approaching armed police with a gun..

bealbocht

depression , or no depression, in my opinion, and I know this is not USA, and I know there is probably some other method that could have been used, but if you approach armed police with a shot gun, and refuse to put it down, you can expect to get shot, regreatable as the situation was in Longford.

Degsy

Cheers,thanks for that,i was going to do it but now i wont.:rolleyes:

Rovi

bealbocht wrote:

...there is probably some other method that could have been used...

By the look of it, the situation was undoubtedly badly handled, but considering the fact that he had already fired the gun 30 odd times from the house, he sealed his own fate when he came out with the gun closed (and therefore potentially loaded) and advanced towards the Gardai and refused to comply with orders to drop it.
I have no argument with the Gardai who fired the shots, they had to make a split-second decision regarding the publics, their colleagues, and their own safety, and they took the only course of action reasonably available to them under the circumstances.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

TerrorFirmer

The whole thing is an absolute joke from the onset. In some instances, the light they're trying to shine on the merits of the case would make you swear the Response Unit had shot dead a random passer-by!

layke

18M???

Where was this tribunal held? The Cayman Islands with scrumptes and tea?

I demand receipts or the justice ministers head for that.

Anyway regarding the OP You walk towards any cop in the world with a potentially loaded weapon after warnings and your dead. Except in Ireland, where it's a debate.

Tools.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

bealbocht

Mental health professionals are not too happy. The family (understandably) and people in Longford, who seem to thing he would have been down the pub later having a laugh about it, if he had been left alone.

It all seems to up an edge on the scenes in Fr Ted, the yer' man with the I shot JR t-shirt shot the crow, or holds up the post office to avoid filling out the forms.

Sleepy

In America that's known as 'suicide by cop'.

Feel sorry for the poor Gardai being investigated. They were doing their jobs for fecks sake.

Miguel_Sanchez

I think the situation was handled badly - they probably should have got the solicitor for him to talk to and maybe gave him some smokes. When somebody is obviously unbalanced denying them things like that doesn't seem to serve any purpose but to aggravate them more.

But once he left the house I don't really think the Guards had any other option.

Stephen

No matter how mentally unbalanced he was, the armed gardaí should hardly be expected to stand there and let him approach them with a possibly loaded shotgun.

lostexpectation

the title should be "police with guns approaching man with mental health issues and a gun"

whiskeyman

The issue is similiar to the Mendez Shooting in Stockwell.
You can't seriously blame the ARU for killing Carthy and carrying out their orders.
However, you have to blame the serious lapses in judgement and command from those in charge that let to that fatal scenario come around.

Ag marbh

I love when people state the obvious

quad_red

Shock! Approaching Gardai with weapon and refusing to obey instructions to drop said weapon may result in one getting shot.

Yes, the option for non lethal weapons probably should have been there.

But the very people who berate the Gardai for not using a non-lethal option would have been the same ones whining had such weapons been introduced.

This isn't Beverly Hills cop where one can get shot in the shoulder and walk away.

It's a terrible thing. But the guy got himself into the situation.

layke

Stephen wrote:

No matter how mentally unbalanced he was, the armed gardaí should hardly be expected to stand there and let him approach them with a possibly loaded shotgun.

If I was a guard and I knew this guy with a gun was mentally unblanaced it would make me twice as fearful.

Vegeta

I don't blame the guys at the scene. They are not equiped or trained to deal with this. The guy had issues sure and he approached the garda with a potentially loaded shotgun.

a rubber bullet
a marksman
attack dogs
high power water cannon
tear gas
flash bang


the thing is the siege went on for so long that they had time to evaluate quite a few scenarios. These are just a few things i think might have worked and i know nothing about siege situations. Maybe they should have to play rainbow six games as training.

the ERU needs to be better trained

civdef

the title should be "police with guns approaching man with mental health issues and a gun"

That would certainly make for an interesting study in spin doctoring.

Non-lethal weapons are a bit of a red herring. As long as the suspect has a firearm, non-lethal weapons are off the table.

17HMR

The Politically Correct love this sort of thing - until the guy with the guy lives next door and starts shooting at them....

While I firmly believe that the Gardai are poorly managed, the guys on the ground on the day really could not have done any different.

I'm sure that in any other country Carthy would have been would not have managed two steps up the path alive had he continued to hold on to the shotgun.

Anyone who hunts knows the difficulty in accurately shooting a living, moving and unpredictable target. Add to this unpredictability the fact that the target is armed and may at any time shoot you, your colleagues or anyone else in range (and, in fairness, had the scene been properly managed, no one else should have been in range) and you start to get a glimpse up what the ERU were up against.

