Top and bottom 2 pair against top pair top kicker ?

Bandana boy · 09-05-2006 09:52AM #1

Stacks hero 200 on button villain 150 on Sb
1-2 6 max NL he

2 limpers I make it 9 to play on button with A3 suited
I have been playing postion very agressive more so than normal still steaming after a couple of horrendous beats

SB and 1 other calls
Pot 31
Flop A83
Checked to me and I lead for 32
SB raises to 64 limper folds

Action

ianmc38 · 09-05-2006 10:07AM

I push.

This "tip" was mailed by Full Tilt Poker this morning:

"There will be occasions when you flop bottom two pair or top and bottom pair at the same time your opponent catches top two pair or a set. When that happens, you're going to go broke. In fact, you should lose your stack in most situations like this. If you're not willing to risk a lot of chips in this kind of hand, you're probably not doing enough to maximize your pots when you hold the best hand. "

Anyone disagree with that?

Bandana boy · 09-05-2006 10:38AM

I seen this from FT which got me thinking if i agree with it hence this post

so what is this guys range of hands ?
i think not very likely top 2 possible set 8s and highly likely AK AQ AJ

With that in my mind i think i can get his whole stack in now or on turn and i will have reduced his odds of outdrawing me from 1in 3 to 1 in 5

is this crazy talk

Culchie · 09-05-2006 10:46AM

Bandana boy wrote:

I seen this from FT which got me thinking if i agree with it hence this post

so what is this guys range of hands ?
i think not very likely top 2 possible set 8s and highly likely AK AQ AJ

With that in my mind i think i can get his whole stack in now or on turn and i will have reduced his odds of outdrawing me from 1in 3 to 1 in 5

is this crazy talk

You have to play this hand fast.
You are too vunerable with your 3 kicker, get your stack in now whilst ahead, 75% of the time you win the hand, you have to maximise your winnings to compensate for the beats.

Bandana boy · 09-05-2006 10:56AM

So i pushed and he called his last 77 bucks he did indeed have AK and the turn paired the 8
what got me thinking was he was not folding 77 into 160 on turn even if it was a blank but if i called flop raise I could fold to the paired board which I know destroys me

Am i being to cautious trying to play around the variance or should i embrace it

Culchie · 09-05-2006 10:58AM

Bandana boy wrote:

So i pushed and he called his last 77 bucks he did indeed have AK and the turn paired the 8
what got me thinking was he was not folding 77 into 160 on turn even if it was a blank but if i called flop raise I could fold to the paired board which I know destroys me

Am i being to cautious trying to play around the variance or should i embrace it

You played it correctly, embrace it.

fuzzbox · 09-05-2006 10:59AM

You can call and see a safe turn if you like, as you know for sure you are going for your stack on a non-pairing turn, and you know he will never fold. This is fine.

If there were more draws you would not like to do that, because a draw could hit, and villain could shut down, so you go for your stack now.

I would call in the situation you described ... because I have position.
If I was OOP, I would push.

fuzzbox · 09-05-2006 11:02AM

As an aside .... do you all see why check/minraising with AK here is bad?

ianmc38 · 09-05-2006 11:04AM

fuzzbox wrote:

As an aside .... do you all see why check/minraising with AK here is bad?

Is that a rhetorical question?

fuzzbox · 09-05-2006 11:06AM

ianmc38 wrote:

Is that a rhetorical question?

A rhetorical question answers itself ian .... did that?

Waylander · 09-05-2006 12:03PM

ianmc38 wrote:

I push.

This "tip" was mailed by Full Tilt Poker this morning:

"There will be occasions when you flop bottom two pair or top and bottom pair at the same time your opponent catches top two pair or a set. When that happens, you're going to go broke. In fact, you should lose your stack in most situations like this. If you're not willing to risk a lot of chips in this kind of hand, you're probably not doing enough to maximize your pots when you hold the best hand. "

Anyone disagree with that?

In Supersystem (I think) DB writes that he has lost more money on flopping bottom two pair then any other hand. I have suffered with bottom two pair in the past and tend to play it fairly conservatively. Two pair may be ahead post flop but would not neccessarily be favourite to win the hand if it is played out. However, I think I would have played this hand much the same way, as it is likely you are up against A K\Q\J.

Culchie · 09-05-2006 12:07PM

Waylander wrote:

In Supersystem (I think) DB writes that he has lost more money on flopping bottom two pair then any other hand. I have suffered with bottom two pair in the past and tend to play it fairly conservatively. Two pair may be ahead post flop but would not neccessarily be favourite to win the hand if it is played out. However, I think I would have played this hand much the same way, as it is likely you are up against A K\Q\J.

Big difference between Top&Bottom 2 pair, and bottom 2 pair.

ianmc38 · 09-05-2006 01:58PM

fuzzbox wrote:

A rhetorical question answers itself ian?

I'd have to disagree with that definition.

It's more a question that doesn't require an answer as the answer is obvious.

Norwich Fan Rob · 09-05-2006 02:00PM

his check raise with AK is bad cause it gets AQ and AJ to fold, and it almost pot commits him to call a set, 2 pair etc with tptk in this case.

Waylander · 09-05-2006 02:30PM

Culchie wrote:

Big difference between Top&Bottom 2 pair, and bottom 2 pair.

I agree Culchie there is, it was Ian's quote that did not diffrentiate between the two hands. He asked for opinions on that, and that is what I was discussing as opposed to the hand in the original post.

fuzzbox · 09-05-2006 02:45PM

ianmc38 wrote:

I'd have to disagree with that definition.

