Things about us micks that drive you foreigners nuts...

mickoneill30 · 19-07-2006 01:58PM

I'm a mick (literally) but I've been living abroad for the last 8 years and I've come back here to settle down so I'm partly foreign.

What I don't like about the Irish is the constant moaning about how eeeeeverything is so expensive. What they're usually comparing our prices to are other countries where the standard of living is way below ours or where the wages are crap. Try living abroad for a few years on the locals wages and see if you can afford more or less.

I don't like the constant moaning about the roads and public transport. Both are a million times better than they were when I left 8 years ago. What do you want? Somebody to click their fingers and make it all better. Where I live every house has 2 or 3 cars parked outside it. That doesn't tie in with the "rip off Ireland". If we're all being ripped off how can anybody afford extra cars.

I don't like the way some girls here have no clue about belly tops over here (or muffin tops as they would more accurately be called). If your belly is overflowing your trousers then drawing attention to it is probably not the thing to do.

From my experiences abroad, the prices of items are more expensive but we get paid more. Traffic in every major city is diabolical. I got used to using public transport abroad (because a car in the city was just too pricey to run) and I've stayed with public transport now and I've been pleasantly surprised. Irish women are more attractive than I remember (but that might be a mixture of the summer months and an influx of foreigners, or maybe I'm just getting old).

Oriel · 19-07-2006 02:04PM

You can't talk to a guy from the North without talking about the ****ing Troubles. Then you accuse us of bringing up the subject!
Bastards.

ScottishDanny · 19-07-2006 02:09PM

What I don't like about the Irish is the constant moaning about how eeeeeverything is so expensive. What they're usually comparing our prices to are other countries where the standard of living is way below ours or where the wages are crap. Try living abroad for a few years on the locals wages and see if you can afford more or less.

Just as a point - if you buy groceries (especially drink) at UK prices (say in Newry or Derry) you get more and a greater selection so its fair to complain that you don't get what you pay for. Thats not a criticism of the country or the people but the economics.
I like nearly everything about living here except for folk not turning up on time but I accept it as 'Irish Time', and tired racist comments being bandied around. EG

TAXIMAN: This place has gone to the dogs since the immigrants came in
ME: Er, I'm an immigrant.
TAXIMAN: No you're alright, I mean the ****, Chinks and East Europeans. Coming over here and stealing our jobs
ME: Yeah I remember people used to say the same about 'The Micks'
TAXIMAN: 'Silence'

But then you get eejits everywhere...

LadyJ · 19-07-2006 02:15PM

ScottishDanny wrote:

TAXIMAN: This place has gone to the dogs since the immigrants came in
ME: Er, I'm an immigrant.
TAXIMAN: No you're alright, I mean the ****, Chinks and East Europeans. Coming over here and stealing our jobs
ME: Yeah I remember people used to say the same about 'The Micks'
TAXIMAN: 'Silence'

Lol,I've been in that situation manys a time,but I'm Irish so I'm usually just cringing!

I agree. I find that there is a lot of racism an intolerance in this country. And I think there should really be a lot more done (in schools etc.) to maybe nip that in the bud.

Ickle Magoo · 19-07-2006 02:18PM

joe_chicken wrote:

I don't mean to sound so aggressive, but from your points, it's seems like your views of this country have been solely based on reading the papers and watching the news... (for some points anyway) that's just the way it looks to me

Thanks for the patronising tone by the way

Yes, I don't leave the house....my views are solely from reading the papers & watching the news...as is all the others here who have pointed out similar or agreed with my points....we are completely blinkered to the truth....erm....

Sorry for any tone, on this post or previous. The thread asked for foreigners to say what drives them nuts about Ireland....I'm just a tad confused as to why anyone would systematically go through my opinions and try to dismiss them or get uber-defensive. If that's the way I see it - and I happen to know I am certainly not alone in seeing things that way - then that's the way I see it....unless you are a foreigner watching "typical" Irish life then I'm not sure how you would be able to see what I see anyway....:)

adonis · 19-07-2006 02:21PM

taximen read the sun - QED

also it would be completly naive to think that the church hasnt had an influence over the irish mentality in the past two/three decades...its probably residual at this stage too...

mickoneill30 · 19-07-2006 02:25PM

ScottishDanny wrote:

Just as a point - if you buy groceries (especially drink) at UK prices (say in Newry or Derry) you get more and a greater selection so its fair to complain that you don't get what you pay for.