This notion of non-lethal response (NLR) is all very well in theory. But what NLR can guarantee that the guy with the gun won't get a shot or two off ?

This situation should never have come about.
The guy shouldn't have been allowed to own a shotgun.

However, it did come about and the Gardai, given their available resources and training did as good a job as anyone could ask of them.

J.R.HARTLEY

Vegeta wrote:

I don't blame the guys at the scene. They are not equiped or trained to deal with this. The guy had issues sure and he approached the garda with a potentially loaded shotgun.

a rubber bullet
a marksman
attack dogs
high power water cannon
tear gas
flash bang


the thing is the siege went on for so long that they had time to evaluate quite a few scenarios. These are just a few things i think might have worked and i know nothing about siege situations. Maybe they should have to play rainbow six games as training.

the ERU needs to be better trained

flash bang wouldn't have been as effective outside, and they wouldn't get the water cannon off the RUC/PSNI for one man. the problem which many seem to have missed is how the man who had a history of mental illness got a bloody gun licence in the first place.

seamus

As civdef says, non-lethal weapons are a thorny issue. Although they're called "non-lethal", they're only called that insofar as they're not specifically designed to cause death. It doesn't mean that they won't cause death, or permanent injury. And permanent injury leads to litigation.
If the suspect presents an immediate threat to any persons, the best course of action is a fatal wounding. Police forces across the planet are trained to shoot-to-kill, not shoot-to-disarm. The consequences of simply wounding an already desparate person are just not worth it.

Whether the suspect would be "down the pub laughing about it" that night is irrelevant. That doesn't negate the threat they pose. I'm sure that plenty of the drug-dealing scum who regularly shoot eachother are down the pub having a laugh a few hours after having shot someone dead. Does this mean that the Gardai would be heartless to shoot them if they were caught in the act?

As layke says, if a mental health professional came running up saying "He's not right in the head", I'd be doubly cautious.

The issue in this case is not that the man died. That happened, and it happened for legitimate reasons. The issue is the chain of events leading to his death. Primarily - the fact that he was allowed to hold and keep a gun despite being a complete lunatic, and secondaryily the fact that he was living in public despite a history of offensive and threatening behaviour.
This happens across the country - complete and utter lunatics living alone in a tiny cottage down the country, who are by any measure dangerous individuals, are allowed to hold weaponry and are left alone by the authorities to avoid the hassle.

Diogenes

Vegeta wrote:

I don't blame the guys at the scene. They are not equiped or trained to deal with this. The guy had issues sure and he approached the garda with a potentially loaded shotgun.

Lets look at how effective each of these tactics would be with a loaded shotgun

a rubber bullet

Not a 100% way to take someone out, and they've got dubious aim.

a marksman

Which is what they used in the end.

attack dogs

You'd use an attack dog on a man with a gun?

"Get him fido"

"grrrrr woof woof"

BANG.....

high power water cannon

Watercannons are for crowd control. Hit a guy with a gun, both he and the gun will go flying, the gun could go off, and hit someone.

tear gas

Doesn't instantly disable, you can see people running around in teargas. He can still shoot.

flash bang

Still can shoot, and shoot blind. How do you get the gun off him?

the thing is the siege went on for so long that they had time to evaluate quite a few scenarios. These are just a few things i think might have worked and i know nothing about siege situations. Maybe they should have to play rainbow six games as training.

Yeah I think you've been playing just a tad too much rainbow six.

End of the day someone approachs with a loaded gun, the only response is to shoot, shoot to kill.

Black Swan

Why do private citizens need to have guns in the first place? Most are not trained to use them properly, and only think they know what they are doing until they pull a Vice President Dick Chainey (sp?) and shoot a friend after too much to drink. Read once that there are over 300 million guns owned by private citizens in the USA. And that's in a country with only 285 million people, including infants and aged. That means some people have more than one gun and are armed to the teeth! Was in a farming mid-West city of USA one New Year's Eve, and was told to stay indoors at midnight because of the danger of being hit by rounds fired into the air by celebrating drunks with guns.:eek:

