Ecstasy Safer than Alcohol says UK Government Advisor

Ag marbh · 17-05-2006 07:32PM

LiouVille wrote:

Really, what about the people that take their own life, due to the terrible lows. Doesn't the drug dehydrate you massively and raise your body temp to a dangerous level, haven't people die from this, just drop dead on the dance floor. Anyway, wasn't the drug orginally developed to treat depression or something similiar, and was found to have sever side effects, both physically and metally.

I would believe people who do that already have underlying mental conditions(bad depression) not that I personally know someone who has done it myself. It can dehydrate you massively if you're dancing alot but this is why harm reduction is better information to get across than condemning the drug because whether people like it or not the drug isn't going anywhere. People dropping dead on the dance floor due to heat stroke still doesn't back up his claim that a few % of the population are liable to drop dead after
consuming MDMA.

LiouVille wrote:

Btw, I love the "If you take only a couple pills a year" line. How many E users only take 2 - 3 pills a year? How much alcohol would have have to consume to do the same long term damage that taken E every weekend does, even if pure.

Given the average amount of MDMA found in an ecstasy tablet, it would be possible to consume <snip> pills per session to be extremely safe about it. I know plenty of people who take ecstasy in moderation and would not even use the drug four times per year.
There are alot of factors involved in the final question, how many pills per weekend? the individuals body? mental health?. Along with the damaging physical effects alcohol has on the body there is also the concern of peoples behaviour on alcohol.

scojones · 17-05-2006 07:33PM

psilocybe wrote:

Why is it ridiculous?

Alcohol is a controlled substance. Before it can be sold it has to pass certain quality standards that ensure it is safe for consumption. Can the same be said for E tablets? No, anyone can put whatever they like in an E tablet and you would be none the wiser.

Ag marbh · 17-05-2006 07:34PM

sjones wrote:

The same can be said for alcohol. MDMA and Alcohol shouldn't be compared like this. It's just silly.

It's not silly at all.

nesf · 17-05-2006 07:36PM

DOLEMAN wrote:

Well, the scientists in UCD might disagree with you

Link to the peer reviewed articles.

There are some very odd MDMA and mice articles out there though. It can have very strange effects.

psilocybe · 17-05-2006 07:39PM

sjones wrote:

Alcohol is a controlled substance. Before it can be sold it has to pass certain quality standards that ensure it is safe for consumption. Can the same be said for E tablets? No, anyone can put whatever they like in an E tablet and you would be none the wiser.

The study being discussed is about MDMA. Not dodgy pills with ****-knows-what in them. It is pointless to equate ecstasy tablets to MDMA.

nesf · 17-05-2006 07:40PM

Ag marbh wrote:

Given the average amount of MDMA found in an ecstasy tablet, it would be possible to consume <snip> pills per session to be extremely safe about it.

There's a fine line between a debate on drugs and statements which are dangerous. Please refrain from guesstimating "safe dosage levels". It's neither here nor there in this debate tbh.

scojones · 17-05-2006 07:40PM

psilocybe wrote:

The study being discussed is about MDMA. Not dodgy pills with ****-knows-what in them. It is pointless to equate ecstasy to MDMA.

Ok, fair point. Then the topic of this thread needs to be changed don't you think?

Ag marbh · 17-05-2006 07:42PM

nesf wrote:

There's a fine line between a debate on drugs and statements which are dangerous. Please refrain from guesstimating "safe dosage levels". It's neither here nor there in this debate tbh.

I was just going on what I know but you're right it's not here nor there on this thread

psilocybe · 17-05-2006 07:42PM

Yes TBH. Though it is the title of the news article posted.

Cake Fiend · 17-05-2006 08:04PM

LiouVille wrote:

Doesn't the drug dehydrate you massively

No, and I'm amazed that in 2006 people are still under this impression. Dehydration-related deaths were usually caused by the victim dancing for hours in a hot club/party/whatever without drinking enough water to replace lost fluids. Ecstasy can inhibit the thirst reflex, so people are more likely to drink too little water, but the drug itself can't be blamed for the dehydration. If you take some pills and sit down at a party, you're obviously not going to die from fluid loss.

LiouVille wrote:

and raise your body temp to a dangerous level

Again, any 'dangerous level' of temperature is going to be brought on by dancing for hours or whatever. If you're sitting down relaxing, you won't die of overheating. Also, many legal stimulants can raise your body temperature, I don't see anyone crusading against them.

ronbyrne2005 wrote:

a few percent of population are liable to die from e as it messes their osmo regulation and thermo regulation and leads them to drink too much water and/or overheat.

Ecstasy-related 'water intoxication' deaths started happening after several people died from dehydration-related deaths and word spread that you should drink plenty of water when on E. Unfortunately, several morons thought they should drink pints and pints of water even when not actually sweating, thus dying. As with the dehydration deaths, ignorance was more at fault than the drug.

