RTE and Widescreen.... hangs head....

Telefís · 20-04-2006 01:27AM

DMC wrote:

For the most part, I agree with you that RTÉ's implementation of widescreen is abysmal. That was the basis of this thread in the first place.

Agreed with you on that front also

Hmm. An odd line. I assume you mean that they don't control a digital platform, which is correct, yet neither do any of the 5 analogue broadcasters in Britain, and all broadcast in widescreen. The BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky are stakeholders in Freeview, its not a question of ownership. In Chorus and NTL, there are native digital TV service providers, but, of course, most of the shareholders don't live here.

No, that is not what I meant at all. I refer to the fact that RTÉ do not operate widescreen on a free to air basis; it is this I find so objectionable in the context of their making current, public service programming in 16:9, to the detriment of the average majority viewer watching over the public transmission network.
Also with respect, you are incorrect about Channel Four - they very deliberately broadcast Channel 4 News in 4:3, in spite of the entire output of the rest of the station going out in 16:9. Yet they do this as a commerical station, of mammoth UK proportions, operating in an industry with a level of professionalism we can only dream about in Ireland, and broadcasting to a population touching 60 million. And this is also in spite of them substantially upgrading the look of their bulletin a little over 12 months ago, so their 4:3 is not a relic of some late 1990s scheme either. It is a deliberate decision, presumably considering their primary core audience is watching on analogue.

I do not agree with the basis of your argument that as we all don't have widescreen TV's that a broadcaster doesn't need to broadcast in widescreen. It's more education that that’s where we are heading, rather than forcing anyone to get a TV. Byte confirmed that with his knowledge of the trade.

I'm sorry but that is not my argument at all, and I think you know it DMC. (if I'm sounding confrontational, that is not intended). My argument is not that RTÉ have made the switch to widescreen (as they have to), nor is it that they are providing a widescreen service on a commerical operator (why not if the option is there, and if it acts as a stepping stone to widescreen implementation). Rather the point is that whilst drama, documentary and other future-proof worthy productions should be made in 16:9, current, blatently public service content should not. That includes all news output, current affairs programming such as Prime Time and The Week in Politics, and the station's most popular current discussion/entertainment content such as The Late Late Show and Questions and Answers. It is simply inexcusable for this output, coming from a public service broadcaster, be broadcast in a format that is not available free to air, on the established public transmission network.

You are more "pissed" that there is no pukka free digital TV service in this country for our native channels to appear on, but that’s not a basis for restricting the availability of our channels to appear on digital TV and its size of screen.

I am not more "pissed" about that issue, but thank you for putting the words in my mouth anyway. I am "pissed" over what I have said above. And fully agreed, yes, the lack of a free-to-air digital service is no basis for restricting the availability of indigenous channels, nor did I ever say it was so I don't know why you chucked it in there. But I disagree with you over restricting the aspect ratio on a digital service - availability on digital is no reason at all for transferring all content over to 16:9. None whatsoever.

To put things in perspective, can you imagine the scene in the UK were the BBC to convert everything over to widescreen just because their services were available on Sky, yet not on free to air. Very simply it could never happen, never - there would be absolute uproar, and rightly so. Yet because of the embarrassingly unprofessional, who-gives-a-toss-anyway television industry in this country, RTÉ couldn't care less about this issue - they know they can get away with it. And because all of the usual vocal advocates of public service broadcasting in Ireland (whom I generally support) have their 'expertise' tied up in matters of content and social aspirations, they know nothing of this more technical PSB matter, and so nothing gets said.
That is the reality of what is going on here - with the average licence-payer being airbrushed out of the picture.

Mossy Monk · 20-04-2006 04:01AM

you still make no sense. license fee payer here, why should i not be entitled to watch current affairs programming (that i pay for, the same as you) in widescreen? because RTÉ can't do it FTA? rubbish!!! like any other PSB, RTÉ must cater for all its viewers. in your earlier posts you mentioned how very few people watched news etc. on satellite and digital cable. can you tell me how many approximately watch via a digital service and also how many watch via analogue, thank you

DMC · 20-04-2006 09:04AM

Just cutting the first bit of this, as quite frankly, you don't see eye to eye, and there is no point in going through that. I dont know if you are making up points for shoring up a daft arguement or just plain trolling at this point.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

To put things in perspective, can you imagine the scene in the UK were the BBC to convert everything over to widescreen just because their services were available on Sky, yet not on free to air. Very simply it could never happen, never - there would be absolute uproar, and rightly so.

