BT Billing, its happened again.

Q_Ball · 22-07-2006 12:54PM #1

Hey all,

Mam received a bill today for ~€600 from BT for their broadband service (not even a bill, a letter). She rang customer "care" who told us that bills had not been paid since july 2004 and that the amount quoted in the letter was the outstanding debt. To top it all off, the customer care rep asked us if we lived at a different address (he gave the house number and street name, to which mam politely informed him that we have lived at our current address for 18 years...).

I have come to realise that this is not uncommon among BT sufferees.

The account was set up to use direct debit to pay each bill. The CC rep said that the last bill paid was 21st July 2004. So at least we know that at some stage the DD was working. The account that the DD comes from was never changed, so why did it stop all of a sudden?

It boggles the mind as to how a company like BT Ireland can let their customers not pay bills for two years and not notice

No bills were ever received, it was assumed that they were being paid in good faith but this has not been the case.

What really bugs me is:

How did the bill go unpaid without them ever noticing,
Why, after confirming our address, did the CC rep ask if we lived at another address,
How the bill works out to be ~€600 since 24 months at our bill tariff (€90 every two months) does not equal that amount.

I am now looking into different broadband providers with the view of cancelling the account asap. I do not want this to happen again. It should never have happened in the first place.

Grrr

http://www.btirelandsucks indeed.

Mam (or myself) will ring the credit department on monday to try and arrange the amount to be paid in installments but only after they provide a statement indicating where they are getting their figures from.

I am unsure of what else to do. I want to make my opinion known to them but don't know how. In another thread it was mentioned that an email should be sent to a mike maloney at BT Ireland and cc'd to comreg. Is this still a valid course of action? At least if ComReg know then something may happen to prevent this from happening in the future.

All the best,

Darren

watty · 22-07-2006 01:03PM

This should be in Broadband, not Ireland Offline?

Q_Ball · 22-07-2006 01:31PM

Yeah i noticed that after I had posted. I didnt check the broadband forum because in the charter it said

The Broadband forum is for general tech support etc for broadband connections.

I've copied and pasted the post into the BT Complaints thread there. I'm going to leave it up as I feel it is a valid post and at least users like myself who didnt know about the thread on broadband can be made aware of its existance

cgarvey · 22-07-2006 02:53PM

Few things..

1. Realise that there was at least some onus on you (or your mam, rather) to realise that ye'd been using a service without paying for it for 2 years. Yeah sure you've been entitled to timely billing, but some onus is on you to realise that wasn't happening.

2. Ring customer care and seek clarification on the charges (having your own calculations to hand so that you can compare and see where one of you have gone wrong). If they "can't do" that, or transfer you to endless useless CS/Billing reps, then do it in writing instead, using registered post.

3. Once the charges have been clarified, seek to have a re-payment plan that is reasonable (to both you and BT) on the grounds of BT not supplying you with timely billing information, to which you are entitled. There's no doubt you owe them money, so don't get too cocky! Again if you get no joy over the phone, pop in in writing via registered post.

4. If you still have no reply/joy/resolution (to charges clarification), make a formal complaint, in writing, and suggest a maximum of 10 working days for a reply. Don't offer email address/phone (so that they'll have to reply in writing). If they do phone you, say you're busy and can you have that in writing instead. If you do get the charges clarified, but get no joy on a re-payment plan, then you'll have to seek legal advice, or the advice of your local Citizen's Bureau as to your entitlement. I'd only be speculating on that subject, which is of no use to you.

5. If after 10 working days you don't get a reply, contact ComReg for assistance, explaining the steps you've followed in your attempt to adhere to BT's customer complaints procedure. ComReg, quite rightly, will not entertain your issue until you've made a sufficient attempt to resolve it.

6. Make sure you note names, dates & times of all phone calls made. If he/she doesn't announce their name, ask for it. Ask if there is a reference number for this complaint (and they'll likely say no, but it'll let them know that you're being particular, etc.). Note what was said in the conversation, including any promises like "we'll credit you", or "we'll ring you back", etc. Summarise the call before hanging up, so that both sides are clear on what who is doing next. Be courteous.

