Overtaking technique

BrianD3 · 22-07-2006 12:47PM #1

I was in a car with a guy yesterday who worried me with the way he was overtaking. Basically he would tailgate the car in front (lets call it the target vehicle) edge out for a look and if it was clear he would then accelerate. So he was only accelerating when he was partly or fully on the other side of the road. This resulted in him taking ages to get by. He could have gotten away with this if it he was in a powerful car but he wasn't it was a 1.4 litre Golf

edit: I believe the Institute of Advanced Motorists actually recommends the above technique

Now what I usually do if I see an overtaking opportunity ahead (eg a break in oncoming traffic on a long straight) is leave a good distance to the target vehicle, get into an appropriate gear, floor it, accelerate towards the back of the target and then pull onto the other side of the road. It's better to hang back a bit before overtaking as you get a much better view of what's ahead that if you're stuck up the arse of the target. Also this technique results in very little time spent on the wrong side of the road. However there are risks with it too eg if the target slams on the brakes for whatever reason you can be in trouble. It is a good idea to be prepared for this if it happens and have a plan/escape route. It is also good not to leave too big an acceleration space as if you do you will get too much acceleration and will be closing on the target very quickly giving you less time and space to react if anything goes wrong.

Knowing the road is a big help for knowing where it is and isn't possible to overtake and when to prepare for a potential opportunity. I know drivers who drive on the same roads all the time yet they don't seem to have copped on to this. Probably becasue they are in a dreamworld when driving.

Also what are people's thoughts on "leapfrog" overtaking. You come across a convoy of cars dawdling along at 50 mph on a national route. Nobody's attempting to overtake anyone else. You cannot take the entire convoy in one go but can take a couple of cars at a time. I find that many driver have a major problem with being leapfrogged and will speed up to block you, flash lights etc. I am more cautious about leapfrogging than I used to be. Now I'll only do it if I can clearly see a big gap that I can overtake into. I'd say the gap would want to be a minimum of 10 car lengths.

Anan1 · 22-07-2006 01:01PM

That all makes perfect sense, to me at least. I suppose the problem with leapfrog overtaking is a) inadequate gaps between cars, b) many drivers take being overtaken quite personally, and c) the driver of the car being overtaken may be planning to overtake themselves, but without indicating or looking. The solution, as you said, is to always have an escape route.

BrianD3 · 22-07-2006 01:13PM

Yes Anan having a escape route and planning for what might happen is a very good idea. Just on the 2nd overtaking technique I described I have heard this described as the "long distance lunge" method which doesn't sound very safe but IMO it depends on how much visibility you have. Eg if you're already on a straight and have good visibility of everything ahead and can see a decent gap in oncoming traffic ahead then it's quite safe.

Anan1 · 22-07-2006 01:21PM

I suppose a lot depends on the power of the car you're driving too. On a slight tangent, I once read about a technique used by the drivers of some turbocharged cars when overtaking. The idea is, just before you're ready to go, that you accelerate (not too hard!) but simultaneously hold the car on the brake, so your speed remains constant. This will spool up the turbo, so when you release the brake & accelerate hard you have no turbo lag to wait out. I tried it a couple of times on an empty road - while it would require a degree of practise and is probably not the best for the car, the results are undeniably spectacular.

mike65 · 22-07-2006 01:38PM

I'm not a fan of leapfroggers, they are likely to scare some of those who are holding station in a line of traffic. You may know you're coming but we all know many people rarely consult thier mirrors esp the wings ones. Also those who leapfrong often do so by effectievly barging in - creating a space that does'nt really exist. This causes sudden braking which feeds back through the traffic with the obvious potential for a shunt.

Mike.

mloc123 · 22-07-2006 01:38PM

Some Australian was on the radio once saying people in Ireland didn't know how to overtake. He said the best way was the "long distance lunge" method, depending on the situation I use either method.

ianobrien · 22-07-2006 01:54PM

I would have to agree with Anan1 and say that it depends on the car. If you have a car with loads of torque, you can use the tailgate method as the car would have the grunt to go when ever you want. If you have a car that doesn't have a load of grunt, the long distance lunge method works.