Just to play the devil's advocate, I'm curious as to whether anyone thinks ecstasy/MDMA should be moved to a lower classification. If so, why?

fits · 17-05-2006 09:11PM

Sico wrote:

Just to play the devil's advocate, I'm curious as to whether anyone thinks ecstasy/MDMA should be moved to a lower classification. If so, why?

I'm not sure if it should, purely because of the after effects. Its not addictive though, and that would be a pretty good reason to lower the classification.

Although maybe all drugs should be legalised so what goes in them can be controlled.

I really dont know

psilocybe · 17-05-2006 09:16PM

I think it should be downgraded to Class C, if not legalised. I believe that anyone
over the age of 18 should be free to choose what to put into his/her body. Saying that, I also believe that anybody who takes any psychoactive substanse without doing even basic research is a fool. I fear that most people would be fools in this respect.
Maybe some kind of a written test to get a "drugs license", which would be shown on demand to any member of the Gardai if you are in possesion of drugs.

nesf · 17-05-2006 09:30PM

fits wrote:

Although maybe all drugs should be legalised so what goes in them can be controlled.

I sympathise with that viewpoint a lot, the problem arrises with "if we legalise it and control it, then people can use it". There are a lot of drugs, like heroin, which the vast majority of people opppose.

It's the whole society vs individual liberty argument as per usual.

SpAcEd OuT · 17-05-2006 10:04PM

Sico wrote:

No, and I'm amazed that in 2006 people are still under this impression. Dehydration-related deaths were usually caused by the victim dancing for hours in a hot club/party/whatever without drinking enough water to replace lost fluids. Ecstasy can inhibit the thirst reflex, so people are more likely to drink too little water, but the drug itself can't be blamed for the dehydration. If you take some pills and sit down at a party, you're obviously not going to die from fluid loss.

Again, any 'dangerous level' of temperature is going to be brought on by dancing for hours or whatever. If you're sitting down relaxing, you won't die of overheating. Also, many legal stimulants can raise your body temperature, I don't see anyone crusading against them.

Ecstasy-related 'water intoxication' deaths started happening after several people died from dehydration-related deaths and word spread that you should drink plenty of water when on E. Unfortunately, several morons thought they should drink pints and pints of water even when not actually sweating, thus dying. As with the dehydration deaths, ignorance was more at fault than the drug.

Just to play the devil's advocate, I'm curious as to whether anyone thinks ecstasy/MDMA should be moved to a lower classification. If so, why?

Exactly a lot of people think that the ecstasy causes this.

If you were to dance for hours on end and not drink water even without ecstasy in your system chances are you would die from dehydration.

Same can be said for the Leah Beats case, believe it or not the ecstasy didnt cause her death, her drinking pints upon pints of water did, even if she wasn't on ecstasy she would have died drinking that much water.

and no, ecstasy doesnt make you think your thirsty or make you think your hydrated most of these deaths are caused because not enough info is open to the public.

Despite what the media have led us to believe ecstasy is a very safe drug even if your afraid of harmful chemicals being added this can be countered by buying your own testing kit on www.eztest.com or to a lesser extent by going to www.pillreports.com and checking your region

Giblet · 17-05-2006 10:13PM

SpAcEd OuT wrote:

and no, ecstasy doesnt make you think your thirsty or make you think your hydrated most of these deaths are caused because not enough info is open to the public.

You will need to drink water, the biggest problem is that you seemingly forget and get cotton mouth. Some people may get that into their heads and start getting very paranoid and keep drinking, people such a Leah Betts, who drank too much water purely because she thought she needed too due to bad advice given to her and instead of sipping a pint of water she went through a few litres in 90 minutes.

The media is partly responsible for the bias against E, they demonised it because of the whole "oh my god she took and pill and died" thing, which would scare anyone. It wasn't her first but she was uneducated.

E still does horrible things to your body and it will affect different people in different ways. It's not safe in it's current state as it contains many unknowns. How many people are educated on what exactly is in each pill and what effects it will have on them? There lies the danger. Testing kits could help but that's hardly going to be very convient for anyone now really.

psilocybe · 17-05-2006 10:19PM

Now that I think of it, do any head shops on Ireland sell reagent test kits, a mate of mine had to order one off the net.

BrenC · 17-05-2006 11:05PM

Why bother taking it anyway? :P

johnthesavage · 17-05-2006 11:35PM

I think an adult should have the right to choose what they do or do not put into their own body.

Ecstasy tablets are often impure, sometimes due to deliberate addition of substances other than MDMA, and sometimes due to poor manufacturing processes. Controlling MDMA, rather than prohibiting it, would solve this problem.

Alcohol is one of the leading causes of death in Ireland and yet it is not only legal but is the subject of a multi-billion euro advertising campaign encouraging its use. To allow the use of some harmful (and highly profitable) drugs but not others is illogical and hypocritical.