7. Good luck, and let us know how you get on (so that others may learn from your experience).

8. Moved from IoffL > Broadband for a wider/more specific audience.

Irishdudedave · 22-07-2006 03:58PM

Q_Ball wrote:

Hey all,

Mam received a bill today for ~€600 from BT for their broadband service (not even a bill, a letter). She rang customer "care" who told us that bills had not been paid since july 2004 and that the amount quoted in the letter was the outstanding debt. To top it all off, the customer care rep asked us if we lived at a different address (he gave the house number and street name, to which mam politely informed him that we have lived at our current address for 18 years...).

I have come to realise that this is not uncommon among BT sufferees.

The account was set up to use direct debit to pay each bill. The CC rep said that the last bill paid was 21st July 2004. So at least we know that at some stage the DD was working. The account that the DD comes from was never changed, so why did it stop all of a sudden?

It boggles the mind as to how a company like BT Ireland can let their customers not pay bills for two years and not notice

No bills were ever received, it was assumed that they were being paid in good faith but this has not been the case.

What really bugs me is:
How did the bill go unpaid without them ever noticing,

Why, after confirming our address, did the CC rep ask if we lived at another address,

How the bill works out to be ~€600 since 24 months at our bill tariff (€90 every two months) does not equal that amount.

I am now looking into different broadband providers with the view of cancelling the account asap. I do not want this to happen again. It should never have happened in the first place.

Grrr

http://www.btirelandsucks indeed.

Mam (or myself) will ring the credit department on monday to try and arrange the amount to be paid in installments but only after they provide a statement indicating where they are getting their figures from.

I am unsure of what else to do. I want to make my opinion known to them but don't know how. In another thread it was mentioned that an email should be sent to a mike maloney at BT Ireland and cc'd to comreg. Is this still a valid course of action? At least if ComReg know then something may happen to prevent this from happening in the future.

All the best,

Darren

The exact same thing is happening with me at the moment, We keep receiving a bill for a woman in Dublin that is dated 2004!! I finally recived a paper bill from them yesterday and it was my address just with Dublin instead of Cork on it...You would think a phone company would know that 021 is not a Dublin area code!!!

Sponge Bob · 22-07-2006 05:48PM

Irishdudedave wrote:

The exact same thing is happening with me at the moment, We keep receiving a bill for a woman in Dublin that is dated 2004!! I finally recived a paper bill from them yesterday and it was my address just with Dublin instead of Cork on it...You would think a phone company would know that 021 is not a Dublin area code!!!

LOL, thats qballs ma I reckon

Have you ever rung BT about this and what happened , its 1800924924 or 1904 ??

Sapele · 22-07-2006 06:06PM

A very similar thing happened to me. I paid the outstanding balance by credit card; this transaction went through on my card, but not on BT's billing system. Then mysteriously my DD with BT worked again and the same bill I had paid by CC was then taken again by DD by BT. I then had BT's legendary complaints dept inflicted on me, needed Comregs help, eventually getting my refund months later. Good Question, why do DD's with BT just stop working ... my bank told me there was nothing untoward with the DD, BT just didn’t take the payments it seems. Why? I asked many times and never got a coherent answer from them. Needless to say, I've left BT. I just could not stomach paying a cent to that company....

Comreg are aware of these types of problems with BT. A typical situation may be; you email BT's complaints dept and get a complaints ref number. A reasonable amount of time goes by without a satisfactory resolution (say 10 days or 2 weeks), you email Comreg detailing the problem and supply your complaints ref number. Comreq then contact BT quoting that number and ask for an update on your behalf.

As for preventing it happening in the future, well that would entail BT fixing their billing system. If you look at some of the threads here on boards and elsewhere you will see that many people have been calling for that for a long time. Personally I don't think they want to ... all the overcharging complained about must add up to a nice tidy sum :eek:

eircomtribunal · 22-07-2006 10:44PM

Sapele wrote:

Personally I don't think they want to ... all the overcharging complained about must add up to a nice tidy sum :eek:

Don't be stupid. Nothing is more damaging to BT than the gremlins in their billing system. BT certainly have billing issues, they know that and I know that they certainly try to iron them out.
In my experience they are dealing with and resolving the individual cases. While it is a hassle (I know it from my own experience. As chance would have it we just got a BT bill last week over € -0.01 and we aren't BT customers since a long time.) for the individual – and the anger is voiced in the posts – I have seldom seen that posters acknowledged when the issues were resolved.

