New Aldi In Celbridge, over 18s only

Slutmonkey57b · 29-04-2006 02:49AM

"Management reserves the right to refuse admission"

This is legally valid - up to the point that the management must be able to provide a valid reason, and that reason cannot be based on anything discriminatory - whether that is race, religion, gender, age, ethnic background, or Fleck Tash. So if you had travellers robbing the store before, you are not entitled to refuse travellers entry - only those people who you have proof are robbing.

Slutmonkey57b · 29-04-2006 02:50AM

blu_sonic wrote:

In the uk you can refuse anyone admission, its your property your inviting people onto your premises. But in Ireland the customer has all the rights you can walk all over business and they can do very little to you, less you scream "civil rights", I don't think its good that they bar 17 and under seeing as i lived in carow and used aldi a fair bit now i was 18 but some of my mates were 17 what a jip, but its their progative.

Again, European discrimination law comes into play in Britain just the same as it does here. In fact property owners in Britain have fewer rights thanks to the likes of "right to roam" hippie assholes.

blu_sonic · 29-04-2006 02:52AM

as the former manager of a bar there i could refuse anybody without giving or needing reason, (now i accept that a pub may be different)

lostexpectation · 29-04-2006 03:54AM

Boggles wrote:

Not true I'm afriad. I'm actually shocked that this is their policy. They must be confused over Irish law and having alcohol on the premises.

It's discrimantion, absoutely no different from saying "We don't let blacks in".

They would want to change their policy or they will be challenged on it.

So why don't we have an ACLU that are eager to take up sample cases like this. Im serious.

So aldi don't employ anyone under 18?

Whats the percentage of under 18s working in supermarkets?

mp3guy · 29-04-2006 10:20AM

Slutmonkey57b wrote:

"Management reserves the right to refuse admission"

This is legally valid - up to the point that the management must be able to provide a valid reason, and that reason cannot be based on anything discriminatory - whether that is race, religion, gender, age, ethnic background, or Fleck Tash. So if you had travellers robbing the store before, you are not entitled to refuse travellers entry - only those people who you have proof are robbing.

Thats the thing, you can't discriminate against race, religion, gender, background etc... but you CAN discriminate against age, apparently its legal. I don't care, I'm gonna urge the people who can actually get in, to boycott aldi, and go to lidl or even tesco.

BuffyBot · 29-04-2006 10:48AM

I wonder if it has anything to do with being a condition of their license. They have a much lower staff ratio than other supermarkets, and the alcohol is on open display. Perhaps an onus has been put on them to ensure the local little darlings don't start making off with the stuff, and this was the most effective way.

Sand · 29-04-2006 11:10AM

Discriminating on the basis of age is perfectly 100% legal. Try and vote before your 18; OMFG discrimination. Try and order a drink in a decent pub before your 18; OMFG discrimination. Try and get a job before your 16; OMFG discrimination. Try and enter a legal contract without your parents asset before your 18. OMFG discrimnation. You can happily say someone is too young. You really only run into problems when you say someone is too old.

Whats the percentage of under 18s working in supermarkets?

I worked in a supermarket part time before when I was younger. Kids cause far more trouble than theyre worth in terms of spending. I can understand 100% Aldis position.

But in Ireland the customer has all the rights you can walk all over business and they can do very little to you, less you scream "civil rights",

Those were the customers who were dragged screaming out to the backstores and thrown headfirst into the compactor. Ah, those were the days.

Seriously, hire a lawyer and take it all the way to the European Court of Human Rights. If you win you get your costs back so theres nothing to worry about if your knowledge of the law is as complete as you seem to think.

Skyuser · 29-04-2006 11:21AM

They can't refuse someone because of their age, that's against the law. Like they said on The Ryan Show after getting in contact with the Minister of Justice office. They cannot refuse entry because their under 18 but can only be refused purchasing of alcohol.
If an under 18 goes in and is asked to leave, they should stick their ground and put up a fight.

lostexpectation · 29-04-2006 11:24AM

Lump wrote:

It's their property they can tell blacks/young people/chinese/irish people to **** off if they want. It's not law that if you build a shop you have to serve everyone. I often ****ed travellers out of statoil and the police had no problem with me doing it, the first few times they were in robbing, I rang the cops and they just said "Throw them out and bar them if they come back" That's what I did.

It's not discrimination not to serve a certain type of person, it's discrimination to hire them and then sack them because they are young/from an ethnic minorty.

John

See why wouldn't Aldi deal with these on an adhoc basis like yourself rather then make it an official policy... ? which can be more easily attacked?

MarkR · 29-04-2006 11:32AM

I don't think that this is their policy in either limerick or ennis. Bit ott but within their rights i'm sure.

Degsy · 29-04-2006 11:55AM

I'm just guessing here but i'd say there's very little in Aldi to attract anybody under 18 with the exception of kids stuff which the parents would be buying anyway.Its more likelely a tacit policy to stop kids coming into the shop and running amok as i've seen them do many times.

Our man in Havana · 29-04-2006 11:59AM

I have been in many aldis across the country and this one in Celbridge seems to be the only one enforcing this line. In that case their policy is not being enforced universally then the under 18's of Celbridge should free agreived.

Slutmonkey57b · 29-04-2006 12:14PM

blu_sonic wrote:

as the former manager of a bar there i could refuse anybody without giving or needing reason, (now i accept that a pub may be different)

Then you were breaking the law. That's why the travellers in Mayo won their case against the pub owners - the owners couldn't provide a valid reason why they put a blanket ban on all travellers, not just the troublemakers.

philologos · 29-04-2006 12:16PM

that sounds very odd. I'm 17 and I have had no problem getting into Aldi in Maynooth and Fonthill. (is this a new rule that they have?)

