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satanism

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    #32
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanism


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    #33
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    solidgear wrote:
    Was there a verse that said "you shall have no other Gods above me".
    That means followers of the Christian God shouldn't have any other Gods above him. Means nothing to the rest of us.


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    #34
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Talliesin wrote:
    Means nothing to the rest of us.

    ...from our point of view. That "hold no other Gods above me" does not merely apply to "those who feel like obeying me", the target is "humanity", so anyone not worshipping the Christian God is living in sin.


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    #35
    Hagar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,793 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Zillah wrote:
    ..."hold no other Gods above me"...
    Is that an admission that there are other gods?
    Wouldn't be much point mentioning them otherwise.
    After all it doesn't say "false gods" does it?
    So perhaps Satan could be one of the "other Gods"?


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    #36
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    Hagar wrote:
    Is that an admission that there are other gods?

    No.


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    #37
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    http://pagan.flindersclubs.asn.au/humour/otherpeople.html


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    #38
    Undergod
    Registered Users Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    Originally, the Hebrews were not monotheistic, but some other term which escapes my memory, that meant although they accepted the existence of other gods, they only worshipped YHWH.
    Also, 'hold no other Gods above me' is from the Ten Commandments, which according to some parts of the New Testament, don't apply to Christians as they are old Jewish laws. This may be stated in one of Paul's letters, I'm not sure.


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    #39
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    hopefully DarkJager will come back here and address other questions posted, I'm curious!


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    #40
    pbsuxok1znja4r
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,312 ✭✭✭pbsuxok1znja4r


    DarkJager wrote:
    - What are your main beliefs?

    1. Indulgence, not abstinence.
    2. Vital existence, not spiritual pipe dreams.
    3. Undefiled wisdom, not hypocritical self-deceit.
    4. Kindness to those deserving of it, not love wasted on ingrates.
    5. Vengeance, not turning the other cheek.
    6. Responsibility to the responsible,
    7. Man as just another animal - the most vicious of all.
    8. Gratification of all ones desires.

    What happens if you don't follow these rules or beliefs? Are you not then a satanist? Who originally came up with these beliefs for people to subscribe to?
    Aren't these the same beliefs of LaVeyan satanism, which you claim to revile?
    If satanism is essentially about indulging in whatever one feels like, why would one submit oneself to such rules as outlined above? :confused:
    Why does it bother with the name "luciferan" if it does not revere or even believe in any character from the bible? Why would anyone bother with adhering to satanism instead of just doing whatever they feel like?
    Seems more like a simple code of conduct than a religion, like. Especially the LaVeyan brand.


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    #41
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Zillah wrote:
    ...from our point of view. That "hold no other Gods above me" does not merely apply to "those who feel like obeying me", the target is "humanity", so anyone not worshipping the Christian God is living in sin.

    Target at the time was those that had followed Moses in to the desert not all of humanity.


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    #42
    Zillah
    Registered Users Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    The immediately visible target, yes. But the message was to humanity.


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    #43
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    Why'd he go to the bother of getting one tribe away from the hassle they were having from another tribe (who were doing okay with their gods)?


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    #44
    stormkeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,633 ✭✭✭stormkeeper


    I remember talking to a Satanist ages ago about their beliefs and I found them beliefs to be quite intriguing, I have to say. What I've read up on regarding Satanism is pretty much what DarkkJager explained. I think some people find it to be quite a shock that Satanism isn't at all what people think it is! I'm still trying to find my way spiritually as it were, so I have no idea what my beliefs are at the moment, but I do appriciate a couple of those.


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    #45
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    joseph dawton wrote:
    Darkjager is not a 'Satanist' in the traditional sense (neither are followers of Levay). I'd consider both classes as a misnomer as neither involve worship or belief in Satan, Asmodai, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Mephistopheles etc or any other dark gods/powers or use of grimoires or black magic in the traditional sense. Maybe the old satanism has died out...
    I'm not sure that the variety of Satanism to which you refer ever really existed in a significant or lasting way, outside of the paranoid fantasies of zealots and conspiracy theorists.