I'm not disagreeing but in my job for what I do I get paid a really good wage here in Dublin. If I went to Newry or Derry I'm sure I'd get work but I'd expect to take a large paycut so the goods better be cheaper. Yes I can go up there from Dublin and do my shopping and complain about the price of Dublin but I wouldn't live up there (I like where I am and I'm comfortable). Similarly if I went to London I'm sure I'd get paid a fortune but it would cost me a fortune to live so at the end of the day I'm no better off.

RandomOne · 19-07-2006 02:29PM

LadyJ wrote:

Exactly.

This is all I'm saying.

I'm not saying that they control the country but they do have an effect on certain things.

Sorry LadyJ, I was trying to explain this in different words - agreeing rather than disagreeing with you.

HelterSkelter · 19-07-2006 02:29PM

Archeron wrote:

How and who? I dont see the church as having any affect on any aspect of society anymore...

So why do people feel the need to get married in a catholic church and have their children baptised when they don't believe/practise the religion themselves?

toomevara · 19-07-2006 02:32PM

I'm getting the impression, and I may be wrong here, that many of the posters are from North America and England, given the nature of some of the criticisms. So far most are valid to a lesser or greater degree, but i think many suffer from a lack of perspective. I would have to say that as someone who has lived and worked in Italy, spain, Portugal and England, and travelled extensively on work in the US.i've experienced the good and the bad in other societies.

A frequent offender here is the laid back culture and that definitely is an entirely valid criticism, but you aint even seen laid back until you've lived in Italy!! and as for bureacracy, while it is bad in ireland in relation to certain things..I would like you all to go and attempt to register as a foreign resident in Italy, its a salutary experience, byzantine in its intricacies and frustrations. Bureacracy in Spain and portugal is horrendous too and as for the 'manana' attitude in spain...Jeesus.....

I'd also take issue with the whole tired Catholic church thing...Thats something that no longer applies especially to the vast majority in the younger generations. While its still in the fabric of irish life largely due to its hegemonic position over so many years, the vast majority of irish are way out from under that yoke. yeah sure we get married, baptised and all the rest but dont be under any illusions, we are one of the most irreligious nations in Europe once you scratch the surface...personally I havent darkened the door of a church in twenty years (unless someone dies or gets married) and I'm entirely typical in that regard amongst my peers....

The work ethic may not be the best here in certain sectors (and it aint) but given a choice between that and the type of quasi-indentured slavery which exists in the US for so many employees in many different sectors..well I know where I'd rather be....

As for noseyness, hands up you got me there! But thats a legacy of the type of society we once were, and while it had a downside it also had an upside in terms of a very strong social fabric which embodied general concern for your fellows.

Also do bear in mind that Irish society today is virtually unrecognisable from even twenty years ago, I dont think any western European society has gone through such an unprecedented sea change, we've gone from being a mono cultural, totally homogenous, and indeed almost, in some cases, closed society to where we are today..so credit where credit is due....

None of this is to detract from your many valid critiscisms...Oh and a Final thought Dublin is NOT Ireland, and while many of you may look out from your metropolitan fastness and see an unleavened landscape of rubes, red necks and unsophistication, you couldnt be more wrong...Ireland is a very rich and subtle place, but it takes time and effort to get to know us and it....

RandomOne · 19-07-2006 02:39PM

mickoneill30 wrote:

I'm not disagreeing but in my job for what I do I get paid a really good wage here in Dublin. If I went to Newry or Derry I'm sure I'd get work but I'd expect to take a large paycut so the goods better be cheaper. Yes I can go up there from Dublin and do my shopping and complain about the price of Dublin but I wouldn't live up there (I like where I am and I'm comfortable). Similarly if I went to London I'm sure I'd get paid a fortune but it would cost me a fortune to live so at the end of the day I'm no better off.