Slutmonkey57b · 29-04-2006 12:19PM

Sand wrote:

Discriminating on the basis of age is perfectly 100% legal. Try and vote before your 18; OMFG discrimination. Try and order a drink in a decent pub before your 18; OMFG discrimination. Try and get a job before your 16; OMFG discrimination. Try and enter a legal contract without your parents asset before your 18. OMFG discrimnation. You can happily say someone is too young. You really only run into problems when you say someone is too old.

Again, wrong. There is a difference between the legal protection of the welfare of minors (no alcohol sales) and protection of society from minors (no under 18 voting), and discrimination against minors based purely on age. If you're going to dicriminate against age, you must prove that age is a factor in a) their behaviour, and b) their effect on your business.

So for example an insurance company can quite happily discriminate based on age, since age is a factor in how their clients's behaviour will affect their business model, but a shop cannot prevent someone they judge too young (or too old) from entering.

KTRIC · 29-04-2006 01:10PM

This thread is full of "experts" , it's a pity you didn't all stay till the end of law school.

I will personally look up the law governing this later and post it. Short version is - A shop is a private building. The shop owner does not have to give a reason if he doesnt want to let you in. If he does give a reason then it has to be a valid one.

lostexpectation · 29-04-2006 01:18PM

K-TRIC wrote:

This thread is full of "experts" , it's a pity you didn't all stay till the end of law school.

I will personally look up the law governing this later and post it. Short version is - A shop is a private building. The shop owner does not have to give a reason if he doesnt want to let you in. If he does give a reason then it has to be a valid one.

!

Tobias Greeshman · 29-04-2006 01:37PM

I've been in Aldi's all over the country and never heard of this rule before or seen much security around the shops.

Must pop on down to it over next few days and see what the story is.

They must have a good reason for implementing this rule, and it's their building so they can pretty much do as they please. Don't understand why they're choosing to enforce so much, there's plenty of Aldi's in much worse area's than Celbridge, that don't enforce it.

monkeyfudge · 29-04-2006 02:08PM

Maybe the manager is the Selfish Giant out of the Oscar Wilde story.

Selfish Giant wrote:

"My own garden is my own garden, any one can understand that, and I will allow nobody to play in it but myself."

Thirdfox · 29-04-2006 03:10PM

You guys should pose this question in the legal discussion forum if you want a definite answer.

Personally I think that age discrimination is allowed (especially if you consider the proportionality rule (if you're going to try to plead your constitutional rights)).

Right to refuse entry to individuals is pretty much the norm, however when you refuse a certain group of people covered under the equality Act e.g. ethnic minorities, homosexuals, fe/males etc. then you could be liable for discrimination. As far as I know, age is not a ground included in the equality Act.

Then again I am not an expert (just a law student!) and my knowledge is very patchy.

Boggles · 29-04-2006 03:12PM

K-TRIC wrote:

This thread is full of "experts" , it's a pity you didn't all stay till the end of law school.

I will personally look up the law governing this later and post it. Short version is - A shop is a private building. The shop owner does not have to give a reason if he doesnt want to let you in. If he does give a reason then it has to be a valid one.

Well Matlock since your the law expert you go do that. I would also read your own statement again, it's a complete Contradiction. A private building does not have to let anyone in and certainly does not have to provide a reason for not doing so.

Aldi is a business providing a service or goods. The Equality Act certainly applies to them. On your expert opinion they could legally have an "No Irish" sign up and it would be perfectly acceptable.

pyure · 29-04-2006 03:21PM

I find it kinda funny that the reason for the ban is that alcohol is on display, as they have to be the most strict place i know on selling drink.

the last time i tried, i got refused - despite have passport, college id and a usit card all proving i was 22. I was told garda id or nothing. laughed my ass off and never went back.

will be interesting to see if anyone challenges this and the outcome

Thirdfox · 29-04-2006 03:57PM

Passport/driver license/garda ID can all be used to prove identity (by law).

They should accept it

Our man in Havana · 29-04-2006 04:07PM

It seems they are free to only accept that ID they want, in this case the Garda Age Card. If they wanted they could say you had to be a member of the free masons to get in.

Laplandman · 29-04-2006 04:10PM

Or use the secret knock.

Thirdfox · 29-04-2006 04:27PM

Bond-007 wrote:

It seems they are free to only accept that ID they want, in this case the Garda Age Card. If they wanted they could say you had to be a member of the free masons to get in.

Really? I thought it was "one of the above" rather than one that they specify.

How do you join the free masons?

Our man in Havana · 29-04-2006 05:48PM

Thirdfox wrote:

Really? I thought it was "one of the above" rather than one that they specify.

How do you join the free masons?

Tescos have a similar policy.

As for joining the masons, as you say your a law student, you are already on the road to membership!

segadreamcast · 29-04-2006 06:25PM

I'd say the ban might have been partially inspired by a 14/15 year old being arrested in the Ballymun/Santry Ave. Lidl for (if I remember correctly) running amok and, perhaps, attacking members of staff?

snickerpuss · 29-04-2006 10:27PM

I think its really funny how you can not let 18yr olds in places or have over 21 bars, but when you don't let older people in they sue and are found to have been discriminated against.
Example (from equality.ie)
The Equality Authority welcomes the decision by the Office of the Director of Equality Investigations (ODEI) which upheld that, a man aged 72 years who was refused entry to the Q Bar, was the victim of age discrimination. This is the first successful case by an older person on the age ground under the Equal Status Act, 2000.
Link to story here
I think its rubbish that with younger people its not age discrimation but when you're older it is? Surely it has to work both ways.

Our man in Havana · 29-04-2006 11:17PM

From reading that a young person would have a case here.

New Aldi In Celbridge, over 18s only

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