Charles Haughey Has Died + Poll

ChityWest · 13-06-2006 07:08PM

Please dont go there.. . . That way lies madness.

Sniipe · 13-06-2006 07:23PM

Maxwell wrote:

Of course you do, you were born in the early 90's - you didn't live through it and don't have a good overall opinon.

WTF? Maxwell u know nothing about me, I wasn't born in the 90's infact I was born in 1980. Fair enough I don't remember everything from the time, but I was born at the perfect time. Ireland came out of a depression from what my parents and grandparents tell me. I think he deserves a state funeral, as is his right. There will be no day off work for the state funeral afaik.

constitutionus · 13-06-2006 07:24PM

Deleted User wrote:

But who has justified it? He did a lot wrong. But what I object to is the suggestion that it was the core of most problems in the country. Or the comparison with dictators who practised genocide and warmongering. He was a crook and a chancer, but I suspect many leaders of many democracies are. That doesn't justify it, it just means that it happens and we have to get on with it.

but he didnt "do wrong", he broke the law. and his regime of corruption most definetly did impact on people who live in the urban areas that grew up over his tenure as leader of FF.the buck stops with charley, he rewarded his cronies and he used the whip on the FF dominated councill therefore he was at the heart of the corruption. this isnt a speeding ticket were talking about ,its 35 yrs of a culture he perpertrated and encouraged which destroyed the social structure of many areas of the country . personally i havent compared him to hitler or the like but in a democracy crooks are meant to go to jail and charley didnt and indeed ive seen nothing to tell me any serving politician /developer/ banker will

conor74 wrote:

Incidentally, how much did Denis O'Brien make during the Rainbow Coalition? Wht happened the tribunal on CIE and the ESAT mobile phone lines? Noone jumping up and down, noone making an issue of it, Denis made millions, no convictions, but then again it's easier to make Haughey the hate figure and absolve other people and parties.

and when denis kicks the bucket i'll be here decrying his activities too. dont think im a FG supporter. theyve an awfull lot to explain over that fiasco. but guess what, no one'll go down over that either

Ps i think those tribunals are still making millions for lawyers. .. i mean ongoing now

[Jackass] · 13-06-2006 07:29PM

Good ridence.

His state funeral should consist of him in a wheelbarrow flying down howth hill naked with fire crackers sticking out of every orrefice of his body while people throw bricks at him....

Why should this man be entitled to waste/rob us of another cent of our money...even in death? Dying shouldn't earn him forgiveness or respect...he did what he did, he was what he was.

SSSHHHHAAAAMMMEEEE!!!

lomb · 13-06-2006 07:35PM

i wonder if bertie is really very corrupt under that 'save the working man exterior'

the old joke is that 2 men pass a gravestone in a cemetary. one reads the inscription on a headstone - 'here lies a politician and an honest man'
the other says ' there must be 2 men in that grave'

he never faced the music for his actions, did the dpp even investigate the possibility of pressing charges?
why were people giving him money?
who was protecting him to prevent a criminal investigation?

he should get a state funeral out of dignity for the country to honour its past 'leaders' but he definately doesnt deserve one.
he was a corrupt scumbag and wasnt fit to lead a dog never mind a state...

constitutionus · 13-06-2006 07:45PM

lomb wrote:

i wonder if bertie is really very corrupt under that 'save the working man exterior'
.

to quote the man himself (CJ) on bertie hes "the most cunning, the most devious of them all..." say's it all really

pluss i reckon he's sighing with relief that he doesnt have to explain why he signed all those blank cheques for him back when he was treasurer

lomb · 13-06-2006 07:54PM

constitutionus wrote:

to quote the man himself (CJ) on bertie hes "the most cunning, the most devious of them all..." say's it all really

pluss i reckon he's sighing with relief that he doesnt have to explain why he signed all those blank cheques for him back when he was treasurer

good point, tbh im a good judge of character and he seems 'honest' to me. but how do u get to that position without being shady. perhaps calling willie walsh of aerlingus a robber in the dail was a master stroke! politicians u got to love them!

Tomohawk · 13-06-2006 08:27PM

He will be missed by all those he helped - bus pass users and Parisian shirtmakers alike. A man so popular banks forgave his debts and businessmen gave him money, just because. He did indeed do his country!

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2006 08:36PM

He was a gangster. If he lived in another country he would have got 20 years for his scandalous lifestyle.

This stupid country is going to honour him with a state funeral. Total bullsh*t.

constitutionus · 13-06-2006 08:39PM

Mr.Nice Guy wrote:

He was a gangster. If he lived in another country he would have got 20 years for his scandalous lifestyle.

This stupid country is going to honour him with a state funeral. Total bullsh*t.

that is true, the french are practically salivating at the chance to lock up their president for all the things hes got up to. not too long for that now either yer mans term is nearly up

should be fun to see how they deal with him then, of course they are a republic

by the way ,interesting to note the only TD to call a spade a spade was joe higgins (on tv3 news) all the rest of em where engaging in the most gymnastic dispaly of sophisty ive ever seen. cant say im surprised, he's the only one who pisses bertie off in the dail cause he scores direct hits all the time

when bertie starts calling you names you know your onto something

ninebeanrows · 13-06-2006 09:11PM

a great leader who was fundamental in bringing Ireland to
where it is today..

