RTE and Widescreen.... hangs head....

DMC

Toulouse v Leinster today.... feed is 4:3 from France...

On satellite and I presume Digital Cable, we have 16:9 with black bars on side. Thats ok.

On analogue.... oh dear. 14:9 screen with black bars on top and side.

WHY CANT THEY DO IT RIGHT?

MrSinn

The reason the picture is like this is because thats the way its been received from french TV,Its always like that from french tv because they dont broadcast in widescreen format

The settings can be changed to 4:3 to get widescreen
4:3

DMC

You are preaching to the convert, here....

I do know that French TV is still for the most part 4:3. I'm commenting on RTÉ's arseways problem of transmitting 14:9 on analogue, and how stupid it looks right now.

For this reason, BBC Sport is always transmitted in 4:3 on analogue, as if you are picking up international coverage, its almost always 4:3

Also, another gripe, is RTÉ's persistance of transmitting the score dog OUTSIDE of the 4:3 safe area. Watching the match on 4:3 on RTÉ 2 on satellite, I can see a itty bitty RTÉ logo, but all I can see is the É. When the Premiership or GAA is on, you will not see the first digit of the clock.

They should read this....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/reception/digital_tv/widescreen_sport.shtml
http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/delivering_quality/tv.shtml#Widescreen

Scobie

There are 2 main methods of mixing 4:3/16:9 material. Put the 4:3 material through an ARC to make it anamorphic. The result for the digital viewer is black bars on either side. The 14:9 viewer sees these bars as well in addition to the normal top and bottom ones. Using this method no picture information is lost. It looks like this is what RTE have done. I am viewing on analogue 14:9.

The alternative, is to ARC as above but also zoom in slightly. The digital viewer would then see smaller black bars at the sides. The 14:9 viewer would not have any black bars at the sides. The downside is that some picture information top and/or bottom is lost. This should not be a problem once graphics are placed accordingly.

Take your pick!

DMC

Or, hows about the BBC Sport's solution. 4:3 on all platforms, then no bars or loss of quality. Those who have digital 16:9 sets are the only ones to get black bars on the sides, but then they are used to that as there are so many digital channels that dont do 16:9 widescreen. Crop and zoom is not an option!

Scobie

Yes, straight 4:3 would be very good. Forgot about that one!

I think the reason RTE are doing this way is that the studio links are widescreen and therefore I assume,the Munster match. Hence the reason to pillarbox the Leinster match. The alternative is to transmit the whole show 4:3

During the week the Champions League match on RTE was 4:3 and RTE's studio pictures were also 4:3 - a good solution. Maybe they are indecisive about which way to go.

DMC

I would say thats exactly why RTÉ are doing that today, scobie. Its far from adequate.

I've seen Sky Sports' coverage of 3 HC matches on any given Saturday and when they have a match from France, the studio inserts revert to 4:3 for the duration of that match. Today, they have a blue background on the 16:9 edges of the 4:3 live picture. Works ok.

Telefís

Could not agree more. I too saw that broadcast and looked on with incredulity. There is simply no excuse for such cack-handedness.
Just broadcast everything in 4:3 - end of!

The studio production can be set up with very little difficulty to cater for 4:3. Alternatively, if the will was there, Presentation could switch the broadcast feeds between the 4:3 match and the 16:9 studio production. Either way a typical lazy ill-considered mess from RTÉ. Not that everyone in RTÉ is so incompetent - most crew are mortified that this sort of muck goes out over their heads.

watty

I balme the Film studio execs for inventing the WS format in 1950s as a response to increased popularity of TV. And then TV industry for inventing WS shaped TVs. A 4:3 shape TV with VARIABLE height for ANY animorphic ratio would have been a better solution since almost no Cinema is actually 1.78:1 (16:9) and most TV material on typical size screens looks stupid in WS. The whole point of WS, was the screen was same height and the image extended past your perpheral vision, not a SMALLER height image which most people have when buying a WS replacement of a 4:3 TV.

A 28" WS image is pointless. 4:3 looks much better and suits your vision more.

Well we stuck with it now, so I will save up for my HDTV Projector so as to have Films and such 60" WS diagonal and display normal TV only 15" high.

The TV companies ought NEVER to do anything to 4:3 material other than transmit As is. If ITV3 can jump between format continuously for Ad breaks why can program makers figure it out. My cheap 350 Euro TV with Digibox set to WS can cope fine with 4:3 and 16:9 switching from minute to minute.

watty

P.S. I'm uninterested in 14:9 for analog. Do 4:3 or letterbox to 16:9 with Pal Plus.

14:9 is a stupid compromise format for analog.

And please NEVER ARC an 4:3 image as 4:3 windowboxed in a 16:9 animorphic frame. This gives 4:3 sets with Digital set to Letterbox a tiny image with boarder all around. I don't accept they it is too complex to do a WS swtich instide a program. It also looks pretty stupid on 4:3 shaped TVs that do true animorphic WS (not letterboxed). Of course most people don't realise those exist.

