who says palying out of position is bad...

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 11:44AM #1

2/4 6 max
ive been at the table for about an hour and have nealy won every show down i was in.have only shown down TPTK or better .havent been caught bluffing yet and the table is quit easy going and no maniacs at the table.
villain here is ABC player and loos preflop and tighter post flop.

stacks
me 550
villain 1 350
villain 2 250

villain 1 makes it 14 UTG
villain 2 calls from the button

im on the BB with 47s.
i make it 50 .
villain 1 calls .villain two folds.

flop(115 or so)

A K 3 with two dimonds.

i check
villain bets 40 .
i make it 170.

villain thinks about it and folds.
comments?

Bandana boy · 12-07-2006 11:46AM

Gholimoli wrote:

comments?

if your werent already on my buddy list you would be now

nicely played

eoghan104 · 12-07-2006 11:47AM

wp, what other comments are you looking for?

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 11:53AM

eoghan104 wrote:

wp, what other comments are you looking for?

well i was actually expecting another fish comment from you if anything.

opr · 12-07-2006 11:59AM

Gholimoli wrote:

villain here is ABC player

i just don't see how this play is profitable enough times on this board in the situation you have described.

TBH i just think you were lucky. Am i wrong here ? If so will people tell me why really want to know why this was played well cause for the life of me i can't see it.

Opr

Ste05 · 12-07-2006 12:06PM

Standard move once or twice a session, once you have correctly identified your mark.

opr · 12-07-2006 12:11PM

Ste05 wrote:

Standard move once or twice a session, once you have correctly identified your mark.

For me it is more than once or twice a session it what gets me into trouble but i don't see how on this board it is a good move ?

Can you explain why it is standard and why you would have identified this guy at this time to make such a move ?

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 12:14PM

opr wrote:

i just don't see how this play is profitable enough times on this board in the situation you have described.

TBH i just think you were lucky. Am i wrong here ? If so will people tell me why really want to know why this was played well cause for the life of me i can't see it.

Opr

its not profitable if you keep playing 74 like that out of position.
but as Ste said,if you do it against the right player then you can win a big pot.
it has other good things about it as well.like if you make it to show down and they see your hand then they will assing a wider range of hands that your willing to play with which is good for you.
also ppl remember big bluffs and next time when they have a hand they like against you and you bet big with a better hand,they will think tha your bluffing again and pay you off.
in isolation though its not a good play at all.
i just thought look cool pulling it off:cool:

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 12:21PM

opr wrote:

For me it is more than once or twice a session it what gets me into trouble but i don't see how on this board it is a good move ?

Can you explain why it is standard and why you would have identified this guy at this time to make such a move ?

villain 1 raises,
villain 2 calls,

now with position i can raise with alot of crap and would only have villain 1 to worry about. if villain 2 had a strong hand he would PROPABLY raise it so the fact that he called suggests that he has a marginal hand that can not stand much more pressure PREFLOP.
this is a standard move.

i made quit a large reraise and i knew villain would more than likely reraise me again with AA,KK so when he flat calls im reasonably sure he dosent have them.
However my hand to him looks quit strong as im raising big after a raise and a call out of position.

flop comes A K 3 with two diamonds.
i have 74 diamonds so i have outs.

i check to him thinking if he raises i will c/r him making it look like i was c/r with AA or KK .if he checks behind i get to see the turn for free which is not bad for me either.
when he bets 40 into 115 pot i think he is weak and my raise should take the pot here often enough to be a good move .if not i have my flush draw to fall back on.

opr · 12-07-2006 12:25PM

Gholimoli wrote:

its not profitable if you keep playing 74 like that out of position.
but as Ste said,if you do it against the right player then you can win a big pot.
it has other good things about it as well.like if you make it to show down and they see your hand then they will assing a wider range of hands that your willing to play with which is good for you.
also ppl remember big bluffs and next time when they have a hand they like against you and you bet big with a better hand,they will think tha your bluffing again and pay you off.
in isolation though its not a good play at all.
i just thought look cool pulling it off:cool:

Your OOP playing a very weak hand against an ABC player on an AK board with a flush draw that you have no outs to. IMO this is not a move is giving away your money most of the time.

As for showing down your weak hand. How were you going to get to do this if he calls your bet on the flop are you gonna fire another shot on the turn or call ? Villan still has a fair bit of money behind him ?

Ste05 · 12-07-2006 12:25PM

opr wrote:

Can you explain why it is standard and why you would have identified this guy at this time to make such a move ?

As Gholi says above regarding the reasons for this being standard.