Clare gunner

CLUSTER f88CK FROM THE WORD GO!!!
The ERU was/is not trained in handling this sort of a situation.It starts with the mindset of the personel, ["Deres de target boys,waste de fecker"],
the equipment issued[UZIs and HK sub machine guns are a battlefield weapon,not and NEVER should be used in a police situation.] Non leathl resonse was non existant or known of
The history of the ERU pre Abbylara and post has been one of disasters,bystanders injured, one their own killed by friendly fire.It had never had any experiance in dealing with a deranged shooter,rather it is geared to firefights with the IRA.
The containment and most importantly the negotiation phase was everything that should not have been in a siege situation.
Questions have to be asked
Why was it not possible to plan with such an "elite" unit a similtaneous dynamic entry into such a small house at 3am when Carthy slept???
Reason given it was "too risky", for whom?? But the ERU could sneak up to the windows and check out where Carthy was sleeping.
2]If no one wanted to risk an immediate dynamic entry, or when Carthy came out the door,why was the K9 unit not available, to set at least four dogs on him?He might have got two dogs ,but another two would have taken him down.Dogs are expendable in such a situation.Or are our police dogs as efficent as our ERU??
3] Why was CS gas not used?? The claim that the Gardai are not trained is ludcrious,they could have contacted the Army who has it for riot control,and the method and training to use it.Carthy unless he had a gas mask in the house,would have been incapable of doing anything.
All in all the fault lies squarely on Garda C&C and those who were in charge.
They should have the decency to resign,and the ERU disbanded and reformatted under proper modern SWAT training methods.

J.R.HARTLEY

Clare gunner wrote:

All in all the fault lies squarely on Garda C&C and those who were in charge.
They should have the decency to resign,and the ERU disbanded and reformatted under proper modern SWAT training methods.

wrong it lies with whoever gave a mentally unbalanced man a gun licence. the situation should never have arisen. and as for your critical analysis of the ERU, i'd rather an experts view.

Clare gunner

Blue_Lagoon wrote:

Why do private citizens need to have guns in the first place?

In the USA it is called the second amendment.

Most are not trained to use them properly, and only think they know what they are doing until they pull a Vice President Dick Chainey (sp?) and shoot a friend after too much to drink.

Really??Was VP Cheney drunk??? The media missed that one Millions of hunters,target shooters and gun owners in the USA would disagree with you on that one.

Clare gunner

J.R.HARTLEY wrote:

wrong it lies with whoever gave a mentally unbalanced man a gun licence. the situation should never have arisen. and as for your critical analysis of the ERU, i'd rather an experts view.

Oh ! I'm sorry are you an expert???I can PM you my qualifications.
BTW the police gave him the liscense and his doctor signed off on it. QED

cushtac

Clare gunner wrote:

[UZIs and HK sub machine guns are a battlefield weapon,not and NEVER should be used in a police situation.]

Notwithstanding the fact that the Gardai do not currently use HK submachine guns, HK weapons are in service with many police forces.

Clare gunner wrote:

Why was CS gas not used?? The claim that the Gardai are not trained is ludcrious,they could have contacted the Army who has it for riot control,and the method and training to use it.Carthy unless he had a gas mask in the house,would have been incapable of doing anything.

The Gardai didn't have it at the time, so why would they have been trained in it? Apart from the serious & tricky legal issued involved in allowing soldiers to use force against a member of the public, the Army train in using it in riots in open areas, not in it's use in confined spaces to end a siege. There's no guarantee that getting the Army to lob CS in wouldn't have resulted in an identical or similar end result.

Clare gunner wrote:

and the ERU disbanded and reformatted under proper modern SWAT training methods.

Senior ERU team members periodically attend courses with the likes of the FBI & French police.

lostexpectation

civdef wrote:

That would certainly make for an interesting study in spin doctoring.

Non-lethal weapons are a bit of a red herring. As long as the suspect has a firearm, non-lethal weapons are off the table.

what spin doctoring?? The is factual statement of the situation, which thread title tries to reverse, I didn't mention lethal weapons, the guy was in his house with a gun the police came to him

astrofool

As anyone who has watched Bowling for Columbine knows, the Canadians have as high gun ownership as the US, but far far far less gun murders, so its definitely culture related. I do get the feeling that if the Irish were ever allowed guns constitutionally, that we'd end up going overboard with them and probably worse than the US.

Saying that, when I was over there (the US), I had a guy show me his: pump action shotgun, uranium sighted handgun and a rifle with scope on it, he also had a concealed weapon license, but also made damn sure that none were loaded, did I feel unsafe at all about it? no, yet over here I probably would feel unsafe due to lack of knowledge and sense about guns.

Oh and on topic, the garda let him get two steps too far tbh, he should have been shot as soon as he came out of the place armed.

Clare gunner

cushtac wrote:

Senior ERU team members periodically attend courses with the likes of the FBI & French police.