DMC

I caught a glimpse at the live Premiership match on Saturday, and for the first time, the Score DOG was within the 4:3 safe area.

Much better, chaps, do keep it up.

Round Cable

Yep the Premiership (highlights) also had the DOG in the 4:3 graphics safe area, took them a year, I wonder how long it'll take to correctly position the main DOGs?

Telefís

Agreed with all you say about the lovely format that is 4:3 watty, and the ridiculous international drive for widescreen, however I do think that 14:9 letterbox is a good compromise for the transition period that we're being forced through. It permits programmes that are being made in 16:9 for future-proofing purposes to be enjoyed as best possible by 4:3 viewers, similarly regarding imported widescreen content of which there is a large amount. Having a full letterbox is too much of a compromise - something that is very apparent on Channel 4 who do it a lot.

However I do think, as said before, that current programming such as news and current affairs and the most popular station output should all be shot in 4:3 until such a time as RTÉ can provide their services on a national, free to air digital platform. As such, Prime Time should not be in 16:9 at this time, nor should The Late Late Show, Tubridy Tonight, Questions and Answers and other popular content, indeed much of which is arguably watched by a more mature audience who are unlikely to have subscription digital anyway.

I note in a belated and desperate attempt to paste over this fact, RTÉ have updated their widescreen information webpage to include data of how many people have digital television in Ireland.

http://www.rte.ie/tv/widescreen.html

This is utterly irrelevant; RTÉ is a public service broadcaster. Reducing the quality of television pictures for standard licence fee-paying citizens simply to favour those paying for subscription services, who amount to less than a mere third of the population, utterly flies in the face of the public service ideal - and they know it. What about universality of provision? Or maybe they're deciding to misinterpret another tenet - catering for minorites, in this case Sky viewers :rolleyes:

In September RTÉ News is going widescreen, an absolutely disgraceful move considering we're not going to get a national digital platform until at least 2008. They can easily update all gallery equipment and design a set for 16:9, but still operate in 4:3 until a service is launched. It is nothing short of disgusting that they're getting away with converting what is any public broadcaster's flagship service - news- to widescreen, i.e. compromising the quality of picture received by the vast majority of viewers, to serve a priviliged few.

Unfortunately any response that RTÉ will churn out in defence will bluster on about EBU conventions and 'keeping up' with the rest of Europe, 'serving the interests' of progress and innovation blah blah blah. I love their pathetic answer to the question 'why the switch to widescreen?'...

"As the public service broadcaster, RTÉ is committed to delivering innovation in broadcasting and programming to its viewers. These new picture formats will allow audiences - including those with 4:3 television sets - to continue to receive and enjoy the enhanced viewing platform across all of RTÉ's television services."

...or should that be lack of answer...

:rolleyes:

Mossy Monk

Telef&#237 wrote: »

However I do think, as said before, that current programming such as news and current affairs and the most popular station output should all be shot in 4:3 until such a time as RTÉ can provide their services on a national, free to air digital platform. As such, Prime Time should not be in 16:9 at this time, nor should The Late Late Show, Tubridy Tonight, Questions and Answers and other popular content, indeed much of which is arguably watched by a more mature audience who are unlikely to have subscription digital anyway

hold on a second

what about the 1,000's of license payers who have subscription television? they should watch in 4:3 because a group of people wont upgrade their televisions? rubbish

and current affairs isnt exclusive to the more "mature" audience. young people do watch those programmes aswell

Telefís

Because a group of people won't upgrade their televisions?!
Why should they? As everywhere else in Europe the broadcaster simply must wait for the turnover to occur, not the other way round. Indeed how do you know that most people don't give a toss about widescreen anyway? Why should they be forced to change over; certainly there's a case to be made for analogue switchoff, but certainly not for 4:3. This is a decision on the part of broadcasters, not the viewing public.

In any case, the majority group ought to prevail. As long as over 50% of the viewing public watch RTÉ via analogue, then all current programming ought to remain in the format suited to them, i.e 4:3.

And even then, amongst those that have subscription television (such as yourself as far as I know Mossy), how many of them watch RTÉ on digital anyway? From my experience of people with digital, many of them watch the terrestrials on analogue on a regular basis because of the hassle of waiting for set top box to turn on and the inconvenience in selecting the channel. Obviously the majority do not do this, nor all of the time, but a significant amount do I'd suggest, especially considering the quality of RTÉ analogue where reception quality isn't an issue unlike the UK channels where there's an incentive to switch to the box. So there's even more viewers watching RTÉ via analogue than digital figures may suggest. And more again when one considers that digital usually only exends to the principal set in the home, and where vast numbers of digital homes still watch RTÉ on secondary sets - huge numbers in fact. Think even of the flagship Six One - how many of its half a million viewers eating dinner are watching on digital? Near on zilch I'd suggest.