If government truly wished to minimise the harm done to society by drugs (I include alcohol, tobacco and prescription drugs) surely control would work better?
How about a complete ban on promotion and advertising?
Use of tax revenue to fund awareness and treatment programmes?
Freely available and accurate information allowing adults to decide for themselves?

Unfortunately instead of intelligent and rational debate leading to logical and beneficial policies it is easier for politicians to exaggerate the problem and accuse their opponents of not doing enough.

Ag marbh · 17-05-2006 11:45PM

psilocybe wrote:

Now that I think of it, do any head shops on Ireland sell reagent test kits, a mate of mine had to order one off the net.

I've never found one in Dublin.

Ag marbh · 17-05-2006 11:47PM

Sico wrote:

Just to play the devil's advocate, I'm curious as to whether anyone thinks ecstasy/MDMA should be moved to a lower classification. If so, why?

I think it would be sensible to legalise MDMA. It would then be a controlled substance, the government would surely get a nice tax cut, it would put drug dealers out of business and surely have an effect on crime.

Ag marbh · 17-05-2006 11:48PM

BrenC wrote:

Why bother taking it anyway? :P

Why bother drink? smoke? etc

It's fun and social

jimmycrackcorm · 17-05-2006 11:54PM

Hypothetically speaking if you had a three year old child and had to choose to give him an ecstacy tablet or a a pint oflager - which would you give?

Ag marbh · 17-05-2006 11:57PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Hypothetically speaking if you had a three year old child and had to choose to give him an ecstacy tablet or a a pint oflager - which would you give?

Nonsense question!

Edit - I suppose I don't see the harm answering but it's hard to get a good thread on drugs with proper facts.

Bottle_of_Smoke · 18-05-2006 12:01AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Hypothetically speaking if you had a three year old child and had to choose to give him an ecstacy tablet or a a pint oflager - which would you give?

I'd imagine the pill would do significantly more damage to the three year old.

Don't see the harm in answering myself

JC 2K3 · 18-05-2006 12:31AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote:

Hypothetically speaking if you had a three year old child and had to choose to give him an ecstacy tablet or a a pint oflager - which would you give?

If we were talking pure MDMA not "ecstasy" and rather than a "tablet" and a "pint of lager" we were talking a dose of alcohol or MDMA that would affect the child with the same intensity and wouldn't harm them then I don't think that it would make much diference.

But why would you give a kid drugs? That's just fúcked up...

nesf · 18-05-2006 07:26AM

JC 2K3 wrote:

But why would you give a kid drugs? That's just fúcked up...

Eh.... Didn't you get whiskey rubbed on the inside of your mouth during teething too?

18-05-2006 09:37AM

I think for such a new drug (its only been around in ireland in any great numbers since the 90s) there are lots of risks that may only show up in the long term.

Ive seen it really **** with peoples heads in the come down days afterwards.

My personal feeling is that anything that makes you feel so ****ed for days after it can't be good for body or mind.

I havn't done them for six months and don't intend to again.
They don't really work for me any more anyways.

psilocybe · 18-05-2006 09:49AM

The fact that it has only shown up in Ireland recently is irrelevant insofar as unknown long term risks are concerned. The drug was first patented in 1912 and was used therepeutically since the 60's. The drug has, despite what many people seem to think been as well studied as most drugs you can buy in your chemist and it is much more well understood than some (SSRIs).

tintinr35 · 18-05-2006 09:53AM

took MDMA once at a party last year, ended up freaking out and had to go home!! passed out on the toilet floor for the night........twas fun!!!

cant say it was the best experience i ever had, i felt like ABSOULATE **** the next day, i cant even describe it its not like a hangover and its not like that kind of hangover sikness its just fúcking awful really really toxic feeling you have!!

i also felt quite depressed for about 3/4 weeks after taking it and could not concentrate, at the time i was working and the boss kept having to pull me up because i was just drifting off constantly!!!

needless to say i wont be doing that again!!!

just another thing i might add, a guy i know, absouletly cracking looking guy now i mean really good looking, he had been asked to do modelling on several occasions and all!! he takes pills on a regular basis, i was looking at a friends pictures of ou college ball the other day and he was in a few of them and i near did not recognise him....looks like shít he had lost about 4 stone id say and looks like a ****ing skeleton, needles to say off his head in the photo, chewing his jaw off and big cats eyes!!! not a pretty sight ill have u know

Naked Lepper · 18-05-2006 09:55AM

Ireland has anyways had a backward, USA-style stance when it comes to the unknown (ie. drugs etc.)

The media will have you believe many things and the general consensus of the masses is that drugs are evil.

Thankfully, the internet has made people more knowledgeable about various illegal drugs and it seems to be getting more socially acceptable to have a spliff or even a few lines.

If you want some facts check the following links;

erowid.org
bluelight.nu
dancesafe.org
pillreports.com
theshroomery.org
yahooka.com

Ecstasy Safer than Alcohol says UK Government Advisor

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