I use the long distance lunge method most of the time.

BrianD3, I assume that the driver of the Golf wasn't trying to overtake in top gear. If he was, he needs a talking to, and basically told that max power is at 5000rpm!

BrianD3 · 22-07-2006 02:00PM

mike65 wrote:

Also those who leapfrong often do so by effectievly barging in - creating a space that does'nt really exist. .

But what if the space is 10+ car lengths? I agree that barging into small gaps is bad. One problem is that there are a lot of pr1cks on the road who as Anan1 says take it personally when you overtake them. So you see a big gap in a convoy and plan on leapfrogging into it. Problem is some pr1ck sees you start to overtake and speeds up to reduce the gap

The turbo spooling idea reminds me of a simple tip if you need to change down a gear quickly before an overtake. Blip the throttle when you have the clutch disengaged and are moving the stick between the gears. This speeds up the engine so that it is turning at the right speed for the new (lower) gear. If you don't do this the engine revs drop and are brought back up again when you engage the clutch = engine braking which may slow you down a bit.

As for the guy in the Golf, yes he was using 5th gear to overtake :rolleyes:

ianobrien · 22-07-2006 02:02PM

BrianD3 wrote:

As for the guy in the Golf, yes he was using 5th gear to overtake :rolleyes:

Muppet! Does he know that it is safe to rev the car up to the rev limiter?

mloc123 · 22-07-2006 02:38PM

ianobrien wrote:

If he was, he needs a talking to, and basically told that max power is at 5000rpm!

Hehe, even at 5000rpm a 1.4 Golf has fudge all power... I love having a load of torque for overtaking

colm_mcm · 22-07-2006 02:58PM

Yes but the Golf is so quiet in 5th gear!

BrianD3 · 22-07-2006 02:59PM

Another thing I'd like to talk about is something that I reckon is one of the most dangerous practices on the road and something I see everyday. What happens is the target vehicle is holding up a line of cars. An overtaking opportunity presents itself. The lead car pulls out to overtake and the next car behind either follows him before he's completed the overtake. Or else the following car closes right up on the target.

What happens if something happens that necessitates the lead car abandoning his overtake and pulling back in behind the target. In either of the above situations he can't. Highly dangerous for all involved

The other day I was behind an artic which was behind a slow moving car. The artic was dying to get by which was understandable as the car was crawling and wouldn't move into the hard shoulder. So we come onto a long clear staright and the artic starts his overtake. It was a safe overtake but it took him AGES as it was a slight uphill and because of his speed restrictor. While this is going on I now have an artic sized gap between me and the slow car. There was another driver behind me who was getting impateint because I wouldn't move into this gap till the artic had gotten past the target.

peasant · 22-07-2006 03:08PM

Used to have a Saab 900 turbo automatic. The combination of kickdown and turbo kicking in was nothing but spectacular.
There was a nice bit of lag, of course, both in the kickdown as well as in the turbo spooling up. Once you got the knack of it you could overtake in the most spectacular manner: Drive up to the car in front, kick down and pull out at the same time. The slightly higher speed from before would bring you up to about near enough eye level with the car next to you and then (finally) the car would shift and the turbo would blast and you'd leave the astonished driver of the other car literally standing. Loved it!:D

With the somewhat asthmatic Jimny it is definitely the other method:(

EDIT

Another thing: I openly admit to breaking the speed limit almost every time I overtake. When my mind is made up that it is safe to overtake, I floor the car (unless there is miles of free road ahead) because I want it over as fast as possible and not crawl past. I deem that to be the safer way. Of course I slow down again to the limit once I have pulled in and got a safe distance.

One of these days I'll probably get a ticket for that, but in my opinion it is much safer to overtake quickly than to linger next to the other car for ages.