If I could avail of BT's loss-leader broadband offer (broadband for an extra tenner per month above the line rental), I would do so anytime.

P.

dub45 · 23-07-2006 12:07AM

eircomtribunal wrote:

Don't be stupid. Nothing is more damaging to BT than the gremlins in their billing system. BT certainly have billing issues, they know that and I know that they certainly try to iron them out.
......................

P.

So maybe you would explain to us whey have have let their billing problems go on for so long........................?

dub45 · 23-07-2006 12:12AM

Q_Ball wrote:

Hey all,

Mam received a bill today for ~€600 from BT for their broadband service (not even a bill, a letter). ...................................

I am unsure of what else to do. I want to make my opinion known to them but don't know how. In another thread it was mentioned that an email should be sent to a mike maloney at BT Ireland and cc'd to comreg. Is this still a valid course of action? At least if ComReg know then something may happen to prevent this from happening in the future.

All the best,

Darren

Now if there is a new EsatBt and they are really serious about sorting issues out isnt this the type of thing we should not be seeeing?

Surely this type of case which is sadly hardly rare is an opportunity for them to issue a nice letter along the lines of 'Sorry due to system problems (the old reliable excuse!) we have not been dding you for some time now. We realise that the amount outstanding may be an issue for you and we would be grateful therefore if you would contact us at xxxxxxxxxxx so that a mutually acceptable payment programme can be agreed.''

Q_Ball · 23-07-2006 12:19AM

I was explaining the situation to my girlfriend who is also a BT customer. Perturbed by what had happened she checked her account to find out that they haven't billed her in months either.

I feel guilty because I had originally recommended BT to her as I had never had a problem with it. Needless to say I will NEVER recommend BT to ANYONE.

BT Ireland, you have joined IBB on "the list"

dub45 · 23-07-2006 12:27AM

Q_Ball wrote:

I was explaining the situation to my girlfriend who is also a BT customer. Perturbed by what had happened she checked her account to find out that they haven't billed her in months either.

I feel guilty because I had originally recommended BT to her as I had never had a problem with it. Needless to say I will NEVER recommend BT to ANYONE.

BT Ireland, you have joined IBB on "the list"

You could deal with your guilt in the personal issues forum:)

eircomtribunal · 23-07-2006 12:59AM

Q_Ball wrote:

I was explaining the situation to my girlfriend who is also a BT customer. Perturbed by what had happened she checked her account to find out that they haven't billed her in months either.

Look at the bright side! BT lends money, without charging interest.
Let us know to what agreement you come with BT about paying the bill in increments etc.

I feel guilty because I had originally recommended BT to her as I had never had a problem with it. Needless to say I will NEVER recommend BT to ANYONE.

So you would not recommend a broadband provider who offers some of the best pricing, rock solid network performance and in some cases does not even want to be paid for until years after providing the service?
P.

Dman_15 · 23-07-2006 01:13AM

Q_Ball wrote:

No bills were ever received, it was assumed that they were being paid in good faith but this has not been the case.

I had exactly the same thing happen over an unlimited dialup a/c

I signed up with my CC for monthly payment, the dialup worked, i never got a bill or thought to check my CC bill then out of the blue a letter demanding i paid €250 odd that was due on the account.

After dozens of emails and phone calls I asked for a breakdown of the bill. Thank god BT are hopelessly incompetent and to this day (2 years later) have not produced this and seem to have forgotten about me.

I dont think they even had the means or documentation to persue it any further

dub45 · 23-07-2006 01:21AM

eircomtribunal wrote:

Look at the bright side! BT lends money, without charging interest.
Let us know to what agreement you come with BT about paying the bill in increments etc.

