Charles Haughey Has Died + Poll

constitutionus · 2006-06-13 10:01:47

just like it says, died today around a quater to 11 aged 80 , just wondering what you thought?

#182 13-06-2006 04:55PM

Zascar

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shnaek wrote:

I cannot get over the vitriolic posts by some here regarding a man who I would bet none of them knew. It is beyond belief that so many would leap to judgement, and I suppose those that do are purer than pure.

For all that was wrong with the man, he was good for the country. He made decisions, unlike many in government who avoid that responsibility. If he had not been corrupt he would have been one of the best leaders this country had.

And let me be clear here, I do not condone corruption - and I believe Haughey did a lot for self gain. But to leap to judgement about someone in such a vicous fashion is not very honourable and not, I would hope, very Irish.

very well said

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#183 13-06-2006 05:03PM

Dragan

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Once again guys, i am not disputing what he may or may not have done for the country.... call me old fashioned but i just find it hard to forgive people who lie there way in to office and operate with no integrity.

Silly me.:rolleyes:

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#184 13-06-2006 05:06PM

semidefinite

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darkman2 wrote:

If ppl actually looked at the man properly and his political career instead of jumping to populist pre-mature opinion...

Actually I think that, in the coming years, the populist opinion will be to look back at his life and career with rose-tinted glasses. After all, we're all wealthy now thanks to him, aren't we?

It seems that many here are either suffering from collective amnesia or grew up in the 1990s and have a vague romantic notion of the 1980s based on having seen the Wedding Singer. Does nobody recall the level of Haughey's hypocrisy when he told us and our families that we were "living beyond our means" and needed to "tighten their belt", while he lived a lavish lifestyle far beyond his means on the backs of PAYE tax-payers? For many of us, his pretensions to being an aristocratic landlord who presided over his poor "tenants" were difficult to swallow. The idea, which has been suggested here, that everyone loved him is absolutely ludicrous.

It's true that some of his government's policies lead to changes in the Irish economy in the 90s, but do people really think that this was a charitable exercise? It was Haughey's supporters who initially benefited from tax changes and rezoning (particularly in Dublin). Needless to say, the same politicians, businessmen, land-owners and developers have benefited massively since then. If we're examining recent economic history, it should be noted that the EU played a far greater role in improving our lot. As for those incessantly citing the IFSC, have you been there recently? Many of the prime properties there lie idle now that the tax incentives have expired.

Haughey's own example - success through underhand dealings and flouting the law - has been replicated at every level in Irish society since his time. Is it really too much to expect an Irish politician to be competent and honest? Or, at heart, is his desire to aquire wealth and status using any means necessary something we all aspire to now?

While I have sympathy for his family, I can't help but feel cheated that this man was never brought to justice. It seems that so many "great" men manage to escape being brought to task for the wrong-doings perpetrated during the prime of their lives.

The Clown Man wrote:

We was still wrong but I don't care. I'm too happy with my nice car, nice house and massive TV.

Proof, if any were needed, that Haughey's legacy of unbridled egotism and selfishness truly lives on.

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#185 13-06-2006 05:18PM

CiaranC

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For all that was wrong with the man, he was good for the country. He made decisions, unlike many in government who avoid that responsibility. If he had not been corrupt he would have been one of the best leaders this country had.

Its already been pointed out, but tenous links to economic success do not magicially excuse everything wrong about a political figure.

The man was a scumbag, and no amount of hand wringing by FFers here will change that perception in the publics mind.

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#186 13-06-2006 05:19PM

darkman2

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cujimmy wrote:

I sincerely hope that he died roaring and may he forever rot / burn in hell

This is twisted. TBH anyone who says that about anyone deserves to die roaring themselves.

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#187 13-06-2006 05:20PM

6th

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we on the paranormal forum deal with the dead all the time .... just hope this cnut doesnt show up over there!

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#188 13-06-2006 05:40PM

Zascar

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darkman2 wrote:

This is twisted. TBH anyone who says that about anyone deserves to die roaring themselves.

Exactly. Reminds me of the thread when that guy did mushrooms and tragiclly died when he jumped off a balcony. There were dozes off people saying he 'deserved to die'... - absolutely discusing carry on if you ask me.

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#189 13-06-2006 05:45PM

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DaveMcG wrote:

Apparantly you're not familiar with the concept of analogy...

I am perfectly familiar with it.

There is a particular rule about Hitler analogies in internet debates with which you may not be familiar. If you don't know it, try

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

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#190 13-06-2006 05:50PM

CiaranC

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The point stands. Some of the most despicable political figures have been responsible for economic success, it doesnt excuse their actions or make them any less vile.