As for the demographics of current programming, of course young people watch it - I merely said that the profile of its audience is arguably that bit older than other output.

DMC

Telef&#237 wrote: »

In any case, the majority group ought to prevail. As long as over 50% of the viewing public watch RTÉ via analogue, then all current programming ought to remain in the format suited to them, i.e 4:3.

If thats your arguement, lets not have colour and stick to B&W c. 1973. :rolleyes:

The BBC turned news coverage into 16:9 and 14:9 in 2001, when there were less than 2 million digital homes. With Sky's penetration at approx 400,000, they are all in digital.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

And even then, amongst those that have subscription television (such as yourself as far as I know Mossy), how many of them watch RTÉ on digital anyway?

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Think even of the flagship Six One - how many of its half a million viewers eating dinner are watching on digital? Near on zilch I'd suggest.

An ever growing number. Look at how many dishes there are.... not to mention digital cable and MMDS. And mirror subscriptions.

Argument is flawed, Teilifis.

Mossy Monk

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Think even of the flagship Six One - how many of its half a million viewers eating dinner are watching on digital? Near on zilch I'd suggest

it is all well and good to suggest these things, why dont you back it up

Telefís

Firstly DMC, on the side issue of adopting widescreen in the first instance, the changeover to colour was a major technological advance and a significant development in the advancement of the medium of television, a development that was desired for many years on the part of broadcasters and viewers alike. Similarly digital advancements offer the ability to greatly improve the quality of television experience through increased choice and technical quality.
Fiddling with aspect ratios on the other hand is purely an aesthetic matter being promoted by broadcasters and is a different kettle of fish entirely, something that many viewers care little about. It is far from ‘flawed’ to suggest that people be forced to shell out for new equipment purely for highly subjective aesthetic concerns promoted by a broadcasting lobby being dazzled by the bells and whistles of the film industry.

Secondly, on the matter of providing widescreen services on digital, first and foremost RTÉ is a public service broadcaster. Its duty is to service its licence paying public to the best of its ability in every aspect of the broadcasting process. As such, making certain programmes in 16:9 is a very worthwhile notion and is serving the public interest in the long run; these are programmes that will be shown again in the future when 16:9 is standard (like drama and prominent archival documentaries), or are programmes (such as drama, sport and fashion) that tend to benefit from 16:9 production. Very good. Yes the majority analogue audience do get a compromised image, but that is the price to pay for this transition process; as it is imported film and drama have to be shown in this way.

However, making home-produced standard fare from the News and Current Affairs Division and light entertainment that is current and up-to-the-minute in a compromised fashion purely to serve those watching on private digital is simply not acceptable. The majority licence-paying public have a right to receive the best practice, optimum broadcasting standards from their public service broadcaster, a broadcaster that serves them first and foremost, not the needs of those who have the ability to pay for subscription services. RTÉ do not offer a widescreen service, so from a public service broadcasting perspective it is making widescreen programmes for an audience that doesn’t even exist. That is not to say that digital viewers be ignored – indeed RTÉ going on the Sky platform was a direct acknowledgement of the existance of this market.
However there is simply no technical need to broadcast current programming in widescreen. Yes there is a certain element of extra work involved operating a station in dual aspect, but that is the price that has to be paid for what is a purely cosmetic change. In any case, all archive material will have to be broadcast in 4:3 into the future regardless. It frustrates me that news and current affairs, the very fundamentals of public service broadcasting, are to be technically compromised to cater for commercial operators, and secondly the very broadcast content, namely studio-based material, that is most suited to 4:3! Without getting personal, I also find it very difficult to understand how the very people who complain vehemently about faint text at the top of their screen in the form of the RTÉ DOG, are the very people who find it not the slightest bit compromising that the most important output of RTÉ Television is being broadcast in the incorrect aspect ratio. It’s a contradiction that strikes one as stemming from the comfortable position of being able to subscribe to a private television service and being able to enjoy the fruits of this unfair state of affairs.

However I do not begrudge people subscription services, nor their right to receive them. Similarly I believe that if RTÉ is in a position to broadcast a programme that was made in 16:9, then this format should be accommodated and indeed actively encouraged for its minority digital viewers, But not at the expense of the average (and majority) licence-paying public who have no ability to receive widescreen services, to the detriment of their viewing experience, and to that cost in quality for the very core public service programmes.

DMC

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Firstly DMC, on the side issue of adopting widescreen in the first instance, the changeover to colour was a major technological advance and a significant development in the advancement of the medium of television, a development that was desired for many years on the part of broadcasters and viewers alike. Similarly digital advancements offer the ability to greatly improve the quality of television experience through increased choice and technical quality.

No one is forcing anyone to go out and buy a new TV. I have a 5 year old 24" Panasonic 4:3 TV in my parents house, and, because the corner unit to hold all the china plates won't take a widescreen TV (CRT anyway), I'm happy, and they are ahappy to hold onto a TV, which is pin sharp and still got years in it.

