DTT Channel Speculation

slicedpanman · 29-08-2006 09:25AM #1

Now that there are a fair few people out there receiving RTE1, RTE2, TV3 + TG4 (as well as the 5 radio stations) and the initial trial is well and truly up and running... I was wondering does anyone have any ideas what other channels might or will be added to the line up for the start if official 1000 person trial?

Would it be safe to assume that other "Irish" channels like Channel 6, The Dublin Channel and possibly Setanta will be included?

A longer shot (I know that the legalities have been discussed in other threads in here) would be the BBC, ITV, Ch4, Ch5 channels.... it would be nice though.

watty · 29-08-2006 10:15AM

What ever costs nothing to the operators as no-one can make money out of this and AFAIK the DMCR who is the trial sponser is only paying for the HW, not any content.

slicedpanman · 29-08-2006 10:39AM

watty wrote:

What ever costs nothing to the operators as no-one can make money out of this and AFAIK the DMCR who is the trial sponser is only paying for the HW, not any content.

Watty, does that mean, in reality, we shouldn't expect any more channels that are there currently? And that it will be quite a while before we ever see any interactive content?

bk · 29-08-2006 05:50PM

slicedpanman wrote:

Watty, does that mean, in reality, we shouldn't expect any more channels that are there currently? And that it will be quite a while before we ever see any interactive content?

Well I expect that C6, City Channel and Setanta will all want to be on it from the start, so that they can position themselves on the service from the start.

UTV might like to follow suit, but that depends on the legal tangles with TV3.

watty · 29-08-2006 06:21PM

slicedpanman wrote:

Watty, does that mean, in reality, we shouldn't expect any more channels that are there currently? And that it will be quite a while before we ever see any interactive content?

No. It means that what will happen won't be expensive.

slicedpanman · 30-08-2006 09:58AM

I guess that (as one Mr. Rose once said) "all we need is just a little patience"...

We wait and see what happens, unless there is some insider from any of those channels reading the board who would like to pass on some info?

watty · 30-08-2006 10:45AM

My info is that it isn't quite decided yet. Various companies have mad proposals to provide content and be the Content manager. IMO, some of these are "off the wall". I'd guess only DMCR knows what is happening next, and given the bigger plan (there isn't one) and that they seem to be making this up as they go along, I'd further guess they won't know what is happening till they decide it.

Tom Dunne · 30-08-2006 12:40PM

Bear in mind that the 1000 users are probably not techies like we have here on Boards.ie, so if all they are given are the basic four channels, they might not be too enthusiastic about it.

They probably wouldn't see the point in buying yet another STB after the trial unless there was something to draw them away from NTL/Sky (apart from the price).

slicedpanman · 30-08-2006 05:23PM

tom dunne wrote:

Bear in mind that the 1000 users are probably not techies like we have here on Boards.ie, so if all they are given are the basic four channels, they might not be too enthusiastic about it.

They probably wouldn't see the point in buying yet another STB after the trial unless there was something to draw them away from NTL/Sky (apart from the price).

Excellent point Mr.Dunne

we'll just wait and see if something happens

Foggy43 · 30-08-2006 06:38PM

I see the point Tom is making but I am wondering about the people who will only want the basic Irish terresrtial channels. Will they get what they want?

I can only presume what will be offererd will be the same as the providing company Freeview do here in the UK and give a subscription free package of the 5 terrestrials and FTA's but other channels availale on subscription.
We on this forum understand the 'hidden' costs of set top box or new TV with tuner installed and possible external aerial installation.

Who is behind the trials at the moment? Who is paying for it? Would I be right in thinking that RTE will have their own Mux providing all their TV and audio channels, but another company providing the service or transmitting it.

Isn't it a case that in 6 years time someone will have to provide the basics.

flogen · 30-08-2006 06:56PM

I'd say the three other Irish channels will be made available; although they're not allowed profit from it (just cover costs) so I wonder how this would effect the way they advertise etc. saying that I don't think Setanta, C6 or City are making money from their regular operations yet anyway.

Other than that the only extra things I'd expect would be RTÉ dipping its toe in interactivity, no one would bother creating a new channel for a temporary service that they can't profit off... they'd just wait until they can be sure the DTT service will go national and be permanent at a later date.

Elmo · 30-08-2006 07:08PM

I don't see why C6, Setanta and City Channel aren't provide now.

Perhaps Bubble Hits.