Anan1 · 22-07-2006 04:14PM

peasant wrote:

One of these days I'll probably get a ticket for that, but in my opinion it is much safer to overtake quickly than to linger next to the other car for ages.

Exactly, if a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing right.

Torak · 22-07-2006 04:42PM

I'm surprised to be honest.

There is only one correct way to overtake, and that is whilst driving at the same speed as the car in front of you, you watch the road ahead. When it is safe to overtake you check mirrors, indicate and accelerate to the speed that you will complete the manouver at.

Once travelling at this speed (and still with breaking distance to the car in front) one final mirror check for the lunatic who decides to "leapfrog" :mad:, one final look ahead to the space you will use when overtaking and then go. Cancel indicating (depending on the country), continue until you can see the other car clearly in your rear view mirror, clearly indicate intention to return to the correct side of the road and do so.

to anyone with an ounce of sense this is the only safe way to overtake. I mean think about it....

and before anyone says anything about the whole "taking overtaking personally" when it comes to leapfrogging there are many who do. I don't. However I do take it personally when I am overtaken in a clearly dangerous fashion whilst I drive with due care and attention. you see the person who overtakes incorrectly and dangerously isn't just threatening their own lives. Their lack of attention and clearly inadequate judgement puts the life of me and my family at risk also.

If someone waved a knife in my wifes face you can be damn sure I would take it personally.. The same goes for dangerous overtaking...

peasant · 22-07-2006 04:52PM

Torak wrote:

I'm surprised to be honest.

There is only one correct way to overtake, and that is whilst driving at the same speed as the car in front of you, you watch the road ahead. When it is safe to overtake you check mirrors, indicate and accelerate to the speed that you will complete the manouver at.

Once travelling at this speed (and still with breaking distance to the car in front) one final mirror check for the lunatic who decides to "leapfrog" :mad:, one final look ahead to the space you will use when overtaking and then go. Cancel indicating (depending on the country), continue until you can see the other car clearly in your rear view mirror, clearly indicate intention to return to the correct side of the road and do so.

to anyone with an ounce of sense this is the only safe way to overtake. I mean think about it....

All very well ...but what do you do if you don't have three miles of free road available to do this?

And at what distance from the "target" do you start this maneuver?

Doesnt work anyway .... your travelling at a safe distance behind another vehicle at 80 km/h ....you want to overtake at 100 km/h ...which according to your "rules" means that you have to increase the safe distance ...so do you let yourself fall back before you start accelerating or what ??

Torak · 22-07-2006 04:59PM

peasant wrote:

All very well ...but what do you do if you don't have three miles of free road available to do this?

Then obviously, if you have inadequate distance to safely overtake, you don't. Why is this difficult to comprehend?

peasant wrote:

Doesnt work anyway .... your travelling at a safe distance behind another vehicle at 80 km/h ....you want to overtake at 100 km/h ...which according to your "rules" means that you have to increase the safe distance ...so do you let yourself fall back before you start accelerating or what ??

If you don't have breaking distance at ALL times how can you stop your car if a child walks out in front of the other car and the other car must abruptly stop?

Answer that question and you answer yours.

You cannot counter every scenario and you cannot prepare for everything, but by following simple guidelines you can counter most.

maidhc · 22-07-2006 04:59PM

peasant wrote:

Doesnt work anyway .... your travelling at a safe distance behind another vehicle at 80 km/h ....you want to overtake at 100 km/h ...which according to your "rules" means that you have to increase the safe distance ...so do you let yourself fall back before you start accelerating or what ??

At which point someone will attempt to overtake you!

peasant · 22-07-2006 05:12PM

If you don't have breaking distance at ALL times how can you stop your car if a child walks out in front of the other car and the other car must abruptly stop?

Usually I overtake on the other side of the road ...i.e. not BEHIND the other car.:D

At some stage you have to commit to changing lanes ..I do so, when I have reduced the distance to the point where it is no longer the safe distance.