If you look in TV shops now, though, its exactly the same as when colour came out. Hardly any of the big brand names are making 4:3 sets, all are making 16:9. You can still get 4:3 sets too. What this is telling people, is that when the time comes to change a telly, you will have to consider widescreen. In a similar way, the amount of B&W sets dwindled once colour became affordable (mostly through HP)

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Fiddling with aspect ratios on the other hand is purely an aesthetic matter being promoted by broadcasters and is a different kettle of fish entirely, something that many viewers care little about. It is far from ‘flawed’ to suggest that people be forced to shell out for new equipment purely for highly subjective aesthetic concerns promoted by a broadcasting lobby being dazzled by the bells and whistles of the film industry.

Widescreen is an advancement, 4:3 is hard on the natural eyeline, 16:9 is much better. Once you get used to widescreen, its hard to watch 4:3. I feel.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

Secondly, on the matter of providing widescreen services on digital, first and foremost RTÉ is a public service broadcaster. Its duty is to service its licence paying public to the best of its ability in every aspect of the broadcasting process. As such, making certain programmes in 16:9 is a very worthwhile notion and is serving the public interest in the long run; these are programmes that will be shown again in the future when 16:9 is standard (like drama and prominent archival documentaries), or are programmes (such as drama, sport and fashion) that tend to benefit from 16:9 production. Very good. Yes the majority analogue audience do get a compromised image, but that is the price to pay for this transition process; as it is imported film and drama have to be shown in this way.

Again, they are taking the lead from the UK broadcasters on this one. Digital subscribers are licence-fee payers too. They need a deal too, all 400,000 + households, hardly a small minority, but not all have widescreen TV's yet.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

However, making home-produced standard fare from the News and Current Affairs Division and light entertainment that is current and up-to-the-minute in a compromised fashion purely to serve those watching on private digital is simply not acceptable. The majority licence-paying public have a right to receive the best practice, optimum broadcasting standards from their public service broadcaster, a broadcaster that serves them first and foremost, not the needs of those who have the ability to pay for subscription services. RTÉ do not offer a widescreen service, so from a public service broadcasting perspective it is making widescreen programmes for an audience that doesn’t even exist. That is not to say that digital viewers be ignored – indeed RTÉ going on the Sky platform was a direct acknowledgement of the existance of this market.

I think you are indenial about the effect digital TV has had on this country. It's progress, rather than total, all-out change. Sky News couldve went widescreen a lot earlier than they did, yet its the growing thing. It's organic rather than seismic.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

However there is simply no technical need to broadcast current programming in widescreen.

This is your basis? If someone went out and bought a widescreen TV now, I'd be pretty pissed that there wasnt that great amount of programmes in widescreen to justify me getting a TV, if you were in charge.

RTÉ are only, only responding to the organic growth and manufacturer pushing of widescreen TV's.

The DOG issue has been well debated here, in brief as digital sources have EPG's which clearly tell you by pressing one button what channel you are watching.

You are clearly indenial of the changing landscape of the TV market, I feel.

Good night, have a good easter.

watty

The TV stations HAVE to produce WS material because most of the new TVs sold are WS.

But there is nothing inherently better about WS. Around about the 4:3 is better (12:9, though 13:9 might be a bit better), It is arbitary and slightly less wide than almost all Cinema WS (which was a marketing ploy to differentiate from TV in 1950s). WS is designed for a large screen, the idea being to fill the wall completly. On 26" WS it really just looks chopped off!

We are stuck with it now. So we need to make the best of it. Part of that is understanding to set the degital box & TV correctly so WS is actually displayed properly and not cropped to 4:3 or letterboxed. Also for program makers to use it intelligently, esp when source material is is 4:3

I was allways annoyed by Films getting cropped to 4:3 for TV and VHS, rather than letterboxed in OAR (Original Aspect Ratio). We were promised in the pre WS launch hype that we would get all our Films in OAR. This is not entirely true on TV or DVD. Though a huge improvement from the 4:3 days.

So while I would have preferred some different more flexible method of WS, I am pleased to get WS as mostly the films are OAR on DVD and more occassionally on TV.

Of course a 2:35:1 WS film hasa to be letterboxed in WS, so a 28" WS is a bit small. (ALWAYS pick any TV for your room, 4:3, WS or HD based on the HIEGHT of the picture relative to your sitting distance, never the screen diagonal). I'm hopping to get a super bright WQXGA projector someday though probabily have to make do with WUXGA resolution. Then films can be watched at Director's intended visual experience in HD WS.

byte

4:3 televisions are most definitely a thing of the past. No major manufacturer makes them anymore (except Sanyo, though these TV's aren't the finest examples of TV's I've seen). Sony don't even produce ANY CRT televisions anymore, concentrating solely on LCD.