You are completely wrong.

Some history. Digital TV in the UK, across all platforms started out as pay-tv in 1998. Remember OnDigital? ITV Digital? And they did widescreen from day one with dramas etc, progressing to News in 2001, all sport from 2000 etc... You couldn't get a FTA DTT box back then.

The BBC were quite happy to pay Sky as a gatekeeper to satellite using the FTV Solus card, until it realised it didn't need to. Only since the collapse of OnDigital/ITV Digital, has the BBC embraced FTA digital TV, with the advent of Freeview on DTT and leaving Sky's encryption.

You are getting this embarrasingly wrong, or trolling.

Telefís · 20-04-2006 09:15PM

Well for a start, I strongly reject the assertion of trolling. Comments like that are simply unwarranted and are a typical resort for those without conviction in their own side of a debate. This has been a most civil, concise and exploratory thread - I fail to see what the difficulty with that is in the slightest. If anything it's avoiding the whitewashing bluster so typical of certain threads on this website.

I fully accept what you say DMC regarding the BBC and OnDigital - my opinion was as inaccurate as it was embarrassingly misjudged. Thinking back, I wrongly assumed that BBC News went widescreen after going on to Freeview. Nonetheless I am most surprised that as a public service broadcaster they did this. In defence of my earlier assertion about the BBC ‘never being allowed’ to get away with such a move, one thing I would say is that era was one of great excitement, trepidation and turbulent change in the UK television industry, where the introduction of widescreen was perceived (and I remember it being as such) as being a progressive step forward by the BBC - 'Auntie leading the way' as it were (though yes others were also starting widescreen too), and at a time when even the major US broadcasters were mostly still in 4:3. So there was much more to it for the BBC in switching over early than the case is with RTÉ - the BBC wanted to be seen as stimulating innovation in broadcasting and being progressive.

Again I fully stand by what I think about RTÉ, and yes I do see accept what you say Mossy about digital viewers being licence-payers also. However, digital viewers are not being compromised by a 4:3 image whereas analogue viewers are. That is the crux of the matter for me: a 4:3 image is not the end of the world for digital viewers - are you currently offended by RTÉ News in 4:3?, are you offended by Ch 4 news in 4:3? - but by contrast, analogue viewers' sets (also the vast majority of licence payers) are losing a chunk of their public service images to service those watching on a private transmission system.
I am no die-hard leftie by a long shot, but that is simple fact. And I simply don't find it acceptable - that is all.

And no Mossy I don't have figures to back up how many are watching on digital, but at the very least it is safe to assume that some people watching RTÉ in digital households are watching on analogue sets. How many I don't know, but just tossing out the figure of nearly a third of all RTÉ viewers being digital (I'm not suggesting you in particular did) I imagine to be wholly inaccurate of the reality of digital household viewing habits. Not that it matters in any case - a substantial majority of licence payers are still watching on analogue.
As byte has noted, the incentive of widescreen broadcasts is not needed as it is increasingly difficult to get hold of large, principal household 4:3 sets - the market alone is providing the impetus for widescreen. In any event, RTÉ's otherwise station-wide 16:9 policy is already in place, which I welcome, and provides incentive in itself for the purchase of such sets.

DMC · 20-04-2006 10:23PM

No offence intended with the troll remarks, yer made of sturdy stuff, and won't resort to Chuck Norris quotes. And nor will I.

Thinking back, Greg Dyke hated the thought that the BBC, the innovator it once was, wasnt to the fore of digital TV. Carlton/Granada and especially Sky with the Tories, set about the legislation. All the while, John Birt was getting BBC producers to comepete against each other. :rolleyes:

It was he (Dyke, not Birt!) that helped Freeview rise from the ashes of Johnny Vegas and a glove puppet. It was he who saw the light, that satellite does not equal BSkyB.

But only an organisation of the power of the BBC, and good leadership, could do that. RTÉ couldn't command that. We are always following what the Brits do, and always at a painfully slow pace.

So back to our topic. Widescreen.

I think that Channel 4 News is still in 4:3, because ITN still isn't doing pukka 16:9, even for ITV. I remember seeing 14:9 on an ITV news bulletin on UTV (analogue), but it did look like 4:3 cropped in the gallery rather than proper widescreen transmission.