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#191 13-06-2006 05:56PM

Dragan

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Not saying that comparing CJ to Hitler is apt, but you are using Godwins law for your own reasons, which are not actually what Godwins law is about.

The fact that the comparison occurs does not question it validity, so quoting the law does not question it's validity either.

"Godwin has stated that Godwin's Law does not dispute whether, in a particular instance, a reference or comparison to Hitler or the Nazis might be apt"

Godwins law merely states that the longer an online discussion occurs the better the chance of someone using a Hitler comparison.

Logically, a law stating that the longer and online discussion occurs the greater chance the one of the participants will eat an orange.

As long as the discussion remains open, any action will be likely to occur, and if you take the ratio potential of any act occur, it will be more likely to occur in a longer time frame.

It's basic logic.

Maybe i can have a law :

Dragan's Law "Upon the occurance of Godwins Law, the longer the relevant online discussion remains acive the greater the chance that someone will misinterpret Godwins Law."

Thats it.

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#192 13-06-2006 06:00PM

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Okay, if you show me that Haughey was involved in acts of genocide, and maybe 6 million bodies, I will consider the analogy apt. I mean, it may certainly be apt for Pol Pot or Saddam.

On the other hand if it's just the AIB debt and charvet shirts stuff again, frankly I think the comparison ludicrous and Hitler analogies just make light of the Final Solution and the Third Reich. The comparison is completely invalid.

As a matter of interest, Tony Blair and his party got a million from Bernie Ecclestone during the smoking debate. Anyone know if the British have spent the intervening years wailing and gnashing their teeth and raging against the injustice of it all?

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#193 13-06-2006 06:03PM

CiaranC

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The point is exactly as I just posted, which you chose to ignore.

Some of the most despicable political figures have been responsible for economic success, it doesnt excuse their actions or make them any less vile.

We are all well aware that there is no direct comparison between Haughey and Hitler, the comparison is one of corrupt leaders who had economic success. Pretending otherwise is typical FF doublespeak.

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#194 13-06-2006 06:07PM

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CiaranC wrote:

Some of the most despicable political figures have been responsible for economic success, it doesnt excuse their actions or make them any less vile.

On the other hands some of the nicest political figures, like Garrett Fitzgerald, have been completely useless at leading the country. It didn't remotely improve their ability to govern.

And frankly in any democracy I'll take good government by a fellow on the take over crap government by a saint any day...

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#195 13-06-2006 06:07PM

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"you see that bridge, i helped build that bridge. But im not known as the bridge builder"
"You see that house, i helped build that house. But im not known as the house builder"
"But you **** one goat......"

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#196 13-06-2006 06:10PM

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jaggeh wrote:

"But you **** one goat......"

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#197 13-06-2006 06:18PM

CiaranC

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Deleted User wrote:

On the other hands some of the nicest political figures, like Garrett Fitzgerald, have been completely useless at leading the country. It didn't remotely improve their ability to govern.

And frankly in any democracy I'll take good government by a fellow on the take over crap government by a saint any day...

Its interesting to view the thought processes invloved in morally justifying oneself in supporting a criminal thief like Haughey up close. You remind me of a Mugabe supporter or something, Im sure its the exact same process.

Thanks.

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#198 13-06-2006 06:18PM

MisterAnarchy

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Deleted User wrote:

On the other hands some of the nicest political figures, like Garrett Fitzgerald, have been completely useless at leading the country. It didn't remotely improve their ability to govern.

You obviously dont know your history,Garret Fitzgerald was a very important figure in the success our economy is enjoying now.

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#199 13-06-2006 06:24PM

Giblet

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He took what was given to him by businessmen, he wasn't picking the pockets of the common irishman although he was a bit of a rogue. I wonder how many of you know exactly what he did for the country?

He had a lot of balls, didn't take crap from people like MT, told her what he thought of her. What about medical cards, free travel for the OAP? Getting american business back into Ireland?

The opposition raised a lot of questions, which is what the opposition do... It feels like a lot of people use this to criticise him because of this without question, more now than before.

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#200 13-06-2006 06:32PM

CiaranC

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:rolleyes:

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#201 13-06-2006 06:36PM

Giblet

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I'm sorry, I was too busy counting the clicks it takes to ban someone. What was that Ciaran

Oh yeah.

2.

It's 2

If you don't want to add a proper reply then don't.

