammer on about how great Chavez is. Both of them allow abuses of Human Rights, I fail to see how you can decide Chavez's abuses are ok.

Perhaps you could list Chavez's abuses off, and we can compare them to Bush's. For giggles.

daveirl · 05-10-2006 12:02PM

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Diogenes · 05-10-2006 01:55PM

daveirl wrote:

This post has been deleted.

Chavez has abolished the death penalty, ratified the international criminal court, and the UN Women's convention.

Care to point out where it the Amnesty report it says "Chavez rules through torturing politcal opponents?"

Yes he has imprisoned political opponents, political opponents, who commited a violent junta to have him removed from power. I think you'll find that it's acceptable in any democracy to arrest people who try to remove the democraticaly elected leader of the country, through use of force.

I never said previous administrations there were better or that future ones would be. I simply pointed out that it's an extremely flawed country.

Agreed, much of the violence and death at pro or anti Chavez rallies stemps from the fact that most of the country goes around armed at all times.

It's pathetic that people want to get involved in a pissing contest about which world leader is worse. All I did was point out that it's far less than perfect. To see him feted as a great man is insane.

Improved healthcare, improved education standards, oil wealth that flowed only to a powerful elite, and mulitnationals is being funneled to the people.

Plenty of Zimbabwians are extremely happy with Mugabe, doesn't mean I think that's right.

You're comparing Chavez to Mugabe? Seriously?

I'm not saying Bush is a great leader.

I'm not saying Chavez isn't a perfect leader. But to claim he "rules by torture and imprisoning political opponents" is simply a lie.

exiztone · 05-10-2006 02:51PM

Feel bad for the op, his heart was in the right place

pvt. joker · 05-10-2006 02:56PM

Oh, now we're defending Chavez and burning Bush at the stake. I love how the term "ignorant american" gets thrown around on this board, yet you guys come up with gems like this.

Diogenes · 05-10-2006 03:44PM

pvt. joker wrote:

Oh, now we're defending Chavez and burning Bush at the stake. I love how the term "ignorant american" gets thrown around on this board, yet you guys come up with gems like this.

Wow what an utter non sequter. Or are you claiming that anyone who thinks anything other than the US government line on Chavez is "ignorant"?

Chavez at the UN last month wrote:

Yesterday, the secretary general practically gave us his speech of farewell. And he recognized that over the last 10 years, things have just gotten more complicated; hunger, poverty, violence, human rights violations have just worsened. That is the tremendous consequence of the collapse of the United Nations system and American hegemonistic pretensions.

Madam, Venezuela a few years ago decided to wage this battle within the United Nations by recognizing the United Nations, as members of it that we are, and lending it our voice, our thinking.

Our voice is an independent voice to represent the dignity and the search for peace and the reformulation of the international system; to denounce persecution and aggression of hegemonistic forces on the planet.

if you forgive the colourful idioms at the start this is an intelligent impassionate speech.

The text in full
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0920-22.htm

pvt. joker · 05-10-2006 07:19PM

Diogenes wrote:

Wow what an utter non sequter. Or are you claiming that anyone who thinks anything other than the US government line on Chavez is "ignorant"?

if you forgive the colourful idioms at the start this is an intelligent impassionate speech.

The text in full
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0920-22.htm

apparently you only pay attention to the nonsense that appears on the BBC, since it's widely known the Chavez's presidency was almost recalled (shot down by 60% vote against and it still disputed as being fradulent). And at the present moment he is trying to amend the constitution to allow himself another 12 year stint in office. Now if he is such an outrageously great leader for Venezuela then why would 40% of the people that voted want him out? And that's assuming the results weren't fradulent.

You just see him denouncing the US and that on paper he changed venezuela for the better (of which there is no real proof)

and as for the "intelligent, impassionate speech" as you refer to it. It is being viewed as an embarrassment to himself and his country. And was viewed as a bad move even by his supporters. How exactly does speaking to the UN with these comments convey intelligence? ....

"the devil came here yesterday, and it smells of sulfur still today, this table that I am now standing in front of. Yesterday, ladies and gentlemen, from this rostrum, the president of the United States, the gentleman to whom I refer as the devil, came here, talking as if he owned the world."

Diogenes · 05-10-2006 07:58PM

pvt. joker wrote:

apparently you only pay attention to the nonsense that appears on the BBC,

Yes the BBC bastion of communist left wing propaganda.:rolleyes:

since it's widely known the Chavez's presidency was almost recalled (shot down by 60% vote against and it still disputed as being fradulent).