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    #46
    joseph dawton
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭joseph dawton


    It most certainly did. If not so why are there huge numbers of grimoires of black magic in museums around the world? Why then is there so much folklore and superstition, why does interest in this subject persist?

    Just as the church wrongly vilified all witchcraft as worship of the devil for it's political purposes, many pagans now dismiss the existence of Satanism in the past as some kind of vindication of the church's crimes. I think the truth is that evil people have always existed, although they were a miniscule minority to say that Satanists never existed is laughable.

    http://www.electricpublications.com


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    #47
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    I don't doubt that the likes of some of the happenings in Dennis Wheatlys book did in fact happen and that there maybe people who enguage in such practices today.
    I do believe in satanism and satanists but not as in the the way of the Opposer and those who worship him and are the opssite of all things 'good'.


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    #48
    layke
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,956 ✭✭✭layke


    DarkJager wrote:
    If any of you wish to know more, please feel free to ask me... Open minds with the right information are better than closed minds with the wrong...


    I would LOVE to get my hands on the 'alternate bible'. I'm not religious in the slightest it's just to satisfy my own curiousity. TBH I can see Christians over the years hyping up all the horror stories of such a religion. Or even if you have any links handy much appreciated mate.


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    #49
    joseph dawton
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭joseph dawton


    Most of them are based on the lesser key of solomon. The basic principles are the same as any magic that involves invocation except the ends to which they are put are negative.

    A good starting point for info : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimoire

    or buy the Wordsworth Book of Spells which is dirt cheap and has extracts from several grimoires as well as an interesting commentary (from the late 1900s).

    Interesting as part of history but I do not recommend trying any of it!

    http://www.electricpublications.com


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    #50
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    joseph dawton wrote:
    It most certainly did. If not so why are there huge numbers of grimoires of black magic in museums around the world? Why then is there so much folklore and superstition, why does interest in this subject persist?

    Just as the church wrongly vilified all witchcraft as worship of the devil for it's political purposes, many pagans now dismiss the existence of Satanism in the past as some kind of vindication of the church's crimes. I think the truth is that evil people have always existed, although they were a miniscule minority to say that Satanists never existed is laughable.

    http://www.electricpublications.com
    A jumble of non sequiturs, joseph. I am familiar with most grimoires. Name one that is satanic, if you would.

    Whether or not evil people have existed (this is the age of relativism, after all), I see no reason why any of these evil people would necessarily have been drawn towards satanism. I know of no evidence to suggest the existence of any lasting or remotely influential Satanic movements outside of the camp theatrics of La Vey and his squabbling inheritors, the grungy, incoherent antics of Metal groupies attempting to take their non-conformity to the next level, and the occasional, fugacious and uninteresting appearances in history of charlatanic characters like Eugéne Vintras and his coprophagous nuns.

    I know of no coherent metaphysical, philosophical or spiritual construct attributed uniquely to, or existing universally among, satanic movements. If satanism exists, it exists as a broad, meaningless category encompassing a pointless jumble of shallow, sophomoric and obnoxious groups.


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    #51
    joseph dawton
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭joseph dawton


    I stand by what I said in my last post. Magic can be applied for bad or good, there is no black mass I know of, but grimoire can be used for both good or bad, some are written with a greater focus on control of dark angels or demons. Many would consider the invocation of demons for either good or bad purposes to be black magic and evil by virtue of their employment regardless of intended outcome. It is the left hand path that is chosen by the magus that made some-one a Satanist, that is the important factor, the magical techniques were common to both good and bad.


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    #52
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    How would you define satanism, joseph?


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    #53
    joseph dawton
    Registered Users Posts: 195 ✭✭joseph dawton


    Some-one who employs magick for negative purposes especially through invocation of demons. Anyone who reveres or worships the essence/personification of evil (ie Belial etc) or anyone who advocates the supremacy of evil forces over good in the universe.