Since DTT must be rolled out it is stuipid to put strong british channels on an Irish service it would only mean that what ever little Irish programming is produced would futher be reduced. The DTT project cann't fail as it MUST happen, and it would not be used to draw people away from sky or UPC since it all of the channels available FTA would have to be provide on UPC (not sky since it is not regulated in this country, but then sky Ireland would be competing with UPC and Magnet that would show the Irish FTA and Foreign TV channels..... SKY would have to provide what the competition is providing).

We need at least 5 strong irish companies providing free to air services in this state for an Irish Audience.

RTE, TV3 and TG4 and two other companies.

Test of course should be decentralised I would assume that Dublin and Louth are quiet well covered. What about the west?

watty · 30-08-2006 09:04PM

The 1000 tiral users get a free MPEG4 DTT box.

rogue-entity · 01-09-2006 06:52PM

In order for DTT to be a success they have to be able to undercut Sky and NTL's prices for their basic packages. There are no two ways about it. If they can provide the following channels for free:
RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4
BBC 1, BBC 2, BBC 3, BBC 4, CBBC, CBeebies, BBC News 24
UTV, ITV2, ITV3, ITV4, CITV
Channel 4, Film4 et al
Sky News.

And then for €5/mnth, the "pay" channels on NTL's Go Digi lineup. These being a selection of Sky's family pack including Sky One.

Then they will take off, I mean, a lot of people that I know with NTL, only go with NTL because they want to get channels like UTV, Channel 4 and Sky One. If they could get the same channels for next-to nothing, then I am certain they would see the logic in buying another STB for a once off to get most of the same channels for nothing, and then they can pay for the others. It would still be cheaper and easier then going for Sky.

And as bandwidth will be available, nothing stopping the same PayTV operator from providing Sky Sports and Sky Movies too.

byte · 01-09-2006 07:29PM

I'd doubt very much that there will be a paytv service for €5 per month. Looking at TopUpTV as an example, they charge UK£9.99 for the few channels that they have, so I'd imagine €10 or €15 per month would be a possible price to pay. Even at that, it wouldn't be too bad, depending on what you get of course!

I also would doubt very much that we'd get all BBC and ITV digital channels. To be fair, I'd say if we got the 4/5 main terrestrial UK channels, many would be happy with that.

I do think that it should carry as much Irish content as possible, as most UK stuff can be got via FTA satellite/Sky anyway.

Elmo · 01-09-2006 08:40PM

In order for DTT to be a success

Again to point out that Digital has to happen, therefore it is not a case of success or failure.

We need a strong Irish FTA service that will be available on all platforms (DTT, UCP, SKY and magnet), the pay services can then provide the Irish FTA services plus the british FTA services and then some cable services.

If a company can set up a FTA box with the option for Pay service then they should be allow start that up.

Is Terrestrial analogue TV a success? Digital will have to take over from this service in the coming years, that would mean 200k homes with DTT in Ireland.

rogue-entity · 02-09-2006 12:25AM

@byte: NTL analogue is ~€18.50, not including additional TV points. Skys basic package is ~€21, NTL Go Digi Basic is €18.50 + €15 which is still more then Sky. A DTT payTV system would work if they charged €10 or less.
DTT certainly wont take off if it doesnt provide at the very least:
RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4, BBC 1, BBC 2, UTV and CH4. These can all be gotten free via analogue deflectors and FTA sattelite so there is no point in getting a DTT box if you dont need it.

@elmo: I would hope that we do get an MPEG-4 DTT service soon enough. UPC certainly could do an FTA service and so could Sky but I dont think they would unless DTT starts to pull a good porportion of customers away from them. DTT will need in addition to the basic "ariel" channels a payTV service that will provide the main channels that you get on Sky and UPC's digital services for less than what you would pay with Sky or UPC.

Ideally, UPC and Sky would provide an FTA package much like Sky does in the UK already. Basically the two companies would sell the gear needed to receive their service and a selection of free channels, with the pay channels showing on the EPG, to encourage people to subscribe. UPC could do this when they drop their analogue service and upgrade people to their basic digi pack.

byte · 02-09-2006 12:36AM

Firstly, RTE1, RTE2, TV3, TG4 and Channel 4 are not free on FTA satellite.

Also, I believe if there were to be pay-tv channels on the DTT platform, I can't see where there will be any profit charging €10 or less.

As for DTT taking off, I can't see how it won't. People who rely on terrestrial transmissions (yes, these people still exist) will have no choice once the analogue signals are turned off. Not forgetting people who may want DTT boxes for other rooms not covered by Sky and cableco's.