As for RTÉ showing news in 16:9, did I miss something? What is the real problem with that? Personally, I think it's good that they're coming to terms with widescreen transmissions, though DTT is needed for full benefits to consumers as obviously, not everyone has digital TV at home.

Telefís

I am anything but in denial about the changing broadcasting landscape DMC - quite the opposite in fact! Yes I do not like 16:9, yes I don't like the idea of multinationals taking over the digital market in this country - however I do accept it. My dispute here is not the fact that RTÉ are beginning the changeover to widescreen: it simply has to as part of an international movement. Rather my problem is the way in which they are doing it.

DMC wrote:

No one is forcing anyone to go out and buy a new TV. I have a 5 year old 24" Panasonic 4:3 TV in my parents house, and, because the corner unit to hold all the china plates won't take a widescreen TV (CRT anyway), I'm happy, and they are ahappy to hold onto a TV, which is pin sharp and still got years in it.

I fully agree - I was merely responding to Mossy and his suggestion that people won't go out and buy new sets.

Again, [RTÉ] are taking the lead from the UK broadcasters on this one. Digital subscribers are licence-fee payers too. They need a deal too, all 400,000 + households, hardly a small minority, but not all have widescreen TV's yet.

You see this is the issue - RTÉ are not taking the lead from UK broadcasters, because RTÉ do not have a digital platform! RTÉ as a public broadcaster is compromising both its bread and butter programming, and its audience viewing via its public service transmission network, to serve the interests of those watching via commercial operators and a private transmission system, and a minority audience at that. And again the figure of 460,000 is highly questionable given the amount of viewing people do nowadays on second and third sets. I've no figures to back it up but I'd imagine that on average about 4 out of 5 people watching RTÉ at any given time are watching on analogue. Especially with news - how many people watching Six One in their kitchen have digital?!!

There is no major reason, technical or aesthetic, to be broadcasting current programming such as news and current affairs in 16:9. The only reason they're doing it is because it's more convenient for them to do so - less chance of fecking up every five minutes as they currently do. Any competent broadcaster could operate in dual aspect indefinitely if necessary.

If someone went out and bought a widescreen TV now, I'd be pretty pissed that there wasnt that great amount of programmes in widescreen to justify me getting a TV, if you were in charge.

What do you mean?! RTÉ do not operate on a digital platform! As it is, if I bring a widescreen set home and plug it in (as I have, two in fact) I'm not going to receive any widescreen pictures, let alone 'be pissed' about just news and current affairs!
Yes nearly a third of households have digital, but that's irrelevant, 1) because they're still very much so a minority audience, 2) not all digital households are watching on digital sets anyway, 3) (and most importantly) RTÉ is a public broadcaster that serves its average licence-paying viewer first as far as is practicable, and 4) there is no aesthetic or technical need to switch these programmes over to 16:9 for the time being.
Not until the station is up and running on a national digital service should these programmes be converted over - i.e. not until the viewer is given the ability (shock! the notion!) to even avail of this service!

watty

The only Digital and thus widescreen without PayTv comes from outside the state.

Anything that is WS should be fully letterboxed on 4:3 and if need be letterboxed on Animorphic WS too (Films are ALMOST ALL wider 16:9 is 1.78:1 and typically most narrow Cinema WS is 1.85:1, only some older stuff is 1.66:1).

RTE is in an awkward position as by rights they should have had their own DTT nearly 7 years ago and it was "snatched" from them.

SPDUB

Telef&#237 wrote: »

I've no figures to back it up but I'd imagine that on average about 4 out of 5 people watching RTÉ at any given time are watching on analogue. Especially with news - how many people watching Six One in their kitchen have digital?!!

A house about 5 doors down from me after they got a sky dish installed also got a rooftop aerial installed pointing at Three Rock.

Obviously they thought the rooftop aerial was a handy way of watching RTE

watty

If you arn't on cable/MMDS and cancel a Sky Sub, it is the ONLY way to watch RTE, Hardly anywhere has strong enough signal for set-top aerial to give a good bicture. IF they got dish & aerial at same time it suggests it is NOT sky, but FTA satellite they have.

SPDUB

watty wrote:

If you arn't on cable/MMDS and cancel a Sky Sub, it is the ONLY way to watch RTE, Hardly anywhere has strong enough signal for set-top aerial to give a good bicture. IF they got dish & aerial at same time it suggests it is NOT sky, but FTA satellite they have.

I never said they got them at the same time.

I said after the SKy dish was installed they got an aeriel installed and this is one of the "anywhere" that does have a strong signal on a set top aerial ,I use one myself ,so a rooftop aerial is not required but would be handy to bundle the signal along with a SKY feed around the house

Plus if they are not with SKY can you explain why they are receiving the SKY magazine.

Mossy Monk

SPDUB wrote:

I never said they got them at the same time.

where did watty say they did?