    I do not regard followers of Levay or similar as Satanists, they are more anarchists or individualists.

    http://www.electricpublications.com


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    #54
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    joseph dawton wrote:
    Anyone who reveres or worships the essence/personification of evil (ie Belial etc) or anyone who advocates the supremacy of evil forces over good in the universe.
    That is a vaguely reasonable definition of a satanist, but might I suggest the more succinct: Anyone who worships Satan. I don't think it is facetious to demand that the worship of Satan, specifically, or the same by one of his closer aliases, should be central to any satanic belief system.

    But...
    joseph dawton wrote:
    Some-one who employs magick for negative purposes especially through invocation of demons.
    ... is a silly definition of satanism. In fact, a wrong one. People may very well use magick towards evil or selfish ends without even believing in Satan, or, more to the point, finding the character of Satan particularly interesting.

    As to the evocation of demons (one does not invoke demons), the field of magick has progressed well passed attaching moral connotations to the use of grimoiric spirits.
    joseph dawton wrote:
    I do not regard followers of Levay or similar as Satanists, they are more anarchists or individualists.
    Nor do I. I merely dispute that there exist, or ever have existed, any more genuine satanists than them.


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    #55
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    If you google it, you'll find that the Christain Church made Luicfer look like the "bad guy" with horns, etc. Also, Satan only exists in the Christain belief system.


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    #56
    stormkeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 2,633 ✭✭✭stormkeeper


    the_syco wrote:
    If you google it, you'll find that the Christain Church made Luicfer look like the "bad guy" with horns, etc. Also, Satan only exists in the Christain belief system.

    If I remember as well... the image of Satan is based on the Pagan god, Pan.


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    #57
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Yes they took the images of the horned god the god of the hunt and attched the idea of the chirstians gods enmey to it and combined it with the idea of satan there for demonising the pagan gods.


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    #58
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    the_syco wrote:
    If you google it, you'll find that the Christain Church made Luicfer look like the "bad guy" with horns, etc. Also, Satan only exists in the Christain belief system.
    Odd, given that "Satan" is derived from the Hebrew word for adversary, and is recorded in texts that predate the birth of Christ by millennia.


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    #59
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Kennett wrote:
    If I remember as well... the image of Satan is based on the Pagan god, Pan.
    My mistake:o
    Sapien wrote:
    Odd, given that "Satan" is derived from the Hebrew word for adversary, and is recorded in texts that predate the birth of Christ by millennia.
    Adversary, as in enemy? Could be. Never really looked into the Hebrew texts, tbh, tho.

    Also... "derived"? As in, Satan came close to the meaning, or what? Finally, is Hebrew written the same as English, or, if not, how did it become derived from Hebrew texts, if you get me?


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    #60
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    The way other term in the bible did from translation via hebrew then then greek then latain and than middle english.
    And people wonder where the mistakes come from.


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    #61
    Sapien
    Closed Accounts Posts: 997 ✭✭✭Sapien


    the_syco wrote:
    Adversary, as in enemy? Could be.
    No, no. It definitely is.
    the_syco wrote:
    Also... "derived"? As in, Satan came close to the meaning, or what? Finally, is Hebrew written the same as English, or, if not, how did it become derived from Hebrew texts, if you get me?
    :confused:
    I can't imagine what the confusion might me. The Jews used the word שָׂטָן, pronounced Shaitan, to refer to the "Evil One" long before the Christian Era. Christ and his people would have used this word to refer to the Devil. The word was used by all Christians, and translated into whatever languages and alphabets they happened to use. Ilsam uses al Shaitan, the adversary, in exactly the same way - Arabic being a Semitic language and a very close cousin of Hebrew - although one will often hear Muslims refer to the Devil as al Rajim, the Damned, or Iblis, the name by which he is frequently identified in the Qur'an.


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