I sort of agree, except I earn less here than I would in England. However, by the time you take tax, rates etc into account I'm about the same standard of living on an everyday groceries/utilities/rent as in the UK. Until I want to buy "luxury" goods, there's so little difference it's not worth doing the maths. However, whether an immigrant or not, setting up a first home with furniture, appliances and utensils etc is vastly more expensive even when you go for the cheap and cheerful options. I haven't looked into the house-buying situation yet, so possibly there's some set-off there, but I doubt many immigrants arrive with a house they've bought. I'm nowhere near the border so hopping over it isn't an option for me. It would be quicker and cheaper to get the ferry to Fishguard. Neither option is doing the Irish economy any favours.

toomevara · 19-07-2006 02:40PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

So why do people feel the need to get married in a catholic church and have their children baptised when they don't believe/practise the religion themselves?

Oh come on! The irish arent the only people who indulge in this sort of ritual hypocrisy when it comes to marriages, deaths, baptisms etc..... everyone does it, its a ceremony to mark a rite of passge and lots of people are distinctly shall we say 'uncommitted' when it comes to their faith whether they be protestant, jew, catholic, hindu...whatever..the event has a huge social significance and the ceremony captures that, It binds you to the community from whence you come. Look at the english or the french...totally irreligious in the main but they baptise, get married and are buried in church ceremonies.....paradoxically for most religion has little or nothing to do with it nowadays.....

HelterSkelter · 19-07-2006 02:48PM

toomevara wrote:

Oh come on! The irish arent the only people who indulge in this sort of ritual hypocrisy when it comes to marriages, deaths, baptisms etc..... everyone does it, its a ceremony to mark a rite of passge and lots of people are distinctly shall we say 'uncommitted' when it comes to their faith whether they be protestant, jew, catholic, hindu...whatever..the event has a huge social significance and the ceremony captures that, It binds you to the community from whence you come. Look at the english or the french...totally irreligious in the main but they baptise, get married and are buried in church ceremonies.....paradoxically for most religion has little or nothing to do with it nowadays.....

I am not saying it doesn't happen in other countries but it is Ireland we are discussing here. And to me this shows that the Church still has a certain grip over people, there is still the Catholic guilt factor going on.

joe_chicken · 19-07-2006 02:54PM

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Yes, I don't leave the house....my views are solely from reading the papers & watching the news...as is all the others here who have pointed out similar or agreed with my points....we are completely blinkered to the truth....erm....

I'm not saying that you don't leave your house... just that your criticisms are lazy, based on an old Oirish image that died a long time ago.

I'm not saying that there are no Irish people who are lazy, drunken or church fearing... but the Italians are lazier, the English are drunker and large parts of the USA are far more controlled by religion

RandomOne · 19-07-2006 02:54PM

toomevara wrote:

I'm getting the impression, and I may be wrong here, that many of the posters are from North America and England, given the nature of some of the criticisms. So far most are valid to a lesser or greater degree, but i think many suffer from a lack of perspective. I would have to say that as someone who has lived and worked in Italy, spain, Portugal and England, and travelled extensively on work in the US.i've experienced the good and the bad in other societies.

A frequent offender here is the laid back culture and that definitely is an entirely valid criticism, but you aint even seen laid back until you've lived in Italy!! and as for bureacracy, while it is bad in ireland in relation to certain things..I would like you all to go and attempt to register as a foreign resident in Italy, its a salutary experience, byzantine in its intricacies and frustrations. Bureacracy in Spain and portugal is horrendous too and as for the 'manana' attitude in spain...Jeesus.....

I'd also take issue with the whole tired Catholic church thing...Thats something that no longer applies especially to the vast majority in the younger generations. While its still in the fabric of irish life largely due to its hegemonic position over so many years, the vast majority of irish are way out from under that yoke. yeah sure we get married, baptised and all the rest but dont be under any illusions, we are one of the most irreligious nations in Europe once you scratch the surface...personally I havent darkened the door of a church in twenty years (unless someone dies or gets married) and I'm entirely typical in that regard amongst my peers....

The work ethic may not be the best here in certain sectors (and it aint) but given a choice between that and the type of quasi-indentured slavery which exists in the US for so many employees in many different sectors..well I know where I'd rather be....