And in relation to your point about this board not being good for the move, it's actually the exact opposite, you basically couldn't ask for a better board (bar 56sA, or 774) because your actual holding is completely irrelevant to the hand. All that matters is the story you are telling your Opponent. Here the only hands he can call with are AA and KK, which are both unlikely, (he'd probably re-raise with them PF - hence knowing your Target) it looks like you have an absolute monster and decided to try and get a little more value out of it and then protect against the hand and let him pay dearly to draw.

Basically 8 times out of 10 you'll win this nice sized pot with very little risk

, and no hand

and if worst comes to the worst and you run into a big hand and you have to show the hand, then you'll have a lovely reputation for getting big hands paid off later. It's all about constantly adjusting your game to the table conditions and table images of the players and their image of you.

The only thing to remember you can't do it that often, or it becomes a cash spewer, and so as I say only once or twice a session, :mad:

EDIT: And I didn't even notice the FD, and so basically making it complete a no-brainer....

ntlbell · 12-07-2006 12:31PM

Irish position is as good as any!!

nh.

opr · 12-07-2006 12:33PM

Gholimoli wrote:

villain 1 raises,
villain 2 calls,

now with position i can raise with alot of crap and would only have villain 1 to worry about. if villain 2 had a strong hand he would PROPABLY raise it so the fact that he called suggests that he has a marginal hand that can not stand much more pressure PREFLOP.
this is a standard move.

i made quit a large reraise and i knew villain would more than likely reraise me again with AA,KK so when he flat calls im reasonably sure he dosent have them.
However my hand to him looks quit strong as im raising big after a raise and a call out of position.

flop comes A K 3 with two diamonds.
i have 74 diamonds so i have outs.

i check to him thinking if he raises i will c/r him making it look like i was c/r with AA or KK .if he checks behind i get to see the turn for free which is not bad for me either.
when he bets 40 into 115 pot i think he is weak and my raise should take the pot here often enough to be a good move .if not i have my flush draw to fall back on.

Ok i didn't know you had the 7,4 of diamonds so that makes the story alot different.

Why would someone 3 bets AA or KK in this position i would be flat calling here to not give away my hand strenght.

eoghan104 · 12-07-2006 12:41PM

eoghan104 wrote:

wp, what other comments are you looking for?

haha very harsh no?

I think you played the hand well and fair play but i dont understand what comments you want except a slap on the back!!!

Maybe you should have just put it in the brag thread!!!

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 12:42PM

opr wrote:

Ok i didn't know you had the 7,4 of diamonds so that makes the story alot different.

Why would someone 3 bets AA or KK in this position i would be flat calling here to not give away my hand strenght.

your bulding the pot and charging them for the fact that your OP for the rest of the hand.
i would play this hand the same way if i had 74o .as Ste said that was a great flop for what i was trying to do.

Noelie · 12-07-2006 12:44PM

Gholimoli wrote:

im on the BB with 47s.

To me they are spaded not diamonds.

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 12:47PM

Noelie wrote:

To me they are spaded not diamonds.

74s s for suited but i can see your point.
as i said i would play the hand the same way with out the flush draw.

opr · 12-07-2006 02:26PM

Gholimoli wrote:

74s s for suited but i can see your point.
as i said i would play the hand the same way with out the flush draw.

Well then if you play the hand the same way without the flush draw we are gonna have to agree to disagree cause i think most of the time you are losing your money in this spot.

And you still haven't answered how you are planning to show down the hand if you get called on the flop.

Maybe i am just not at this level yet but nothing that has been said has convinced me this was a good spot to try this.

henbane · 12-07-2006 02:30PM

We are in awe of your gargantuan penis

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 02:36PM

opr wrote:

Well then if you play the hand the same way without the flush draw we are gonna have to agree to disagree cause i think most of the time you are losing your money in this spot.

And you still haven't answered how you are planning to show down the hand if you get called on the flop.

Maybe i am just not at this level yet but nothing that has been said has convinced me this was a good spot to try this.

i said if the hand goes to show down...
obviously i wont go there unless i fancy my chances of winning the pot ie i hit a flush or if i flopped two piar or better.
the reason why i would play the hand the same way with 74o is because what i have represented pre flop is a big pair and maybe AK.
now the flop fits perfectly with what i was representing.
there is no garauntee that the move works all the time but if you consider the whole picture then its a good move.
for example if i end up folding hereafter a big c/r then i can do the same thing again next hand with AA and he will remember that i folded so my c/r will get no respect or another words i will get paid off.

ianmc38 · 12-07-2006 02:43PM

There's nothing useful in this thread as it's a move that can only be pulled on specific players and against 98% of other players it's big -EV. Without the flush draw it's even worse.

Edit: You also say you're representing AK yet most ABC players when they raise and call a reraise are playing big PPs or big aces, so you're keeping the fingers crossed itwas JJ/QQ and not AK.