So you would not recommend a broadband provider who offers some of the best pricing, rock solid network performance and in some cases does not even want to be paid for until years after providing the service?
P.

You conveniently forget to mention the stress from the debt collectors and the f***cking up of peoples' bank accounts and the witholding of overpaid amounts and the hours on the telephone trying to sort out bills and causing so much frustration that a dossier is compiled (in the absence of any action from EsatBt who you claim are embarssed by their wrong billing) and the hijacking of said dossier so that it never reaches its destination - they are highly recommendable ok!!!!!!

Sapele · 23-07-2006 01:08PM

BT has had years to fix their billing system and have failed to do. Judging by the amount of complaints regarding BT overcharging and abuse of the direct debit system over the last 6 months or so on boards it would seem that their billing system is if anything, getting worse :eek: It would seem to me that not only are BT abusing the DD system but they are cashing in on soft direct debits. It is my opinion that many people who have a direct debit set up with BT and don't check the amounts being taken carefully may well be, or were at one stage, being over charged. I never once received a paper bill from esatBT, yet I was charged €2.50 per month for it. If for example BT's practices were very publicly highlighted on a mainstream radio or tv program or Comreg really got their finger out and started protecting Irish consumers from rip off companies then it wouldn’t take donkeys years for BT to "fix their billing system"

vibe666 · 23-07-2006 07:50PM

having them not bill you is the last of your worries, wait till you try and get them to stop billing you, then you'll know what it's all about!

they have the power to re-set up a direct debit even if you've cancelled it and there's not a thing the banks can do about it.

they did it three times to me before i managed to get them to stop it by contacting bill murphy directly (god bless him, if only he were still there).

then when i moved house to a property that had previously had a phone line and broadband it took them 3 months to get me re-connected.

dub45 · 23-07-2006 11:49PM

I know it is slightly off topic but it is really the direct debit system which allows companies so much freedom that has contributed greatly to this mess.
As I learn more about the system the more depressed I become - it is almost impossible to make any sort of complaint about a company who abuses the system - to do so you have to ask your own bank to make a complaint to the 'sponsoring' bank of the company involved - now how many banks are going to be interested in doing that with any conviction???

and I wonder how many people realise that the minimum notice period between billing and debiting an account has now been reduced to 7 working days in the new direct debit plus system. (thats what they call the system which allows you to sign up over the phone without a signature) 7 working days is a ludicrously short time to allow a customer to challenge a billed amount.

eircomtribunal · 24-07-2006 12:27AM

dub45 wrote:

I know it is slightly off topic...

I find it hard to believe that

they have the power to re-set up a direct debit even if you've cancelled it and there's not a thing the banks can do about it.

I would strongly assume that nobody other than myself can re-set up a direct debit that I've cancelled?!?
P.

dub45 · 24-07-2006 01:09AM

eircomtribunal wrote:

I find it hard to believe that I would strongly assume that nobody other than myself can re-set up a direct debit that I've cancelled?!?
P.

I would have thought the same however it had been reported quite regularly here on boards that companies just reset up the direct debit:rolleyes: and that the banks just say oh its between you and the company etc etc - thats why I think that the chances of a bank pursuing a complaint against a company like EsatBT are slim to say the least. Whereas if there was a realtic chance of a direct debit facility being withdrawn from a company that might encouarge them to behave. Full details of the supposed operations of the direct debit system are at www.ipso.ie

eircomtribunal · 24-07-2006 01:47AM

dub45 wrote:

Full details of the supposed operations of the direct debit system are at www.ipso.ie

The rules leave no doubt:
that cancelled DDs are cancelled; disputed amounts cannot be debited etc,

"Paying banks...
must put in place processes which
will ensure that unauthorised and/or
cancelled Direct Debits are
intercepted and returned
immediately on presentation"

If the Payer has cancelled the DD, the bank has to return the DD request unpaid with the appropriate return code (1 in this case).