As for UPC introducing a FTA package, I'd find it highly unlikely.

Elmo · 02-09-2006 12:40AM

Again I am wonder has terrestrial analogue taken off? DTT will have to replace terrestiral analogue TV.

The 200,000 who don't have the other channels won't be presudaded to get Digital because they can now get free Foreign channels rather those people will just change to Digital tv when analogue become extinct. I don't think UPC or Sky want DTT pinching customers from them and neither will RTE, TV3, TG4, C6, Setanta, City Channel want to give up advertising revenues to Foreign Broadcastors, and the BCC and BCI and the government would have no control over these stations IE advertising standards, programming committments.

So the following organisations would not want Freeview channels on Irelands DTT service (which MUST be rolled out regardless of success)

UPC
Magnet
Sky
RTE
TV3
TG4
Setanta
C6
City Channel
BCC
BCI
The Government
Advertising Standards Association Of Ireland
and other companies wanting to enter the market.

That's one well paid lobby group.

byte · 02-09-2006 12:59AM

Well, it's going to be a pretty poor DTT service then.

It shouldn't be about what Sky et al want, but more what the country population want. Quite frankly, I couldn't care less about what Sky, UPC, etc want.

Why do some think City Channel be on DTT if it is aimed primarily at Dublin? Hardly warrants national coverage.

leche solara · 02-09-2006 01:05AM

I think you've hit the nail on the head

Elmo · 02-09-2006 10:26AM

Why do some think City Channel be on DTT if it is aimed primarily at Dublin? Hardly warrants national coverage.

City Channel might want to get access to country areas be providing other local channels on a national basis. City Channel is now available in Waterford and Galway and plans to provide more coverage to those cities.

Well, it's going to be a pretty poor DTT service then.

RTE, TV3, TG4, Setanta, C6, city channel and maybe Bubble Hits would all get new TV channels.

DTT is a FTA service it isn't their to provide TV stations that have no regulations and requirements access to another country with different laws.

It shouldn't be about what Sky et al want, but more what the country population want.

If you want the other channels et al then go out a pay for them just like you have always done, if thats what you want. Independent Irish channels have a hard enough time competing without adding to it with more unregulated competition. Why would anyone want to set up a TV station when people just watch british TV. All of the extra Irish DTT will be available on Sky, UPC etc by law. You want them to let go of their customer base?

Mossy Monk · 02-09-2006 12:10PM

Elmo wrote:

DTT is a FTA service

so it's been confirmed then that DTT in Ireland will be FTA and not provide any pay tv?

Elmo · 02-09-2006 02:03PM

so it's been confirmed then that DTT in Ireland will be FTA and not provide any pay tv?

I am sure DTT Ireland could provide some pay tv services which would give viewers access to Foreign channels and PPV events etc.

But the FTA service would have to be there to provide Irish companies with air space first and fore most IMO.

rogue-entity · 02-09-2006 02:43PM

@elmo: The groups of TV viewers in this country break down roughly like this:
Those with only analogue (RTE and BBC/ITV/CH4)
Those with Sky and analogue or Sky Only (RTE and BBC/ITV)
Those with Cable TV (RTE and BBC/ITV/CH4)

At home, we have NTL's digital service in one room and basic cable in every other. The one channel the mother watches most is UTV, for the soaps. The one channel I watch is Sky One for the Sci Fi.

Why would we buy a DTT box, if we dont need it, what is it offering us in return for our money that we dont already get. We pay say €21/mnth for ONE TV point which we need anyway for our basic digital package, and we just send the analogue around the house for free multiroom. We get the channels we want free in other rooms. DTT with just the Irish channels (RTE, Setanta, C6) is of no incentive to us when we also get Sky One, Discovery, Ch4, UTV, BBC etc free in all the rooms of our house.
Now, if there were people who had Sky in only one room and basic analogue in others, then yes, there is an incentive as they will have to upgrade anyway or lose the channels in the other rooms. Likewise for anyone who has only analogue services and no sattelite, the will have no choice, but no doubt those who dont have Cable TV may be pissed off with the loss of CH4 and those who dont have Cable or Sattelite will be pissed off with the loss of the british channels altogether.

It is also possible that because of the lack of BBC/CH4/ITV (for free) on DTT will encourage people to find ways to deflect Freeview leading to a digital version of todays situation.

