Tricolour burnt on bonfire in North

LovelyHurling · 12-07-2006 08:53PM

solskjaer20 wrote:

Total disgrace.

What I want to know is, why didn't the RUC take down the ****in flag themselves?

Oh wait, I know, becasue they're a unionist police force, and most of the members probably suppport the erectinjg of the flag.

er.. no. because the RUC do not exist.

And anyone who says the PSNI is a unionist police force should go back (or go) to school. How many times do you need to be reminded this has nothing to do with unionism. Do you think TSir Reg or McGimpsey or Paisley or any of their men were out there erecting this? Of course not.

People just take for granted that it is unionists who have been supporting this action. name one unionist politician to do so. I can guarantee you the scum who insulted the McIrivines by doing this have probably never voted in their lives and cant explain the GF agreement

Ozzy · 12-07-2006 08:55PM

I was more disgusted about kid's name being on the flag than anything else. It's the kind of behaviour you'd expect from a fool.
But c'est la vie, c'est la guerre and stuff.

Diogenes · 12-07-2006 11:21PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

That's very twisted logic. If a kid is getting bullied at school the solution isn't to ignore it. You inform someone, teacher or parent, who confronts the bullies and the bullying stops. That's how it works in the real world.

Allegories seem to escape you. Fair enough. I'll try and do this in a more literal sense. The more you scream and shout, the more know they're getting to you. If you ignore them, they don't get a rise out of you, which the reason they're doing this, in the first place You cannot call for the police when someone "thinks" something wrong.

You are suggesting we ignore the disrespect they show to our flag which will only serve for this disrespect to continue.

No and once again my point seems to have escaped your grasp. Its a symbol. just that. nothing more. A symbol means exactly what you invest it. We cannot feed into this cycle, doing so lends them power.

You remind me of John Goodmans character in "Oh Brother where art thou" who dies trying to ensure the Confederate flag "is not polluted by touching the soil*" You spend too much time focusing on the symbol and not meaning behind it.

* I am not implying you are a racist or a KKK member just pointing out an allegory** about another character with a flag fixation.

**damn you won't get this either.

But the issue here isn't simply cloth like some napkin, it's what the cloth represents. By burning our flag they are sending out a vile message.

Yeah again it "represents", so its a represention. Theres no reason to get outraged over someone burning a representiation.

Well I suspose you can, if you don't understand that they're just trying to upset you, and the worst thing you can do is give into that baiting.

The child was murdered due to this kind of sectarianism - the kind you want us all to ignore. We need to stop the burning of cultural symbols and promote diversity and tolerance.

The "child's" name was Michael McIlveen, and this is the first time you've even come close to mentioning him in your posts on this thread.

Now I don't know you, or know what you feel but the fact of the matter is it's taken you three or four posts on this thread to even mention him, never mind mention him by name.

Again, I don't know you, but from your posts on this thread I'll have to take that your priorities don't lie with McIlveen or his family but on the slight on "your" flag.

I think that a big solution to the problems of bigotry and sectarianism is for people to stop putting symbols before human beings.

And in that respect, I suspect you are part of the problem not the solution.

When the bigots in Dublin ran amok during the February riots they were widely condemned and I want the same to happen in the North with regard to the scum who decide to burn our flag.

I notice, yet again, you fixate on the flag and not the murder of Michael McIlveen, a far more sectarian and more importantly tragic issue. I submit that judging from your posts, that you yourself are more interested in sectarian tribalism than in any interest or sympathy for his family.

While you are more interested in tribal victories and tribal slights that I am not interesting in hearing your "solutions" to the north.

Kernel · 12-07-2006 11:43PM

Mordeth wrote:

uh.. the shroud of turin is just cloth.. it was proved to be a fake quite a while ago now.

Actually, it's not been completely disproven (if you want to be pedantic and stray completely away from the symbolism point). They dated the fabric on a piece of the cloth from the outside - which was likely repaired/stitched onto the original.

To everyone spouting twisted logic of 'it's just a piece of cloth', so is a swastika flag, so nobody will mind if I hang one outside my house? A cross is just a piece of wood, so no problem with me burning that outside the local black family's house? The koran is just paper and ink, can I flush that down the toilet? Get real! Symbolism people, symbolism. Sometimes objects or icons have, like, meanings, like, ya know?
:rolleyes:

Kernel · 12-07-2006 11:45PM

Diogenes wrote:

No and once again my point seems to have escaped your grasp. Its a symbol. just that. nothing more. A symbol means exactly what you invest it.