It's more a question that doesn't require an answer as the answer is obvious.

It may be obvious to you, but that does not make it obvious to everybody.

Give a little back iano ... give a little back !!

ianmc38 · 09-05-2006 03:44PM

Won't somebody please think of the children? Why does noone ever think of the children? Aaaagggghhhhhh.

jtsuited · 09-05-2006 04:07PM

Norwich Fan Rob wrote:

his check raise with AK is bad cause it gets AQ and AJ to fold, and it almost pot commits him to call a set, 2 pair etc with tptk in this case.

One of the first holes that i fixed in my game used to be doing this, and one night this very reasoning came to me in a dream.
For some reason, it's the most blindingly obvious play to read.

Bandana boy · 09-05-2006 05:29PM

fuzzbox wrote:

You can call and see a safe turn if you like, as you know for sure you are going for your stack on a non-pairing turn, and you know he will never fold. This is fine.

If there were more draws you would not like to do that, because a draw could hit, and villain could shut down, so you go for your stack now.

I would call in the situation you described ... because I have position.
If I was OOP, I would push.

Afterwards this is what i was thinking was the better play (the clue was probably that i did not do it in the heat of the game )and actually goes against FTs advice column this morning

ianmc38 · 09-05-2006 09:18PM

I'm not sure its a good play. Its like flat calling when you know someone's on a flush draw. That's bad. You want to put your money in when you're a favourite. Flat calling and hoping to see safe cards is bad surely?

fuzzbox · 09-05-2006 10:04PM

ianmc38 wrote:

I'm not sure its a good play. Its like flat calling when you know someone's on a flush draw. That's bad. You want to put your money in when you're a favourite. Flat calling and hoping to see safe cards is bad surely?

Think about it - and tell me why.

slians · 09-05-2006 10:50PM

If i may hazzard a guess - calling to see a safe turn card on a draw free board like that will mean that if a bad card like that 8 does hit then you can get away from it without putting any more money in the pot. It seems likely that the villain is committing his stack here anyway, so you lose less when the bad card hits, but win the same when it doesn't. Am I close?

RoundTower · 10-05-2006 12:21AM

I would prefer to get it in on the flop, and I really think that Full Tilt "tip" is terrible.

Is there any card other than the three remaining 8s you are worrying about?

Goodluck2me · 10-05-2006 01:42AM

slians wrote:

If i may hazzard a guess - calling to see a safe turn card on a draw free board like that will mean that if a bad card like that 8 does hit then you can get away from it without putting any more money in the pot. It seems likely that the villain is committing his stack here anyway, so you lose less when the bad card hits, but win the same when it doesn't. Am I close?

surely if you losses are the lessened and your winnings havent change does that not make it a good thing?have i picked this up wrong?

Bozzer · 10-05-2006 02:29AM

ianmc38 wrote:

I'm not sure its a good play. Its like flat calling when you know someone's on a flush draw. That's bad. You want to put your money in when you're a favourite. Flat calling and hoping to see safe cards is bad surely?

C'mon this is basic. Villain's putting his stack in anyway on this board so why not save money when an 8 hits the turn.

RoundTower · 10-05-2006 03:20AM

OK I'm still not convinced and I don't think it's "basic".

Fuzzbox is your argument that he will definitely stack off with AK/AQ here regardless of the turn card, and so we are only waiting to see if one of the three 8s comes off before we stick it in? I assume we are calling a K or Q turn, however reluctantly.

In that case why is it important that we have position here? There is not a lot of money left.

fuzzbox · 10-05-2006 08:37AM

RoundTower wrote:

OK I'm still not convinced and I don't think it's "basic".

Fuzzbox is your argument that he will definitely stack off with AK/AQ here regardless of the turn card, and so we are only waiting to see if one of the three 8s comes off before we stick it in? I assume we are calling a K or Q turn, however reluctantly.

In that case why is it important that we have position here? There is not a lot of money left.

Yeah, we are getting our money in on the turn regardless of the Kness or Qness of it, and villain is pretty certain to open push.

Position is good, just in case villain would check/behind if we check the turn ... and bet/minraise/call ... then open push turn is quite a strong move, and maybe villain will get suspicious.

Position forces him to act first in a big pot with TPTK. He pretty much has to shove.

fuzzbox · 10-05-2006 08:37AM

btw - I was asking Ian to telll me why its a *bad* thing.

Culchie · 10-05-2006 09:33AM

Bozzer wrote:

Villain's putting his stack in anyway on this board so why not save money when an 8 hits the turn.

He definitely put his stack in on the flop, as he will have AK ahead, a better player would not necessarily think he's still ahead after the turn with TPTK.

Play the averages, they're in your favour, maximise the edge, stick the stack in, 75% you win, 25% you lose.

Bandana boy · 10-05-2006 09:36AM

Bozzer wrote:

C'mon this is basic. Villain's putting his stack in anyway on this board so why not save money when an 8 hits the turn.

I like what Bozzer is saying here
If there was a FD or more obvious straight draw then I am fine with push
but thinking back Call only saves money as we know half his outs are an 8
I have to call any Q or K turn and hope he had the other.

Culchie · 10-05-2006 09:40AM

Bandana boy wrote:

I like what Bozzer is saying here
If there was a FD or more obvious straight draw then I am fine with push
but thinking back Call only saves money as we know half his outs are an 8
I have to call any Q or K turn and hope he had the other.

I see what you're saying, but the 8 could be a scare card for him as well, as is any paired board, he could shut down as well.

I still say stick 'em in when you're 3/1 ahead.

Top and bottom 2 pair against top pair top kicker ?

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