As for the other bits, gotta agree to disagree now.

Telefís · 20-04-2006 11:10PM

DMC wrote:

I think that Channel 4 News is still in 4:3, because ITN still isn't doing pukka 16:9, even for ITV. I remember seeing 14:9 on an ITV news bulletin on UTV (analogue), but it did look like 4:3 cropped in the gallery rather than proper widescreen transmission.

Quite correct - something I only remembered 15 minutes ago as being mentioned before, and so I just checked it out

. There's estimates of it costing £50 million to convert all of ITN over. They're doing it gradually instead.
Goes to show though - the biggest news organisation in the UK outside of the BBC is not pushed to switch over to widescreen (even if it is only the penny-pinchers that are holding last word on it). And this in spite of all of its major host channel ITV being widescreen.
They can operate dual-aspect - so can RTÉ.

Mossy Monk · 20-04-2006 11:13PM

Telef&#237 wrote: »

are you currently offended by RTÉ News in 4:3?, are you offended by Ch 4 news in 4:3?

not at all. if they choose to broadcast them in 4:3 then so be it, but i still do not understand why a percentage of license payers shouldnt be allowed to enjoy widescreen home made programming. perhaps RTÉ should output a 4:3 signal to analogue viewers, that would make sense

JohnC. · 21-04-2006 07:08PM

How does movie purchasing work? Do TV stations have an option between WS and 4:3 when buying, or are they just given WS and it is up to them if they want to crop it to 4:3? It's just that I can't help but notice that RTÉ and TV3 still show some movies in 4:3. I really don't think that should be happening on stations claiming to be WS when the movies are available in WS.

watty · 21-04-2006 09:50PM

The studios sell edited for TV versions. Even in 4:3 these may not have same content as VHS. (i.e. swearing edited out, less or no nudity. Some films can be a shock when even buying the VHS version compared with TV)

TV has always shown a small proportion in OAR (letterboxed to Original Aspect Ratio). IMO they should have always letterboxed most of it.

Your Digibox etc in 4:3 crop mode really crops. The studio editor can pan and or zoom or even open the "matte" to increase vertical area to get bits not in the Cinema print.

Note NO film for cinema is printed at 16:9 (1.78:1). many are 1.85:1 (a little wider). Quite a few are 2.35:1, some older ones esp. by Stanley Kubrick are framed to 1.66:1 which is a pleasing shape to eye. but not as wide as 16:9 but wider than 4:3 (12:9).

Old films are Academy Format, which is like 35mm camera so called "half frame" (normal 35mm stills are taken at right angles to cinema frames and thus are larger), this is not actually 4:3 either but close enough that the crop does not really injure the material.

But Pan & Scan to 4:3, or worse set top box Crop to 4:3 is butchery of the original artistry.

Not such a problem for 16:9 made for TV as this is all shot with a 4:3 viewing safe area frame anyway! Made for TV 16:9 is mostly such a waste.

So my Digibox for the 4:3 only TV is set to Letterbox. Fine for 4:3 material and I get all of the image, albeit reduced vertical resolution for 16:9 animorphic material.

I think there is a new Butchery where I have seen wider than 16:9 films cropped to 16:9 after the credits. You see the letterboxing during credits. A major hype of TV WS was now in stead of Pan &Scan butcherd films we would get the films as the director / Editor intended. Well seemingly only for 1.85:1 productions... (when cropped to 16:9 you only lose a little of the sides)

Scobie · 21-04-2006 11:39PM

watty wrote:

So my Digibox for the 4:3 only TV is set to Letterbox. Fine for 4:3 material and I get all of the image, albeit reduced vertical resolution for 16:9 animorphic material

A nice solution.

Getting back to the original subject, I think we are all agreed that 4:3 to 16:9pseudo conversion is generally a bad idea. But I have seen some w/s programmes where 4:3 archive inserts actually work. This would be down to the VT editor and how he achieves the effect. It has to be done on a scene by scene basis and is therefore very time consuming and costly.

marksi · 22-04-2006 09:10AM

It's no more difficult to do 4:3 inserts in a programme than any other shape. The problem is that if you are transmitting the programme as 14:9 on analogue and have 4:3 material in it there will be black all round the image therefore looking like a mistake.