approaching armed police with a gun..

bealbocht · 20-07-2006 12:38PM #1

depression , or no depression, in my opinion, and I know this is not USA, and I know there is probably some other method that could have been used, but if you approach armed police with a shot gun, and refuse to put it down, you can expect to get shot, regreatable as the situation was in Longford.

Degsy · 20-07-2006 12:40PM

Cheers,thanks for that,i was going to do it but now i wont.:rolleyes:

Rovi · 20-07-2006 12:51PM

bealbocht wrote:

...there is probably some other method that could have been used...

By the look of it, the situation was undoubtedly badly handled, but considering the fact that he had already fired the gun 30 odd times from the house, he sealed his own fate when he came out with the gun closed (and therefore potentially loaded) and advanced towards the Gardai and refused to comply with orders to drop it.
I have no argument with the Gardai who fired the shots, they had to make a split-second decision regarding the publics, their colleagues, and their own safety, and they took the only course of action reasonably available to them under the circumstances.

daveirl · 20-07-2006 12:53PM

This post has been deleted.

TerrorFirmer · 20-07-2006 12:55PM

The whole thing is an absolute joke from the onset. In some instances, the light they're trying to shine on the merits of the case would make you swear the Response Unit had shot dead a random passer-by!

layke · 20-07-2006 01:12PM

18M???

Where was this tribunal held? The Cayman Islands with scrumptes and tea?

I demand receipts or the justice ministers head for that.

Anyway regarding the OP You walk towards any cop in the world with a potentially loaded weapon after warnings and your dead. Except in Ireland, where it's a debate.

Tools.

daveirl · 20-07-2006 01:16PM

This post has been deleted.

bealbocht · 20-07-2006 01:24PM

Mental health professionals are not too happy. The family (understandably) and people in Longford, who seem to thing he would have been down the pub later having a laugh about it, if he had been left alone.

It all seems to up an edge on the scenes in Fr Ted, the yer' man with the I shot JR t-shirt shot the crow, or holds up the post office to avoid filling out the forms.

Sleepy · 20-07-2006 01:38PM

In America that's known as 'suicide by cop'.

Feel sorry for the poor Gardai being investigated. They were doing their jobs for fecks sake.

Miguel_Sanchez · 20-07-2006 01:42PM

I think the situation was handled badly - they probably should have got the solicitor for him to talk to and maybe gave him some smokes. When somebody is obviously unbalanced denying them things like that doesn't seem to serve any purpose but to aggravate them more.

But once he left the house I don't really think the Guards had any other option.

Stephen · 20-07-2006 03:01PM

No matter how mentally unbalanced he was, the armed gardaí should hardly be expected to stand there and let him approach them with a possibly loaded shotgun.

lostexpectation · 20-07-2006 03:08PM

the title should be "police with guns approaching man with mental health issues and a gun"

whiskeyman · 20-07-2006 03:17PM

The issue is similiar to the Mendez Shooting in Stockwell.
You can't seriously blame the ARU for killing Carthy and carrying out their orders.
However, you have to blame the serious lapses in judgement and command from those in charge that let to that fatal scenario come around.

Ag marbh · 20-07-2006 03:22PM

I love when people state the obvious

quad_red · 20-07-2006 03:23PM

Shock! Approaching Gardai with weapon and refusing to obey instructions to drop said weapon may result in one getting shot.

Yes, the option for non lethal weapons probably should have been there.

But the very people who berate the Gardai for not using a non-lethal option would have been the same ones whining had such weapons been introduced.

This isn't Beverly Hills cop where one can get shot in the shoulder and walk away.

It's a terrible thing. But the guy got himself into the situation.

layke · 20-07-2006 03:30PM

Stephen wrote:

No matter how mentally unbalanced he was, the armed gardaí should hardly be expected to stand there and let him approach them with a possibly loaded shotgun.

If I was a guard and I knew this guy with a gun was mentally unblanaced it would make me twice as fearful.

Vegeta · 20-07-2006 03:50PM

I don't blame the guys at the scene. They are not equiped or trained to deal with this. The guy had issues sure and he approached the garda with a potentially loaded shotgun.

a rubber bullet
a marksman
attack dogs
high power water cannon
tear gas
flash bang

the thing is the siege went on for so long that they had time to evaluate quite a few scenarios. These are just a few things i think might have worked and i know nothing about siege situations. Maybe they should have to play rainbow six games as training.

the ERU needs to be better trained

civdef · 20-07-2006 04:18PM

the title should be "police with guns approaching man with mental health issues and a gun"

That would certainly make for an interesting study in spin doctoring.

Non-lethal weapons are a bit of a red herring. As long as the suspect has a firearm, non-lethal weapons are off the table.

17HMR · 20-07-2006 04:28PM

The Politically Correct love this sort of thing - until the guy with the guy lives next door and starts shooting at them....

While I firmly believe that the Gardai are poorly managed, the guys on the ground on the day really could not have done any different.

I'm sure that in any other country Carthy would have been would not have managed two steps up the path alive had he continued to hold on to the shotgun.