As for noseyness, hands up you got me there! But thats a legacy of the type of society we once were, and while it had a downside it also had an upside in terms of a very strong social fabric which embodied general concern for your fellows.

Also do bear in mind that Irish society today is virtually unrecognisable from even twenty years ago, I dont think any western European society has gone through such an unprecedented sea change, we've gone from being a mono cultural, totally homogenous, and indeed almost, in some cases, closed society to where we are today..so credit where credit is due....

None of this is to detract from your many valid critiscisms...Oh and a Final thought Dublin is NOT Ireland, and while many of you may look out from your metropolitan fastness and see an unleavened landscape of rubes, red necks and unsophistication, you couldnt be more wrong...Ireland is a very rich and subtle place, but it takes time and effort to get to know us and it....

Wow! You asked the question, we answered as we see it and I've already stated I'm not in Dublin!!! :mad:

Magoo is Scots not English = important distinction.

Totally agree with you on the US work ethic and England's barely distinguishable from it nowadays. Ditto (anti)social attitude. This was my main reason for coming out here.

Errr, I think it was you called the Irish nosey, we call it friendly = interested! It's a good thing, not a criticism in my posts.

Totally agree other European countries are way worse in bureaucracy and manana attitude, but we're discussing Ireland!

I can't be doing with the Church discussion, it's all been said already.

English society is unrecognisable from 20 years ago. English moan but never complain. English bureaucracy is a mess. I'd hazard a guess that ex-pats will say the same about their country too. We're not saying anywhere is better than here, we're saying what we like/don't about Ireland, which is the question asked after all. And in at least two cases, laughing our heads off about all the negative points made.

So, to add to my original points - Irish humour is different so I don't always get yours and you (generic "you") rarely get mine.

adonis · 19-07-2006 02:58PM

toomevara wrote:

Oh come on! The irish arent the only people who indulge in this sort of ritual hypocrisy when it comes to marriages, deaths, baptisms etc..... everyone does it, its a ceremony to mark a rite of passge and lots of people are distinctly shall we say 'uncommitted' when it comes to their faith whether they be protestant, jew, catholic, hindu...whatever..the event has a huge social significance and the ceremony captures that, It binds you to the community from whence you come. Look at the english or the french...totally irreligious in the main but they baptise, get married and are buried in church ceremonies.....paradoxically for most religion has little or nothing to do with it nowadays.....

i wouldnt say it happens so much in France
maybe amongst catholics in france but it wouldnt be de riguer in france...im sure it happens in Jordan too...as there are catholics there..or in any location where the catholic church has an influence
but if u arent catholic u shouldnt get married in the church..

None of this is to detract from your many valid critiscisms...Oh and a Final thought Dublin is NOT Ireland, and while many of you may look out from your metropolitan fastness and see an unleavened landscape of rubes, red necks and unsophistication, you couldnt be more wrong

well what is it then? a rural society full of sophisticated technocrats?????

RandomOne · 19-07-2006 03:00PM

adonis wrote:

well what is it then? a rural society full of sophisticated technocrats?????

Nah - potato farmers.

(For those unsure, this is a joke!)

mickoneill30 · 19-07-2006 03:04PM

HelterSkelter wrote:

I am not saying it doesn't happen in other countries but it is Ireland we are discussing here. And to me this shows that the Church still has a certain grip over people, there is still the Catholic guilt factor going on.

It's a tradition thing. Where do you get married if you don't get married in a church? A registry office. Not great for the big day out. A lot of people care about that. Legally there are only certain places you can get married. Churches (of whatever denomination) and registry offices are about it.

How many couples live together before getting married these days. How many families have plenty of kids or does the rhythm method work?. Have a look at any church on a Sunday. When I was a kid you wouldn't get standing room. If you go in now when mass has started you'll be able to sit up the front. Where's all the Catholic guilt there?

joe_chicken · 19-07-2006 03:09PM

RandomOne wrote:

We're not saying anywhere is better than here, we're saying what we like/don't about Ireland, which is the question asked after all.

To make a valid point, you need to compare, otherwise you're just saying what you don't like about people in general

HelterSkelter · 19-07-2006 03:09PM

mickoneill30 wrote:

It's a tradition thing. Where do you get married if you don't get married in a church? A registry office. Not great for the big day out. A lot of people care about that.