Yeah, so what are they trying to say about their attitude to us when they burn a symbol that represent us? Not that they want to invite us for a picnic or crumpets and tea.

Brian Capture · 12-07-2006 11:56PM

The people who burned the tricolour as described have the same mentality as the idiot I saw in Killarney with OMAGH 98 written on the back of his Celtic jersey.

WhiteWashMan · 13-07-2006 12:15AM

its all fúcking jingoism at the end of the day.
they did this its a disgrace, so it allows us to go out and kneecap someone.

neither is right, but it shows there are idiots everywhere.

Diogenes · 13-07-2006 12:17AM

Kernel wrote:

Yeah, so what are they trying to say about their attitude to us when they burn a symbol that represent us? Not that they want to invite us for a picnic or crumpets and tea.

Nice and dandy but my point elludes you once again. They know what it represents. We know that aspects of Unionist culture hate us. But by losing the head and getting outraged , we play into their hands. Are we, as a society, so immature, that we cannot see a group of thugs burning a flag in an attempt to upset and provoke us, as just that? An attempt to upset and provoke us, and are you telling me we are incapable of mustering the maturity to rise above it, but instead must react and reduce ourselves to the same level of immaturity and bigotry?

Snowbie · 13-07-2006 12:52AM

zoro wrote:

If I, as an Irish person, were to burn an Irish flag, would that still be a symbol of hatred towards Ireland? Would it be disrespectful? Do I have a duty as an Irish citizen not to burn the Irish flag?

What kind of statement is that

,Why would you burn your own nations flag or any flag.Why lower yourself to that level.
Myself as an Irish person would never think of burning any flag let alone my own.
What do you think,ask yourself that question:(

Snowbie · 13-07-2006 01:00AM

zoro wrote:

Not quite what I asked ....

What's the difference between me burning the Irish flag, and a non Irish person doing it?

My point is that it is just a flag. It's cloth and no more than that. I didn't actually know that flag desecration was illegal though, but I do think that it's a ridiculous law. It goes against free speech and freedom of expression.

Put it in laymams terms to you,Burn an Irish flag on the Falls road and see if its a piece of cloth or not.They will most certainly not ask you if your Irish or not.Get my point

biko · 13-07-2006 02:32AM

Or you can beat up Martin McGuinness

Kernel · 13-07-2006 02:34AM

Diogenes wrote:

Nice and dandy but my point elludes you once again. They know what it represents. We know that aspects of Unionist culture hate us. But by losing the head and getting outraged , we play into their hands. Are we, as a society, so immature, that we cannot see a group of thugs burning a flag in an attempt to upset and provoke us, as just that?

I do recognise it is a provocative action, and I'm not outraged by it. As my first post in the thread stated, they are simply mindless idiots. I'm merely responding to the claims that items which carry a meaningful symbology are just cloth, or paper etc. They are symbols which represent certain beliefs, ideals, religions, national identities etc. and it is simply wrong to suggest otherwise.

By those idiots burning a flag representing my nationality, they are showing an illogical hatred to me and everyone else from here, but I'm not outraged, nor even surprised tbh. Think about it : to hate an entire nation or creed of people simply for your illogical, unrealised and unfounded fears of losing your heritage and national identity - or worse still, because you've been brought up to hate them for no reason at all....

I've got friends who are protestant (although the whole issue is more political than religious nowadays), I even know an ex-orange man and they would all share my view and seek to distance themselves from such mindless behaviour and stress that such people are extremes of that community and, basically, morons. The whole tradition is slowly dying off, because it's been taken over by scumbags and illogical bigotry.

For the record, I have no objection to the LOL marching, but it seems pointless to me that they have to march down streets occupied by people who they hate, and who don't want them on their street anyway. Triumphalism at its most base level. You don't see the RAF veterans association marching through Dresden to celebrate an historic battle against the Germans - yet we all agree that they are perfectly entitled to march in a place where it is appropriate and respectful to the sensitivities of those who live there all year.