Anyone who hunts knows the difficulty in accurately shooting a living, moving and unpredictable target. Add to this unpredictability the fact that the target is armed and may at any time shoot you, your colleagues or anyone else in range (and, in fairness, had the scene been properly managed, no one else should have been in range) and you start to get a glimpse up what the ERU were up against.

This notion of non-lethal response (NLR) is all very well in theory. But what NLR can guarantee that the guy with the gun won't get a shot or two off ?

This situation should never have come about.
The guy shouldn't have been allowed to own a shotgun.

However, it did come about and the Gardai, given their available resources and training did as good a job as anyone could ask of them.

J.R.HARTLEY · 20-07-2006 04:33PM

Vegeta wrote:

I don't blame the guys at the scene. They are not equiped or trained to deal with this. The guy had issues sure and he approached the garda with a potentially loaded shotgun.

a rubber bullet
a marksman
attack dogs
high power water cannon
tear gas
flash bang

the thing is the siege went on for so long that they had time to evaluate quite a few scenarios. These are just a few things i think might have worked and i know nothing about siege situations. Maybe they should have to play rainbow six games as training.

the ERU needs to be better trained

flash bang wouldn't have been as effective outside, and they wouldn't get the water cannon off the RUC/PSNI for one man. the problem which many seem to have missed is how the man who had a history of mental illness got a bloody gun licence in the first place.

seamus · 20-07-2006 04:34PM

As civdef says, non-lethal weapons are a thorny issue. Although they're called "non-lethal", they're only called that insofar as they're not specifically designed to cause death. It doesn't mean that they won't cause death, or permanent injury. And permanent injury leads to litigation.
If the suspect presents an immediate threat to any persons, the best course of action is a fatal wounding. Police forces across the planet are trained to shoot-to-kill, not shoot-to-disarm. The consequences of simply wounding an already desparate person are just not worth it.

Whether the suspect would be "down the pub laughing about it" that night is irrelevant. That doesn't negate the threat they pose. I'm sure that plenty of the drug-dealing scum who regularly shoot eachother are down the pub having a laugh a few hours after having shot someone dead. Does this mean that the Gardai would be heartless to shoot them if they were caught in the act?

As layke says, if a mental health professional came running up saying "He's not right in the head", I'd be doubly cautious.

The issue in this case is not that the man died. That happened, and it happened for legitimate reasons. The issue is the chain of events leading to his death. Primarily - the fact that he was allowed to hold and keep a gun despite being a complete lunatic, and secondaryily the fact that he was living in public despite a history of offensive and threatening behaviour.
This happens across the country - complete and utter lunatics living alone in a tiny cottage down the country, who are by any measure dangerous individuals, are allowed to hold weaponry and are left alone by the authorities to avoid the hassle.

Diogenes · 20-07-2006 04:41PM

Vegeta wrote:

I don't blame the guys at the scene. They are not equiped or trained to deal with this. The guy had issues sure and he approached the garda with a potentially loaded shotgun.

Lets look at how effective each of these tactics would be with a loaded shotgun

a rubber bullet

Not a 100% way to take someone out, and they've got dubious aim.

a marksman

Which is what they used in the end.

attack dogs

You'd use an attack dog on a man with a gun?

"Get him fido"

"grrrrr woof woof"

BANG.....

high power water cannon

Watercannons are for crowd control. Hit a guy with a gun, both he and the gun will go flying, the gun could go off, and hit someone.

tear gas

Doesn't instantly disable, you can see people running around in teargas. He can still shoot.

flash bang

Still can shoot, and shoot blind. How do you get the gun off him?

the thing is the siege went on for so long that they had time to evaluate quite a few scenarios. These are just a few things i think might have worked and i know nothing about siege situations. Maybe they should have to play rainbow six games as training.

Yeah I think you've been playing just a tad too much rainbow six.

End of the day someone approachs with a loaded gun, the only response is to shoot, shoot to kill.

20-07-2006 04:48PM

Why do private citizens need to have guns in the first place? Most are not trained to use them properly, and only think they know what they are doing until they pull a Vice President Dick Chainey (sp?) and shoot a friend after too much to drink. Read once that there are over 300 million guns owned by private citizens in the USA. And that's in a country with only 285 million people, including infants and aged. That means some people have more than one gun and are armed to the teeth! Was in a farming mid-West city of USA one New Year's Eve, and was told to stay indoors at midnight because of the danger of being hit by rounds fired into the air by celebrating drunks with guns.:eek:

Clare gunner · 20-07-2006 04:50PM

CLUSTER f88CK FROM THE WORD GO!!!
The ERU was/is not trained in handling this sort of a situation.It starts with the mindset of the personel, ["Deres de target boys,waste de fecker"],
the equipment issued[UZIs and HK sub machine guns are a battlefield weapon,not and NEVER should be used in a police situation.] Non leathl resonse was non existant or known of
The history of the ERU pre Abbylara and post has been one of disasters,bystanders injured, one their own killed by friendly fire.It had never had any experiance in dealing with a deranged shooter,rather it is geared to firefights with the IRA.
The containment and most importantly the negotiation phase was everything that should not have been in a siege situation.
Questions have to be asked
Why was it not possible to plan with such an "elite" unit a similtaneous dynamic entry into such a small house at 3am when Carthy slept???
Reason given it was "too risky", for whom?? But the ERU could sneak up to the windows and check out where Carthy was sleeping.
2]If no one wanted to risk an immediate dynamic entry, or when Carthy came out the door,why was the K9 unit not available, to set at least four dogs on him?He might have got two dogs ,but another two would have taken him down.Dogs are expendable in such a situation.Or are our police dogs as efficent as our ERU??
3] Why was CS gas not used?? The claim that the Gardai are not trained is ludcrious,they could have contacted the Army who has it for riot control,and the method and training to use it.Carthy unless he had a gas mask in the house,would have been incapable of doing anything.
All in all the fault lies squarely on Garda C&C and those who were in charge.
They should have the decency to resign,and the ERU disbanded and reformatted under proper modern SWAT training methods.

J.R.HARTLEY · 20-07-2006 04:55PM

Clare gunner wrote:

All in all the fault lies squarely on Garda C&C and those who were in charge.
They should have the decency to resign,and the ERU disbanded and reformatted under proper modern SWAT training methods.

wrong it lies with whoever gave a mentally unbalanced man a gun licence. the situation should never have arisen. and as for your critical analysis of the ERU, i'd rather an experts view.

Clare gunner · 20-07-2006 05:00PM

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Why do private citizens need to have guns in the first place?

In the USA it is called the second amendment.

Most are not trained to use them properly, and only think they know what they are doing until they pull a Vice President Dick Chainey (sp?) and shoot a friend after too much to drink.

Really??Was VP Cheney drunk??? The media missed that one Millions of hunters,target shooters and gun owners in the USA would disagree with you on that one.

Clare gunner · 20-07-2006 05:03PM

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

wrong it lies with whoever gave a mentally unbalanced man a gun licence. the situation should never have arisen. and as for your critical analysis of the ERU, i'd rather an experts view.

Oh ! I'm sorry are you an expert???I can PM you my qualifications.
BTW the police gave him the liscense and his doctor signed off on it. QED

cushtac · 20-07-2006 05:06PM

Clare gunner wrote:

[UZIs and HK sub machine guns are a battlefield weapon,not and NEVER should be used in a police situation.]

Notwithstanding the fact that the Gardai do not currently use HK submachine guns, HK weapons are in service with many police forces.

Clare gunner wrote:

Why was CS gas not used?? The claim that the Gardai are not trained is ludcrious,they could have contacted the Army who has it for riot control,and the method and training to use it.Carthy unless he had a gas mask in the house,would have been incapable of doing anything.

The Gardai didn't have it at the time, so why would they have been trained in it? Apart from the serious & tricky legal issued involved in allowing soldiers to use force against a member of the public, the Army train in using it in riots in open areas, not in it's use in confined spaces to end a siege. There's no guarantee that getting the Army to lob CS in wouldn't have resulted in an identical or similar end result.

Clare gunner wrote:

and the ERU disbanded and reformatted under proper modern SWAT training methods.

Senior ERU team members periodically attend courses with the likes of the FBI & French police.

lostexpectation · 20-07-2006 05:07PM

civdef wrote:

That would certainly make for an interesting study in spin doctoring.

Non-lethal weapons are a bit of a red herring. As long as the suspect has a firearm, non-lethal weapons are off the table.

what spin doctoring?? The is factual statement of the situation, which thread title tries to reverse, I didn't mention lethal weapons, the guy was in his house with a gun the police came to him

astrofool · 20-07-2006 05:14PM

As anyone who has watched Bowling for Columbine knows, the Canadians have as high gun ownership as the US, but far far far less gun murders, so its definitely culture related. I do get the feeling that if the Irish were ever allowed guns constitutionally, that we'd end up going overboard with them and probably worse than the US.

Saying that, when I was over there (the US), I had a guy show me his: pump action shotgun, uranium sighted handgun and a rifle with scope on it, he also had a concealed weapon license, but also made damn sure that none were loaded, did I feel unsafe at all about it? no, yet over here I probably would feel unsafe due to lack of knowledge and sense about guns.

Oh and on topic, the garda let him get two steps too far tbh, he should have been shot as soon as he came out of the place armed.

Clare gunner · 20-07-2006 05:21PM

cushtac wrote:

Senior ERU team members periodically attend courses with the likes of the FBI & French police.

Hmmm dont mention the FBI around Abbylara!!Considering that they are not exactly paragons of saving human lives.Remember Waco or Ruby Ridge??
nor was their statement on Abbylara very helpful,as to why the Gaurds didnt shoot Carthy sooner.[Or possibly why they didnt drive a flame thrower tank into the house].
Yes,you can attend courses,but it is what is taken from them,and then wether it is applied to situation you can use.Or wether you are allowed to use it.That it does not contravene current policy or procedure.

approaching armed police with a gun..

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