SPDUB wrote:

Plus if they are not with SKY can you explain why they are receiving the SKY magazine.

where did he say they werent getting Sky?

watty said

watty wrote:

IF they got dish & aerial at same time it suggests it is NOT sky

the relevant words i have highlighted

SPDUB

I realise now that I read his statement the wrong way.

However since the aerial was put up after the SKY dish and the people there are receiving the magazine, so presumably have a subscription and are fully able to watch RTE in ws through SKY,they seem to find it acceptable , to the point of forking out money to put up an aerial when a set top one would do, to watch RTE off air from Three Rock and therefore not in ws

JohnC.

Personally, I have not watched any analogue TV since whenever NTL switched their MMDS service to digital. And even before then, on analogue, I watched things via NTL rather than the old terrestrial aeriel. Must be 10 years since it got used.

Although when recently setting up the parents new TV, I did tune in the terrestiral channels (they don't get used, but are there as a backup in case anything happens to the Sky box). The aeriel was never set up for TV3 reception, so TV3 is barely even a ghost, but interestingly, when the aeriel was unplugged, TV3 was actually coming in fairly clear!

watty

Shakes head .... Anyone for a fresh coffee?

DMC

Back again, hope ye all had a nice Easter...

For the most part, I agree with you that RTÉ's implementation of widescreen is abysmal. That was the basis of this thread in the first place.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

RTÉ do not operate on a digital platform!

Hmm. An odd line. I assume you mean that they don't control a digital platform, which is correct, yet neither do any of the 5 analogue broadcasters in Britain, and all broadcast in widescreen. The BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky are stakeholders in Freeview, its not a question of ownership. In Chorus and NTL, there are native digital TV service providers, but, of course, most of the shareholders don't live here.

I do not agree with the basis of your argument that as we all don't have widescreen TV's that a broadcaster doesn't need to broadcast in widescreen. It's more education that that’s where we are heading, rather than forcing anyone to get a TV. Byte confirmed that with his knowledge of the trade.

You are more "pissed" that there is no pukka free digital TV service in this country for our native channels to appear on, but that’s not a basis for restricting the availability of our channels to appear on digital TV and its size of screen.

Telefís

DMC wrote:

For the most part, I agree with you that RTÉ's implementation of widescreen is abysmal. That was the basis of this thread in the first place.

Agreed with you on that front also

Hmm. An odd line. I assume you mean that they don't control a digital platform, which is correct, yet neither do any of the 5 analogue broadcasters in Britain, and all broadcast in widescreen. The BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky are stakeholders in Freeview, its not a question of ownership. In Chorus and NTL, there are native digital TV service providers, but, of course, most of the shareholders don't live here.

No, that is not what I meant at all. I refer to the fact that RTÉ do not operate widescreen on a free to air basis; it is this I find so objectionable in the context of their making current, public service programming in 16:9, to the detriment of the average majority viewer watching over the public transmission network.
Also with respect, you are incorrect about Channel Four - they very deliberately broadcast Channel 4 News in 4:3, in spite of the entire output of the rest of the station going out in 16:9. Yet they do this as a commerical station, of mammoth UK proportions, operating in an industry with a level of professionalism we can only dream about in Ireland, and broadcasting to a population touching 60 million. And this is also in spite of them substantially upgrading the look of their bulletin a little over 12 months ago, so their 4:3 is not a relic of some late 1990s scheme either. It is a deliberate decision, presumably considering their primary core audience is watching on analogue.

I do not agree with the basis of your argument that as we all don't have widescreen TV's that a broadcaster doesn't need to broadcast in widescreen. It's more education that that’s where we are heading, rather than forcing anyone to get a TV. Byte confirmed that with his knowledge of the trade.

I'm sorry but that is not my argument at all, and I think you know it DMC. (if I'm sounding confrontational, that is not intended). My argument is not that RTÉ have made the switch to widescreen (as they have to), nor is it that they are providing a widescreen service on a commerical operator (why not if the option is there, and if it acts as a stepping stone to widescreen implementation). Rather the point is that whilst drama, documentary and other future-proof worthy productions should be made in 16:9, current, blatently public service content should not. That includes all news output, current affairs programming such as Prime Time and The Week in Politics, and the station's most popular current discussion/entertainment content such as The Late Late Show and Questions and Answers. It is simply inexcusable for this output, coming from a public service broadcaster, be broadcast in a format that is not available free to air, on the established public transmission network.

You are more "pissed" that there is no pukka free digital TV service in this country for our native channels to appear on, but that’s not a basis for restricting the availability of our channels to appear on digital TV and its size of screen.

I am not more "pissed" about that issue, but thank you for putting the words in my mouth anyway. I am "pissed" over what I have said above. And fully agreed, yes, the lack of a free-to-air digital service is no basis for restricting the availability of indigenous channels, nor did I ever say it was so I don't know why you chucked it in there. But I disagree with you over restricting the aspect ratio on a digital service - availability on digital is no reason at all for transferring all content over to 16:9. None whatsoever.