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#202 13-06-2006 06:37PM

J.R.HARTLEY

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well a lot of people might not like it, and he was a corrupt politician , but for all the "no way he doesn't deserve one" thats going on, he's going to get a state funeral as an ex-taoiseach, it doesn't matter that some people don't want him to, the office he held will see to that, like nixon, whether we think he deserves it or not so the thread is actually pointless.

at the end of the day as annoyed as i am that he didn't pay for his tax evasion, he's being called vile and despicable by people which seems a bit harsh, i wonder if they used the same language when talking about the freed child rapist Mr. A a few weeks ago and if they eqaute the two crimes.
Haughey did wrong, and should have been punished but i'm amazed at some of the reactions,like a few posters have pointed out some of the keyboard warriors are a little too young to actually know of the good that he did aswell as the bad.
As much as their arguments need their to be a 100% exclusivity of either good or bad in humans it's just not realistic, the nicest guy in the world has probably kicked a cat (if you consider kicking a cat evil) or something once. deal with it lads everyone is flawed, what the real people of ireland are annoyed about with haughey is that he didn't pay for what he did wrong.

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#203 13-06-2006 06:48PM

Giblet

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When you get people saying "Hey he did some good BUT SO DID HITLER AND STALIN" you know people haven't a clue what they're talking about.

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#204 13-06-2006 06:50PM

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CiaranC wrote:

You remind me of a Mugabe supporter or something, Im sure its the exact same process.

Thanks.

Ah Jaysus lads.

There is so much to throw mud about Haughey. He did so much wrong. And the best ye can do is stuff about Hitler and Mugabe? There is making a point, stretching it, and overstretching it and the whole argument breaking down.

Less of the hyperbole and nonsense about people who supported Haughey being akin to Nazi stormtroopers or Mugabe's henchmen. If you honestly think and believe that Mugabe's worst crime was to welch on an AIB loan and take money off a millionaire shop owner, then yet again we must differ.

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#205 13-06-2006 06:53PM

constitutionus

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i must say its breathtaking to see how far the Fianna Fail crowd will go to justify criminality. the man was a massive tax evader and stole money from a charitable fund. theres no way around this. anyone else would be in jail. hell anyone else and you'd be demanding they be jailed. but not the boss, sure he looked after the grannies.

wake up people, its not "being a scoundrel" its not being "a rogue". its being a criminal. you lot trying to defend this should hang your head in shame

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#206 13-06-2006 06:56PM

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constitutionus wrote:

i must say its breathtaking to see how far the Fianna Fail crowd will go to justify criminality. the man was a massive tax evader and stole money from a charitable fund. theres no way around this. anyone else would be in jail. hell anyone else and you'd be demanding they be jailed. but not the boss, sure he looked after the grannies.

wake up people, its not "being a scoundrel" its not being "a rogue". its being a criminal. you lot trying to defend this should hang your head in shame

i don't think anyone is denying he should have taken his punishment, we're just saying a lot of the posters seem like they want to queue up and kick his coffin before the funeral.

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#207 13-06-2006 06:57PM

Giblet

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I do wish peoiple would stop with the "Hurr FF crowd double speak" crap. It's projection of a scenario you want to be true, yet isn't. No-one is denying anything, but as usual people make mountains out of mole hills and make crazy connections like "mugabe this, hitler that".

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#208 13-06-2006 07:01PM

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constitutionus wrote:

i must say its breathtaking to see how far the Fianna Fail crowd will go to justify criminality.

But who has justified it? He did a lot wrong. But what I object to is the suggestion that it was the core of most problems in the country. Or the comparison with dictators who practised genocide and warmongering. He was a crook and a chancer, but I suspect many leaders of many democracies are. That doesn't justify it, it just means that it happens and we have to get on with it.

Incidentally, how much did Denis O'Brien make during the Rainbow Coalition? Wht happened the tribunal on CIE and the ESAT mobile phone lines? Noone jumping up and down, noone making an issue of it, Denis made millions, no convictions, but then again it's easier to make Haughey the hate figure and absolve other people and parties.

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#209 13-06-2006 07:02PM

nesf

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constitutionus wrote:

i must say its breathtaking to see how far the Fianna Fail crowd will go to justify criminality.

Quit trolling.

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#210 13-06-2006 07:03PM

ChityWest

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I am not a ff'er either - he did a good job generally speaking - he was a capable politician who wasnt afraid to speak his mind. There are not too many of those around thesedays.

Give me the charvet shirts over mary harney any day. At least haughey got things done and didnt make the focus of his career to be the most skilled at making excuses and blaming others.

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#211 13-06-2006 07:07PM

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ChityWest wrote:

charvet shirts over mary harney

Mmmmmm. Unbuttoned?

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