As for the bonfire itself, the worst part of it was putting the name of a murdered teenager on it - showing them as cretins with emotional intelligence and morals of infantile levels at best.

zoro · 13-07-2006 08:40AM

Snowbie wrote:

What kind of statement is that ,Why would you burn your own nations flag or any flag.Why lower yourself to that level.
Myself as an Irish person would never think of burning any flag let alone my own.
What do you think,ask yourself that question:(

Why lower myself?! What on earth is going on inside that head of yours .... :rolleyes:
Am I a traitor to my nation by burning a piece of cloth? Am I somehow a lesser man for choosing to burn a rectangular shaped cloth (conveniently dyed green, white and orange) over, say, a tea towel (that may well have been dyed with the same colours, albeit in a different pattern)?

Ok, lets broaden the viewpoint here, even though I just know this statement will be picked apart:
Presume that I'm from Baghdad*. The Americans rush in to liberate me. I'm ecstatic that the dictator has been overthrown, and I burn the Iraqi flag in a display of defiance to the previous ruler (as was seen on various news reports at the time).
How is this different? Would I be a traitor to my country in this instance?
Where is the line drawn?

*Screw the politics, I'm trying to get down to your level to understand why you put more value on a flag than you do on a human life.

Snowbie wrote:

Put it in laymams terms to you,Burn an Irish flag on the Falls road and see if its a piece of cloth or not.They will most certainly not ask you if your Irish or not.Get my point

:rolleyes: Then I'd be jumped on by people that believe a flag is more important than someone's life. Pure, unadulterated, idiocy.

Diogenes · 13-07-2006 09:47AM

Kernel wrote:

I do recognise it is a provocative action, and I'm not outraged by it. As my first post in the thread stated, they are simply mindless idiots. I'm merely responding to the claims that items which carry a meaningful symbology are just cloth, or paper etc. They are symbols which represent certain beliefs, ideals, religions, national identities etc. and it is simply wrong to suggest otherwise.

See you kinda shoot yourself in the foot here.

You mentioned a Nazi flag earlier. I wouldn't particularly like you hanging a nazi flag outside your house. But I'd have a far greater problem with you acting and behaving like a Nazi. I mean which is worse, a swastika or rounding up the neighbourhood minorities and socialists and shoving them into your garden shed with some ZklonB?

People get too hung up on the symbolism and ignore the, as you say, ideas, religions etc....behind the symbolism. Which is the really important part? A symbol is just a symbol. A swastika was just a hindu symbol for well being before being co-op'd by the Nazis.

Also. Godwin's law applies.

By those idiots burning a flag representing my nationality, they are showing an illogical hatred to me and everyone else from here, but I'm not outraged, nor even surprised tbh. Think about it : to hate an entire nation or creed of people simply for your illogical, unrealised and unfounded fears of losing your heritage and national identity - or worse still, because you've been brought up to hate them for no reason at all....

I'm not outraged, and I'm not surprised. I'm annoyed by the people who think the flag is a bigger deal than the dead boy.

Snowbie · 13-07-2006 09:47AM

Zoro

Did you forget your history or have you ever done Irish history?
Do you not understand what went on in this country,seems to me you didnt.
A lot of people died for that piece of cloth in which your refering too.
Look that up and you will get your answers to all your questions.

Diogenes · 13-07-2006 09:52AM

Snowbie wrote:

Zoro

Did you forget your history or have you ever done Irish history?
Do you not understand what went on in this country,seems to me you didnt.
A lot of people died for that piece of cloth in which your refering too.
Look that up and you will get your answers to all your questions.

No alot of people died so we could be a free self determined people, of which the flag is a symbol that represents this. If you asked the average flying columnist what were they fighting for, they'd tell you that, the flag is just a symbol of that.

zoro · 13-07-2006 09:57AM

Snowbie wrote:

Zoro

Did you forget your history or have you ever done Irish history?
Do you not understand what went on in this country,seems to me you didnt.
A lot of people died for that piece of cloth in which your refering too.
Look that up and you will get your answers to all your questions.

Yes I did History - and that's a pretty stupid question. I've finished with the state's education system, and part of that was a compulsory Irish History section. However, I found it tedious and incredibly boring - but that's for another discussion.

As for "people died for the cloth" (edited slightly) - I sincerely think not...
I posted this a couple of pages back:
Do you think there was an onslaught of attacks on a building, in which "The Flag" was housed? Did men/women/children/dogs die in the defence of that flag? No. Never. EVER.
People fought, and died, for freedom. People continue to do so around the world.