To put things in perspective, can you imagine the scene in the UK were the BBC to convert everything over to widescreen just because their services were available on Sky, yet not on free to air. Very simply it could never happen, never - there would be absolute uproar, and rightly so. Yet because of the embarrassingly unprofessional, who-gives-a-toss-anyway television industry in this country, RTÉ couldn't care less about this issue - they know they can get away with it. And because all of the usual vocal advocates of public service broadcasting in Ireland (whom I generally support) have their 'expertise' tied up in matters of content and social aspirations, they know nothing of this more technical PSB matter, and so nothing gets said.
That is the reality of what is going on here - with the average licence-payer being airbrushed out of the picture.

Mossy Monk

you still make no sense. license fee payer here, why should i not be entitled to watch current affairs programming (that i pay for, the same as you) in widescreen? because RTÉ can't do it FTA? rubbish!!! like any other PSB, RTÉ must cater for all its viewers. in your earlier posts you mentioned how very few people watched news etc. on satellite and digital cable. can you tell me how many approximately watch via a digital service and also how many watch via analogue, thank you

DMC

Just cutting the first bit of this, as quite frankly, you don't see eye to eye, and there is no point in going through that. I dont know if you are making up points for shoring up a daft arguement or just plain trolling at this point.

Telef&#237 wrote: »

To put things in perspective, can you imagine the scene in the UK were the BBC to convert everything over to widescreen just because their services were available on Sky, yet not on free to air. Very simply it could never happen, never - there would be absolute uproar, and rightly so.

You are completely wrong.

Some history. Digital TV in the UK, across all platforms started out as pay-tv in 1998. Remember OnDigital? ITV Digital? And they did widescreen from day one with dramas etc, progressing to News in 2001, all sport from 2000 etc... You couldn't get a FTA DTT box back then.

The BBC were quite happy to pay Sky as a gatekeeper to satellite using the FTV Solus card, until it realised it didn't need to. Only since the collapse of OnDigital/ITV Digital, has the BBC embraced FTA digital TV, with the advent of Freeview on DTT and leaving Sky's encryption.

You are getting this embarrasingly wrong, or trolling.

Telefís

Well for a start, I strongly reject the assertion of trolling. Comments like that are simply unwarranted and are a typical resort for those without conviction in their own side of a debate. This has been a most civil, concise and exploratory thread - I fail to see what the difficulty with that is in the slightest. If anything it's avoiding the whitewashing bluster so typical of certain threads on this website.

I fully accept what you say DMC regarding the BBC and OnDigital - my opinion was as inaccurate as it was embarrassingly misjudged. Thinking back, I wrongly assumed that BBC News went widescreen after going on to Freeview. Nonetheless I am most surprised that as a public service broadcaster they did this. In defence of my earlier assertion about the BBC ‘never being allowed’ to get away with such a move, one thing I would say is that era was one of great excitement, trepidation and turbulent change in the UK television industry, where the introduction of widescreen was perceived (and I remember it being as such) as being a progressive step forward by the BBC - 'Auntie leading the way' as it were (though yes others were also starting widescreen too), and at a time when even the major US broadcasters were mostly still in 4:3. So there was much more to it for the BBC in switching over early than the case is with RTÉ - the BBC wanted to be seen as stimulating innovation in broadcasting and being progressive.

Again I fully stand by what I think about RTÉ, and yes I do see accept what you say Mossy about digital viewers being licence-payers also. However, digital viewers are not being compromised by a 4:3 image whereas analogue viewers are. That is the crux of the matter for me: a 4:3 image is not the end of the world for digital viewers - are you currently offended by RTÉ News in 4:3?, are you offended by Ch 4 news in 4:3? - but by contrast, analogue viewers' sets (also the vast majority of licence payers) are losing a chunk of their public service images to service those watching on a private transmission system.
I am no die-hard leftie by a long shot, but that is simple fact. And I simply don't find it acceptable - that is all.

And no Mossy I don't have figures to back up how many are watching on digital, but at the very least it is safe to assume that some people watching RTÉ in digital households are watching on analogue sets. How many I don't know, but just tossing out the figure of nearly a third of all RTÉ viewers being digital (I'm not suggesting you in particular did) I imagine to be wholly inaccurate of the reality of digital household viewing habits. Not that it matters in any case - a substantial majority of licence payers are still watching on analogue.
As byte has noted, the incentive of widescreen broadcasts is not needed as it is increasingly difficult to get hold of large, principal household 4:3 sets - the market alone is providing the impetus for widescreen. In any event, RTÉ's otherwise station-wide 16:9 policy is already in place, which I welcome, and provides incentive in itself for the purchase of such sets.

DMC

No offence intended with the troll remarks, yer made of sturdy stuff, and won't resort to Chuck Norris quotes. And nor will I.