In other words, I start accelerating from the same speed at a safe distance and once I start gaining (and reducing the distance to an unsafe one), pull out, keep accelerating and pull past as quickly as possible.

gingerGiant · 22-07-2006 05:35PM

BrianD3 wrote:

Another thing I'd like to talk about is something that I reckon is one of the most dangerous practices on the road and something I see everyday. What happens is the target vehicle is holding up a line of cars. An overtaking opportunity presents itself. The lead car pulls out to overtake and the next car behind either follows him before he's completed the overtake. Or else the following car closes right up on the target.

What happens if something happens that necessitates the lead car abandoning his overtake and pulling back in behind the target. In either of the above situations he can't. Highly dangerous for all involved

Have to agree this is extremely dangerous. Also if the second car follows the lead overtaking car, the lead car may have room to overtake completly and safely, but the following car may not and as his view of the road ahead was obstructed by the lead car who he was effectevly tailgating during an overtake.:mad: As the second car only realises he can not complete the overtake when the first returns to the correct side of the road at that stage it is too late to do anything. This has probably led to many accidents

Vegeta · 22-07-2006 06:12PM

BrianD3 wrote:

Another thing I'd like to talk about is something that I reckon is one of the most dangerous practices on the road and something I see everyday. What happens is the target vehicle is holding up a line of cars. An overtaking opportunity presents itself. The lead car pulls out to overtake and the next car behind either follows him before he's completed the overtake. Or else the following car closes right up on the target.

What happens if something happens that necessitates the lead car abandoning his overtake and pulling back in behind the target. In either of the above situations he can't. Highly dangerous for all involved.

a guy did that to me once, i was over taking one car of a 2 car convoy and he sped up matching my speed and i could not pull in in front of him.

Idleater · 22-07-2006 08:15PM

BrianD3 wrote:

...So he was only accelerating when he was partly or fully on the other side of the road....

edit: I believe the Institute of Advanced Motorists actually recommends the above technique

This is interesting, because the second option seems rationally to be safer for all road users concerned.

I have done the RoSPA advanced test for the motorcycle and I was taught that observation and assessment of the situation is paramount. Reducing the distance to "tailgaiting" does not seem to tally with that.

Is there anyone who has done the IAM or RoSPA for cars that can say why the "tailgaiting" method is the safer option?

Having said all that, with the motorbike, an overtaking manoeuver is much easier and faster to complete. Leapfrogging on a bike is also very easy and by the time the car drivers have woken up to complain you are gone on again a couple of cars.

Personally I use the long distance overtake despite the torque and power redily at hand.

L.

Squirrel · 22-07-2006 08:21PM

The only way I ever see done from inside the car is when my dad does it. He'll be driving behind the target in say 5th gear cruising along nicely, he'll see a gap coming and will change down to 4th and begin to close on the target, when he can see the car coming the opposite direction he'll get ready to shift to 3rd on some occassions and when the car passes he'll indicate and go, moving back up to 4th after the overtaking and then back onto a normal and legal speed.

From what I can tell it's the long distance lunge but he has an extra gear change to get revs up before he goes on the opposite side of the road

BrianD3 · 22-07-2006 08:46PM

nereid wrote:

This is interesting, because the second option seems rationally to be safer for all road users concerned.

I have done the RoSPA advanced test for the motorcycle and I was taught that observation and assessment of the situation is paramount. Reducing the distance to "tailgaiting" does not seem to tally with that.

Is there anyone who has done the IAM or RoSPA for cars that can say why the "tailgaiting" method is the safer option?

It was probably inaccurate to describe the IAM method as "tailgating" But it is a reasonable description as IIRC the IAM say you should move close to the car in front before overtaking. I think they advise leaving a 1 second gap to the target. This is called the "overtaking position". You only get into this position when an overtake is imminent. You have already assessed the situation from further back - the "following position".

But the point is you get quite close to the target and you don't accelerate hard until you've pulled out onto the other side of the road.