Hmmm dont mention the FBI around Abbylara!!Considering that they are not exactly paragons of saving human lives.Remember Waco or Ruby Ridge??
nor was their statement on Abbylara very helpful,as to why the Gaurds didnt shoot Carthy sooner.[Or possibly why they didnt drive a flame thrower tank into the house].
Yes,you can attend courses,but it is what is taken from them,and then wether it is applied to situation you can use.Or wether you are allowed to use it.That it does not contravene current policy or procedure.

J.R.HARTLEY

Clare gunner wrote:

Oh ! I'm sorry are you an expert???I can PM you my qualifications.
BTW the police gave him the liscense and his doctor signed off on it. QED

No i'm not an expert, which is why i would listen to the findings of the tribunal, but what i'm saying is whats you posted is your opinion,it's not necessarily true, and yes the Doctor signed off and another Garda gave the licence , but they obvioulsy weren't right were they? Is the doctor being investigated for helping an obvioulsy unbalanced man get a gun? thats what i can't reconcile, how can people blame the ERU when other people gave this man the gun in the first place, in a non-crisis situation with plenty of time for careful consideration (unlike the ERU). Did it not ring an alarm bell for the doctor that a man with a history of mental imbalance wanted a gun?

Anto McC

"Is this the way to Abbylara,all he wanted was 20 marlboro.........

Sorry i couldn't resist,it's a catchy tune!!!!!

rondeco

Clare gunner wrote:

Oh ! I'm sorry are you an expert???I can PM you my qualifications.
BTW the police gave him the liscense and his doctor signed off on it. QED

Please pm me your qualifications. I'm intrigued. Otherwise your argument is non valid

cushtac

Clare gunner wrote:

BTW the police gave him the liscense and his doctor signed off on it. QED

IIRC, Carthy's doctor signed off on it without actually seeing him in person.

Clare gunner

[

QUOTE=astrofool]As anyone who has watched Bowling for Columbine knows, the Canadians have as high gun ownership as the US, but far far far less gun murders, so its definitely culture related. I do get the feeling that if the Irish were ever allowed guns constitutionally, that we'd end up going overboard with them and probably worse than the US.

If you belive anything from Michael Moore,you will belive anything.:rolleyes:

Right_Side

Unfortunate but no other choice for the Gardaí. No complaint about their actions is viable.

Clare gunner

No i'm not an expert, which is why i would listen to the findings of the tribunal,

Well,then you are not listening very well,The Barr tribunal has slammed the Gardai and the ERU.

thats what i can't reconcile, how can people blame the ERU when other people gave this man the gun in the first place, in a non-crisis situation with plenty of time for careful consideration (unlike the ERU). Did it not ring an alarm bell for the doctor that a man with a history of mental imbalance wanted a gun?[/QUOTE]

They are supposed to be trained professionals in dealing with a situation like this.It is more difficult to deal with aqn armed gang in a shootout than some poor depressive armed with a double barrel.
Also the Gardai could have refused him under Irish firearms laws the liscense,as there is a section prohibiting anyone of unsound mind owning a firearm under Irish law.Back to the Gardai s court I'm afraid.

CLADA

I have always been uncomfortable about this tribunal, its chairman and the media reporting on it.
(1) Why was the psychologist not asked to explain why he recommended the return of a gun licence to John Carty while treating him for mental illness.
(2) Towards the end of the Tribunal why was the evidence of John Cartys ex girlfriend not allowed.
(3) Considering John died on the anniversary of his father and grandfather and fired thirty shots at gardai and emerged with a loaded shotgun and despite expert evidence why did Mr Barr totally dismiss the theory of suicide by cop.
(4) Prime Time reported that when the local Gardai arrived at the house John Carty emerged and fired a shot hitting the patrol car but IT WAS ONLY BIRDSHOT.

God knows this could happen to any of us as thousands are being treated for depression, I believe the report says the Gardai should not have been outside, what if by that stage he was completely over the edge could we have had another Columbine, Dunblane, Hungerford.

Clare gunner

rondeco wrote:

Please pm me your qualifications. I'm intrigued. Otherwise your argument is non valid

Certainly! If you publish here your name,address,phone number, a picture ID of yourself,passport,drivers liscense, to prove who you are and sign electronically an affidavit that you will use this information solely and for yourself and will not divulge it to anyone else,private,corporate or otherwise.Ill be only too happy to oblige!!

bealbocht

lostexpectation wrote:

what spin doctoring?? The is factual statement of the situation, which thread title tries to reverse, I didn't mention lethal weapons, the guy was in his house with a gun the police came to him

they were just passing were they ?? with nothing better to do ??