Hmmm seeing as the people who declared it fraquent then proceeded to launch a coup againist Chavez a few months later.

I suggest you watch The revolution will not be televised an aclaimed documentary by two Irish filmakers who happened to be in the Presidental Palace before during and after the coup.

A particular notworthy scene is the unelected junta cheering as they disband just about every democratic checkpoint in Venezulan politics, the supreme court, the constitution, the office of ombudsman, the senate.

Or how the privately owned TV stations edited news footage to show Chavez supporters firing at crowds, when in fact they were shooting at snipers across empty streets. Or how when the tens of thousands took to the streets defying a curfew, the privately owned tv stations refused to report it and instead showed a Julie Roberts movie.

And at the present moment he is trying to amend the constitution to allow himself another 12 year stint in office.

Look I'm not saying the guy is perfect but there is enormous pressure from the US for example to see him thrown from power.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1148

The US is pumping millions into Venezuelan opposition groups. Do you really think its' acceptable for the US to interfer with the democratic process of another state?

So with the playing field stacked aganist him, with the US and oil multinationals funding the opposition aganist him, you don't think he needs more time to make his reforms happen?

Oh and thats just the opposition we're aware of need I remind you of the CIA's track record in the region?

Now if he is such an outrageously great leader for Venezuela then why would 40% of the people that voted want him out?

He's an outrageously contraversal leader no doubt. Time will tell if he's a great leader, I suggest you stop shoving words into my mouth. He's making radical sweeping changes that are upsetting the status quo, of course he'll face opposition, but he won the election, he won the the refferendum, and the coup aganist him was overthrown by a massive spontaneous public demostration. What more do you want?

And that's assuming the results weren't fradulent.

Ah and the aside that he rigged the election. Hey, news flash both sides are making that claim about the other. And both have some merit. However the man is enormously popular, you cannot rig a popular uprising to see you reinstated after a coup though can you.

You just see him denouncing the US and that on paper he changed venezuela for the better (of which there is no real proof)

So "on paper" is out. Okay so how exactly do you demostrate how Venezuela is improving? The booming growth in the first quarter of 2005? The 13,000 extra doctors sent from Cuba as part of a trade deal?
Or the fact that the country is improving despite the oil companies allowed their workers to strike while on full pay to cripple the economy for nearly a year.

and as for the "intelligent, impassionate speech" as you refer to it. It is being viewed as an embarrassment to himself and his country. And was viewed as a bad move even by his supporters. How exactly does speaking to the UN with these comments convey intelligence? ....
"

I said colourful opening, the speech didn't go down that bad seeing as Chomsky's book skyrocketed as Amazon's biggest seller without hours.

If you look past the opening passage he goes down and argues for an expanded security council one with teeth, that can stop the US's hedgemony, and stop the US vetoing, say for example the motion to condemn Israeli's invasion of Lebannon this summer.

slipss · 06-10-2006 01:40AM

Lol this still gowing on? listen as with 99% of debates in after hours this could go on forever. The key to good mediation however is finding a common ground that both sides can agree on and going from there.

<snippety>

Souness · 11-10-2006 11:07PM

Originally Posted by pvt. joker
I'm responding to your misinformed, ignorant rant. And maybe you forget about a little famine 150 years ago where the same intervening country took in almost 2 million irish immigrants. Maybe we should have just let things "sort themsevles out" back then too...kind of like the english did as they watched you all die.

as for capitalizing on others strife, once again an ignorant comment. Apparently americans are all bathing in the oil of iraq right now, even though the price of gas has gone from $1.50 a gallon in 2001 to over $3 (fallen back down to $2.50 in the past month).

as for soldiers, it's voluntary. Try to find a documentary called "combat diaries, the story of lima company" for a FACTUAL description of what has happened over there. Not the BS that the BBC feeds you.

What?? Get your head out of your ass!

Karoma · 11-10-2006 11:09PM

Souness wrote:

What?? Get your head out of your ass!

Careful now. ¬_¬

slipss · 12-10-2006 01:41AM

slipss wrote:

Lol this still gowing on? listen as with 99% of debates in after hours this could go on forever. The key to good mediation however is finding a common ground that both sides can agree on and going from there.

<snippety>

snippety? whats that all about? Ah c'mon now, who did that, and why?

How to peacefully defeat the USA

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