If the target slams on when you're in the overtaking position then it looks like you coud easily rear end him as you are closer than a normal safe following distance.

Hopefully someone with definite knowledge of IAM guidelines can verify this.

comanche · 22-07-2006 09:17PM

nereid wrote:

This is interesting, because the second option seems rationally to be safer for all road users concerned.

I have done the RoSPA advanced test for the motorcycle and I was taught that observation and assessment of the situation is paramount. Reducing the distance to "tailgaiting" does not seem to tally with that.

Is there anyone who has done the IAM or RoSPA for cars that can say why the "tailgaiting" method is the safer option?

Having said all that, with the motorbike, an overtaking manoeuver is much easier and faster to complete. Leapfrogging on a bike is also very easy and by the time the car drivers have woken up to complain you are gone on again a couple of cars.

Personally I use the long distance overtake despite the torque and power redily at hand.

L.

When doing the Hibernina Ignition course (run by IAM), one person was 'given out to' for tail gating a tractor he wanted to overtake coz he wouldn't be able to get a clear view of the road ahead - makes sense..

So what do you mean by tailgating - leaving a car length or breaking the 3 second rule?

I've no problem with breaking the 3 second rule before overtaking but coming into a car or two lenght before overtaking is just plain crazy for lots of reasons.

Idleater · 22-07-2006 10:41PM

BrianD3 wrote:

It was probably inaccurate to describe the IAM method as "tailgating" But it is a reasonable description as IIRC the IAM say you should move close to the car in front before overtaking. I think they advise leaving a 1 second gap to the target. This is called the "overtaking position". You only get into this position when an overtake is imminent. You have already assessed the situation from further back - the "following position".

But the point is you get quite close to the target and you don't accelerate hard until you've pulled out onto the other side of the road.

If the target slams on when you're in the overtaking position then it looks like you coud easily rear end him as you are closer than a normal safe following distance.

Hopefully someone with definite knowledge of IAM guidelines can verify this.

Cheers Brian, I would be in agreement with this. And I think that this is what is refferred to pretty much in method 2 in the Original Post.

I can imagine that their idea is that you make as much swift progress on your own side of the road and then you move into the opposing lane "at speed" so you overtake quickly.

I think that essentially this is the long range lunge but they would recommend staying in your own lane, following the target, for as long as possible, having carried out all the observation needed prior to beginning the "lunge".

When I did the bike course, it was definitely a no no to be close to the target vehicle while doing the same speed as the target vehicle. (this is akin to method 1 in the Original Post). In this position, you are challenging yourself to begin an overtaking maneouvre with insufficient observation and insufficient speed.

As far as I am aware, none of the Advanced Driving courses take into account the power/torque of the vehicle because the concepts apply generically across all vehicles. 1) observation, and this cannot be achieved from the tailgaiting position, 2) reaction, in the tailgaiting position you are relying on very fast reactions because of the lack of observation, i.e. you can't see clearly so you pull out but there is a car coming so you have to swerve back in again.

If you prepare the manouvre (in any vehicle) properly, then your observation will be done and you carry out the overtake using very few fast reactions. In fact, you leave the fast reactions to "emergency" get outs should the need arise rather than using the fast reactions to position the vehicle in the first place.

I think that Advanced Drivers can use the different torque/power of the vehicle that they are driving at that moment (it may be a car one day/bike the next/van etc etc) and they adapt the length of run in/ take account of the vehicle when choosing whether or not to perform the overtake, because the only difference that this makes to the actual procedure is the time it takes to complete the maneouvre.