Elmo · 02-09-2006 04:51PM

You will find that many people who use an indoor arial only get RTE One, RTE Two, TG4 and TV3.

Some don't even get TG4 and TV3.

You do not pick up UTV, BBC1, 2 or S4C from RTE's network that is spill over from the UK, the government have no control over that fact the some people may or may not get UTV BBC 1 BBC 2 and C4.

The TV providers in Ireland won't let it happen. ITV don't even want UTV on NTL and even now with the sale of TV3 they still don't want UTV in the ROI.

Those with only analogue (RTE and BBC/ITV/CH4)
Those with Sky and analogue or Sky Only (RTE and BBC/ITV)
Those with Cable TV (RTE and BBC/ITV/CH4)

What type of groups are those?

If you have analogue you get RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3 and TG4 (at least that should be the case but over spill from the UK occurs, PLUS bad reception for TV3 and TG4)
If you have sky you get RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4 and bubblehits plus all of the british TV channels (excluding C4, Five and ITV?)
If you have UPC you get RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3, TG4, CITY(DIGITAL ONLY and exNTL currently), C6, Setanta (exNTL currently) and all of the british channels ex FIVE.

Note that TV3 and TG4 are not RTE and TV3 and RTE show all of the soap that your mother watches. :rolleyes:

Also I am assuming that Digital TV sets will be sold in the future.

Are HD TVs ready for DTT? If you have a HD TV do you just automatical get a Digital TV service if it is available without the need for a set top box?

byte · 02-09-2006 05:34PM

Elmo wrote:

RTE, TV3, TG4, Setanta, C6, city channel and maybe Bubble Hits would all get new TV channels.

Only if they choose to do so and have the funding. Is Bubble Hits not broadcast and licensed from UK? If so, technically a UK channel.

DTT is a FTA service it isn't their to provide TV stations that have no regulations and requirements access to another country with different laws.

Why not? It didn't stop RTE introducing them (NI channels) in Dublin all those years ago albeit not free.

If you want the other channels et al then go out a pay for them just like you have always done, if thats what you want. Independent Irish channels have a hard enough time competing without adding to it with more unregulated competition. Why would anyone want to set up a TV station when people just watch british TV. All of the extra Irish DTT will be available on Sky, UPC etc by law. You want them to let go of their customer base?

Where did I say that we'd get pay-tv channels free? Also, how can you be sure that the extra Irish DTT channels will also be on Sky? Have you inside information? Surely having extra Irish channels on DTT and not Sky (or UPC for that matter) would help push DTT.

Elmo · 02-09-2006 05:42PM

Where did I say that we'd get pay-tv channels free? Also, how can you be sure that the extra Irish DTT channels will also be on Sky? Have you inside information? Surely having extra Irish channels on DTT and not Sky (or UPC for that matter) would help push DTT.

It's not a case of actually having to puch DTT since it is a requirement that Digital takesover from Analogue. e.g. UK: in 2010 if it goes to schedule Analogue will be stopped and BBC1, 2, ITV, C4 and five will only be available on digital and then people will have to take on digital TV. Dixons have stopped selling FM radios in its shops in the UK as digital becomes a standard.

UPC are required to carry RTE 1, RTE 2, TV3 and TG4 by law. I can only speculate that newer Irish DTT services will also have to be broadcast by UPC and other Irish cable networks.

I mention bubblehits as it is an Irish venture which could be given an Irish licence by the BCI for DTT.

As for sky they took on RTE, TV3 and TG4 to provide something Irish it keeps the government quite and the punters happy since Sky have only started to show the ITV channels.

watty · 02-09-2006 05:47PM

Elmo wrote:

You will find that many people who use an indoor arial only get RTE One, RTE Two, TG4 and TV3.

Some don't even get TG4 and TV3.
<snip>
Also I am assuming that Digital TV sets will be sold in the future.

Are HD TVs ready for DTT? If you have a HD TV do you just automatical get a Digital TV service if it is available without the need for a set top box?

The same HD TV sold in UK has Analog and DTT tuner and maybe a Sat tuner too. But in Ireland only an Analog Tuner.

In UK they are talking about BANNING all analogue tuners. As they now have 100% digital coverage (95% on DTT) and are turning off Analogue in phased areas over the next 6 years. Netherland turns off Analogue this Autumn. Berlin has already turned off Analogue.

However a Sagem DTT set box is only €20 in France.

The other posters list of Groups is incredibly wrong and also Dublin Centric.