Yes a registry office. I personally haven't been to a registry office wedding but my (catholic practising) parents have and they thought it was a very nice wedding. I think tradition plays some part but the old Catholic guilt definitely plays a big part.

mickoneill30 wrote:

How many couples live together before getting married these days. How many families have plenty of kids or does the rhythm method work?. Have a look at any church on a Sunday. When I was a kid you wouldn't get standing room. If you go in now when mass has started you'll be able to sit up the front. Where's all the Catholic guilt there?

The discussion is that the Catholic church still has a hold over a lot of Irish people, which I believe it does judging by the amount who get married in Catholic Churches and get their kids baptised.

RandomOne · 19-07-2006 03:13PM

mickoneill30 wrote:

Have a look at any church on a Sunday. When I was a kid you wouldn't get standing room. If you go in now when mass has started you'll be able to sit up the front.

Judging by the pouring of people coming out of my local church, they're all sitting at the back and middle then. They're also young families, middle-aged and elderly. Few teenagers which is, to be honest, what I'd expect the world over.

However, this is way off track for the original topic now.

HelterSkelter · 19-07-2006 03:14PM

Ickle Magoo wrote:

Sadly, it's not outdated....gay marriage, abortion, free contraception, etc, etc...these kind of things are all not available here because of the influence of the Catholic Church, be it on the state or in the pulpit...

Hmmm, I think gay marriage & abortion are down to people's personal opinions more than what the church preach. As for contraception not being available, where in Ireland do you live???!! Every shop/chemist/supermarket I go into seems to have them available and not hidden away but displayed where you can easily find them.

New_Departure06 · 19-07-2006 03:16PM

TAXIMAN: This place has gone to the dogs since the immigrants came in
ME: Er, I'm an immigrant.
TAXIMAN: No you're alright, I mean the ****, Chinks and East Europeans. Coming over here and stealing our jobs
ME: Yeah I remember people used to say the same about 'The Micks'
TAXIMAN: 'Silence'

LOL I don't use that sort of language, but I think some of this reflects the fact that we are broadly okay with immigration from rich countries because it is more moderate in scale, but often somewhat resentful of that from impoverished countries because that is really rapid at present and puts pressure on services, house-prices and job-security. So when you would say "I'm an immigrant" I think I have explained now why you would not be resented.

toomevara · 19-07-2006 03:18PM

RandomOne wrote:

Wow! You asked the question, we answered as we see it and I've already stated I'm not in Dublin!!! :mad:

Magoo is Scots not English = important distinction.

Totally agree with you on the US work ethic and England's barely distinguishable from it nowadays. Ditto (anti)social attitude. This was my main reason for coming out here.

Errr, I think it was you called the Irish nosey, we call it friendly = interested! It's a good thing, not a criticism in my posts.

Totally agree other European countries are way worse in bureaucracy and manana attitude, but we're discussing Ireland!

I can't be doing with the Church discussion, it's all been said already.

English society is unrecognisable from 20 years ago. English moan but never complain. English bureaucracy is a mess. I'd hazard a guess that ex-pats will say the same about their country too. We're not saying anywhere is better than here, we're saying what we like/don't about Ireland, which is the question asked after all. And in at least two cases, laughing our heads off about all the negative points made.

So, to add to my original points - Irish humour is different so I don't always get yours and you (generic "you") rarely get mine.

Perfectly valid points RandomOne...my thoughts weren't directed at you in particular at all, just a bit of leavening for the argument...and I did ask the question and really enjoying/learning from all the answers so far...

RandomOne · 19-07-2006 03:22PM

joe_chicken wrote:

To make a valid point, you need to compare, otherwise you're just saying what you don't like about people in general

I disagree with this. Certain traits are not as prevalent in other societies so they may not have engendered any particular like/dislike.

And saying something like: I like that it's green, but Switzerland is prettier - how does that validate anything?

How can you possibly judge when you've already misread just about everything that has been said due to your own perception/defensiveness.