May he rest in peace.

Villaricos · 13-06-2006 09:16PM

i think the only reason the state funeral should happen is out of respect to office that he held, not to the man himself. I dont know the details of what he did for the country and quite frankly I dont care. Nothing he could have done for Ireland could give him the right to do whatever the hell he likes and steal from the country and people he was supposed to be serving.

judybaby · 13-06-2006 09:19PM

Weathercheck wrote:

a great leader who was fundamental in bringing Ireland to
where it is today..

May he rest in peace.

Holy Hell ...what a pile of rubbish! A great leader? I don't think so. Great at pulling the wool over our eyes! Well at least until he was found out!

junkyard · 13-06-2006 09:38PM

The brass necked b***ard should have spent a lot of time in prison tbh. He screwed us with taxes for a long time when we could least afford it. I'm sick to death of all these half wits on radio and t.v. telling us what a great fella he was. Good riddance to bad news.

Saintly · 13-06-2006 10:03PM

The state funeral will be a pretty hollow affair – few in the public will mourn this man or lament his passing. Listening to the radio commentary today was a reminder of the complexities of the man – highly intelligent, sharp decisive mind, ruthlessly efficient at times, imaginative and creative, charming and persuasive. This same man was arrogant, driven by self motivation and interest, lacked integrity, moral fibre or principles, a fine example of the backslapping boy's club with a penchant for high and fast living in his personal and professional life.

Ultimately – and I think this is the tragedy from a FF perspective, Haughey had the potential to be a truly great leader, one who could have towered in the history books. Many of the ingredients for success were there. His own greed, personal motivation and ambition prevented him ever reaching anything resembling greatness. Any successes in office should be remembered, but hardly lauded – the man was paid to do a job and one would expect/hope that he would perform well, just like any other servant of government. The horror of Haughey was his complete lack of integrity and accountability – (something that remains endemic in government circles today) and his wilful disregard of the judicial system, public opinion and the laws of the land. People here have commended the man, saying 'sure we did well out of him', despite his illegal behaviour. Others have talked about preferring a crooked leader who governs well rather than a saint who governs badly. These points represent everything awful (and Haughey-ish) about Irish politics to me. It is actually possible to have integrity in politics – the public and the parties just have to insist upon it.

Haughey's legacy is his corruption. On a side note, I find it hard to understand why his family have accepted a state funeral, given the poor public opinion of CJ – though this may swing to a more affectionate stance in the days to come. I presume a state funeral is something he himself wanted?

Finally, I wonder how FF will remember Haughey – will it be rose tinted glasses memories of The Boss at party gatherings – or a more temperate outlook on a man whose contributions to Irish political life will and should always be overshadowed by his corruption? IMO, this could be a time of change for FF. I really wish they would bury with Haughey, that lingering effect of his reign – lack of accountability. They should do what Haughey never did – take responsibility and push integrity back into politics.

A gal can dream can't she?!!

Saintly

tunaman · 13-06-2006 10:17PM

constitutionus wrote:

by the way ,interesting to note the only TD to call a spade a spade was joe higgins (on tv3 news) all the rest of em where engaging in the most gymnastic dispaly of sophisty ive ever seen.

That Higgins lad is one of the few politicians I know of with any morals. The real reason the rest of them all spoke so highly of the biggest gangster in the history of this country is because he is such a hero and inspiration to them.

I'm sure they all learned more than a trick or two from old charlie...

InFront · 13-06-2006 10:21PM

I dont want to start a new thread, and since this thread is quite open anyway... might as well ask it here.

If you were in his position, if you were the Boss himself, and Ben Dunne was waving his chquebook at you, and there was this great property in Abbeyville with your name on it, and people were willing to lots of money without you having to actually concretely agree to any action, would you take the money?

Id like to think I wouldnt, but if I were in his situation I would have been very tempted, and while Id like to hope I have high principles, I couldnt say with certainty that I would have refused the cash

constitutionus · 13-06-2006 10:38PM

tunaman wrote:

That Higgins lad is one of the few politicians I know of with any morals. The real reason the rest of them all spoke so highly of the biggest gangster in the history of this country is because he is such a hero and inspiration to them.