NOONE died "for the flag" - they died for freedom, for the country. Substituting "the flag" for any of those, is irrational and illogical, for the flag is just a flag. Cloth, dyed and hung on a pole.

zoro · 13-07-2006 10:00AM

Diogenes wrote:

A swastikan was just a hindu symbol for well being before being co-op'd by the Nazis.

Damn - beat me to the punch

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ · 13-07-2006 10:26AM

Diogenes wrote:

A swastika was just a hindu symbol for well being before being co-op'd by the Nazis.

would that be the right facing or left facing one.
and i thought the Hindu one had dots in each segment of the cross.
but good point.

Terry · 13-07-2006 10:26AM

i need a crap and i'm out of toilet paper. i'm gonna use the green, white and orange piece of cloth i have to wipe my arse.
anyone got a problem with that?
if you do, then you need to ask yourself why.
i dislike the way our ancestors were treated by the brits as much as the next person. that doesn't mean i'm going to worship a piece of cloth and get all het up any time some mindless idiot decides to burn three colours.

fu(k them.
let them burn all the Irish flags they can get their hands on. i won't lose any sleep over and i don't think anyone else should.

but, but , but my grnadfathers uncle fought in 1916...

boo fu(king hoo. so did mine.
the brits are long gone. i still hold a bit of hatred in my heart, but it's not something i'm proud of. iut's time to let it all go.
we, as a country, kick arse now. we're richer than our former occupiers. they have nothing on us.
so some dick in antrim burns a tricolour. are you going to lose sleep over it?
i know i won't.
i'm not going to have a bonfire and burn a union jack. wanna know why? it's because symbolism means nothing to me.
I know i'm Irish. i don't need to drape myself in a flag and tell eveeryone. the knowledge that ii'm Irish is good enough for me.

io shouldn't use boards when i'm drunk.

zoro · 13-07-2006 10:28AM

julep wrote:

io shouldn't use boards when i'm drunk.

Keep it up

Terry · 13-07-2006 10:41AM

i've been drinking, albeit slowly, since 5pm yesterday.
i should probably stop, but i have some flags to burn.

note: i do not condone burning a flag with a murdered kids name on it. that was sick. other than that, burn my flag. i really don't care. christ, i'll blow my nose in the fu(king thing.

heY CSG, how you doin'?

Snowbie · 13-07-2006 10:48AM

zoro wrote:

Yes I did History - and that's a pretty stupid question. I've finished with the state's education system, and part of that was a compulsory Irish History section. However, I found it tedious and incredibly boring - but that's for another discussion.

As for "people died for the cloth" (edited slightly) - I sincerely think not...
I posted this a couple of pages back:
Do you think there was an onslaught of attacks on a building, in which "The Flag" was housed? Did men/women/children/dogs die in the defence of that flag? No. Never. EVER.
People fought, and died, for freedom. People continue to do so around the world.

NOONE died "for the flag" - they died for freedom, for the country. Substituting "the flag" for any of those, is irrational and illogical, for the flag is just a flag. Cloth, dyed and hung on a pole.

So you think Irish History was boring and tedious,so what do you care then,but yet you try to have an opinion which you are going off in tangents with.

So you say "NOONE" died for the flag,well after any great war on this planet including our 800 year struggle with Britain who we eventually gained our Freedom from was not symbolised by our flag in which they died from.

Russians hoisted a flag on the Reichstag in Berlin when they overthorough it in 1945 was also symbolised by the men woman and children too who also suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

The confederates and unions in American civil war and there war of Independence use to be led into war with the flags raised aloft in the frontlines in which those people died for.

But thats only a piece of cloth too,you would say.
If you paid attention in school instead of looking out the window while thinking History was boring and tedious you would know that a flag to many people nowadays is in fact representing people of a country in which they lived or died also freedom and power etc etc.
Its History and fact.

What disgusts me is the way in which they burnt the Tricolor with that lads name on it up North yesterday,but thats just there way of life up there and recurring scene every year from that minority.

Kernel · 13-07-2006 10:58AM

Diogenes wrote:

See you kinda shoot yourself in the foot here.

You mentioned a Nazi flag earlier. I wouldn't particularly like you hanging a nazi flag outside your house. But I'd have a far greater problem with you acting and behaving like a Nazi. I mean which is worse, a swastika or rounding up the neighbourhood minorities and socialists and shoving them into your garden shed with some ZklonB?