Clare gunner

God knows this could happen to any of us as thousands are being treated for depression, I believe the report says the Gardai should not have been outside, what if by that stage he was completely over the edge could we have had another Columbine, Dunblane, Hungerford]

Doubtful,Carthy wasnt that kind of case.Ryan and Hamilton apprently sat down for ages and planned their atrocity, and had a hell of alot more dangerous firepower than a double barrel shotgun
nor were they depressives.Also they came out of the blue, so to speak,and went on a shooting spree.
Carthy just wanted to be left alone and was contained within his house.What the report is saying is that the police shouldnt have been that up close and personal aggravating him.Maybe by falling back and establishing a proper outer cordon and getting Carthys doc or shrink up this could have been avoided.

AdMMM

I always find it humorous when people try and criticise the actions of the gardaí in these situations. Throughout this eintire revelation, there have been far too many armchair generals. The fundemental fact of the matter is that none of you were there. None of you were faced with the possibility of being 'blown away' by a madman and none of you had to make that split-second decision that some of you are now criticizing.

The gardaí made that decision based on their years of experience and training which isn't, of course, saying that there isn't a fault within the training itself.

CLADA

Does anyone know have all the men in charge on that day retired. If that is the case what happens next....

Rovi

CLADA wrote:

(4) Prime Time reported that when the local Gardai arrived at the house John Carty emerged and fired a shot hitting the patrol car but IT WAS ONLY BIRDSHOT.

I take it you've never seen anything (animate or inanimate) shot with 'only birdshot'?
At short range (0-20/30 yards or so, it's every bit as devastating as any other type of shotgun ammunition. At longer ranges (40/50 yards +), it's still well capable of blinding or maiming/disfiguring someone, or if they were particularly unlucky, even killing them.

I certainly wouldn't be getting all brave in front of a gun loaded with 'only birdshot' :rolleyes:

Edwardius

bealbocht wrote:

Mental health professionals are not too happy. The family (understandably) and people in Longford, who seem to thing he would have been down the pub later having a laugh about it, if he had been left alone.

I'm from longford and would have shot him sooner! I'm not sure how well equipped the gardai are as regards flashbangs and the like, but I don't think they're up to swat team levels. Although it is a bit ridiculous for the police to use uzis in a situation like that seeing as they're not exactly accurate, the media involvement was ridiculous too and negotiation may have been below par. But the point is he aimed a loaded shotgun in the direction of police officers more than once and also discharged it up to 30 times knowing that it could have caused injury or death. He may have been "depressed" but if he did manage to take someone out, I doubt the families and friends would have been overjoyed. It's another example of distancing people from their actions based on external circumstances "ah sure he was depressed" shouldn't be an excuse for anything of that magnitude. The situation may have been handled better but ultimately, a decision had to be made on the spot and it minimised the danger to the innocent bystanders.

Flukey

Whatever about shooting him, there was no need to kill him. He could have been stopped without killing him. It was badly managed from start to finish.

Diogenes

CLADA wrote:

(4) Prime Time reported that when the local Gardai arrived at the house John Carty emerged and fired a shot hitting the patrol car but IT WAS ONLY BIRDSHOT.
.

Did they know that Mc Carthy possessed only birdshot?

Did they know how much live ammo Mc Carthy possessed?

Could they be certain? Could this be verified?

The answer to all of the above is "No". So they had to assume when Mc Carthy left the house, that McCarthy was carrying a loaded shotgun with proper cartridges, when he left the house. Always assume a gun is loaded is the first thing they teach you when you walk onto a range. I assume it's the same with armed police.

CLADA

Sorry Rovi you misunderstood. I said I had a problem with media reporting because of that comment. I placed ITS ONLY BIRDSHOT in capital letters to show the attitude of the Prime Time programme. I always wondered if one of those uniformed Gardai had been killed in that first contact or one of the ERU killed subsequently would the media headlines have been vastly different i.e. "Crazed gunman kills Garda Hero"

Flukey

All true Diogenes, but they still did not have to kill him. These were trained marksmen. They could have taken him out without killing him. It doesn't matter if he came out like Rambo, armed with about everything you could think of, being the best shot in the world and with a history of extreme violence and disregard for life: They Did Not Have To Kill Him. End of story.

CLADA

I take it the two initial rounds into the legs were an attempt to put him down but were unsuccesful.