AmarilloFats · 12-07-2006 02:47PM

Hi Gholi,

I make this play but usually when a maniac raises and one or 2 loose passives call him(they are sick of his raises) ..I make a big reraise from the blinds to pick up the pot preflop.......

I don't try it against ABC players as a rule. They both have less than 100Bb this too would deter me from making this play.

Would you play it the same if you had not flop a flsh draw?
I would Usually c/r to $120. Why did you make it $170? Do you think a $170 will make him lay down a better hand more often?

califano · 12-07-2006 02:50PM

Gholimoli wrote:

villain 1 makes it 14 UTG
villain 2 calls from the button

im on the BB with 47s.
i make it 50 .
villain 1 calls .villain two folds.

comments?

You're addicted to this move Gholi arent you, admit it?:)

I try this move about once a year and when i make it i get reraised all in to put me off for another year!.

opr · 12-07-2006 02:56PM

Gholimoli wrote:

i said if the hand goes to show down...
obviously i wont go there unless i fancy my chances of winning the pot ie i hit a flush or if i flopped two piar or better.
the reason why i would play the hand the same way with 74o is because what i have represented pre flop is a big pair and maybe AK.
now the flop fits perfectly with what i was representing.
there is no garauntee that the move works all the time but if you consider the whole picture then its a good move.
for example if i end up folding hereafter a big c/r then i can do the same thing again next hand with AA and he will remember that i folded so my c/r will get no respect or another words i will get paid off.

No don't get me wrong i fully understand the logic and why you are doing what you are doing.

I just think on this board you are getting a caller an awful lot of the time. I think you are discounting KK and AA too quickly and will see this a fair amount of the time. Also AK from your apponent an AWFUL LOT of the time. Sometime Aq or Aj suited in trouble if this is diamonds !!!

Again i kinda like the move if you have the flush draw but if not i don't. But i have enjoyed the discussion its something i will do alot more thinking on but at the moment i still dont like the play at ALL.

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 02:59PM

rounders123 wrote:

You're addicted to this move Gholi arent you, admit it?:)

I try this move about once a year and when i make it i get reraised all in to put me off for another year!.

lol
im no addicted to it at all man.
if you see me doing this in a tourny im either messing or short stacked and i go all in and thinking ppl can usually call me even if they know im at it becuase they dont have a strong hand.in tourney its different becuase if they get it wrong chances are its their tourney life at stake.so its quit a good move from the BB when short stacked but enough to get ppl to fold.
in cash i dont do it often at all and usually if i do it will be from a position.
but every now and then when your playing tight and you think situation is right you do it even if to prove to your self how good your reads are.

marius · 12-07-2006 03:07PM

Gholimoli wrote:

....what i have represented pre flop is a big pair and maybe AK.
now the flop fits perfectly with what i was representing.

Gholi - if you really had AA,KK,AK here do you raise to 170??

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 03:25PM

marius wrote:

Gholi - if you really had AA,KK,AK here do you raise to 170??

nearly 100% of the time ,170 is nearly a pot sized bet on that draw heavi board out of position is not a big bet.

marius · 12-07-2006 03:51PM

Gholimoli wrote:

nearly 100% of the time ,170 is nearly a pot sized bet on that draw heavi board out of position is not a big bet.

Don't know that it is a 'draw heavy' board - given the action - what hand would you put your opponent on that could possibly be drawing to anything here?

I think that if you were really had AA,KK or AK here you would not put in a pot sized reraise - why would you want to push anyone off this board with one of these holdings?

If I saw a 170 reraise in this scenario I would immediately be suspicious....

Lafortezza · 12-07-2006 03:55PM

Not sure I like it a huge amount. As you say it's a move for particular situation and opponent, but Villain's hand range after calling a re-raise preflop has been narrowed down considerably. You will get folds from QQ-99, KQs but any AJ or better will surely give you action with stacks like these.

If Villain calls the flop check/raise and has $130 left you check-fold then turn?

Gholimoli · 12-07-2006 04:06PM

lafortezza wrote:

Not sure I like it a huge amount. As you say it's a move for particular situation and opponent, but Villain's hand range after calling a re-raise preflop has been narrowed down considerably. You will get folds from QQ-99, KQs but any AJ or better will surely give you action with stacks like these.

If Villain calls the flop check/raise and has $130 left you check-fold then turn?

if my check/raise get called im folding 100% of the time if i dont get a flush to any bet.

Lafortezza · 12-07-2006 04:08PM

Gholimoli wrote:

if my check/raise get called im folding 100% of the time if i dont get a flush to any bet.

Ok. So you're counting on Villain (ABC player) not having hit the flop in a reraised pot on a flop of AKx?

who says palying out of position is bad...

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