L

unkel · 23-07-2006 12:17AM

It is very easy to overtake in a high power, high torque automatic transmission car. Driving behind the target vehicle keeping the usual safe distance and realising the opportunity to overtake, I just floor it and move into the other lane sooner rather than later. My autobox would change down from say 5th to 2nd or 3rd. I'd keep flooring it until back in the original driving lane and take my foot of the pedal

Glad to join peasant and anan1 in stating that the faster one overtakes, the safer. Yes regularly this means I'll break the speed limit. If I get done, I'll pay the fine and take the points. I'll do it again the next time

I do occasionally overtake multiple cars in one go, if I'm under the impression that others behind the front car do not intend to overtake. I wouldn't have to actively create an escape plan as I would only really do this on the typical national road, i.e. two very wide driving lanes with hard shoulders on either side. I have on occasion overtaken a large number of cars in the one go

Leap-frogging is a big no-no for me. Just too risky imo. I do however consider one convoy with a significant gap in it rather as two convoys which I would overtake one at a time

Torak wrote:

There is only one correct way to overtake

The majority of posters here disagree with you, myself included. It depends a lot on what vehicle is doing the overtaking. When you posted this, there was the distinction between fast and slow cars

I'll add a third category of car: the supercar. The main distinction between a fast car and a supercar is that the supercar moves into the opposite lane before accelerating

I'm glad nereid came along as motorcycles are very different from cars. Even slow motorcycles have similar acceleration to very fast cars. I'd go as far as saying that leap frogging can only be reasonably safe on a motorcycle

For ease of read I have not mentioned the use of indicators and mirrors, etc. in this post

cargrouch · 23-07-2006 11:20AM

unkel wrote:

Glad to join peasant and anan1 in stating that the faster one overtakes, the safer. Yes regularly this means I'll break the speed limit. If I get done, I'll pay the fine and take the points. I'll do it again the next time

I'll jump on that band wagon too. I remember the looks of horror at work one day when I said it. Now, my car isn't capable of hypersonic speeds, but it just seems obvious to spend as little time on the wrong side of the road as possible. To which people will say - if you can't complete the manouevre without breaking the limit then you shouldn't overtake. RUBBISH!

When I started driving I was told "treat everyone else on the road as if they are mentally deficient or unstable". Basically, if you go to crawl past someone who's 10mph below the limit, you don't know what they're gonna do (and I've seen some things). And that's just your side of the road. You can never say when that nice clear stretch you thought you had can turn into a deathtrap when two cars come round the corner at the end of the straight side by side. Meanwhile your stuck on the wrong side, beside a car driven by an unpredicable cabbage, probably in a gear/rev combination that does not give you the option of using power* to get you out of the situation.

*Not that this will apply to a "she's plenty nippy";) 1.4 golf or focus

unkel wrote:

Leap-frogging is a big no-no for me. Just too risky imo. I do however consider one convoy with a significant gap in it rather as two convoys which I would overtake one at a time

I rarely, if ever, see a chance to work my way up a convoy - Irish motorists are very possessive of their place in the queue and will maintain a a two car length gap at most to discourage anyone queue jumping. A prime example of this is the Cork to Macroom road on a Friday evening. Over 25 miles in convoy ranging (randomly!) from 60-80kph on a 100kph road. You can count the number of overtaking opportunities on one hand (based on 1.4 engine). But people push their luck, and that's why theres several people dead on that road in the last month.

mike65 · 23-07-2006 11:46AM

Hence the need for two+one roads where multi-lane highways can't be justified.

Mike.

Hobbes · 23-07-2006 12:01PM

TBH I can't see how being less then the safe braking distance behind the car prior to overtaking being anything except reckless.

I can understand closing up a 10+ car gap but not coming closer then safe braking distance.

If they were to slam on thier brakes you liable to hit them or swerve loosing control.

cargrouch · 23-07-2006 12:34PM

mike65 wrote:

Hence the need for two+one roads where multi-lane highways can't be justified.

Mike.

Yes, the stretch between Cork and Mallow is great - you only need to worry about what the mad people on your side of the road are doing, safe in the knowledge that it's only 2km to a safe overtaking spot so you can lose the dawdler in front of you.

Cork Macroom should be the same, as I can't ever seeing them build this alternative road there was so much fuss about years ago.

Overtaking technique

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