Groups of TV viewers:

* RTE 1 & 2 on VHF, poor or Good TG4 depend if UHF aerial ever added. Some areas NO TV3 at all.

* All analog channels on UHF. (RTE1, 2, TG4 and TV3)

* All Irish Analog + some UK from analog Deflector system

* All Irish Analog + Most UK analog Direct from Divis, Brougher, or Wales.

* All Irish Analog +All UK analog Direct from Divis, Brougher, or Wales, AND 2 to 4 UK Freeview DTT Mux.

Then depending ON Area, ONE ONLY OF:
Analog Cable Only, Analog MMDS Only, Analog + some Digital MMDS, Digital MMDS Only and Analog + Digital Cable, Smart / Magnet IPTV.
Some of the cabled subscribers may find it very difficult to be allowed a Dish or TV aerial.

Satellite Everywhere, ANY MIX of:
1) Sky, Sky+ or Sky HD Irish Sub subscription (No C4 or Five, All ITV and most BBC hidden, but work via other channels)
2) Sky, Sky+ or Sky HD N.I. Sub subscription IN Republic! (No TV3, some RTE /TG4 might be blacked out? Has C4 and Five)
3) Sky, Sky+ or Sky HD mainland Sub subscription IN Republic! (No Irish TV at all. Has C4 and Five).
4) Sky FTV card, or Cancelled UK sub. No Irish TV, but C4, Five and Sky3 work.
5) Cancelled Irish Sub. (No Irish TV C4 or Five, All ITV and most BBC hidden, but work via other channels. Sky 3 works.)
6) FTA receiver. No Irish TV, No Ch4 or Five. All BBC, ITV, Film4 etc and many other channels.

Optionally the satellite receiver feed around to other TVs.
Up to 8 ordinary Receivers or 4 Sky+ / Sky HD possible easily of one Dish. Expansion to 1000 receivers from one dish in multiples of 16, using Quattro LNbs possible.

7)Multisatellite feed: Up to FOUR different satellites form one dish.
8)Motorised dish. Up to 29 or so satellite positions
9) Non-Sky pay TV, e.g. Canal+, Cyfra+, Absat, Digitalb, Art etc.
10) Sky multi room subscription.

You can get about 3500 Free satellite channels with a Motorised system at under €400 once off cost. (Only about 100 really good channels

though!)

Some folks have Analogue, Freeview DTT, Satellite AND Cable (The cable perhaps to get broaband but comes with a basic TV package!).

An Irish DTT service Is trialing in the areas where people have the least incentive to get it. If it ever rolls out it will be people in West Cork, Kerry, Wilds of Limerick & Clare, Mayo, Donegal etc with two and half channels that will be last to get it.

Unfortunately many people think that Satellite means Sky. (it doesn't) and don't want to pay 22 Euro to 65 Euro a month for a lot channels they don't want. In those Rural areas they are only slowly realising they can once off pay 150 Euro to 300 Euro for a satellite Free To Air and get all BBC, ITV and other channels and DELETE the channels they don't want out of the 250 rubbish ones.

Also in these areas ideally served by Satellite for RTE, TG4 and TV3 (ironically where they might actually speak Irish and be unable to get TG4 on the RTE aerial), there is no scheme for an Irish TV only card for Sky box. (as well you would get all the free channels). This could easily be done but is prevented by the deal RTE did with Sky to be on Sky platform for FREE, as if Sky is simply Wireless Cable TV, like MMDS.

byte · 02-09-2006 05:48PM

Elmo wrote:

As for sky they took on RTE, TV3 and TG4 to provide something Irish it keeps the government quite and the punters happy since Sky have only started to show the ITV channels.

IN fairness, I'd say RTE were quite happy with the dealy too, as they thought they were losing too many viewers to Sky subscribers. And indeed, the advertisers possibly weren't happy either.

As for Sky showing the ITV channels, that was with no thanks to Sky, as it was ITV's decision to go FTA.

Elmo · 02-09-2006 05:52PM

As for Sky showing the ITV channels, that was with no thanks to Sky, as it was ITV's decision to go FTA.

Indeed!

Thank watty for the reception Info.

An Irish DTT service Is trialing in the areas where people have the least incentive to get it. If it ever rolls out it will be people in West Cork, Kerry, Wilds of Limerick & Clare, Mayo, Donegal etc with two and half channels that will be last to get it.

IMO digital test should be run from their and an upgrade of their services by RTE. Regardless of Money. It's called Decentralisation.

DTT Channel Speculation

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