I'm sure they all learned more than a trick or two from old charlie...

i have to admit i think a lot of the whole "dont speak of the dead" nonsense from the dail stems from the probability of whats gonna be said about them when they kick the bucket. last thing the main parties want is people putting on the dail record all the things they got up to

oh and to INFRONT. no i wouldnt have taken the money but then again i believe they should only be paid the average industrial wage in order to keep em aware of what the commom man their meant to represent is going through. people keep comparing politician wages to big business but politics is a vocation. its an honor to serve your country, not a gravy train. course you wouldnt know it from our lot in the dail

junkyard · 13-06-2006 11:07PM

What strikes me as being really strange here is, even with all the Haughey negativity, 39.24% of the people here so far reckon he should get a state funeral.

constitutionus · 13-06-2006 11:26PM

junkyard wrote:

What strikes me as being really strange here is, even with all the Haughey negativity, 39.24% of the people here so far reckon he should get a state funeral.

some people just come in and vote with out posting anything,happens all the time in other polls (by the way i didnt start it either, the threads got merged)

Mr.Nice Guy · 13-06-2006 11:57PM

InFront wrote:

If you were in his position, if you were the Boss himself, and Ben Dunne was waving his chquebook at you, and there was this great property in Abbeyville with your name on it, and people were willing to lots of money without you having to actually concretely agree to any action, would you take the money?

Id like to think I wouldnt, but if I were in his situation I would have been very tempted, and while Id like to hope I have high principles, I couldnt say with certainty that I would have refused the cash

Please don't run for office then.

rsta · 14-06-2006 01:42AM

I didnt even read all of this thread as its too long. Anyway of course he should and will get a state funeral. he was Taoiseach for goodness sake.

he did a lot more good in his time in politics than bad.

Besides all that money lark, that was back in the day... let it be.

Not justifying it but like get over it peoples

Come on like, do ye have to be begrudgers to your own former Taoiseach?...

omahaid · 14-06-2006 07:57AM

junkyard wrote:

What strikes me as being really strange here is, even with all the Haughey negativity, 39.24% of the people here so far reckon he should get a state funeral.

Well I voted yes not because of the man but because of the office he held, plain and simple.

Hagar · 14-06-2006 08:25AM

Saintly wrote:

The state funeral will be a pretty hollow affair
...
They should do what Haughey never did – take responsibility and push integrity back into politics.

Excellent post.

junkyard · 14-06-2006 09:19AM

rsta wrote:

I didnt even read all of this thread as its too long. Anyway of course he should and will get a state funeral. he was Taoiseach for goodness sake.

he did a lot more good in his time in politics than bad.

Besides all that money lark, that was back in the day... let it be.

Not justifying it but like get over it peoples

Come on like, do ye have to be begrudgers to your own former Taoiseach?...

And I'll bet you'll vote for FF too again and again.:rolleyes:

Dragan · 14-06-2006 09:21AM

Can i just say, that for all the people here saying "sure, Haughey did some bad things, but he also did some great things"..... your whats wrong with this country.

The whole problem is that as a nation we talk a good game, but too many people are willing to settle, put up with the corruption as long as we don't have to worry about things.

I then find it funny that you pick on some posters here saying "your too young to have an opinion on this"..... you folks were the ones with the voice and vote when all this was going on. And you still have the voice and a vote....nice to see your "welcome" mat attitude hasn't changed any. :rolleyes:

14-06-2006 09:37AM

Dragan wrote:

Can i just say, that for all the people here saying "sure, Haughey did some bad things, but he also did some great things"..... your whats wrong with this country.

Yeah...sure. It was me who granted all those permissions in Lucan when I was County Manager. I also brought the cheque from Dunne to Haughey. I know I should have settled for the highest debt per head in the world, 30,000 leaving every year and record breaking unemployment in 1987 and stuck with Garret and Dick, but gosh damn it was the whole Terry Keane glitz thing that spun my head...

\m/_(>_<)_\m/ · 14-06-2006 09:51AM

he laid the foundation for the Celtic tiger....
nobody can deny that...

is_that_so · 14-06-2006 10:09AM

Dragan wrote:

I then find it funny that you pick on some posters here saying "your too young to have an opinion on this"..... you folks were the ones with the voice and vote when all this was going on. And you still have the voice and a vote....nice to see your "welcome" mat attitude hasn't changed any. :rolleyes:

EVeryoen is entitled to an opinion however coloured. The "too young" suggestion is that some posters may only be aware or choose to be aware of Charlie the bad boy in the same way that some posters don't believe that Ireland existed before 1980. Many of his achievements came a very long time ago at a time when this country was a lot like some of the newer EU countries are now. He was part of that generation of politicians and others who draggged Ireland into the 20th century.

He was seriously flawed but there are many older people and some much younger who are grateful to him. You don't have to like him or some of the things he did. As I've posted before, go read about him and the times he lived in. Understand him before you damn him.

Dragan · 14-06-2006 10:13AM

Deleted User wrote:

Yeah...sure. It was me who granted all those permissions in Lucan when I was County Manager. I also brought the cheque from Dunne to Haughey. I know I should have settled for the highest debt per head in the world, 30,000 leaving every year and record breaking unemployment in 1987 and stuck with Garret and Dick, but gosh damn it was the whole Terry Keane glitz thing that spun my head...

Very funny, but you know what i mean.

The level of apathy and the "forgive the bad because they did some good" is frankly pathetic.

Charles Haughey Has Died + Poll

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