I don't shoot myself in the foot... your logic is flawed and you don't understand the power or meaning behind symbols. Obviously rounding people up and gassing them would be worse, but if I hang out the symbol of the people who did that, then I'm clearly saying I agree with that ideology and what they did. Such a simple piece of cloth would express a lot about my beliefs - which people would obviously find offensive.

Diogenes wrote:

People get too hung up on the symbolism and ignore the, as you say, ideas, religions etc....behind the symbolism. Which is the really important part? A symbol is just a symbol. A swastika was just a hindu symbol for well being before being co-op'd by the Nazis.

People get too hung up on symbolism eh? That's ridiculously naieve. Symbols represent something. That is a fact. Symbols are powerful, as they embody a belief. I can use symbols to support a belief or a people, or I can desecrate a symbol to show contempt and hatred for a belief or people. That is a powerful thing. Maybe you just don't have any beliefs Diogenes, and perhaps that is why you fail to understand the importance of symbology.

Diogenes wrote:

I'm not outraged, and I'm not surprised. I'm annoyed by the people who think the flag is a bigger deal than the dead boy.

Nobody is saying that the flag is a bigger deal. Read through the thread. People are responding to an ignorant suggestion that a flag is just a piece of cloth. Physically it is, but it represents a lot more to a lot of people. Go outside a mosque and have a piss on the Koran and you'll see that even though it's just paper and ink, it represents a lot more to many people. Go to Auschwitz with a swastika flag wrapped around your shoulders, sure it's only cloth and if Jewish holocaust survivors get offended then they're taking symbolism too seriously. Get real lads. :rolleyes:

zoro · 13-07-2006 11:03AM

As much as I hate to pick apart peoples posts ....

Snowbie wrote:

So you think Irish History was boring and tedious,so what do you care then,but yet you try to have an opinion which you are going off in tangents with.

:rolleyes:
So my feelings on Irish history strip me of my right to an opinion? :rolleyes:

So you say "NOONE" died for the flag,well after any great war on this planet including our 800 year struggle with Britain who we eventually gained our Freedom from was not symbolised by our flag in which they died from.

But ... noone actually died for the flag did they? They died for freedom, or an ideal, or any one of a million other things. But not, actually, for a physical, tangible flag...

Russians ... Nazis ... The confederates ... unions ... war of Independence use to be led into war with the flags raised aloft in the frontlines in which those people died for.

Keep digging there why don't you? Those men, surprise surprise, didn't die for a flag.

If you paid attention in school instead of looking out the window while thinking History was boring and tedious...
Its History and fact.

:rolleyes:
History is written by the victors - if you have any interest in history then you should know this.

What disgusts me is the way in which they burnt the Tricolor with that lads name on it

That's the real problem here - and getting upset because they defaced the Irish flag, or burnt the Irish flag is sidestepping from the actual issue.
But (as is seen here) most people are angry because of the defacing/burning, and not because of the murder.

Kernel · 13-07-2006 11:09AM

zoro wrote:

Keep digging there why don't you? Those men, surprise surprise, didn't die for a flag.

*sigh* the flag represents the Republicthat was born from the struggles of the 1916 Rising and the Civil War. Represents, represents, represents. Write that word out 100 times.

zoro wrote:

That's the real problem here - and getting upset because they defaced the Irish flag, or burnt the Irish flag is sidestepping from the actual issue.
But (as is seen here) most people are angry because of the defacing/burning, and not because of the murder.

No, most people are not more upset over the flag itself. Most people are responding to misinformed ideas that the flag is just a piece a cloth. An idea so ridiculous as to warrant the ensuing coverage of the flag issue. When you realise you're wrong, the thread may move back to the **** Mickey Bo insult.

Diogenes · 13-07-2006 11:27AM

Kernel wrote:

I don't shoot myself in the foot... your logic is flawed

See I keep hearing that phrase "your logic is flawed" on this message board, I really doubt the people using it, or more accurately, misusing it, understand logic.

and you don't understand the power or meaning behind symbols.

Oh I do, symbols have exactly as much power as you choose to invest in them.

Obviously rounding people up and gassing them would be worse, but if I hang out the symbol of the people who did that, then I'm clearly saying I agree with that ideology and what they did. Such a simple piece of cloth would express a lot about my beliefs - which people would obviously find offensive.

Fine, you can believe in anything at all, its a free country. Its when you act on beliefs thats when you cross the line.

Its just a symbol, nothing more nothing less, and when choose not to allow a symbol to offend or enrage you, it ceases to upset you.