I doubt that banks would not adhere to these clear-cut regulations. If they did, a very simple notification of the financial regulator would sort out that bank rather quickly.
P.

dub45 · 24-07-2006 02:06AM

eircomtribunal wrote:

The rules leave no doubt:
that cancelled DDs are cancelled; disputed amounts cannot be debited etc,

"Paying banks...
must put in place processes which
will ensure that unauthorised and/or
cancelled Direct Debits are
intercepted and returned
immediately on presentation"

If the Payer has cancelled the DD, the bank has to return the DD request unpaid with the appropriate return code (1 in this case).

I doubt that banks would not adhere to these clear-cut regulations. If they did, a very simple notification of the financial regulator would sort out that bank rather quickly.
P.

I agree with you but in practise according to reports here banks abdicate their responsibility in this respect and tell people its between you and the company - and with the current levels of extemely inexperienced staff in branches I am not surprised at all - appalled yes - surprised no!

Have you ever seen any consumer information in respect of direct debits in bank branches?

Does this guide - http://www.ipso.ie/frames/documents/PayersGuide.pdf

ever appear in a branch or get shown to bank staff? And even though its pretty weak I think that companies issuing direct debit sign ups should be required to enclose it for customers.

geecee · 24-07-2006 09:29AM

Again slightly off topic (sorry OP)

But to back up what Dub45 is saying...
Every year for the last 4 years Sentinel Card services (and more recently Pinnacle insurances)have re-opened a Visa Account that I closed down over 5 years ago. And charged me ~€15 for "Card Protection Services"

The Visa bill is then paid by DD every year without my knowledge
First time i notice it is when the money gets withdrawn from my bank account!

Despite probably hundreds of phonecalls and letters to Sentinel, Pinnacle, AIB Visa and my bank it consistently happens every year! Only way to stop it would be to close my Bank account.... But i have been advised that could lead to Sentinel putting me on a credit blacklist!

And the worst thing is... I never even signed up for any card protection services EVER! And AIB have no idea where sentinel got my details from!

Sapele · 24-07-2006 11:05AM

Well here's a test for you then eircomtribunal - ring up your bank and ask them if they can guarantee that if you stop a DD on your current account in writing to both the bank and the company the DD is with that no money will ever be taken from your account by that company unless your re-authorise it. I did just that with my AIB branch regarding BT and they could not guarantee me this would be the case. I spoke to a senior manager and said to her that this sounds incredible, surely a company cannot take money from my account unless I give a say so. She told me that what happens is the company puts through the cancelled DD again as a first payment, thereby fooling the banks systems. She advised me that the only way to be 100% sure was to close that account and reopen a new current account. She said she would have no problems doing this for me there and then. I said no, I'm not letting BT force me into closing my current account. She then advised me to keep a close eye on the account for another DD going through and that if one did go through and I contacted the bank promptly, they would pull the money back. Apparently they can do this if it is spotted within a certain time span. The time span may well vary depending on how well you know your bank manager

Scruff · 24-07-2006 12:52PM

Could a class action law suit be taken against them or some sort of legal action that would give them really bad publicity and force them to sort out there horrendous billing system??

Especially in the case where someone has ceased to be a customer and BT continue to take money from their account. Is this not stealing or at the very least gross negligence and dereliction of duty to honour a cessation request???

dub45 · 24-07-2006 01:11PM

Sapele wrote:

Well here's a test for you then eircomtribunal - ring up your bank and ask them if they can guarantee that if you stop a DD on your current account in writing to both the bank and the company the DD is with that no money will ever be taken from your account by that company unless your re-authorise it. I did just that with my AIB branch regarding BT and they could not guarantee me this would be the case. I spoke to a senior manager and said to her that this sounds incredible, surely a company cannot take money from my account unless I give a say so. She told me that what happens is the company puts through the cancelled DD again as a first payment, thereby fooling the banks systems. She advised me that the only way to be 100% sure was to close that account and reopen a new current account. She said she would have no problems doing this for me there and then. I said no, I'm not letting BT force me into closing my current account. She then advised me to keep a close eye on the account for another DD going through and that if one did go through and I contacted the bank promptly, they would pull the money back. Apparently they can do this if it is spotted within a certain time span. The time span may well vary depending on how well you know your bank manager

Sadly this bears out my arguments about the weakness of the direct debit system and the ignorance of its workings by bank staff in this case a 'senior manager' - according to the so called dd system your branch should be making a complaint to EsatBT's sponsoring bank and that should take care of things:rolleyes: But if a senior manager is advising you to close your account to evade BT (or any other company) God help us all.