Everything we say (Irish or not) is an opinion and therefore valid as such. IF I said: FACT: Irish are lazy drunks, I'd be wrong unless I could back it up with stat's compared to other nations. I doubt you'd ask me to validate my opinion on humour since this is immeasurable is it not!

I fear for your blood pressure. (Ironic when the common opinion is Irish are laidback) IF this was intended as a serious debate about what is wrong in Ireland it would be in the politics forum!

toomevara · 19-07-2006 03:25PM

adonis wrote:

but if u arent catholic u shouldnt get married in the church..

Agree one hundred percent...but it happens all the time and anyway what does not being catholic/protestant/jewish actually mean? How do you define it? Is it a birth/baptism thing. I know many people who are nominally catholic/protestant couldnt care leass about the teachings of the church, arent remotely devout but will happily marry, baptise and be sent to meet their maker in a church ceremony..its human nature.

adonis wrote:

well what is it then? a rural society full of sophisticated technocrats?????

how facetious,...no..its just a lot more variegated, sophisticated and broad than most people give it credit for.

RandomOne · 19-07-2006 03:25PM

toomevara wrote:

Perfectly valid points RandomOne...my thoughts weren't directed at you in particular at all, just a bit of leavening for the argument...and I did ask the question and really enjoying/learning from all the answers so far...

No worries, I didn't take it personally, but some folk on here seem to think the ex-pats are all in a little cluster together (in central Dublin presumably) sitting around saying how sh*t Ireland is.

And I'm loving this thread too.

adonis · 19-07-2006 03:36PM

toomevara wrote:

Agree one hundred percent...but it happens all the time and anyway what does not being catholic/protestant/jewish actually mean? How do you define it? Is it a birth/baptism thing. I know many people who are nominally catholic/protestant couldnt care leass about the teachings of the church, arent remotely devout but will happily marry, baptise and be sent to meet their maker in a church ceremony..its human nature.

If you are catholic i think u should go to mass and partake in what the hierarchy (in this case the vatican) want you to do.. i.e mass, baptism, all those other ceremonies.....
i would find it hypocritical to get married in a church as i dont feel any real affinity towards it..Certain members of my family would like me to do so, but as it is my choice i would marry somewhere else...

it certainly isnt human nature to get married in a church if u arent catholic but it might be another bad point of the irish being that we/they dont stray to far from what the cliquey and restrictive society wants them to do...or to keep up appearances..

how facetious,...no..its just a lot more variegated, sophisticated and broad than most people give it credit for.

yeah my dad was at a barman race down the main street of ennistymon -- where the barmen had to run down the main street holding a pint of guinness --terribly sophisticated...i like that though about the country, i was born there...but to say its sophisticated ? maybe in parts

joe_chicken · 19-07-2006 03:40PM

RandomOne wrote:

And saying something like: I like that it's green, but Switzerland is prettier - how does that validate anything?

Ok, that is stupid, but saying "I don't like the Irish flag cuz it's got stripes on it"

Is equally stupid

Oh yeah, as far as my blood pressure goes... I'm having a hoot... I love a good argument

eiretamicha · 19-07-2006 04:01PM

...large parts of the USA are far more controlled by religion...

Being raised in Central Florida, I can vouch for this 100%.

I wasn't going to contribute to this thread because I really didn't have much to complain about when I lived in Ireland...well besides the lack of jobs (I was in the north). Anyway, someone above mentioned marriage and weddings and I have to make a point in saying that one of the smaller reasons that my husband and I moved to the states was because we could not have the wedding that we wanted. In Ireland it had to be either in the church or at a registry office. Now, my husband is Catholic, and I am very spiritual and love my God, but am neither Catholic nor Protestant. We both desperately wanted an outdoor wedding in a forest but this was simply not possible in Ireland and was very upsetting to us because we wanted to be married there so all of his family could attend. We, of course, had a lovely wedding under the shade of trees at a historical state park in Florida, but none of his family could afford the plane ticket fees and that is one of my only regrets about our wedding.

Anyway, all this just to say that there are still some very old-fashioned rules and laws that, while I can understand are part of the culture over there, truly do need to be updated and/or done away with.

Overall though, I can't complain as we're making plans to move back (Donegal to be precise) sometime within the next year!

Things about us micks that drive you foreigners nuts...

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