Thinking back, Greg Dyke hated the thought that the BBC, the innovator it once was, wasnt to the fore of digital TV. Carlton/Granada and especially Sky with the Tories, set about the legislation. All the while, John Birt was getting BBC producers to comepete against each other. :rolleyes:

It was he (Dyke, not Birt!) that helped Freeview rise from the ashes of Johnny Vegas and a glove puppet. It was he who saw the light, that satellite does not equal BSkyB.

But only an organisation of the power of the BBC, and good leadership, could do that. RTÉ couldn't command that. We are always following what the Brits do, and always at a painfully slow pace.

So back to our topic. Widescreen.

I think that Channel 4 News is still in 4:3, because ITN still isn't doing pukka 16:9, even for ITV. I remember seeing 14:9 on an ITV news bulletin on UTV (analogue), but it did look like 4:3 cropped in the gallery rather than proper widescreen transmission.

As for the other bits, gotta agree to disagree now.

Telefís

DMC wrote:

I think that Channel 4 News is still in 4:3, because ITN still isn't doing pukka 16:9, even for ITV. I remember seeing 14:9 on an ITV news bulletin on UTV (analogue), but it did look like 4:3 cropped in the gallery rather than proper widescreen transmission.

Quite correct - something I only remembered 15 minutes ago as being mentioned before, and so I just checked it out . There's estimates of it costing £50 million to convert all of ITN over. They're doing it gradually instead.
Goes to show though - the biggest news organisation in the UK outside of the BBC is not pushed to switch over to widescreen (even if it is only the penny-pinchers that are holding last word on it). And this in spite of all of its major host channel ITV being widescreen.
They can operate dual-aspect - so can RTÉ.

Mossy Monk

Telef&#237 wrote: »

are you currently offended by RTÉ News in 4:3?, are you offended by Ch 4 news in 4:3?

not at all. if they choose to broadcast them in 4:3 then so be it, but i still do not understand why a percentage of license payers shouldnt be allowed to enjoy widescreen home made programming. perhaps RTÉ should output a 4:3 signal to analogue viewers, that would make sense

JohnC.

How does movie purchasing work? Do TV stations have an option between WS and 4:3 when buying, or are they just given WS and it is up to them if they want to crop it to 4:3? It's just that I can't help but notice that RTÉ and TV3 still show some movies in 4:3. I really don't think that should be happening on stations claiming to be WS when the movies are available in WS.

watty

The studios sell edited for TV versions. Even in 4:3 these may not have same content as VHS. (i.e. swearing edited out, less or no nudity. Some films can be a shock when even buying the VHS version compared with TV)

TV has always shown a small proportion in OAR (letterboxed to Original Aspect Ratio). IMO they should have always letterboxed most of it.

Your Digibox etc in 4:3 crop mode really crops. The studio editor can pan and or zoom or even open the "matte" to increase vertical area to get bits not in the Cinema print.

Note NO film for cinema is printed at 16:9 (1.78:1). many are 1.85:1 (a little wider). Quite a few are 2.35:1, some older ones esp. by Stanley Kubrick are framed to 1.66:1 which is a pleasing shape to eye. but not as wide as 16:9 but wider than 4:3 (12:9).

Old films are Academy Format, which is like 35mm camera so called "half frame" (normal 35mm stills are taken at right angles to cinema frames and thus are larger), this is not actually 4:3 either but close enough that the crop does not really injure the material.

But Pan & Scan to 4:3, or worse set top box Crop to 4:3 is butchery of the original artistry.

Not such a problem for 16:9 made for TV as this is all shot with a 4:3 viewing safe area frame anyway! Made for TV 16:9 is mostly such a waste.

So my Digibox for the 4:3 only TV is set to Letterbox. Fine for 4:3 material and I get all of the image, albeit reduced vertical resolution for 16:9 animorphic material.

I think there is a new Butchery where I have seen wider than 16:9 films cropped to 16:9 after the credits. You see the letterboxing during credits. A major hype of TV WS was now in stead of Pan &Scan butcherd films we would get the films as the director / Editor intended. Well seemingly only for 1.85:1 productions... (when cropped to 16:9 you only lose a little of the sides)

Scobie

watty wrote:

So my Digibox for the 4:3 only TV is set to Letterbox. Fine for 4:3 material and I get all of the image, albeit reduced vertical resolution for 16:9 animorphic material

A nice solution.

Getting back to the original subject, I think we are all agreed that 4:3 to 16:9pseudo conversion is generally a bad idea. But I have seen some w/s programmes where 4:3 archive inserts actually work. This would be down to the VT editor and how he achieves the effect. It has to be done on a scene by scene basis and is therefore very time consuming and costly.

marksi

It's no more difficult to do 4:3 inserts in a programme than any other shape. The problem is that if you are transmitting the programme as 14:9 on analogue and have 4:3 material in it there will be black all round the image therefore looking like a mistake.