Bascially there is no realistic sanction available to a customer against a company who abuses the direct debit system and ipso dont want to know about this - I have tried and they think the system is perfect!

dub45 · 24-07-2006 01:14PM

Scruff wrote:

Could a class action law suit be taken against them or some sort of legal action that would give them really bad publicity and force them to sort out there horrendous billing system??

Especially in the case where someone has ceased to be a customer and BT continue to take money from their account. Is this not stealing or at the very least gross negligence and dereliction of duty to honour a cessation request???

It's stealing pure and simple - can you imagine what would happen to someone who hacked into EsatBT's accounts or any other company for that matter and took a sum as small as a tenner even and left a note saying ring me (oh by the way I might or might not answer the phone after an hour or so) and I will arrange to get this back to you eventually maybe in three or four months or longer?

Foxwood · 24-07-2006 01:41PM

Scruff wrote:

Could a class action law suit be taken against them

You could move to the US (where they have Class Action Law Suits) and try, but I don't think the courts would have jurisdiction.

or some sort of legal action that would give them really bad publicity and force them to sort out there horrendous billing system??

The problem here is the "getting publicity" bit, not the "some sort of legal action" bit. AFAIR, a number if people have reported success in the small claims court. Getting the media to make an issue of it is another story.

eircomtribunal · 24-07-2006 05:00PM

Sapele wrote:

Well here's a test for you then eircomtribunal

I take note of and do not question what you say. This is in clear breach of the DD rules and regulations on the ipso website documents. I would not take any shîte like that from my bank. That's absurd with restarting a new current account etc.
Carefully read through document http://www.ipso.ie/frames/documents/OriginatorsDay-to-Dayfinal_001.pdf from the ipso website.
Your, or any bank should not have the slightest chance to get away with what you are saying.

Even if the Sponsoring bank (the bank that in this case BT uses) allows the Originator (BT) to put through first DD deductions to the Paying bank (your bank) without proof of your DD statement (and they can do this for practical reasons; i.e. as a DD originator it suffices to tell my sponsoring bank name, account number, banking code and amount to be taken for the first DD deduction, but this is no open door for misusing the system) they cannot use this path to get around your cancelled DD or in order to get disputed sums.
You are entitled to prompt return of any funds taken thus by your bank from your account. It is not a point of discussion or debate or excuses about how "your bank was fooled" or an excuse for delay. Money can only be taken via DD if it is done with your agreement. Full stop.

Just to make sure I have brought this issue to the attention of the Irish Payment Services Organisation. They won't be back with a full answer until tomorrow, but I am confident that they will live up to their main prerogative: "The essence of the Direct Debit Scheme is that of the total integrity of and trust in the Scheme."
P.

dub45 · 24-07-2006 05:36PM

eircomtribunal wrote:

I take note of and do not question what you say. This is in clear breach of the DD rules and regulations on the ipso website ...........................

Just to make sure I have brought this issue to the attention of the Irish Payment Services Organisation. They won't be back with a full answer until tomorrow, but I am confident that they will live up to their main prerogative: "The essence of the Direct Debit Scheme is that of the total integrity of and trust in the Scheme."
P.

I raised a number of issues in connection with the dd system lately with ipso and while the girl was very polite on the phone that was it - all they will do is point you back to the bank (I will be very happy to be proved wrong I assure you!).

I still think that the biggest flaw is the complete absence of sanction against an offender - no matter what the likes of EsatBt or other companies do - nothing - absolutely nothing will be done against them and confident in that knowledge they will do what they bloodywell like with the dd system and that has been the case for years and nothing sadly is going to change it. Surely it is an indictment of the whole system that a 'senior manager' in a branch has not got a clue how do deal witha problem?

event · 24-07-2006 05:45PM

how do you not realise that you havent been charged in 4 years?

BT Billing, its happened again.

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