People get too hung up on symbolism eh? That's ridiculously naieve.

No people getting worked up about symbols is ridiclously immature.

Symbols represent something. That is a fact. Symbols are powerful, as they embody a belief. I can use symbols to support a belief or a people, or I can desecrate a symbol to show contempt and hatred for a belief or people. That is a powerful thing. Maybe you just don't have any beliefs Diogenes, and perhaps that is why you fail to understand the importance of symbology.

No I have beliefs. Deep set and profoundly held beliefs. I'm proud of culture and my hertiage for example. However my understanding and grasp of my heritage means I don't need a flag, a flag is a representation of a set of beliefs. I can rise past the flag. You should try to as well.

Nobody is saying that the flag is a bigger deal. Read through the thread.

Actually a number of people have expressed their outrage about the flag and spectaluarly failed to mention Michael McIlveen while doing so. Which would suggest they are more outraged by the flag burning than the insult to the dead boy's family. Smashsey, GAAman and Mr Nice Guy for example.

People are responding to an ignorant suggestion that a flag is just a piece of cloth. Physically it is, but it represents a lot more to a lot of people. Go outside a mosque and have a piss on the Koran and you'll see that even though it's just paper and ink, it represents a lot more to many people. Go to Auschwitz with a swastika flag wrapped around your shoulders, sure it's only cloth and if Jewish holocaust survivors get offended then they're taking symbolism too seriously. Get real lads. :rolleyes:

Yeah it's the "get real" and the "rolleyes" that really demostrates what a luccid and well thought out argument you're putting forward.

For starts the Koran isn't just a symbol its the most important piece of literature in the Islamic faith.

The two lurid examples you give are again just that people getting worked up over symbols, nothing more nothing less. I think if you asked the Holocaust survivor which is worse someone wearing a swastika, or someone dragging his family to the showers, he'll respond with the latter.

Symbols are just meaningless things, that people invest emotion in. If people only copped on that its the ideas behind the symbols that are far more potent and important, we could just abandon the symbol in the first place.

DonkeyStyle \o/ · 13-07-2006 11:40AM

Meh, I suppose to some people it is just a cloth... I think the problem is that it came stated as fact earlier in this thread, which set a few people off.
Sure, the symbolism may not exist for you, but if other people hold the flag dearly as a symbol of themselves, then it surely exists... and to universally deny that significance is just daft.

Personally I couldn't give two shíts what inanimate objects they burn... I just feel sorry for them that they're so wrapped up in hatred.
I think it's pretty sad really.

Snowbie · 13-07-2006 11:42AM

zoro wrote:

As much as I hate to pick apart peoples posts ....

Snowbie wrote:

So you think Irish History was boring and tedious,so what do you care then,but yet you try to have an opinion which you are going off in tangents with.

:rolleyes:
So my feelings on Irish history strip me of my right to an opinion? :rolleyes:

But ... noone actually died for the flag did they? They died for freedom, or an ideal, or any one of a million other things. But not, actually, for a physical, tangible flag...

Keep digging there why don't you? Those men, surprise surprise, didn't die for a flag.

:rolleyes:
History is written by the victors - if you have any interest in history then you should know this.

That's the real problem here - and getting upset because they defaced the Irish flag, or burnt the Irish flag is sidestepping from the actual issue.
But (as is seen here) most people are angry because of the defacing/burning, and not because of the murder.

Your nip picking now,what happened did happen in yester year regarding there keen interests in the symbols of a country.
But as many people said here in this post,there is ill feeling to the goin on up the North to the Lads name on the flag,which is the main issue untill some people went off in tangents.

Kernel · 13-07-2006 11:45AM

Diogenes wrote:

For starts the Koran isn't just a symbol its the most important piece of literature in the Islamic faith.

The Koran represents a set of beliefs and values to a muslim. A symbol also represents a set of beliefs and values. A crucifix for example. A swastika. A hammer and sickle. The comparison stands.

Diogenes wrote:

Symbols are just meaningless things, that people invest emotion. If people only copped on that its the ideas behind the symbols that are far more potent and important, we could just abandon the symbol in the first place.

Symbols are meaningless things yeah? Why not look up 'symbol' in the dictionary. I think you'll find they are in fact the opposite to meaningless things. The symbol represents the ideas. Ah sod it... [drops head on keyboard].. I give up, there's no point.

Tricolour burnt on bonfire in North

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